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Voltage

Respecting Time with Blazing Step

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With Home Devstream #4, it was stated that the Blazing Step Ephemera is going to be moved to the Arbitration shop. Now, I don't want to come off like Blazing Step had a good drop chance or acquisition method. It was quite horrible actually. However, why couldn't this have been addressed over a year ago in March 2019?

In Devstream 85 in January 2017, Steve commented on the Hema's research cost. Now, what he said was very important. The objective was to leave the cost the same to respect those who farmed it already, but to raise the floor in terms of drop rates on Mutagen Samples to increase the rate at which you farm it. That should have set a wonderful precedent going forward on how to approach these issues in order to honor the time spent in this game by dedicated players while still increasing drops that are too low/rare/annoying. I bring this up with the Blazing Step Ephemera, because like most updates over the years, there was a lack of calculated content pacing.

I would have loved to see the Blazing Step Ephemera (and most other ones) changed to be earned through achievement, but still respecting the people who ground it out in the past. Grind in Warframe is in fact content. Whether people want to accept that or not, it is objectively true. We grind as players to reach some goal, have some fun, and acquire more gear, cosmetics, mods, etc. Removing part of that content over time does bother some percentage of players, and I firmly believe that discontent about that action is valuable feedback. I can't be the only person who gets increasingly frustrated over time that the most effective way to play this game is to not touch anything new until DE revisits, trivializes, and disrespects their dedicated players to make things easier. 

I can assume the cost of the Blazing Step Ephemera from Arbitrations will likely match the Bleeding Body Ephemera which is cheap. I hope the Blazing Step is not cheap. I do hope it is an amount that still nods to the rarity of the item in some fashion. I assume this based on what happened to Primed Chamber from Baro Ki'teer, and I really hope I am wrong about how cheap this will be in the Arbiters of Hexis offerings.

During 2020, there have been a few major updates, with most of them following this sad trend from 2019 and before. Is it my problem for farming Intrinsics before waiting on DE to significantly buff the aquisition rate like they did with Focus? Should I feel bad for playing new content? DE needs to start learning from themselves in many areas of the game, but this one is highly important. This is probably my 50th+ time bringing up the subject of time spent in Warframe and how it is not respected by the developers of this game, but I still firmly believe that there is a way to make changes to existing grinds without significantly damaging the feelings of those who power through harsh grinds to provide feedback, gain loot, and enjoy content thrown at them. 

After hearing about what is happening to Blazing Step's future, I now question whether it is worth my time farming that Corpus shoulder armor from the Gauntlet mode. I have a gut feeling that the gameplay required to "earn" that cosmetic will be lowered as time passes. I shouldn't feel this way about content that isn't even out DE, but I do. Please consider making the cost from the Arbitration shop and the drop chance from Railjack respect the past existence and grind of the item.

It is irritating as an invested individual seeing more changes that voice the words "We don't care" to the time investments many players put into content. Having this message echo every few weeks/months is salt in the wound. Primed Chamber appearing from Baro Ki'teer has been the ultimate embodiment of this, and to be blunt, it sucks. I feel bad for farming Intrinsics early when I shouldn't, and I feel bad about my collection of Riven Mods when I shouldn't. Over time that feeling is amplified across my progress in Warframe, and if this game isn't going to give a damn about the time I put into it, I will eventually just stop playing, supporting, recommending, and giving feedback on it.

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Posted (edited)

Honestly, the fact that it's about heavy rng makes me happy the ephemera is being moved. Even if it's late.

Some poor sods spend ages trying to get it, all those ESO runs to level 8, just to leave empty-handed. Meanwhile, me, this very guy here, only rarely plays ESO. I don't really like it, and I use it mostly to level up frames (So, regular SO).

Yet, I've had Blazing Step drop to me 4 times now. Now that's what I call unfair, specially since I can't even trade them to other players.

Edited by (PS4)Hikuro-93
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I’m one of those Players who farmed it and i don’t see why Blazing Step won’t be cheap in Arbitrations since it’s too much time for a small Reward (seriously, 1% drop chance per 20 Mins for a Ephemera that looks like Candle coming out of your Feet. Come on) and it’s a Drop in Railjack too. I’m sure Players would have a nice time farming it, building it, and be disappointed by the Result if DE don’t get another look at that crap.

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Respecting players time is exactly what they're doing by adding it to the Arbitration shop and there is no reason it should cost any more than any other Ephemera.

 

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Posted (edited)

Funny how NOW they don't care about the grind other players invested again. Universal Medailions and conclave standing though, that mattered and couldn't possibly be done and needed to not be thing because it would disrespect the five players and their dog who grinded conclave.

Don't get me wrong. i farmed the ephemera and have NO problem whatsoever with it being moved with a reasonable pricing for other players to pick it up, but for the love of god do these selective and random decisions when it comes to respecting players time who grinded something trigger me. Also, 73 Exploiter Orbs until I had both ephemeras from her... just saying. They could need to be moved to a vendor (or even better achievments, as one of the initial ideas stated, but I guess that idea is dead) too.

Edited by (PS4)Deeceem
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So according to you it should cost 2,147,483,647 vitus, got it.

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30 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

Funny how NOW they don't care about the grind other players invested again. Universal Medailions and conclave standing though, that mattered and couldn't possibly be done and needed to not be thing because it would disrespect the five players and their dog who grinded conclave.

Farming pvp standing thru pve content is a bad design move. 

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Posted (edited)
vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Skippy575:

Farming pvp standing thru pve content is a bad design move. 

That wasn't their reasoning. Also getting a 1000 standing with a 5%(?) drop chance is hardly an alternative to actual conclave. If anything it could have been an entry point for players to do conclave, but I can go on:

- Moving the Blazing Step Ephemera to a vendor after people told DE for over a year that the grind is too crazy. Don't really respect the players who did literal 100s of ESO zone 8 runs to get it.

- Refrain from adding the ability to gain Conclave standing through UMs which have a low drop chance and give a whooping 1000 standing each. DE respects that one Conclave player who complained on Twitter and acts immediately.

- Moved Primed Chamber to Baro for 500 ducats. Not respecting players at all who either acquired it during the event or those who paid up to 6(!)-digit platinum amounts to get it being under the assumption (reinforced by DE on multiple occasions) it's only ever going to be given out again in few numbers as a price at TennoCons.

 - Reduced the grind to build a Railjack. Respects the players who built it and compensates them. Can refund spent resources and gift two repair drones.

- Doesn't reduce the Hema research grind out of respect for the clans who grinded it already. Can't refund mutagen samples to the clan vault and gift, let's say, a unique dojo decoration to those who already have it researched.

- Adds a built Ignis Wraith to Baro. Not really sure.

- Lessens overall Cetus grind after 2-ish? years. No respect for those who grinded 100s of Cetus Wisps for amps and those who had built their Exodias with blueprints.

There's probably more. I'll repeat myself: I don't mind making things more reasonable to get further down the line. I'm not saying this instance or that instance was "right" or "wrong" despite having personal opinions on each of them of course. I'm just annoyed by DE using "respecting a player's investment" to keep some things grindy or unavailable and the next time it's totally fine to lessen the grind or make things available with less investment and no Fs are given about the past investment of players.

As OP said, once you realize that it makes you warry about digging too deep into their content if it feels abnormaly grindy, because you might end up grinding for months just to be at the goal a week before the grind gets reduced to a day or two of time investment to reach the goal. This Ephemera being a good example for this. Try to imagine you farmed the ephemera for the past two and a half months and it finally dropped today and then you went on and watched today's devstream essentialy telling you you could have done something else the entire time and would have had to invest only a few days tops to get it marginally later than you just did.

That's really all it is.

Rant over.

Edited by (PS4)Deeceem
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1 hour ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

That wasn't their reasoning. Also getting a 1000 standing with a 5%(?) drop chance is hardly an alternative to actual conclave. If anything it could have been an entry point for players to do conclave, but I can go on:

No.

Reasoning be dammed, you should not progress pvp thru pve content. I don't care what DE's official response was, if anything goes against respecting players time that was the greatest culprit (for however short it was).

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Posted (edited)
vor 16 Stunden schrieb (XB1)Skippy575:

No.

Reasoning be dammed, you should not progress pvp thru pve content. I don't care what DE's official response was, if anything goes against respecting players time that was the greatest culprit (for however short it was).

Yes.

Now what? Any facts backing that up or is it also just an opinion so we can keep yelling "yes" and "no" at each other some more? There have been plenty of games that either did that or at least made you stronger in PvP through PvE items ergo made it easier to progress through PvP. Destiny and WoW to name just two where PvE and PvP progression, systems and even game modes aren't seperated exclusively. They overlap. Heck, even in Warframe you get access to most "PvP classes" only by playing PvE (or spending plat). If you exclusively progress through conclave you get like what? Excal, Volt and Mag? Loki? Never seen a PvE player complain about conclave players being able to get stuff from PvE to use in PvP or being allowed to use something they got in conclave in PvE. Ever played a Souls game where PvE and PvP are pretty entwined?

Also it was never an actual culprit since it was only an idea they threw around (along with Vent Kids and Simaris). Good to see you know what you want to argue about.

Excuse Me Reaction GIF by Originals

Edited by (PS4)Deeceem
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4 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Honestly, the fact that it's about heavy rng makes me happy the ephemera is being moved. Even if it's late.

Some poor sods spend ages trying to get it, all those ESO runs to level 8, just to leave empty-handed. Meanwhile, me, this very guy here, only rarely plays ESO. I don't really like it, and I use it mostly to level up frames (So, regular SO).

Yet, I've had Blazing Step drop to me 4 times now. Now that's what I call unfair, specially since I can't even trade them to other players.

The best part is. It's moving to a game mode I love to death. Arbies>eso. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

No.

Reasoning be dammed, you should not progress pvp thru pve content. I don't care what DE's official response was, if anything goes against respecting players time that was the greatest culprit (for however short it was).

Hey it works in WoW. 

I mean it is not *fast* but it works.

Edit : but the topic is about the mockery that blazing step is - good riddance, it is more accessible, but in no way rewards people that have went above and beyond in grinding the hell out of it, which Is the main point of this topic. Is it a bit entitled - yes. Is it with a reason?

Well you have to know what type of player @Voltage is. He sees a new frontier in the game and runs over it as many time as needed in order to attain the end goal. Is it understandable that such a mentality will feel a bit offended with the change. To some extend I am as well (i did get it the old fashion way), but this ephemera is not my hill to die on.

Edited by phoenix1992
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This should be a lesson for everyone. Don't waste your precious life time on countless 20 minute runs for an ephemera that doesn't even look outstanding and you very likely won't ever use or get anyway. It will be made trivial to get later on. And also far more reasonable. 

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DE have to get the numbers somehow to justify the reason to move blazing steps. The amount of tenno going into ESO for 8 rounds then coming out with the ephemera must be really low for them to throw it into arbitration. With that in mind, do more people have seeding steps than blazing steps? Or shocking steps for that matter?

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Posted (edited)
vor 39 Minuten schrieb (PS4)jaggerwanderer:

DE have to get the numbers somehow to justify the reason to move blazing steps. The amount of tenno going into ESO for 8 rounds then coming out with the ephemera must be really low for them to throw it into arbitration. With that in mind, do more people have seeding steps than blazing steps? Or shocking steps for that matter?

They knew that number when they gave it a 1% drop chance. 1 out of 100. Even less if someone gets it twice. Then it's 1 out of 200. Well, that's when we assume everyone reaches zone 8 solo. It's a bit more complicated with squads of four people. Point is, they knew exactly how few people would get it the day they decided to give it a 1% drop chance and then ignored all feedback for a year. I want to say at some point they increased it to 2%, but I might be misremembering.

Funnily enough I had Blazing before Shocking (took me 73 Exploiter Orbs - I counted the Hildryn parts in my inventory). Seeding drops relatively commonly for me and feels bad every time because it's a wasted rotation reward once you have it. Also something that has been critiqued for a year about ephemeras as rotation reward.

Edited by (PS4)Deeceem
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

This should be a lesson for everyone. Don't waste your precious life time on countless 20 minute runs for an ephemera that doesn't even look outstanding and you very likely won't ever use or get anyway. It will be made trivial to get later on. And also far more reasonable. 

Should players have just ignored Prime items from Void Towers until we got Void Fissures? Should players have just ignored Arcanes from Trials for 5 years until we got Scarlet Spear? Should players have just ignored Plains of Eidolon until Exodia, Magus, and Virtuous Arcanes were free of crafting costs? Should players have just ignored Archwing for years until every part was in Syndicate offerings? Blazing Step is an example of the bigger picture, not the entire story. Telling players to not play the game is not a lesson.

I am not here to argue whether Blazing Step is good or not or whether it was a healthy grind or not. Everyone knows the Vengeful Flame Ephemera is better, and the farm for Blazing Step was bad. My point of this thread is to outline DE's repeated mistake of leaving things like this for far too long, and when they do address it, they spit on the way it used to be by making it trivial. Hema is essentially the only exception to this aside from resource changes that get reimbursed (which isn't even a consistent event when they change resources).

I could list numerous examples of this, but that's partly in the thread I linked in the OP. DE has set a tone with their playerbase that they really don't care about how much time you've put into anything and they don't mind squeezing their dedicated players.

If you want to preach to players about spending time, you should be voicing that nothing in this game is worth playing at launch if you care about your time, and you are rewarded most by being inactive.

Edited by Voltage
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Posted (edited)

This regularly happens in GAAS Games. They need to tighten the gap between new players and veterans to entice new players to stay, unfortunately giving away mid to late game items or a progression skip is one of the answer. If they don’t then new players is gonna instantly quit terrified by the amount of huge grind wall they are about to face.

Destiny did this by allowing new players to instantly get power level 750. Old players took a long time to that point and oh boy there is a decent amount of salt in the aftermath of that decision.

Edited by DrivaMain
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14 hours ago, Voltage said:

Grind in Warframe is in fact content. Whether people want to accept that or not, it is objectively true.

No, it isn't. Not unless you can demonstrate otherwise. The notion that "grind is content" is how we end up with bullS#&$ like the Hema, the various Ephemeras, Harrow, etc. Grind is not content. If you want to grind content, you're fully free to do so whether it has a reward at the end or not. I've been grinding Liches since they came out even though I have all the Lich weapons already. I've been grinding Kuva Floods even though I don't use Kuva. I've been grinding Railjack even though I already have a maxed-out Railjack of my own - as maxed-out as it's going to get anyway. Grind is a waste of our time and a disrespect towards our ability to make decisions by employing Skinner box conditioning. If you enjoy grinding (which I'm dubious that you actually do), then more power to you. But denying others their new toys is not justified by this, as far as I'm concerned.

This goes back to the "intrinsic vs. extrinsic rewards" discussion. I'm fine with DE designing content with some "extrinsic rewards" attached. However, it's when they design content with NO "intrinsic rewards" on it that I have issues. Liches are a perfect example. There's no content there, only grind. Only a tiny bit of new gameplay exists in those, with the majority being just grinding the same missions we always have. That's when new releases start feeling like a scam, and when you start getting people repeat that "grind is not content." Again, here's my stand-by example - imagine if DE released a new Ephemera, earned by opening 10 000 lockers. Is that content? Because I would argue it isn't.

And to address the dissonance: The reason I grind Liches despite them offering no content and only grind is entirely accidental. Seemingly unintentionally, DE gave me a "difficulty setting" with Liches. Because all their missions are of a fixed level range, it means I can play all nodes on the Star Chart without having to drop down to meaninglessly low enemy levels. In a roundabout, unintended way, I ended up finding intrinsic rewards for playing Lich missions - the fixed difficulty.

 

14 hours ago, Voltage said:

I can't be the only person who gets increasingly frustrated over time that the most effective way to play this game is to not touch anything new until DE revisits, trivializes, and disrespects their dedicated players to make things easier.

Well, that entirely depends on how you define "efficiency," doesn't it? Sure, if your definition is "earning a reward with the least amount of time spent playing" then yes - holding off on playing new content until DE un-grind it is more efficient. It kind of goes in the face of your "grind is content" mantra, though. However, if your definition is "earning a reward as soon as possible," then grinding for it on release is almost always going to be more efficient. If you're waiting for DE to realise they badly mishandled reward acquisition in new content, you'll be waiting 6 months to a year at least, probably more. By contrast, grinding for a new reward will get it to you in a few days, more often than not. As I've said many times before - "grind" is the cost of early adoption. If you want the new thing NOW, you grind for it now. If you want it EASILY, you wait for a discount.

Now obviously, that's not good for DE because it does teach people to just hold off on playing new content. As such, you have a point there, but I'd argue it's the other way around. I'm not mad that content usually gets easier to progress through later down the line. I'm disappointed that DE consistently release horrible, boring grinds in the first place. Time and again, we get time-gated missions with low drop chances that we have to play over and over again, long after they've outstayed their welcome. Time and again, I'm left thinking "This is dumb, and I could have told you it was dumb just on face value." They want to err on the side of caution so that they can then lessen grind, rather than having to release something easy and restrict it later. Fine. But they go SO FAR in this process that they end up with what often ends up feeling straight-up insulting.

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