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Hard Mode: Will this become another abandoned "content island?"


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14 hours ago, nslay said:

Worse, Hard Mode may become the norm with the normal star chart missions being the abandoned content. The poor new players will essentially be isolated from the experienced players who will prefer the Hard Mode.

Such is what happens in D3... Blizzard adds a higher Torment? Everyone migrates to the highest Torment. I think it's up to T16 now. So let's see... Normal, Hard, Expert, Master, T1-T16... so that's 20 difficulty for D3. Guess what the majority of the experienced players play? You guessed it... T16! Who plays the other 19 difficulties? New players! And they come to the D3 forums and post in confusion about never encountering any other players!

So let's hope Warframe stops at Hard Mode because D3 started with 4 difficulties. Then that became 10 difficulties.... then 14 difficulties, then 17 difficulties and then now 20 difficulties. And that's not counting the 150 possible GR levels you can select (each their own "difficulty").

Ohhhhh, I knew it.

Its not even a prediction if its expected.

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15 hours ago, nslay said:

Worse, Hard Mode may become the norm with the normal star chart missions being the abandoned content. The poor new players will essentially be isolated from the experienced players who will prefer the Hard Mode.

Such is what happens in D3... Blizzard adds a higher Torment? Everyone migrates to the highest Torment. I think it's up to T16 now. So let's see... Normal, Hard, Expert, Master, T1-T16... so that's 20 difficulty for D3. Guess what the majority of the experienced players play? You guessed it... T16! Who plays the other 19 difficulties? New players! And they come to the D3 forums and post in confusion about never encountering any other players!

So let's hope Warframe stops at Hard Mode because D3 started with 4 difficulties. Then that became 10 difficulties.... then 14 difficulties, then 17 difficulties and then now 20 difficulties. And that's not counting the 150 possible GR levels you can select (each their own "difficulty").

And that would be a good thing, so new players can play, progress and learn on their own without veterans destroying all the gameplay and making new players feel weak and useless.

And dont exaggerate with 20 difficulties, Veterans already have zero incentive or interest to play star chart other than fissures and few farming nodes anyway. Warframe needed hardmode badly cause otherwise we simply have nothing remotely engaging to play and to use our OP gear on - which means people simply quit Warframe - its boring.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Monolake said:

And that would be a good thing, so new players can play, progress and learn on their own without veterans destroying all the gameplay and making new players feel weak and useless.

And dont exaggerate with 20 difficulties, Veterans already have zero incentive or interest to play star chart other than fissures and few farming nodes anyway. Warframe needed hardmode badly cause otherwise we simply have nothing remotely engaging to play and to use our OP gear on - which means people simply quit Warframe - its boring.

Diablo 3 has Normal, Hard, Master, Expert, T1-T16. That's not an exaggeration, that's a fact.

EDIT: By the way, can you guess why it has 20 difficulties? Power creep. Until about a year ago, it had 17 difficulties until everyone begged for more Torment levels.

Edited by nslay
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, nslay said:

Diablo 3 has Normal, Hard, Master, Expert, T1-T16. That's not an exaggeration, that's a fact.

EDIT: By the way, can you guess why it has 20 difficulties? Power creep. Until about a year ago, it had 17 difficulties until everyone begged for more Torment levels.

It's exaggeration in regards to Warframe. And yeah DE has powecreep'ed WF into a dead end but everyone hates nerfs - so the only way forward is harder enemies.

Edited by Monolake
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Just now, Monolake said:

It's exaggeration in regards to Warframe. And yeah DE has powecreep'ed WF into a dead end but everyone hates nerf - so the only way forward is harder enemies.

Right. I get that. But what I'm trying to say is that adding more difficulties divides the player base. The more difficulties there are, the more remote newer players are from the rest of the players. Luckily it will just be Normal/Hard. But I emphasize new players because we want Warframe to grow. But if new players are less likely to encounter other players, that will give them the wrong impression about Warframe (like it does in Diablo 3).

Now the consequences of even more difficulties is worse. In Diablo 3, not only do you have all players in T16, but you have newer players in a mixture of the first 19 difficulties! It's nuts!

There are other consequences to adding more difficulties. The meta becomes more mandatory (so those novel weapons even with nice Rivens will probably not work) and DE will be more compelled to buff gear and abilities... this is how Diablo 3 ended up with 20 difficulties! Blizzard adds difficulties. Players ask for buffs to do the harder difficulties. Blizzard buffs gears/abilities and then players complain that the game is too easy. So Blizzard adds more difficulties... and this cycle continues.

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Posted (edited)

I'm just concerned that it will further split the community. The veterans over there and the newbies over there and people just trying to get quick dailies done over there.  When I was a newer newbie than I am now, it was nice seeing some MR 20+ people frequently so I could see what I could build towards.

Edited by Wearbe
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18 minutes ago, Wearbe said:

I'm just concerned that it will further split the community. The veterans over there and the newbies over there and people just trying to get quick dailies done over there.  When I was a newer newbie than I am now, it was nice seeing some MR 20+ people frequently so I could see what I could build towards.

Right. It's the same here. When I was new I'd see high MR players too.

Not at every node, but dark sectors, certain planets (Ceres, Saturn), and certain types of nodes.

Are void fissures divided by difficulty too? I probably encountered high MR players most frequently in void fissure missions!

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Likely.  Anytime DE adds something new in that might be difficult it's immediately said as "not end game" content and is instead meant to be just another type of "content" to bang out and then ditch.  DE HAS to know that the average player isn't clammering for harder content.  Even vets like myself played casually.  So I really don't see the harm in actually giving content that appeals to that small group of players.  Arbitrations, orbs/eidalons, sanctuary onslaught, and now steel path.  All potential end game content for those die hard optimal build players that DE has made inclusionary so people don't feel left out.

The rewards need to be there.  It's not like if radiant relic farming was made easier on one specific node that suddenly farming for relics in normal mode would be abandoned.  Because as I said the vast majority of players who play WF do not meet the massive gear check that is required to effectively breeze through hardmode to make it a worthwhile farm from a time perspective.

 

I'm not too particularly keen on how the difficulty is setup either.  The EHP levels for fodder enemies is quite insane.  I love the idea that hardmode makes your builds and what gear you bring actually matter.  But I think there must be some sort of balance they can strike where the pool of viable gear/frames isn't as small as it is currently.  Some missions also clearly don't work with just this upscale.  So that needs looking after.  Overall it seems like a cool idea considering it's essentially just a difficulty switch.  But they need to actually polish and tune it.  lest it becomes yet another abandoned piece of content that further gives the finger to veterans who want their time to be respected.

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Posted (edited)

Eh, no worries I suppose. In the end the way this is set up for the moment the more you have progressed, the smaller your star chart becomes. Progress sufficiently and all there is left is Arbitrations (endo), ESO (focus+leveling), affinity farm after forma (so hydron/helene/eso), opening relics, sorties and kuva. This is roughly in order of first to become obsolete to last.

All new content, after getting the one-off rewards, in order to stay relevant needs to compete with these, the best places to get endo, focus, affinity, rivens, kuva, and of course opening relics. Steel Path might offer a good affinty farm, but currently that's all that is in the cards.

One might question the wisdom of having created these places which offer an order of magnitude more of their respective rewards than any other source, or in the case of opening relics and rivens even an exclusive way (slivers really don't count), but it is what it is. And lets face it, that is where you will end up, that 'exclusive' content, where are that is left is which is vaguely meaningful is cracking eggs and getting the coin, aka kuva, to put into the riven jackpot.

So yes, while Steel Path will provide a temporary, yes, even welcome diversion, it will not split the player base. 

Getting endo, affintiy, focus, opening relics and getting kuva in decent amounts, read, at vaguely the same rate,not even better, as the current farm spots would be nice. Getting an extra 10 drops and rushing to extraction, seeing where a stupid thing points its tendril and zapping a cloud or doing a survival or disruption in a frankly annoying tileset is not exactly awesome content after having done it a bazillion times.

Sure, some people are asking for more powercreep or even faster farms. Meh, don't think that is necessary. But those who'd like to have more options for getting the aforementioned resources, plus opening relics,at approximately the same rate as the current farm spots, not faster, just more variety, well, those people have a point. Steel Path might be a start of providing this variety, so do not begrudge those who ask for more of those type of rewards, or accuse them of saying 'you only care for rewards, it is about the fun'.

Why not both?

Edited by Angwah
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For me personally I'd love to see hard mode integrated into more systems in the game, like relic missions, Kuva Liches, Syndicate missions, sorties (maybe?), Kuva Siphons, even, weekly alerts (maybe?). I mean, personally, I dont really care about the rewards (not that ill say no to good ones), but the most important reason for me to play hard mode is the challenge. I only play Kuva lich missions, and always make my Lich reach max rank to fight lvl 100+ enemies... And im not even a fan of meta builds, i mostly use equipment that i enjoy using. Its about the feelings, not so much about the numbers, for me at least. And im having a blast while doing it ^^

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On 2020-05-19 at 6:59 PM, HelmetTooTight said:

Hard mode as presented in its current "state" is just an elite version of the star chart with boosted enemy levels. If the rewards are lacking, I believe it will devolve into the current star chart's state: a one time completionist thing. Furthermore, this may not be the endgame content some are looking for, because your weapons and abilities will casually rip through a level 100 enemy with no problem either.

I've seen a lot of threads suggesting new mechanics to make hard mode "hard," but I don't think DE needs to reinvent the wheel. Nightmare mode is not "hard" because the levels are low, yes, but the modifiers are usually also not threatening enough. So I'll suggest this: why not allow players to enable more and more modifiers (more risk) for more rewards? Ideally, hard mode in my opinion would be something more like several rotating alerts (depending on which mode you want to play) every 15-30 minutes, with rewards being some "Elite token" or something you can trade in for rewards. More modifiers = more tokens. For any Halo players out there, basically the idea of skulls.

As I said, there are already modifiers in Warframe that can make it more difficult; I'll just pull them from existing Sortie/Nightmare modifiers for those not familiar.

  • Augmented Enemy Armor
  • Augmented Enemy Shields
  • Cryogenic Leakage (Half shields)
  • No shields
  • Fog
  • Electromagnetic Anomalies/Low gravity
  • Enemy Physical Enhancement (They take less physical damage and deal more of it)
  • Enemy Elemental Enhancement (They take less elemental damage and deal more of it)
  • Energy Reduction (Reduced energy pool and energy regen)
  • Energy Drain
  • Eximus Stronghold (More eximus units)
  • Extreme Cold (Slower movement e.g. bullet jumps, sprinting, rolling, reloading etc.)
  • Fire (Half health/reduced health regen)
  • Vampire mode (health drain, killing restores)
  • One weapon only (e.g. rifle, melee, secondary, etc.)
  • Death detonation
  • Timer (kills add time)

One of these modifiers by itself is probably not much to worry about, but when you start stacking them, you'll have reduced/draining health, shields, energy, damage, etc. The only thing that needs to be nerfed prematurely is spoiler mode and maybe Inaros, and then you'll have a challenge on hand. Most of these modifiers should only affect you, so if you go to matchmaking (pub) with all the modifiers on, you might still be matched with someone who only has like 1 or 2 enabled (with exception to some of the environmental modifiers). More modifiers can be introduced based on mechanics already in the game (e.g. Alarms make for more heavy unit spawns).

I personally only play Sorties/Kuva Floods because they are the closest thing I can get to "endgame content" without having to run an endless mission. They also don't feel repetitive because the nodes/modes for them are constantly changing. Hard mode can harness this same diversity, while actually introducing the challenging aspect some players are looking for. Thanks for reading! Let me know what y'all think.

 

TL;DR: Allow players to stack existing Warframe difficulty modifiers from Sortie/Nightmare in "Hard mode" to create more challenge as a high risk, high reward scenario. Rewards are some kind of tokens (similar to Scarlet Spear credits, idk about rewards).

I would love if i could pick what modifiers i wanted, with the insane option to stack them all for fun.

Seems like fun honestly.

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