Please update Spring-Loaded Blade to be as as good or better than Reach.

[TheArcSet]

Dear DE,

Please update Spring-Loaded Blade to be as as good or better than Reach.

Currently:

• It has higher drain.
• It provides less additional range than reach.
• It is very rare/time-consuming to farm.
• It is temporary.
• It's a naramon polarity.

Currently, post update, it is a super rare mod, that's functionally worse in every way to the basic Reach mod.

Thank you for your continuing efforts to improve this game.

 

Also, a bump to my now archived and not accessible in my activities tab feedback posts:

To restore Almagam_Furrax_Body_Count's intended functionality and to update Reflection/Retribution.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1174378-i-consider-this-a-bug-because-the-update-has-broken-the-mods-intended-function-amalgam-furax-body-count/?tab=comments#comment-11423854

https://forums.warframe.com/search/?q=amalgam furax body count&quick=1

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1138919-reflection-still-refers-to-channelling-a-proposal-for-an-improvement/

 

[rapt0rman]

Spring-loaded Blade can apply 2 stacks, resulting in 2m. This puts it pretty much right between Reach's 1.1m and Primed Reach's 3m.

[Yasha-7HS]

It's a Vazarin polarity. 

It's range is +2 meters at two stacks. 

It costs more than reach, but less than primed reach. 

To me, this thread is about as accurate as saying Berserker is worse than Fury. While I do accept that SLB has its issues, in the spot it is currently at it's intended to be a midway between the two without it just being Reach 2: The Reachening. 

[Tiltskillet]

My guess is  DE wouldn't be looking to increase the total amount of reach we can get between this, Primed Reach, and rivens.  (It sure doesn't seem to me like melee needs more potential range either.)

And the mod has a niche: more range stacking for people who are willing to sacrifice another slot for it.  See also things like Argon Scope and Bladed Rounds.  Rare mods that are equal or worse than their conventional counterparts, and with a condition on top.  

They're not meant to compete, they're meant to supplement.

[Andele3025]

IMO, it should be the same as Berserker in terms of worth 2.5 stacks worth of stats capped.

[TheArcSet]

On 2020-05-22 at 9:56 PM, rapt0rman said:

Spring-loaded Blade can apply 2 stacks, resulting in 2m. This puts it pretty much right between Reach's 1.1m and Primed Reach's 3m.

Ah, thanks for explaining.
I'll add that to the wiki, so others know this.
 

Still, it could still do with a bit of a buff, maybe to 3 stacks, like lots of other mods.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

People people. If we are being fair, berserker is better than primed fury when fully stacked.. why not let spring loaded blade also be better than primed reach when fully stacked.. let it stack 4 or 5 times! 

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

People people. If we are being fair, berserker is better than primed fury when fully stacked.. why not let spring loaded blade also be better than primed reach when fully stacked.. let it stack 4 or 5 times! 

Because the 2 arent truly comparable in raw stats effect other than stack value.
Berserker is a total attack speed multiplier which means depending on other modifiers it can be either better or worse than fury (as people that didnt know how to dodge roll or put on primed fury yet cried about initial ghoul slow clouds demonstrated).
SLB sadly isnt a % reach modifier that stacks after regular reach, but just more flat range (it should still stack 2.5 times like berserker tho).

[lukinu_u]

Le 22/05/2020 à 22:56, rapt0rman a dit :

Spring-loaded Blade can apply 2 stacks, resulting in 2m. This puts it pretty much right between Reach's 1.1m and Primed Reach's 3m.

It's still lower than Primed Reach, which is a big issue imo, the same issue extend to other contionnal mod where a primed variant exist to the normal mod.
Why would you use Sharpened Bullets when it's weaker than Primed Target Cracker ? Hydraulic Crosshairs instead of Primed Pistol Gambit ?

Currently, only Condtion Overload don't have this problem, but it sadly has the reverse issue where is completely make the primed version obsolete. But overall, it's much better to have the conditionnal one stronger rather than the opposite, since it encourage active gameplay rather than passive plain stat increase.

A simple fix to Spring-Loaded Blade would be the following : 
"+1.1 Range for 12s on Status Effect; Stack up to 3 times."
Nothing too strong, just sighly better than Primed Reach with 3.3m instead of 3m, and reduced duration to be a bit harder to use.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Yet it is. Range and speed are not opposed traits.

Primed fury is almost 2x better than fury.

Primed reach is nearly 3x better than normal reach.

Berserker with one stack is as good as fury.

Spring loaded blade with one stack is 0.1 worse than reach.

Maxed berserker is almost 50% better than primed fury.

Maxed spring loaded blade is 33% worse than primed reach.

 

When compring them its clear that spring loaded blade is far worse than just using primed reach. While berserker is far better than using primed fury.

SLB should cap at 3.5 range imo, having unlimited stacks to achieve that like berserker.

 

That or they should nerf Berserker to be worse than primed fury.

One of those two options is needed for balance.

Edited May 25, 2020 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[Andele3025]

14 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

SLB should cap at 3.5 range imo, having unlimited stacks to achieve that like berserker.

2.5m would be berserker like in stack value.
There is no comparison to berserker in raw stats tho because, and its insane that one has to repeat the point, berserker is a total speed multiplier and multiplies fury & co, SLB is just another reach mod.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

There is no comparison to berserker in raw stats tho because, and its insane that one has to repeat the point, berserker is a total speed multiplier and multiplies fury & co, SLB is just another reach mod.

Ok one being a % and the other flat has no bearing on how good in relative terms they are to their respective group. This isnt a compairson of one to the other, but a comparison of the relative benefit of each.

SLB is worse than Primed reach

Berserker is better than primed fury.

There in lies the issue.. holding to %vs flat is willfully ignoring that.

If for example both were flat bonuses and using a base 1.0 speed weapon

Fury = + 0.3

Primed fury = + 0.55 speed

Berserker = +0.3 to 0.75 speed

You see the issue? One is flat out better when the conditions is met. And primed fury is a login locked mod, it should be much better than it is.

Compared to the reach mods...

Reach = 1.1m

Primed reach = 3m

SLB = 1m - 2m

None of the arguements relating to speed being better or range being better or their effects on melee or the benefit of % to flat MATTER AT ALL to this discussion of if the one mod is balanced in its specific group. It is odd that it is the way it is as there is not much sense in that reguard. By the logic you have presented so far, "berserker is just another speed mod"

 

The reason i said 3.5 is because of the simple fact that relative to its group, berserker is better than the primed mod by nearly 50%. For the range counterpart to also be better than its primed counterpart it would also need to be nearly 50% better. That would actually put SLB at 4.5m reach but as it is primed reach is already such a extreme jump that that much reach feels too extreme.

If the idea is that these mods are conditionally better, then they must be better. 2.5 still means that in all cases primed reach is better..

I do not think 2.5 is enough.

Also i do not think primed fury is as good a bonus as primes reach.. but fury falls more in line with the total increase of other primed mods. On average primed mods are just under, or just over double the base effect of their normal versions. If you compare the % increase of every primed mod you find that primed reach is by the averaged standard, nearly double the normal primed bonus.

Perhaps the problem then is primed reach being too strong and it should only give 2m reach which would put it in line with the normal base bonus of primed mods. Then SLB being 2.5 would be more inline with how much possible relative benefit is garnered from the speed mods.

 

All this mess, just exposes that Primed Reach should be nerfed if you want balance between the mods. I would rather they buff SLB to be slightly better but thats just me i guess.

 

Tho.. i guess for the capacity cost..

 

2.5 would be really good. And almost double the capacity efficiency of primed reach.

Edited May 26, 2020 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[Andele3025]

10 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Ok one being a % and the other flat has no bearing on how good in relative terms they are to their respective group. This isnt a compairson of one to the other, but a comparison of the relative benefit of each.

SLB is worse than Primed reach

Berserker is better than primed fury.

There in lies the issue.. holding to %vs flat is willfully ignoring that.

If for example both were flat bonuses and using a base 1.0 speed weapon

Fury = + 0.3

Primed fury = + 0.55 speed

Berserker = +0.3 to 0.75 speed

You see the issue? One is flat out better when the conditions is met. And primed fury is a login locked mod, it should be much better than it is.

Berserker is better than primed fury assuming no slows and stacks with primed fury unlike other speed mods. Its however worse if you get slowed because it multiplies the new speed instead of sharing its space in the calculation. You cant even truly compare it to fury and co.
Thus why i said if its raw stats benefits were to be compared, one would need to make SLB give 160~165% reach that multies ontop of P Reach, which unlike attack speed which is a low number % mod, actually would have a mandatory/BIS effect aka is dumb to do.
Meanwhile if one follows its stack trend for when it caps out its stats, it gives 2.5 which is nice (and unlike zerk which still gives a reason for PF to be equipped no matter its bonus, it being a cheaper almost as good PR is a good use case).

TLDR: half a meter bonus means consistent with zerk while accounting for how each stat works/is balanced

[Krenlik]

On 2020-05-25 at 3:33 PM, lukinu_u said:

It's still lower than Primed Reach, which is a big issue imo, the same issue extend to other contionnal mod where a primed variant exist to the normal mod.
Why would you use Sharpened Bullets when it's weaker than Primed Target Cracker ? Hydraulic Crosshairs instead of Primed Pistol Gambit ?

Currently, only Condtion Overload don't have this problem, but it sadly has the reverse issue where is completely make the primed version obsolete. But overall, it's much better to have the conditionnal one stronger rather than the opposite, since it encourage active gameplay rather than passive plain stat increase.

A simple fix to Spring-Loaded Blade would be the following : 
"+1.1 Range for 12s on Status Effect; Stack up to 3 times."
Nothing too strong, just sighly better than Primed Reach with 3.3m instead of 3m, and reduced duration to be a bit harder to use.

 

Primed Reach has a much higher drain to get that 3m.   In order to allow 3 stacks they'd drop the per-tick increases and add a lot more ticks to up the drain.

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 6 heures, Krenlik a dit :

Primed Reach has a much higher drain to get that 3m.   In order to allow 3 stacks they'd drop the per-tick increases and add a lot more ticks to up the drain.

Drain justify nothing balance wise, at the end it take up one mod slot, so other mods taking one mod slot and providing the same stats should have reasons to swapped around with each their pros and cons.

Edited May 27, 2020 by lukinu_u
Corrected "which" to "with" on the last sentence.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Berserker is better than primed fury assuming no slows and stacks with primed fury unlike other speed mods. Its however worse if you get slowed because it multiplies the new speed instead of sharing its space in the calculation. You cant even truly compare it to fury and co.
Thus why i said if its raw stats benefits were to be compared, one would need to make SLB give 160~165% reach that multies ontop of P Reach, which unlike attack speed which is a low number % mod, actually would have a mandatory/BIS effect aka is dumb to do.
Meanwhile if one follows its stack trend for when it caps out its stats, it gives 2.5 which is nice (and unlike zerk which still gives a reason for PF to be equipped no matter its bonus, it being a cheaper almost as good PR is a good use case).

TLDR: half a meter bonus means consistent with zerk while accounting for how each stat works/is balanced

I am aware of how berserker works now.

However it is still better than primed fury in nearly every situation. Most people do not double stack the two because even a unranked berserker is better than fully ranked primed fury. 

Likewise if 2.5 is the best SLB can do, people would only ever use it over reach to save mod capacity. Nothing would really change.

Likewise let me remind all that primed fury is a login reward, and not a popular choice because Pshred and Psurefooted are a far higher priority, as again breaker is universally better.

On the opposing side, primed reach is baro item. And is relatively easy to obtain. Being only a bit more expensive than SLB and about as easy to obtain.

If the choice is between 2 roughly equally difficult to obtain mods, and only the room for one exists in a build, people will choose berserker and primed reach purely on the end benefit being far superior. 2.5 on slb wont change that.

All of this STILL doesn't change that in terms if comparative benefit. SlB gives less improvenent over its non stacking versions than Berserker. No amount of differance in functionality can change that.

[Andele3025]

10 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

However it is still better than primed fury in nearly every situation. Most people do not double stack the two because even a unranked berserker is better than fully ranked primed fury. 

Likewise if 2.5 is the best SLB can do, people would only ever use it over reach to save mod capacity. Nothing would really change.

 

Except both of these statements aint true. You do stack em because attack speed already was a high DPS stat (not to mention kill count per area and stance comfort) pre melee 3.0 and has since become THE SINGLE BEST modifier for melee with 2 big multiplicative modifiers removed.

Reach equally has a massive effect on kill count per area and most setups that do want more than 4~m total range (which is most weapons with current SLB) want AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Giving 2 P Reach for a very low upkeep req just doesnt make sense, nor would changing it to be a % mod despite it then being comparable to zerk.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

1 minute ago, Andele3025 said:

Except both of these statements aint true. You do stack em because attack speed already was a high DPS stat (not to mention kill count per area and stance comfort) pre melee 3.0 and has since become THE SINGLE BEST modifier for melee with 2 big multiplicative modifiers removed.

Reach equally has a massive effect on kill count per area and most setups that do want more than 4~m total range (which is most weapons with current SLB) want AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Giving 2 P Reach for a very low upkeep req just doesnt make sense, nor would changing it to be a % mod despite it then being comparable to zerk.

Right then.. the best setup for every weapon is 2x speed mods and 2x range mods.

I will go announce this to region chat.

[Andele3025]

23 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Right then.. the best setup for every weapon is 2x speed mods and 2x range mods.

I will go announce this to region chat.

I mean, yes, PP, PF, PR, Zerk, SLB, Blood, Oran and PFS (or Buzz kill on pure slash) end up with the highest kills for dps on almost any mission short of going more than 1h 20m+ on kuva flood survivals where replacing it with Weeping or it and FS with 60/60 mods ends up better. You're increasing the area of your strikes from a 12 to 16m diameter tends to result in more kills per swing to a point where anything that isnt a 2x current damage mod is worse (which short of a riven isnt something that any single mod can achieve efficiently).

[z3us32610]

It is past time that Amalgam Furax knockdown be either changed to do something else, or actually knock enemies down to re