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Saryn's new Revealing Spores augment need some changes.

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So, Saryn got a new augment (Revealing Spores) and I have to say it's really bad for a few reasons :

  • Saryn already see the damage number from Spore, through walls which mean the base power already act as a radar, and this without limited range.
  • The effect doesn't work on allies, which mean it's not only useless for Saryn (because she already see enemies through walls), but it's only useless for her allies.
  • The mod is an augment for Spore, which mean it cannot be used with Venom Dose which one of Saryn's best augment. So even as an exilus, it's not a good choice.

To summarize, the mod provide a weaker version of what Spore damage numbers already provide, at the cost of a mod slot AND impossible use of Venom Dose.


Fortunately, I think it's easy to fix with a variation that provide the same kind of benefit and open some kind of support playstyle to Saryn. Here are the changes I would do :

Saryn - Spore - Revealing Spores
Infected enemies within 25m will show through walls for Saryn and her allies. (Similarily to Void Hunter)

With these changes, the mod would be more interesting to identify enemies type through their body shape as long as being a useful tool for teamplay. The mod may sounds a bit strong, but it prevent the use of Venom Dose which greatly reduce the fire power of Saryn.
Also reduced the effect range from 40m to 25m for balance since it scale with range and could be too strong without much investement in range mods.

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Posted (edited)

The mod is so bad, it really makes me sad. We already see any enemy within 33m range from Primed Animal Instinct, so you have the choice between:

  1. Any radar mod for 63m enemy radar unconditional.
  2. The augment for 40m enemy radar conditional.

Plus it wants to compete with Venom Dose, lol.

DE, please. Here is what you do:

  1. Delete this augment from the game.
  2. Rework the other useless Saryn augment, Contagion Cloud. It could, for example, restore energy when popping spores (a functionality which you removed from Toxic Lash at some point in the past).

What are you even thinking sometimes, nobody who plays the game could possibly think this augment had any value whatsoever...

Edited by Traumtulpe
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Posted (edited)

This augment is another prime example for why augments should have their seperate system. I personally would lean towards something like the Diablo 3 rune system. Because then this augment and all the other bad ones would be okay or could be actually good due to synergy with other augments without having to compete with actual mods.

I really don't envy the person who had to code it in knowing how bad it was - or at least I hope they knew.

Like, I just came from the bathroom before posting and thought: "why not a spore augment that turns her corrosive status effect per tick into cold status effect per tick?" to inspire a new playstyle as crowd control Saryn or "one which let's her place spores as sort of mines" and I might be wrong, but I think I came up with something more players would give a try than this - in five minutes... while reading ten year old gaming magazine... while taking a dump... 

 

Edited by (PS4)Deeceem
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Posted (edited)

So I tested it, the mod is indeed as bad as it says on the tin. However, 2 things were notable:

  1. There are tiny downwards arrowheads on the enemies when they are about a double jumps height below you. Almost a good idea, but the markers disappear entirely at a bullet jumps height.
  2. Range is weird. At 100% ability range, the radius is 40m (not stacking with other radars). At 265% range, the radius is 45m. At 34% range, the radius is 13m. Seems like 45m is simply the maximum possible for the mod.
Edited by Traumtulpe

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19 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

why not a spore augment that turns her corrosive status effect per tick into cold status effect per tick?

That actually sounds cool.

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i got an idea but maybe it kinda busted. 
Revealing spores, as the name implies, infected enemies will expose weak point which can be shoot at for additional damage like banshee sonar. 
Yeah, that's too busted on a frame that's already powerful

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Posted (edited)

I get why this mod exists, but the implementation is pretty poor.

It's clearly meant to be a sort of information tool for Spores, and not something to make Saryn stronger, as she clearly doesn't need it. What they should do though is:

  • It should have no range restriction. If an enemy is spored, it shows up on the map.
    • It should also have no height restriction like regular radars; the enemy should show up regardless of elevation (with the up/down arrow still being a thing).
  • Spored enemies should not show up as red, but a different colour, such as blue or green. This is exactly what it does, my apologies. The way people talk make it sound like it's literally enemy radar.

This gives the mod some use, as you'd be able to use the map for instant feedback and it would be easier than tracking damage numbers or the like.

Edited by (NSW)Matt-S

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Posted (edited)
35 минут назад, (NSW)Matt-S сказал:
  • Spored enemies should not show up as red, but a different colour, such as blue or green.

 

That's actually what happens, enemy show up as green arrows on the map.

Edited by Randomeer

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Posted (edited)

Revealing spores: On decay start, show enemies in a 100m radius

Instantly useful and doesnt 100% change the mod. And it's useful to keep up your spore damage

Edited by rawr1254

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On 2020-05-20 at 12:42 PM, Traumtulpe said:

That actually sounds cool.

Yeah, but how useful is that? Its not going to help kill the enemies faster, and its not like enemies can freeze while they have a cold proc ( it should be this way)

 

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Its a niche mod but its not useless at all.

1) You no longer need to run 2 slots for radar because how spore spreads not to mention that base 40 meters scales off range mods and Saryn already runs a lot of range. You can run other auras like Swift Momentum and etc

2)Those who say Primed Animal instincts exist and render this mod useless clearly never done any endurance runs. Sentinels and pets falloff after certain level of enemies and there goes your Primed Animal instinct. Unlike the Gladiator or Vigilante set, Primed Animal Instinct disappears once your sentinel or pet die off. While pets can be revived and Djinn exist, the main problem is you have to constantly revive them pets which is time consuming and Djinn needs 90s to revive. (No reawaken and Primed Regen don't stack)

3)Spores are constantly damaging enemies and spreading so your radar is up most of the time and you can track it without having loot icons clutter your mini map. Saryn doesn't see through walls and not everyone puts Show Damage numbers On in settings for performance issues or have potato for a computer or do not like it.

4)It can help newer Saryn players learn how to spread spores more efficiently.

5)Its an exilus mod and doesn't need a main slot so you can run more powerful mods in the main 8.

Its a nice quality of life mod and not mandatory to run it and you can completely ignore it like any other augments.

Its not useless or meme level like Parrying Angle.

Is it useless? Nope

Can it be better? Yes

Does Saryn need it? Nope. Saryn already too powerful as she is. She already renders 75% or the content redundant.

Making a more powerful augment = augment nerfed to the ground or Saryn gets nerfed to the ground and needs augments to function.

Edited by MadMattPrime
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On 2020-05-20 at 10:24 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Range is weird. At 100% ability range, the radius is 40m (not stacking with other radars). At 265% range, the radius is 45m. At 34% range, the radius is 13m. Seems like 45m is simply the maximum possible for the mod.

?

L3E0Swk.jpg

(Sorry for the lack of pixels, my PC's on a diet. That's 260% range and 104m radius.)

I'm assuming you mean that it doesn't actually have as much range ingame as the popup says?
Could be, haven't measured or tested.

Edited by Chroia

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Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

1) You no longer need to run 2 slots for radar because how spore spreads not to mention that base 40 meters scales off range mods and Saryn already runs a lot of range. You can run other auras like Swift Momentum and etc

No longer need 2 slots of radar ? Who needs that ?
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

2)Those who say Primed Animal instincts exist and render this mod useless clearly never done any endurance runs. Sentinels and pets falloff after certain level of enemies and there goes your Primed Animal instinct. Unlike the Gladiator or Vigilante set, Primed Animal Instinct disappears once your sentinel or pet die off. While pets can be revived and Djinn exist, the main problem is you have to constantly revive them pets which is time consuming and Djinn needs 90s to revive. (No reawaken and Primed Regen don't stack)

If you play an endurance run with Saryn, you should have some survivability which transfer over your pet (if it's not a sentinel), so with Leader Pack on your pet has no reason to die.
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

3)Spores are constantly damaging enemies and spreading so your radar is up most of the time and you can track it without having loot icons clutter your mini map.

Spore are spreading only if you hit infected targets, which mean they can't spread further if you can't hit enemies without having vision on said enemy. Regular radar has no condition and has a (big) fixed range, which is more valuable in this situation.
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

Saryn doesn't see through walls and not everyone puts Show Damage numbers On in settings for performance issues or have potato for a computer or do not like it.

Ok, so using a mod to bandaid fix a turned off option sounds ok for you ? For me it show even more how trash this mod is...
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

4)It can help newer Saryn players learn how to spread spores more efficiently.

Well, it's half true since you can already do it through the visible damage number across walls. Unless you haven't turned off damage numbers for "performances".
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

5)Its an exilus mod and doesn't need a main slot so you can run more powerful mods in the main 8.

It doesn't need the a main slot, but it prevent the use of Venom Dose (which you definitely want in endurance run) and other useful exilus, for a completely non-existant function.
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

Its a nice quality of life mod and not mandatory to run it and you can completely ignore it like any other augments.

You can completely ignore it, sure, but it's not a good thing to add new mods that have no use.
Would you say "just ignore it" if they add a mod that add +10% impact at max rank ? Of course you won't, it would be a mod that has no reason to exist and would need to be fixed.
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

Its not useless or meme level like Parrying Angle.

Parry angle (which doesn't exist in the game actually) would be one of the best stat in the game, if used smartly. Don't see how it's "meme level"...
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

Is it useless? Nope

Kind of.
 

Le 02/06/2020 à 12:45, MadMattPrime a dit :

 

Does Saryn need it? Nope. Saryn already too powerful as she is. She already renders 75% or the content redundant.

Making a more powerful augment = augment nerfed to the ground or Saryn gets nerfed to the ground and needs augments to function.

I agree she doesn't need stronger augments, but this mod has simply no use and should never have existed.
If Saryn doesn't need more augment, while giving her one that has no purpose instead of wokring on augment for other warframe that need them ? Or alternatively, why not working on augment that open different playstyles rather that being tiny niche useless potential QoL toward the already most common Saryn playsyle ?

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On 2020-05-20 at 9:41 PM, lukinu_u said:

Saryn - Spore - Revealing Spores
Infected enemies within 25m will show through walls for Saryn and her allies. (Similarily to Void Hunter)

A more apt effect for the mod's name.
That said, I personally don't see the use for xray vision in Warframe (with the exception of pairing it with punchthrough weapons like the Zenith).

Either an ability goes through walls - in which case being able to see the enemy doesn't really matter (with the possible exception of Exalted Blade, because you can aim up and down),
or the ability doesn't go through walls - in which case, what difference does your xray vision make?

Makes sense to pair with punchthrough weapons, like Exalted Blade, though.


Can you give me an example use-case for this? I can't imagine one from "being a useful tool for teamplay."

(Also, I think I recall DE removing xray vision from the Zenith and giving it the wonky head indicator because a lot of xray vision cause some kind of hardware problem?
If so, it could be a problem for your idea, but I can't source that recollection atm.)

 

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il y a une heure, Chroia a dit :

Can you give me an example use-case for this? I can't imagine one from "being a useful tool for teamplay."

Giving your allies the ability to see spored enemies through wall (aka sharing what spore already do to allies) is a huge buff and could a power on its own.
Knowing exactly where enemies are with their hitbox surrounds can be super useful, more than a simple radar, as big as it is. Here a few possible uses :

  • Landing bounce shots (with weapons that allow it) precisely.
  • Prepare to cast AoE powers that need a target to be casted like Pacify & Provoke, Energy Vampire, etc...
  • Make efficient use of punch through or explosions on weapons/powers that have some.
  • Hiding or parry depending the enemies locations if you don't have enough survivability.
  • Knowing exactly which enemies are behind a wall though their body shape.

Based on these (and possibly more), Spore would become a support ability that help the whole team determining where exactly enemies are, which give a big tactical advantage, especially on higher level when enemies damage are much stronger.

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4 hours ago, Chroia said:

I'm assuming you mean that it doesn't actually have as much range ingame as the popup says?

No, that was actually from tests in the Simulacrum (where it is indeed capped at 45m). In normal missions it does scale with range as expected.

3 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Parry angle (which doesn't exist in the game actually) would be one of the best stat in the game, if used smartly.

Pretty sure there is a mod for that. It's a weapon mod if I recall correctly.

3 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

I agree she doesn't need stronger augments, but this mod has simply no use and should never have existed.
If Saryn doesn't need more augment

But she does need more augments. There are only 2 usable ones currently, Venom Dose and Regenerative Molt - and Regenerative Molt is more of a "quality of life" mod if you don't want to heal via Arcane / melee, rather than making significant changes to her abilities.

Just give her some cool augments already. Preferably some that don't make her deal more damage.

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18 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

No longer need 2 slots of radar ? Who needs that ?

Enemy radar takes up the aura slot? Is that not a slot? Enemy sense or Vigilante mod set for the gambling man? Not everyone mods the same way as you.

 

18 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

If you play an endurance run with Saryn, you should have some survivability which transfer over your pet (if it's not a sentinel), so with Leader Pack on your pet has no reason to die.

Ah yes I revive my pet just to let it get KOed again and revive it again once the bleedout timer is nearing depletion. Leader pack is useless when your pet can't stay alive for jack because its humping the floor because of its ai.

 

18 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Spore are spreading only if you hit infected targets, which mean they can't spread further if you can't hit enemies without having vision on said enemy. Regular radar has no condition and has a (big) fixed range, which is more valuable in this situation.

Spores can be spread by team mates if your forgotten about it. The radar is still potentially larger than mods since it scales off range mods.

 

18 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Ok, so using a mod to bandaid fix a turned off option sounds ok for you ? For me it show even more how trash this mod is...

Not everyone has a high end machine and someone of us don't like numbers popping everywhere, its a matter of comfort, There is a reason why that option is there, like how those bright flashing lights in eidolon hunts can trigger seizures for some players. You play your game your way, I'll play it my way.

 

18 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Well, it's half true since you can already do it through the visible damage number across walls. Unless you haven't turned off damage numbers for "performances".

Refer to top, its a matter of comfort as well has medical issues to a small extent.

 

18 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

You can completely ignore it, sure, but it's not a good thing to add new mods that have no use.
Would you say "just ignore it" if they add a mod that add +10% impact at max rank ? Of course you won't, it would be a mod that has no reason to exist and would need to be fixed.

It is similar to players who wanted something like aviator without the automatic energy orb pick up because of potentially wasting an orb. This mod serves as a radar without having to use enemy radar, enemy sense and the vigilante mod for the gambling man.

 

18 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Parry angle (which doesn't exist in the game actually) would be one of the best stat in the game, if used smartly. Don't see how it's "meme level"...

The mods are called Reflex guard (warframe mod) and Parry something (melee mod). Before the melee changes they were actually meme worth seeing your warframe deflecting shots sometimes rockets if you're lucky and getting locked into an animation loop, hilarious yes, useful nope.

 

18 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Kind of.

Nope, its a radar that can potentially cover the map without having to run enemy radar and etc. Niche but not useless.

I'm a gambling man so I ran vigilante pursuit.

But after trying out the mod it kinds of frees up the aura slot for me to run something else like swift Momentum when running heavy attack weapons. it gives me flexibility of what aura I can run. A small decrease in Damage doesn't matter since the spores are still ticking in the background.

Its totally dependent on your playstyle. I play with my mini map opened and I like the mod. 

I could say that Grendel's augment doesn't add any increase to damage, but does it make grendel rolling around more fun and spare a few chuckles here and there because of lols, it does.

Edited by MadMattPrime
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18 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I honestly wonder why it was even a thing in the first place.

If you never actually played Saryn, you might think "She needs to attack enemies with spores, to keep spreading them without decay - so marking spored foes on the minimap must be super useful!".

In reality there are damage numbers like breadcrumbs all over the screen, leading you to spored enemies. Also anything that shows up on your enemy radar is spored anyway, so normal radar is simply superior (as it alerts you to the presence of enemies before you have active spores).

And, generally speaking, you don't need radar on Saryn at all - you don't have to search for every little enemy to shoot them, since they will just die on their own once spored.

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On 2020-05-20 at 2:21 PM, (PS4)Deeceem said:

This augment is another prime example for why augments should have their seperate system.

 

If augments had their own slot then they'ed need to actually overhaul every single mod.  As currently some are objectively staples in general gameplay since they're just defacto upgrades.  And others that are more side grades or niche in the usage department (like augments were intended to be) would need to be updated to actually be worthy contenders to said good mods.  If i'm being honest though i'd rather they just scrap the current mod system for warframes specifically and have a more traditional  rpg like tree system.  I think the modding systems in general could be overhauled.  But I don't think that will happen till the devs make more drastic changes to base gameplay.

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Knight Raime:

If augments had their own slot then they'ed need to actually overhaul every single mod.  As currently some are objectively staples in general gameplay since they're just defacto upgrades.  And others that are more side grades or niche in the usage department (like augments were intended to be) would need to be updated to actually be worthy contenders to said good mods.  If i'm being honest though i'd rather they just scrap the current mod system for warframes specifically and have a more traditional  rpg like tree system.  I think the modding systems in general could be overhauled.  But I don't think that will happen till the devs make more drastic changes to base gameplay.

I don't see a problem with what you said. I agree, it would require a lot of (re)work and that's probably the main reason not to expect it. 

The talent tree idea was something I wished intrinsics were going to be before I saw them so you could be THE engineer of a crew or THE gunner by speccing into things others didn't. Now everyone is the same. Just a little derailed thought I remembered.

 

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