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xHeretic

Modular logic/approach applied to Operator Schools and some other stuff

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I know (thanks to the words of  Scott on the Shy interview) that you, dev team, are very aware about the current state of the Operator Schools right now. Sure it need a rework, but I assume it will be just a matter of time until we reach the same actual state of the system, with people refusing to spend time (and resources) on mastering every single node of our schools. I can't blame them! I was one of those people because we currently have nodes who actually consume more energy when you max it (unairu, madurai, vazarin have the worst cases of this), some people don't want to bother with thwe operator at all for other reasons, other portion don't wanna grind the hell out of it just to look at them and have everything unlocked just for collection porupose.

I'm seeing a certain patron regarding modular stuff (personally, I think the future of technology it's modular), wich also happens to appeal to the players... What if we can build our dream school ourselves?

This is the idea:

First: To access this, you need to have everything unlocked, even those nodes that most ofthe player base doesn't want to touch.

Second: Currently, every school modifies our base ability pool (void dash, void blast, void mode), with the modular system, we could choose what modifier we want to use depending on the mission type (similar to the mod system on frames). 

This would be more "realistic" (in regards for knowing things in shool/college/other forms of training) and would be an incentive to max every school.

The modular school and our regular current schools needs to exist at the same time,  that is to say, we could choose between the regualr school system and the modular system.

This would bring this question: "Why I would choose the current school system rather than the modular?" and here is when I need to relate to another similar case.

In Megaman X8, you have an armor set for X, called "Neutral armor", a modular system who let you choose between "Icaurs amor" (more dmg) and "Hermes armor" (more speed and defense), when you have a full set you also have access to their respective "ultimates", Icarus Giga Attack (a special, powerfull attack) or Hermes X-Drive (boosted stats for X), with mixed parts of both armors you can create your own personal style but without access to the Giga Attack or access to the X-Drive mode (I will put videos of those armors in the end of this topic).

How this could be applied to Warframe? Bring back Transcendence as  a "giga attack". A lot of players really miss that god like power (I'm one of those), was perfect with cooldown (to prevent abuse) and also a magnificent way to see our true and unleashed operator powers. That beam even appears on the Erra video, when we turn it to ashes. 

So, when you choose a complete school, you gain access again to trascendence on transference (haha). That new access to trascendence needs to have cooldown for the same reasons as before, probably reducing it based on operator personal performance (aka the more you kill as operator, the faster it recharges).

That would bring balance on the way we build ourselves and bring more variety to the system, also revitalizing it and also giving plenty of room for you, the dev team, to rework and tweak things. 

In regards of balance, I also have ideas, but since I don't know if you are interested on this idea and also I have no way to know your dev stats, it would be off place.

Thank you for your time reading this!

VIDEOS:

Icarus armor

Spoiler

 

Hermes armor:

Spoiler

 

 

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Posting essentially the same thing twice isn't needed.  If you feel you posted in the first location incorrectly, then ping a moderator and request the topic be moved.

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Just now, Jiminez_Burial said:

Posting essentially the same thing twice isn't needed.  If you feel you posted in the first location incorrectly, then ping a moderator and request the topic be moved.

Feedback = devs

General discussion = players

 

That's how works afaik, if you have a problem with that, feel free to report the general discussion thread, since this is the one who I like to maintain in case the mods delete one.

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5 minutes ago, xHeretic said:

Feedback = devs

General discussion = players

 

That's how works afaik

You know incorrectly.
It's just that DE doesn't read GD, only feedback. Still, players can read and post in feedback aswell.
So yeah, multiple posts aren't needed. There are actually against the forum rules. Thank god you read the rules.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

You know incorrectly.
It's just that DE doesn't read GD, only feedback. Still, players can read and post in feedback aswell.
So yeah, multiple posts aren't needed. There are actually against the forum rules. Thank god you read the rules.

Guess I'm going to report myself the GD thread then. Ty!

 

Edit: Done! Waiting for the GD thread to be deleted.

Edited by xHeretic

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21 minutes ago, Jiminez_Burial said:

Posting essentially the same thing twice isn't needed.  If you feel you posted in the first location incorrectly, then ping a moderator and request the topic be moved.

 

12 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

You know incorrectly.
It's just that DE doesn't read GD, only feedback. Still, players can read and post in feedback aswell.
So yeah, multiple posts aren't needed. There are actually against the forum rules. Thank god you read the rules.

GD thread deleted, ty both of you for letting me know about this.

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I don't think modular was a very good idea. Sure it's fun but it also causes a lot of problems when players can customize items like that.

Esp with the poor system mechanics Warframe has. When Zaws came out they were the best choice of their weapon type outside the few with bad stances. Kitgns were much the same. Changing one stat, sure. Not a big deal. Making all the stats through is unwise. Also what you suggest is kinda like having set bonuses. I personally hate them. Games like WoW and Diablo gave me a complex with set gear. The bonus is very binary. It's either too good to ignore and never worth bothering.

Also not buying any of their excuses with Focus 2.0. They changed it to Edolon kid fighting progression on purpose and they know it.

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Mmmmm...

Naw. This wouldn't really fix the problems with the Focus schools.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Also not buying any of their excuses with Focus 2.0. They changed it to Edolon kid fighting progression on purpose and they know it.

I personally take the route that they thought it was a good idea at the time, but didn't really think more than 1 step ahead. I get a feeling many of them fare poorly at chess.

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1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

I don't think modular was a very good idea. Sure it's fun but it also causes a lot of problems when players can customize items like that.

Esp with the poor system mechanics Warframe has. When Zaws came out they were the best choice of their weapon type outside the few with bad stances. Kitgns were much the same. Changing one stat, sure. Not a big deal. Making all the stats through is unwise. Also what you suggest is kinda like having set bonuses. I personally hate them. Games like WoW and Diablo gave me a complex with set gear. The bonus is very binary. It's either too good to ignore and never worth bothering.

Also not buying any of their excuses with Focus 2.0. They changed it to Edolon kid fighting progression on purpose and they know it.

So you don't want it because it would lead a meta? Right now the meta is Zenurik or Naramon for regular content, Unairu and Madurai for Eidolons (and some of us stick to Vazarin for general and Eidolon purpose). My best Zaw wasn't a polearm Zaw or a Plague Zaw, was a dagger. The best Zitgun I've seen wasn't a Catchmoon or a Tombfinger, it's a Rattleguts (pre and post nerf of Catchmoon). People outside the meta exist and are the whole reason behind a modular system, because not everyone it's looking for the same build. If the systrem was so bad, why people are expecting primary Kitguns and Modular Archwing? The mod system itself it's a modular system. A modular system well made can last a lot of time (like our current modular systems) and also is way more easy to add things in the future rather than rework everytime the whole structure (like it's need to be done right now).

So, what problem could cause choosing things for void mode, void blast or void dash? I think the bonus here (the trascendence) in exchange for making your own school (modular) it's a fair trade. Some people wouldn't mind that bonus if they can build their desired school, other people who won't bother with the system would have access to a powerful attack bonus. It's a matter of tastes rather than something mandatory. It's like saying the mod system won't work because everyone would opt for a full STR build. Choices and tastes are key for this game.

Also, seems you've missed the part of "I know (thanks to the words of  Scott on the Shy interview) that you, dev team, are very aware about the current state of the Operator Schools right now. Sure it need a rework, but I assume it will be just a matter of time until we reach the same actual state of the system". I'm asking for a rework but also asking for a system to give more life cycle to that rework. Sure I think a modular system would work with the current school system (better than nothing), but a rework is needed, because the current state is outdated and, as you've said, focused on Eidolon fight and also hard to modify.

9 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Mmmmm...

Naw. This wouldn't really fix the problems with the Focus schools.

I personally take the route that they thought it was a good idea at the time, but didn't really think more than 1 step ahead. I get a feeling many of them fare poorly at chess.

Why it wouldn't fix the problem with schools? A permutation/modular system it's literally part of the operator gameplay (arcanes and amps), another layer of customization of that gameplay can fix the main problems we have right now, even people says it, a "few nodes per school are useful", what if you could put together those nodes, but losing trascendence? I genuinelly think it's a fair trade. 

A modular system, as I said before in this comment, can be modified and used to add new things a way more easy rather than the actual system (full rework vs changing a nd tweaking a particular part of the system, like we've been seeing the devs do with kitguns: They didn't change the whole system when they nerfed the catchmoon). A modular system can outlast in time and also bring space in the future for the changes they are bringing every year. If their issue it's "they don't think more than 1 step ahead" (personally I disagree but welp, your opinion), a modualr system is literally the only way to be prepared for the future when you doesn't know what comes into the future. That's the whole point of a modular system, even IRL: Customization, economy, efficency and upgradeability.

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1 minute ago, xHeretic said:

Why it wouldn't fix the problem with schools?

The problem with our Focus schools isn't that we can't pick and choose what we want.

The problem is more that Operator combat outright sucks until you've got all of the Way-Bounds unlocked, and the rest of the Focus schools... don't really do much to help facilitate combat. They're fun ways to change up the basic Operator abilities, but they're not really all too useful outside of Eidolon fights. Most people really just pick Zenurik for easy energy regen.

I guess I'm more talking about the design of Operators as a whole. Because if you look at it that way, Focus schools do what they do just fine. It's Operator combat as a whole that's underwhelming, and the Focus schools just... don't help that.

For the most part, what I want to see from Operator schools is to have the 10 Way-Bounds be a sort of base foundation that you unlock before committing to any specific school (hopefully for a way lower cost than they currently have, because ugh). Then after that you pick a school as a sort of "specialization" to how your Operator fights.

Personally, beyond that, I want each Focus school to have 4 abilities, bound to the same keys/buttons that Warframes have (it's not like you can access them from Operator form). So, for us PC users, 1/2/3/4. Dash, Blast, and Cloak can all stay, but each school getting 4 unique abilities themed to that school might make the combat more interesting. Each school's 4th would be a big, powerful spell - I imagine Madurai would get the old Transcendence beam, since they're the most aggressive school.

I'd want to see a lot more than just tweaking the Focus schools for Operator combat, though. I'd want to see a modular "melee attachment" added to Amps, for one. Maybe with Void Blast being repurposed as the Operator's "Heavy Attack". I'd also love to see Dash tweaked to allow Operators better mobility, similar to how Warframes can bullet jump all over the place. (people already use Dash combined with gear restore to zoom fully across a map in a few seconds)

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5 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The problem with our Focus schools isn't that we can't pick and choose what we want.

The problem is more that Operator combat outright sucks until you've got all of the Way-Bounds unlocked, and the rest of the Focus schools... don't really do much to help facilitate combat. They're fun ways to change up the basic Operator abilities, but they're not really all too useful outside of Eidolon fights. Most people really just pick Zenurik for easy energy regen.

I guess I'm more talking about the design of Operators as a whole. Because if you look at it that way, Focus schools do what they do just fine. It's Operator combat as a whole that's underwhelming, and the Focus schools just... don't help that.

For the most part, what I want to see from Operator schools is to have the 10 Way-Bounds be a sort of base foundation that you unlock before committing to any specific school (hopefully for a way lower cost than they currently have, because ugh). Then after that you pick a school as a sort of "specialization" to how your Operator fights.

Personally, beyond that, I want each Focus school to have 4 abilities, bound to the same keys/buttons that Warframes have (it's not like you can access them from Operator form). So, for us PC users, 1/2/3/4. Dash, Blast, and Cloak can all stay, but each school getting 4 unique abilities themed to that school might make the combat more interesting. Each school's 4th would be a big, powerful spell - I imagine Madurai would get the old Transcendence beam, since they're the most aggressive school.

I'd want to see a lot more than just tweaking the Focus schools for Operator combat, though. I'd want to see a modular "melee attachment" added to Amps, for one. Maybe with Void Blast being repurposed as the Operator's "Heavy Attack". I'd also love to see Dash tweaked to allow Operators better mobility, similar to how Warframes can bullet jump all over the place. (people already use Dash combined with gear restore to zoom fully across a map in a few seconds)

Cool. make your thread form your suggestions.

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1 hour ago, xHeretic said:

So you don't want it because it would lead a meta? Right now the meta is Zenurik or Naramon for regular content, Unairu and Madurai for Eidolons (and some of us stick to Vazarin for general and Eidolon purpose). My best Zaw wasn't a polearm Zaw or a Plague Zaw, was a dagger. The best Zitgun I've seen wasn't a Catchmoon or a Tombfinger, it's a Rattleguts (pre and post nerf of Catchmoon). People outside the meta exist and are the whole reason behind a modular system, because not everyone it's looking for the same build. If the systrem was so bad, why people are expecting primary Kitguns and Modular Archwing? The mod system itself it's a modular system. A modular system well made can last a lot of time (like our current modular systems) and also is way more easy to add things in the future rather than rework everytime the whole structure (like it's need to be done right now).

 

It's not meta, It's a pigeon hole. Perhaps it can turn into a meta because the choices become limited but it's not a meta itself.

It's a simple binary choice. Is the set bonus worth it or not. Simple as that. In majority of cases in video games the set bonus is worth it which is why it's a commonly know pigeon hole tactic. It's a way to control player builds and gearing by making the bonus so obscene they can't ignore it's perks and thus play the way the Devs want them to which is easier to balance and control. ie, PvP Set, Raid Set, DPS Set, Healing Set, ect. DE does this too by simply deleting out play options. Stealth? Raids? CC? *Poof*.

You missed the point about modular items. A Polearm Zaw was the best Polearm. A Machete Zaw was the best Machete, A Dagger Zaw was the best dagger. Same applies to Kitguns, In each gun type they were the best option. Semi-Auto Tombfinger Full-Auto, Rattleguts, Gaze was the best secondary Beam and so on.

I also didn't miss the part about a particular Dev saying something. Lets just say there's been questionable information said by them in the past. I've played this game long enough and know enough about it's mechanics to not just simply accept information as truth when I've tested and experienced otherwise. Similar to what the other player said, I doubt Devs even had Eidolons on their minds with Focus 1.0 and they turned it into an Operator dump bin with Focus 2.0. It's has never been what we were promised.

You can scour way back and find Steve saying something along the lines of "It's progression for players to do once they've maxed out everything". - Sure long as you don't also max that out. It's never been a proper Alternate Advancement system which by nature don't end; They soft cap.

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I posted a pretty detailed rework the other day about adding customization to Focus while still keeping the identity of picking a school to focus on.

Nobody really seemed to care, this thread already has far more discussion on the topic, but I thought you might be interested.

 

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51 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

It's not meta, It's a pigeon hole. Perhaps it can turn into a meta because the choices become limited but it's not a meta itself.

It's a simple binary choice. Is the set bonus worth it or not. Simple as that. In majority of cases in video games the set bonus is worth it which is why it's a commonly know pigeon hole tactic. It's a way to control player builds and gearing by making the bonus so obscene they can't ignore it's perks and thus play the way the Devs want them to which is easier to balance and control. ie, PvP Set, Raid Set, DPS Set, Healing Set, ect. DE does this too by simply deleting out play options. Stealth? Raids? CC? *Poof*.

You missed the point about modular items. A Polearm Zaw was the best Polearm. A Machete Zaw was the best Machete, A Dagger Zaw was the best dagger. Same applies to Kitguns, In each gun type they were the best option. Semi-Auto Tombfinger Full-Auto, Rattleguts, Gaze was the best secondary Beam and so on.

I also didn't miss the part about a particular Dev saying something. Lets just say there's been questionable information said by them in the past. I've played this game long enough and know enough about it's mechanics to not just simply accept information as truth when I've tested and experienced otherwise. Similar to what the other player said, I doubt Devs even had Eidolons on their minds with Focus 1.0 and they turned it into an Operator dump bin with Focus 2.0. It's has never been what we were promised.

You can scour way back and find Steve saying something along the lines of "It's progression for players to do once they've maxed out everything". - Sure long as you don't also max that out. It's never been a proper Alternate Advancement system which by nature don't end; They soft cap.

What's a "pidgeon hole"? We have a lot of bonus sets right now in the game on our mods, dunno why here wouldn't apply. I suggested the "giga attack" to bring back trascendence (based on the Erra video and also some players opinions).

What's the point I've missed regarding those weapons. They are good. The best? Dunno. I can't make a dagger as good as rakta dark dagger. I could continue to bring examples of weapons with better mechanics and similar stats, I also doubt there is a "best weapon" in the game right now, same with frames. 

When I maxed out everything with the oprator, as an operator player, I felt the progression they've said. Sadly, not a lot of people like the system enough or care about it to try it outside eidolon and pushing their limits on things like arbitrations (I can do 2 hours of arbi with the operator, alone and with teammates). Who would thought that when you max every system out there wouldn't be anything else unless they add new systems.

19 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I posted a pretty detailed rework the other day about adding customization to Focus while still keeping the identity of picking a school to focus on.

Nobody really seemed to care, this thread already has far more discussion on the topic, but I thought you might be interested.

I liked part of your idea (and thank you for not trying to derail this thread with your opinion), your idea and my idea are very similar on the base concept (modular), dunno what they would do to reach that modular state, but I think it will be there sometime in the futre. I doubt they bring back trascendence or take into account your balance suggestions, but the core idea is being suggested froma ,oong time ago (someone mesasged me with a thread from 2017 with similar suggestions but also with his/her take on balance and suggestions of what a rework should contain). I tried to bring attention to this thread with another thread on GD (basically the same thread), because here on feedback things don't have the propper exposure and that's why people do them on GD instead here. I find your thread just because you posted it (and thank you for that), that talks a lot about the state of this subforum buried under subcategories. I feel that if a warframe partner or a popular thread on reddit doesn't talk about this, we won't see a proper foucs school system because people care about frame gameplay rather than this.

This thread also doesn't have any meaningful discussion rather than 2 users telling me "don't duplicate", and 2 users trying to bash the idea based on "this is better" or "the devs can't do better" basically. You are the first  user who had genuine interest on the idea. I've done other thrads about the operator here and GD, no thread gained exposure unless I went full controversial about the topic. Very sad.

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I really like this idea. Focus schools are very restrictive in my opinion, and i really want the big ass void beam to make a comeback, with it's cooldown and all

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5 hours ago, xHeretic said:

What's a "pidgeon hole"? We have a lot of bonus sets right now in the game on our mods, dunno why here wouldn't apply.

 

Have you seriously ever used a mod for it's set bonus outside exploiting exalted weapons?
I'm thinking no because in Warframe's case that set bonus binary choice is No. As I mentioned the choice is always Yes or No. Not well, this would be good for this situation but not this one or I want to try this setup instead of the set bonus. It's flat out go for the set bonus always or never.

5 hours ago, xHeretic said:

I also doubt there is a "best weapon" in the game right now, same with frames.

 

You will probably never know then. The difference between weapons isn't challenged anymore. You'll never see just how grossly some weapons and frames out perform others because the game no longer pushes it's players so they no longer have to learn and maximize their play options. Still... They exist.

...and that's not the purpose of an Alternate Advancement systems which I thought I made clear. The point is you CANNOT finish them. Being able to do so in itself is a failure in design. The good stuff is easy to get then it takes longer and longer to get a little bit more. That's how you keep the hardcore players busy while also giving the casuals something to do and not miss out on much. It's really basic design and DE failed.  Twice.

I finished Focus 2.0 the moment it came out since I already had enough points to max everything. Does that sound like an alternate advancement system to you or just another grind into a dead end like most things in this game? That's why I hardly play anymore. Whatever you grind for now I'll get x10 easier later on. No point.

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11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Have you seriously ever used a mod for it's set bonus outside exploiting exalted weapons?

I don't use exalted weapons unless it's mandatory (aka a bad loadout for a mission with restrictions), I play as operator 90% of the time.

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I'm thinking no because in Warframe's case that set bonus binary choice is No. As I mentioned the choice is always Yes or No. Not well, this would be good for this situation but not this one or I want to try this setup instead of the set bonus. It's flat out go for the set bonus always or never.

I don't udnerstand what are you talking about, but umbra mdos are very nice and also have a cool gimmick about the bonus set. I don't even use the 3 mods at the same time.
 

14 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

You will probably never know then. The difference between weapons isn't challenged anymore. You'll never see just how grossly some weapons and frames out perform others because the game no longer pushes it's players so they no longer have to learn and maximize their play options. Still... They exist.

Dunno how you can compare 42 frames with different skills and playstyle, but ok, if you say so.

14 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

...and that's not the purpose of an Alternate Advancement systems which I thought I made clear. The point is you CANNOT finish them. Being able to do so in itself is a failure in design. The good stuff is easy to get then it takes longer and longer to get a little bit more. That's how you keep the hardcore players busy while also giving the casuals something to do and not miss out on much. It's really basic design and DE failed.  Twice.

Sadly for you I'm not in your mind, you never explained about your "alternate advancement system", you just restort to compare 2 different kind of things, the giga attack bonus and the onus stats for wow, but well, good for you. 

14 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I finished Focus 2.0 the moment it came out since I already had enough points to max everything. Does that sound like an alternate advancement system to you or just another grind into a dead end like most things in this game? That's why I hardly play anymore. Whatever you grind for now I'll get x10 easier later on. No point.

How sad, I'm sorry.

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