Why the vendetta against Archwing?

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

You get knocked out of them in open worlds, their values are horrific in railjack, you cannot use archmelee outside of archwing, and DE wants to get rid of the individual archwings all together and make a modular system for no reason i can understand.

 

Do these people not know how fun archwing can be? How awesome elytron can be fully modded? It seems to me THATS the problem.. no reasons to DO archwing in the first place so no one invests in it..

Can we just get more support for archwing USE before we destroy/alter what we already have? Get rid of the instant AW loss and value nerfs. Make spaceframe a legitimate alternative choice where its avilable.

[Brynslustafir]

It launched in a state that could be charitably called "lacking" compared to the the base game, and even though it's seen improvements it still feels janky. There isn't really much practical incentive to use it besides mastery fodder, rapid movement in open-worlds and occasionally in Railjack missions. 

Since it was never really fleshed out or incentivized enough people kinda just ignore it until it's necessary. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Brynslustafir

[Lost_Cartographer]

I feel a lot of people do enjoy railjack, it's just that a lot of people that don't like it tend to be very vocal about it.  I have plenty of reason to belief the hate stems from them being less god-tier than warframe META builds.  You can't hit a button in archwing and watch things fade from existence, you actually have to move the mouse with a modicum of capability, hit your movement keys, etc.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Lost_Cartographer

[kgabor]

I'm not a fan of Nerfwing/Archgimp either and i'm actually starting to think they make it worse on purpose only so that people would talk about the game mode for a while for a brief boost in its popularity, lol.

I like normal archwing, too bad there's almost no content for it, like at least one Archwing Survival mission at higher levels.

Maybe Archwing Sorties that would be completely separate from normal Sorties and would reward Archwing skins, rare AW mods as an one time reward you couldn't get any more times than once, rivens etc..

Rotation rewards for AW mode could include pre-built Forma.

I want to forget the abomination that is Failjack Archwing.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

 their values are horrific in railjack, 

 

Do these people not know how fun archwing can be?

Not many understand how damage and Archwing work in Railjack.

Pheadra at 40% status can completely drain a Veil crewship with one clip. It will destroy anything in the Veil wayyyyyy faster than any turret and without the cooldown.  In Railjack,  puncture = corrosive and the procs go past 10 stacks.

Amesha is the only real usable archwing especially when you get to the Veil. All of the abilities work.  Other archwings are not scaled to railjack. The other archwings' abilities don't work well. They don't track well against the fast moving attack crafts and the ranges are pitiful.

The only real benefits the railjack has is avionics and forward artillery. Being able to group up enemies and one shot unshielded Crewships from the outside. 

But Amesha slow + Pheadra with Sabot is crazy powerful. If crewship reactor is unshielded you can destory it with archgun from where you land as soon as you board crewship. 

3 players can archwing (amesha) a Veil mission faster than trying to use railjack and forge.

But for Earth and Saturn, avionics can decimate 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[DroopingPuppy]

Archwing was already a fail, then it was revived by open world as a mandatory transport, and their gun is vaporized by railjack update. I can't believe why they add projectile speed to all archwing weapons, that is bad already.

[Prexades]

Archwing and Railjack have the similar problem that they offer a completely separate progression from the main game. Some players can't handle that they have to build and equip the RJ and unlock intrinsics to be anywhere near their non-RJ power levels. Same with Archwing, it has its own progression. Both also suffer from very limited amount of content. By the time you have a well equipped AW or RJ you have also exhausted the content available to these modes.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

and DE wants to get rid of the individual archwings all together and make a modular system for no reason i can understand.

The short answer is because they want to

The long answer will involve putting words in their mouth, but I want to take a look at some context clues. How Archwing has averaged about one update a year. How Archwing literally did not factor into Railjack balancing on launch (players discovered that Archguns outdamaged every RJ weapon option; the devs responded with a blanket 90% damage nerf that lasted until RJ Revisited). Modular weapons are usually just set and forget by the devs, only once have they ever added extra options to an existing set after launch (adding 444 Amps to Onko's shop). The lack of Itzal, Elytron, and Amesha primes

I think Modular Archwing is an excuse for the devs to stop caring about releasing new Archwings. We never got new Kitguns after Fortuna, we never got new Zaws after Plains (if you count Plains and Plague Star as one event, which I do). And now we never get new Archwings

But again, that's only if i put words in their mouths instead of asking them

[MouadSaqui]

1 hour ago, Brynslustafir said:

It launched in a state that could be charitably called "lacking" compared to the the base game

Euuuuum, Railjack ? for example ? I see a trend here ^^

[vanaukas]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

You get knocked out of them in open worlds, their values are horrific in railjack, you cannot use archmelee outside of archwing, and DE wants to get rid of the individual archwings all together and make a modular system for no reason i can understand.

Then why I destory things with my veritux prisma in veil proxima? lol

I'm glad about the modular things, gives more options to customize what your eally want about your setups besides mods. In fact, mods are a literal modular system by itself. this adds just another layer of customization, something I think is key in this experience (even fashion frame is important for players for that sole reason). I wish focus schools were modular too.

[TARINunit9]

17 minutes ago, MouadSaqui said:

Euuuuum, Railjack ? for example ? I see a trend here ^^

Indeed, but the Railjack Update actually happened, unlike Archwing all those fateful years ago

[akots]

Archwing does not have a very player-friendly design and while all of current AWs are fully functional, they all require considerable investment of forma, rare/expensive mods and time. Couple this with lack of proper affinity sharing, lack of reasonable vacuum for loot acquisition, lack of missions and their diversity and mostly, a very bad design decision of certain actual AW missions in game. IDK who at DE had this "bright" idea of cramping fast-moving space combat vehicles into tiny corridors in a number of maps, creating additional bumps to hinder the movement and trying to gimp any advantage AW has into some trolling exercise. While it is eventually manageable, it requires a lot of investment from the player and looks like a bit too much of a trolling from DE. All these "Salacia-type" (I'm not even talking about something like Kepler) map should have been Railjack-style from the very start. Currently, AW controls are reasonable and manageable but some previous iterations were completely awful. Numerous rendering issues and freely and more or less randomly moving camera angels create a sense of disorientation and even nausea/dizziness for some players which did not contribute to AW popularity in a positive way. Right now, it is sort of OK-ish and handles very well in RJ. Recent stats adjustments made all AW useable in RJ if desired. Surely, you can kill everything with your munitions vortex, aka, Saryn/Mesa meta of RJ, but if you want, you can very efficiently battle it out with Elytron or Odonata-P. Itzal is very good for looting due to Cosmic crush and generally faster movement. There is less need for Amesha imho in the live version as well.

Edited May 20, 2020 by akots

[Methanoid]

archwing have evolved into a simple taxi service, whil;e they can be used to shoot things/etc, you can also opt to not bother and keep using them as a taxi service, railjack certainly did not help matter, they remain a taxi service, yeah i see people using their archwing to go chase/gun stuff down, but lets be real, unless the railjack armaments are 100% pure grade garbage then a taxi service is all the archwing will remain to be.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

If archwings in railjack worked more like a gundam it would be better.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

4 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Do these people not know how fun archwing can be?

there's a lot of words I'd associate with Archwing: "fun" is not among them:

- regarding the actual Archwing missions themselves, the maps are terrible (boring free space Grineer or constantly crashing into walls Corpus? hmm..). then they doubled down on the bad with Archwing Defense - yes, that was actually a thing, and it was so bad DE eventually pulled it from the game, that alone should tell you something - and the Rush mode which is just broken. 

- the control scheme has been garbage with every rework. remapping is an option, but it shouldn't be a solution.

- Archwings and Arch-weapons still only have basic mods, making high level play (on the rare occasions of anything at those levels being Archwing anyway) extremely tedious: there are regular weapons that surpass the Arch-guns because of this, even though Arch-guns are supposed to give heavier overall firepower. Arch-melee is even worse, it's boring at best and disorienting at worst, and the targeting is terrible.

- Archwings are nothing more than fast-travel in Open Worlds, a single impact knocks you out of them and their powers are too weak to have any real effect on enemies: Why does the Elytron's Warhead - a LITERAL NUKE - do so little damage? it's not because of balance: many warframes can rinse open world enemeis with ease, why shouldn't we be allowed to do the same with our Archwings?

- Archwing is further enforced as a taxi service in railjack, as it's only ever used for getting between objectievs faster, and for picking up loot drops that the pilot misses: that's it. the only time they play a vital combat role is if the host foolishly broguht a default or weak Railjack to a high level mission where their ship gets rekt every time it's shot at.

please tell me where you found this "fun" you speak of", because I'm convinced it doesn't exist, and I'm not the only one. I don't think the Modular system will be the great overhaul we so desperately need, but at this point I'll try anything; if it works then great, I can actually enjoy Archwing for what it is, rather than just using it for transport. if not, well, it won't come as a surprise, let me tell you. I'll get parts, make my "dream" Archwing and see where we go from there.

 

 

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

Not many understand how damage and Archwing work in Railjack.

Pheadra at 40% status can completely drain a Veil crewship with one clip. It will destroy anything in the Veil wayyyyyy faster than any turret and without the cooldown.  In Railjack,  puncture = corrosive and the procs go past 10 stacks.

Amesha is the only real usable archwing especially when you get to the Veil. All of the abilities work.  Other archwings are not scaled to railjack. The other archwings' abilities don't work well. They don't track well against the fast moving attack crafts and the ranges are pitiful.

The only real benefits the railjack has is avionics and forward artillery. Being able to group up enemies and one shot unshielded Crewships from the outside. 

But Amesha slow + Pheadra with Sabot is crazy powerful. If crewship reactor is unshielded you can destory it with archgun from where you land as soon as you board crewship. 

3 players can archwing (amesha) a Veil mission faster than trying to use railjack and forge.

But for Earth and Saturn, avionics can decimate 

 

 

Depends on the veil mission giant point for example can likely be cleared faster with a well organised RJ team.

[844448]

Because people don't bother to actually play until they have to do Jordas for Atlas which I already wipe in less than 3 minutes with my fully upgraded grattler and odonata prime

[FadeToNull]

I don't mess with RJ so can't speak to that, but for open world content Archwings are great. Love them, particularly Itzal.

I liked the old control scheme , back when it had inertia. It was really cool that you could do rolls and loops. Sad that they removed that. Oh well. The present controls get the job done.

At any rate, it's fun tearing across the map at 600 kts, 50 ft AGL. That's what video games are for. Also, they're practical for open world. They solve more problems than just "taxi service." I'm surprised more players don't use them.

[(PSN)lumen2ne1]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

3 players can archwing (amesha) a Veil mission faster than trying to use railjack and forge.

Is your railjack properly built and optimized? I can speedrun veil runs without ever getting out of the ship, destroying fighters in hordes in a couple of seconds and 1shoting crewships with forward artillery (removing their shields quickly with a single ordnance missile first) and not having to use the forge at all until the end of the mission to recharge before I load next one. If i recruit someone to sit on the artillery cannon the entire game I can just speedrun veil missions in like 3 minutes or so. Having a 3rd players on the forge is optional and saves like 20 seconds at the end of a mission.

[Obviousclone]

I think archwing (and railjack) is a lot of fun but the big issue is there's a big grind hill to climb before you can get to the fun stuff (railjack kind of also suffers from this issue of being only fun once you've grown in power). The first reveal when you do the quest is epic, but players naturally don't get much opportunities throughout the star chart to improve their archwings power.

I don't think the first step to the actual solution to archwing as a gamemode being unpopular is to change the archwing themselves (or rework them) but to instead, add more archwing related mission nodes and mission content to get people to power up their archwings so they can actually appreciate and enjoy archwings.

Right now out of the 232 playable star chart nodes there are a whole 9 dedicated archwing missions.

In fact, here's a picture of the list:

This list doesn't include the two open worlds which you could argue are archwing missions, but most people tend to only use archwings as vehicles to move between objectives. And technically you could play archwing in railjack; but right now with how powerful battle avionics in railjack are, it's extremely slow and inefficient (and most people that use archwing for railjack have kitted archwings and don't need advancement). And the list also doesn't include sharkwing, which from my own experience, isn't really a consistent archwing experience; often times the submersible part doesn't even happen in the mission and it's just an opening tileroom. And the fortress while requiring an archwing obviously has zero actual archwing gameplay (just an extraction tile). 

 

But my main point is, archwing is a very small content island on the starchart. Most players naturally ignore archwing because there's very little reason to go back to replay them and of the ones that have meaning (star chart completion progress), there's an extremely small amount of them.

Which results in new players making it to the jordas golem assassinate for the first time; they are of course, horribly underlevelled for the archwing part and have a horrible experience for 20 minutes whittling at the boss (or otherwise ragequitting out). Chances are extremely high that they have done at most 10 archwing missions up to this point. Probably less if they didn't clear out those listed archwing missions that are optional branches in the starchart. At best, maybe they tried chasing after limbo in his quest before moving onto the jordas golem and spent a few runs doing the archwing intercept on their own.

What I think should be done to improve this, would be to add way more archwing nodes to the game (like an extremely large amount, enough for star chart clearing players to pace their archwing growth with their actual warframes growth), letting a bunch of these nodes be re-playable in gamemodes like fissures, syndicate missions, etc. (and obviously have these gamemodes would be extra bonus archwing nodes, for example they wouldn't replace one of the 3 syndicate dailies).

Right now the endgame replayability to archwing is just Salacia, Neptune mobile defence which is just a levelling node. You don't feel any obligations to ever comeback and play more once you've used it to max level your archwing. You don't have any pressure like to really improve the archwing once you've conquered Salacia. And gear progression is largely gated to syndicates and clantech rather than from playing. People don't reach the fun parts of archwing because the game itself doesn't really give them the space to grow strong to enjoy it.

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The short answer is because they want to

The long answer will involve putting words in their mouth, but I want to take a look at some context clues. How Archwing has averaged about one update a year. How Archwing literally did not factor into Railjack balancing on launch (players discovered that Archguns outdamaged every RJ weapon option; the devs responded with a blanket 90% damage nerf that lasted until RJ Revisited). Modular weapons are usually just set and forget by the devs, only once have they ever added extra options to an existing set after launch (adding 444 Amps to Onko's shop). The lack of Itzal, Elytron, and Amesha primes

I think Modular Archwing is an excuse for the devs to stop caring about releasing new Archwings. We never got new Kitguns after Fortuna, we never got new Zaws after Plains (if you count Plains and Plague Star as one event, which I do). And now we never get new Archwings

But again, that's only if i put words in their mouths instead of asking them

Didn't Hok get a couple of new strikes? I would swear he didn't originally have the nikana and heavy blade ones.

[TARINunit9]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

Didn't Hok get a couple of new strikes? I would swear he didn't originally have the nikana and heavy blade ones.

Lemme check the wiki...

OK plains of Eidolon added October 2017, Sepfahn Strike added... April 2018

OK yes you are correct

[Zandermanith222]

I know the constant anti-air properties enemies have on Archwing in Open Worlds is a relic of when DE was afraid of players just staying in Archwing the entire time and turning it into a "Helicopter simulator". That never came to be, not just because of the anti-air, but also because Archwing abilities aren't capable of scaling to the beefier stats of regular land enemies.

Now since you can just reactivate Archwing immediately after being popped out, those anti-air mechanics are just a languishing remnant of the past and a minor nuisance.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Zandermanith222

[HoustonDragon]

17 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

You get knocked out of them in open worlds, their values are horrific in railjack, you cannot use archmelee outside of archwing, and DE wants to get rid of the individual archwings all together and make a modular system for no reason i can understand.

The constant knocking out of the air in open worlds is especially annoying, even if you're running Amysha's shields. That really needs to be fixed, imo.

 

Personally, I love the Archwing stuff, and am happy with the fixes that were done for the Railjack missions. Archmelee is stil extremely janky, unfortunately. I'd like them to get rid of the swing/swoop animation and just let you zip around mowing stuff down. The targeting is too annoying versus just blasting it with the Archgun.

 

Also, I'm just about done with the Solaris Unlimited rep grind, and working towards the Profit Taker mission. It's a little annoying that you can't even bother being able to use the Gravimag stuff until then.

[Traumtulpe]

16 hours ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

3 players can archwing (amesha) a Veil mission faster than trying to use railjack and forge.

No. If your Railjack is geared you don't use the forge during missions, you kill fighters with AoE and oneshot crewships.

13 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

Archwings are nothing more than fast-travel in Open Worlds, a single impact knocks you out of them and their powers are too weak to have any real effect on enemies

You should try Amesha, its better than a Warframe. Infinite energy, all enemies are permanently slowed to a crawl, you are permanently invincible and can make objectives permanently invicible too, and you can drop a bunch of bullet absorbing energy fields that last over a minute (they also block rockets).