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Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion


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1 minute ago, Sevek7 said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I remember ember and was glad that the passive playstyle was removed. Personally, I feel like the bramma is also this passive playstyle where you don't need to bother aiming at enemies, just let an arrow loose randomly into a room and the whole room dies up to level 150. It seems very boring and I understand some people like a game where you can just switch off the brain and auto-win, but personally I prefer a more engaging experience.

I 100% agree with you my dude and this brings me back to the Ember comment. Very true that at lower levels World on Fire was as passive as it got when it came to ridiculous but anything past like uranus and it struggled to the point it wasn't worth using. Whereas the people wanting a more engaging experience with the game, that regularly challenge themselves to long survivals and making their own end-game in and otherwise end-gameless game love the Bramma as it provides a means to go further and given the upcoming hard-mode and what a lot of people are hoping it will be, I don't think the Bramma, given the steps needed to get it, should be hit with the PabloNerfHammer right now. 

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6 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

The Bramma is more like ordering a burger and being delivered a brick of cocaine...

😂 I think I love you.

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2 hours ago, Kayll said:

If AoE weapons deal more than single target weapons, then what is the point in single target weapons?

What's the point? Maybe a little word called "Precision." Maybe a thing called sustained dps.

Explosive weapons have been nearly incapable of getting things like headshots for a long time after DE changed it. It has been like that for years.

Every AoE weapon in Warframe has a downside. The most common downsides are as follows:
Lower Ammo Pool. Low range/accuracy or terrible accuracy at long ranges. Explosions will not deal headshot damage.  Charge time/Travel time. Slow Projectile speed. AoE weapons would not be worth the downsides if they had low damage.

What's the point in firing a missile into a group of enemies if they are all just mildly tickled? Seems you don't know the point of single target weapons, or the point of AoE weapons.

A perfect example of this? The BFG. Have you played doom? Are you vaguely aware of doom? One of the earliest successful first person shooters. It had a sequel come out a few months ago.
The BFG is a gun in doom that instantly kills every enemy in range. It's full name is the Big *Duck noises* Gun. It typically only has a few shots. It also deals 0 damage to enemies like the final boss in the game (The Newest Doom.) because you have to hit weakpoints for it. It has the exact same functionality, purpose, and downsides as the Bramma. Slow projectile. Limited Precision. Kills every enemy in a radius.
Every other weapon in doom has the benefit of precision, being better at killing specific enemies, or all of the other weapons having this little thing called more ammo.

The Bramma is the single worst weapon to hit enemy weakspots with. it's great for killing the de facto standard hordes. Anything from killing Wolf of Saturn Six, Eidolons, Lephantis, to even glassmaker enemies its absolutely terrible.

I can shoot a glassed enemy about 8 times with the Bramma, or melee it twice, or shoot it twice with a normal gun.

3 hours ago, Kayll said:

Whats the point in putting the effort in to make sure your shots land when you can shoot at the ground and clear entire rooms with no repercussions?

Or instead of shooting at all, you could just be a Saryn, Volt, Equniox, or Mag and just nuke everything in 30 meters around you. Much better then the Bramma's 8 meter range. There are no repercussions to Press 4 to win. I don't even get knocked down.

I can do you one better. What's the point in putting effort into making a new boss encounter, with new mechanics. Making new endgame rewards and weapons, just to ruin the rewards by nerfing them later cause of terrible opinions like yours.

The Kuva lich, and associated Kuva weapons were designed to be endgame weapons, aka some of the best weapons in the game. (And the Bramma is beat in dps, by a single target, Rubico. Or do you want to see if you can kill an eidolon with a bramma faster then my rubico.

So in a horde shooter. What's the point of a single target weapon? To kill single enemies quickly. To be precise. To not use much ammo. That's why something like the Tiberon has 540 shots, when something like a Zarr has 84 shots.

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3 minutes ago, Umbranoir said:

I 100% agree with you my dude and this brings me back to the Ember comment. Very true that at lower levels World on Fire was as passive as it got when it came to ridiculous but anything past like uranus and it struggled to the point it wasn't worth using. Whereas the people wanting a more engaging experience with the game, that regularly challenge themselves to long survivals and making their own end-game in and otherwise end-gameless game love the Bramma as it provides a means to go further and given the upcoming hard-mode and what a lot of people are hoping it will be, I don't think the Bramma, given the steps needed to get it, should be hit with the PabloNerfHammer right now. 

Right, I agree that the Bramma's power can let players like us who want to push ourselves to the limit go further. But it doesn't need the passivity that comes with shooting the ground, if the arrow explodes only on contact with an enemy, then we can still go further but without turning the game into naptime. We already removed the need to use mobility with adaptation, now we removed the need to aim with bramma. What's the next element of engaging play that we'll remove? I think we'll just have to disagree. For me, shooting the ground a lot and auto-winning the whole game is not why I play Warframe.

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My god, the willful ignorance is strong with this one.

16 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Like Saryn's Miasma? Volt's discharge? Like Octavia's mallet being the single strongest ability in the game?

...you are just mentioning the outliers that make this game the unbalanced mess that it is. Just throw in there mesa's 4 and equinox's maim for good measure. It doesn't take a genius to understand that unchecked AoE, in a horde shooter, highly damages variety and balance. Because you know, it becomes the single best way to deal with enemies, butchering any other option if it has no drawbacks. Comparing the Bramma to the other rotten apples just proves the point even further. 

16 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You mean like how Destiny, Borderlands 3, the Division 2 and so on have the same result when they release new more powerful weapons?

I can speak only for Destiny, as I haven't played the other games. Destiny periodically releases new sets of guns with different/new perk pools. Most of the times they are side grades to existing equipment, but even when they are straight upgrades (see Spare Rations as a notorious example), the different, specialized archetypes make sure the weapon doesn't dominate everywherebecause there are instances in which the archetype of said weapon simply isn't useful. In warframe, this doesn't happen. There's no range factor, because spaces are innately small, because we can reach any enemy incredibly quickly, and because ultimately a far away enemy can't harm either you or the objective, nor is it a priority target in kill based missions since you can just destroy what's closer and deal with the farther target when it comes close. There is, ultimately, no specialization needed (except for eidolons, but that's a single, niche activity that comprises an almost irrelevant portion of content for the community at large, especially after scarlet spear), so the best weapon is the one that can clear the most enemies in the shortest amount of time. Guess what dominates? Unrestricted AoE, at the expense of every single target weapon, which becomes irrelevant. It doesn't matter if xyz single target has more Dps on paper, an AoE is innately much easier to use, and it effectively multiplies its own dps by the number of enemies hit in a single shot. It should be good at clearing fodder, but should be next to useless against heavies, at least in the setting of a horde shooter.

16 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except that removing self damage didn't make any guns weaker.

Except it added stagger to weapons that previously didn't even have self damage, which technically means it made them worse, ergo weaker.

16 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

the Gjallarhorn from Destiny for details.

Again, I can speak only for Destiny. The G-horn is a heavy rocket launcher. With 7 maximum munition. Munition that is pretty rare on the battlefield. You can't use a Ghorn in destiny 24/7, and the scarcity of ammunition makes using it against fodder a waste. Thus creating the need for utility (primary) weapons. Yes, it's easy to use, and powerful. But it's a trump card that comes into play against specific, tough targets, and requires mindful resource management in order not to waste its potential. In Warframe, even without ammo mutations, you'll never run out of Bramma shots as long as you kill stuff, making you able to use it 24/7. The two weapons aren't even comparable.

16 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Almost like people aren't going to bother with weak weapons that don't interest them, and instead gravitate towards a newer stronger weapon.

And that's exactly the issue. As it stands, the Bramma is so much better than other options that no one will ever bother with those. That's fantastic in a game with 200+ distinct weapons, that prides itself on its variety...

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14 hours ago, Aldain said:

I dunno, it has/had the Mirage interactions of the Simulor (lag + eyeball destruction) the "Its just better than almost everything" nature of the Catchmoon, the AoE power of the pre-nerfed Tonkor from way back and the ability to be W+fire'd with minimal drawbacks like Ignis.

Refreshing Kermit The Frog GIF

I play on console, so I do not have nor have I experienced the "eye ball destruction." You could freely adjust that. I wouldn't care.

Other then that. I disagree with everything you said. I built several kitguns. Every single on of them was honestly horrendous. I was hoping the tombfinger would be like a mini opticor. Surprise, the tombfinger was completely awful.

Seeing as people liked the Arca Plasmor, and the Arca Plasmor operator Amp...
It only makes logical sense that the catchmoon was the most popular. However, DE should have made the other kitguns better. Instead of nerfing them. Now all the kitguns are equally trash, and I'm irritated I can't scrap them to get my resources back. Like every kitgun is 100% kitgarbage.

The Tonkor was such a fun weapon. It literally had nothing wrong with it, except people like you are allergic to fun. I mean it. I consider everyone who advocated for the Tonkor Nerf pure cancer. Now the tonkor gathers dust on the shelf of fun weapons that the community ruined for no reason. It didn't even have good damage when it was added. It had a base damage of 325 when it was first added. It was the weakest launcher in the game when it came to base damage. Ogris, Penta, and Torid all did more damage.

The Tonkor only exploded if you hit enemies, or if used a specifically modded zephyr so the grenades exploded on intact. You either made a zephyr with... some... 230% power strength I think, or missing with that gun was awful lol.

If I could play a previous version of warframe that gave me rocket jumping back with the Tonkor. I would honestly play the old versions. It was honestly fun rocket jumping around.

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

My god, the willful ignorance is strong with this one.

Speak for yourself.

Saryn has been an AoE nuke for literal years, and every re-work DE does with her only tweaks how she nukes everything around her. DE also makes MORE explosive weapons that deal AoE damage. Then, on top of that? DE makes every AoE weapon in the game safer to use by removing self damage.

So you are aware how many warframes are able to nuke enemies in a 30 meter radius right? Banshee, Equinox, Frost, Mag, Mesa, Revenant, Octavia, Saryn, and Volt. Even could technically throw Nyx in there if you wanted to.

None of these frames have been addressed. Banshee isn't constantly being called for a nerf cause of resonating quake. Nobody complains about Volt stun locking enemies with his discharge and clearing the entire map.

I wonder why.
"Willful ignorance" indeed. Or did you just forget all these frames exist?

14 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

...you are just mentioning the outliers that make this game the unbalanced mess

Hey Shon.
Imma let you in on a little secret. Just between you and me. Ok? Keep it quiet. Don't want anyone else to read this. Their feelings might get hurt, cause they think Warframe is a difficult skill based game.

Nothing about warframe is, or ever will be balanced. Ever. It's a horde shooter. Frames that can completely negate damage like Limbo, Nidus, Operator invisibility, Harrow, Nyx, Gara, Valkyr, Hydroid, Rhino, Revenant, Wukong and Zephyr aren't balanced.

Frames that can completely stop enemy movement, freeze them in place, slow them to a crawl, keep them suspended harmlessly in the air, mind control them, eat them, drown them, petrify them, sleep them, stun lock them, or have them follow a little musical ball that kills them isn't balanced.

There are so many different methods of being unkillable at your disposal. So many methods of dealing almost infinite damage, so many ways you can get or replenish energy and continue your reign as an unkillable god of destruction.

27 different frames are so strong that they make the game unbalanced. (Not counting Primes. Just considering Saryn and Saryn Prime as 1.

22 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

I can speak only for Destiny, as I haven't played the other games. Destiny periodically releases new sets of guns with different/new perk pools. Most of the times they are side grades

And you are already wrong. So. What is better? A gun with a light level of 960, or a 360 light level Gjallerhorn, or Black Spindel?

Destiny is an MMO much like warframe, and when a new expansion comes out, they add stronger weapons and armor.

The bramma is the current equivalent to a max light level weapon on destiny 2. The Mk-1 braton is equivalent to the first submachine gun you get in destiny 1. The difference is that warframe's light levels aren't listed so people like you understand that this weapon is endgame.

Warframe has a large variety of weapons. Many, many, many weapons are low tier, low level weapons. Tetra, kraken, dark blade, magnus, and the soma to name a few. They are low level weapons compared to newer weapons like the Acceltra, Corrinth Prime, Rubico Prime, and some of the Kuva weapons.

29 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

And that's exactly the issue. As it stands, the Bramma is so much better than other options that no one will ever bother with those. That's fantastic in a game with 200+ distinct weapons, that prides itself on its variety...

Wrong again.

I like the Bramma. I really do. Except I like the weapons I like. I'm in a mission right now. Not using my 8 forma-ed bramma with a god riven. Not every gun is going to be liked by everyone.

I hated pulse rifles in destiny. I hate burst weapons in warframe. I really, really, really, hate kitguns in warframe. All of them. Even the catchmmon. I think every kitgun in the game needs a total rework.

There exist three kinds of players in Warframe. You have the Mastery Rank completionists. These are the people who try to get every gun in the game mastered. There are the casuals, who don't take things to seriously and just get the items and weapons they can, and that work for them. Then there are the people like me who find a certain weapon that attracts them. They get attached to said weapon, and spend hours drawing out the weapons full potential.

On my favorite weapons, I typically have anywhere between 5-8 forma on them. I get riven's for them. Then enjoy testing the full might of my weapon. I go into hour long survivals, and see how they fair.

Warframe has a large amount of weapons. And most of them are so bad, like kitguns/Tetra/The hind, the gorgon, etc that I have no reason to get them. I don't like how they feel or play. I don't like how weak they are. I don't care about Mastery Rank. So I have no use for them.

Variety, only matters with special snowflakes like you. You want all weapons to be equally viable. Destiny 2 doesn't have all weapons be equally viable. Every shooter in the history of the world doesn't have all weapons be equally viable.

Meanwhile, I'm quite happy with the selection of weapons I have that are endgame. I'm quite fond of my Vectis/Rubico Prime. They kill my raid bosses just fine. I'm quite happy with my selection of assault rifles. The Acceltra being my favorite crit weapon. The full auto tiberon being my favorite status.

Shotguns... Kinda mixed on those as of late. If DE fixes the Corrinth Prime's alt fire, then I'll have my defacto favorite.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Other then that. I disagree with everything you said. I built several kitguns. Every single on of them was honestly horrendous. I was hoping the tombfinger would be like a mini opticor. Surprise, the tombfinger was completely awful.

Funny you say this cause it allows me to highlight a point you were blind to see, the changes to self damage nerfed weapons such as the Tombfinger, a weapon that you think was completely awful.
Being too close to your target with the target you aim at with the Tombfinger now self stuns you now.
Same with the Operator weapon that fires like the Arca Plasmor,neither of these weapons did self-damage before, but now they make you fall over for using them like you used to,This is why the knee-jerk reaction of self-damage removal was taken negatively by a lot of players.
I mean it even made the Stug worse for god sake,something I didn't even think possible.

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You ordered your burger with extra onions.  DE gave it to you with ALL THE ONIONS IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM.  That's okay for you since you like onions so much.  It's not without it's downsides for those around you though since it smells like putrid half digested onions whenever you fart or belch.  Which you do a lot.  Constantly.  It's not your fault--its probably a genetic predisposition.

So I'm not judging you personally, but something has to be done about your onion gas.  Not only does it smell vile, but it's loud and the fumes are so thick they burn and nobody around you can see anything.

DE just needs to start with toning it down on the onions a bit.   There's still a very tasty burger under there somewhere.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I think that it can be done without an outright nerf though. I think the best way to bring the Bramma in line is to have the arrow only explode on contact with an enemy. That way, you still get your giant cluster bomb and wiping the entire room, but now need to aim instead of just shooting blindly at the ground / ceiling. 

FWIW, I like this idea not just because it controls the power, nor that it even isolates balance to the weapon (instead of relying on nerfs that could be lessened or circumvented with other equipment!) but it lets me appreciate the skill someone else has. If there's a bunch of explosions from a Bramma, I know it's because they nailed that direct hit. And if they can wipe out an entire Exterminate mission like that, they've pretty much earned it in my book.

As a 'support main', seeing the skill of others is my jam, btw.

The other factor is that, with their proposed nerf, it's not even certain it'll work. If you slap on Carrier or an ammo mutation mod, is the low ammo count going to matter enough? Or is it still going to end up blowing everything to kingdom come with just as much ease because you have 5 bombs to try to get 2 ammo packs and RNG isn't stringy enough with ammo? (Not even to mention, hey, if you get borked over from RNG, your great bow is now trash. So the efficacy of a weapon gets tied closer to things outside player control than within. That's not good!)

Edited by Tyreaus
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5 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I remember ember and was glad that the passive playstyle was removed. Personally, I feel like the bramma is also this passive playstyle where you don't need to bother aiming at enemies, just let an arrow loose randomly into a room and the whole room dies up to level 150. It seems very boring and I understand some people like a game where you can just switch off the brain and auto-win, but personally I prefer a more engaging experience.

Whole room dies up to level 1000

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

FWIW, I like this idea not just because it controls the power, nor that it even isolates balance to the weapon (instead of relying on nerfs that could be lessened or circumvented with other equipment!) but it lets me appreciate the skill someone else has. If there's a bunch of explosions from a Bramma, I know it's because they nailed that direct hit. And if they can wipe out an entire Exterminate mission like that, they've pretty much earned it in my book.

As a 'support main', seeing the skill of others is my jam, btw.

The other factor is that, with their proposed nerf, it's not even certain it'll work. If you slap on Carrier or an ammo mutation mod, is the low ammo count going to matter enough? Or is it still going to end up blowing everything to kingdom come with just as much ease because you have 5 bombs to try to get 2 ammo packs and RNG isn't stringy enough with ammo? (Not even to mention, hey, if you get borked over from RNG, your great bow is now trash. So the efficacy of a weapon gets tied closer to things outside player control than within. That's not good!)

Thanks! That's the first positive response I've had for my idea. I've posted it in every bramma discussion thread I found and it's been ignored by all on both sides until now 🙂 

I also don't think the ammo economy is going to be a problem at all. I bet every ammo pack will give at least 1 arrow via mutation. Considering the huge amount of kills you can get at once this will totally negate any ammo drain. Not to mention as you said, carrier will work, as will nekros, and ammo restores. However, I'll wait and see how it works out after the update. 

 

Edited by Sevek7
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6 hours ago, Kayll said:

Funny you say this cause it allows me to highlight a point you were blind to see, the changes to self damage nerfed weapons such as the Tombfinger, a weapon that you think was completely awful.

Except that I thought the Tombfinger was awful even before the changes. It's probably even worse now. I have never been self stunned by it. I don't typically aim at myself. That seems to be a problem you have. You keep mentioning every so often.

Me? The kitguns don't seem to have much power. I like my secondary weapons to a decent amount of power. I was extremely underwhelmed by these weapons. I'll stick to my brakk, my aklex prime. My akstilettos and so on.
 

6 hours ago, Kayll said:

Same with the Operator weapon that fires like the Arca Plasmor,

Don't think so. I used said amp to eidolon farm yesterday.

Either you have to aim straight at your feet for said knockback. (Which means any person with a brain could avoid that, thus making it a NON issue.) Or it's a pc only problem.
 

6 hours ago, Kayll said:

I mean it even made the Stug worse for god sake,something I didn't even think possible.

You and I have different definitions of worse.

When something is "Worse" the performance of using the weapon correctly goes down. So when people say the word "Nerf" I don't think about aiming straight down at my foot and firing. I think about the effect it has directly on the enemies going down.

So a tombfinger "NERF" would be its damage being worse then it was when I built it. So unless the Tombfinger, the stug, and other such weapons had their damage reduced or other notable features about it ruined.... not quite a nerf.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Don't think so. I used said amp to eidolon farm yesterday.

Either you have to aim straight at your feet for said knockback. (Which means any person with a brain could avoid that, thus making it a NON issue.) Or it's a pc only problem.
 

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ElaborateCluelessCurlew-mobile.mp4
"aim straight at your feet for said knockback." This is about half way from the weapons max listed range.
Also you do realize you're basically shooting up into the air for a majority of the Eidolon fight in a giant open field?
But this is besides the point, why does this have knockback at all? It didn't self damage before,so why would it have knockback now?

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

So a tombfinger "NERF" would be its damage being worse then it was when I built it. So unless the Tombfinger, the stug, and other such weapons had their damage reduced or other notable features about it ruined.... not quite a nerf.

This is just semantics at this point, no changes were done intentionally done to the Tombfinger correct,but was it changed for the worse? Yes,another weapon that did no self damage now staggering the players using it.

Anyway I'm done arguing with brick walls, the weapon is in the hand's of DE and it seems like today they have made decisions to rectify some of the problems this weapon is causing to the game and for that I'm grateful.

Edited by Kayll
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I saw the argument: "If an explosive weapon does less damage than single-target weapons, the explosive weapon is useless." This couldn't be more further from the truth. Let's take a hypothetical example:

You have a group with 5 enemies in total. You could use your single target weapon to one shot all 5 of them, taking 5 shots in total, requiring you to aim individually.
OR
You could fire your explosive weapon (which doesn't one shot!), but 3-shots every target in your group, clearing the group faster than if you used your single target weapon.

All AoE weapons should be weaker than dedicated single-target weapons at the same power level (so Bramma should be stronger than regular Braton, obviously), because the point of them is to clear crowds faster than single-target weapons can, whereas your single-target weapons are more for taking down priority/harder targets.

It's just simple logic. An explosive weapon should not be stronger than single target weapons.

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2 hours ago, Kayll said:

This is just semantics at this point, no changes were done intentionally done to the Tombfinger correct,but was it changed for the worse? 

Except that said changes don't change or alter my original opinion of said weapon. The stats weren't changed either. A pointless knockback was added. That doesn't change my opinion that the weapon has terrible dps, even when used properly. 

Arguing semantics is fighting over word definitions. This is you arguing a point that neither makes any real sense, nor does it address the weapon at hand. It's an odd change. DE doesn't tend to do nerfs properly. 

If this isn't evidence for that, I don't know what is. 

2 hours ago, Kayll said:

Anyway I'm done arguing with brick walls, the weapon is in the hand's of DE and it seems like today they have made decisions to rectify some of the problems this weapon is causing to the game and for that I'm grateful.


If you were honest, you'd admit that you are as stubborn as I am. The only difference between you and I, is that I can recognize a bow is a bow, and a spade is a spade. I say things that make sense, while you rant about feelings. Take it easy, chief. 

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18 minutes ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

I saw the argument: "If an explosive weapon does less damage than single-target weapons, the explosive weapon is useless." This couldn't be more further from the truth. Let's take a hypothetical example:

You have a group with 5 enemies in total. You could use your single target weapon to one shot all 5 of them, taking 5 shots in total, requiring you to aim individually.
OR
You could fire your explosive weapon (which doesn't one shot!), but 3-shots every target in your group, clearing the group faster than if you used your single target weapon.

Except that single target weapons have on average anywhere between 8-10x the ammo capacity and shoot far faster. If single target weapons use 5 shots to kill said 5 enemies, you have enough ammo to do that same scenario 100 more times. (Average assault rifle ammo is 540. 

The AoE weapons in that scenario can do that typically 20 more times. Most launchers don't have more then 60-70 shots. Using the Zarr specifically, it would get a max of 140 kills. That makes assault rifles nearly 4x as efficient. 

Your logic is bass ackwards as you pepper the same enemies over and over again, instead of the intended effect of using a larger percentage of your ammo to kill a larger percentage of enemies. 

(With every shot, the Bramma fires 1/15th of its ammo. The average assault rifle fires anywhere between 1/100th of its ammo, or 1/540th of its ammo. Taking 3 shots to kill with the Bramma means that its using 1/5th of its ammo to kill what a single target weapon does using either 1/20th of its ammo, or 1/180th of its ammo. 

There is a reason that AoE weapons deal more damage then single target weapons. The Corrinth Prime is a perfect example of this. A single shot deals less base damage. The alt fire shoots an AoE blast. If the AoE isn't a more efficient method of killing, it's not going to be used. 

Your "hypothetical" falls further apart when it comes to sniper rifles. Said snipers have innate punch through. Can shoot through walls and multiple enemies at once. 

Maybe you should think about why AoE weapons with smaller ammo pools do more damage then any of the assault rifles, non explosive pistols, and damn near most of the sniper rifles. Almost like they are required to, or nobody is going to bother to charge up the ogris 3x, to kill a small group of enemies that assault rifles would have mowed down already. 

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On 2020-05-16 at 4:34 AM, Aadi880 said:

Been using the Bramma and its disgustingly strong. fk, there is no aspect that I can think of that it has a downfall in. Strong single target damage, strong AOE damage, Its ammo is not even a down fall because 15 ammo is more than enough to kill enough enemies to drop sniper ammo. Also, carrier exists.

I suggest the following changes.

  • Charge time increased by an additional 1 second.
  • Increase reload time by an additional 0.5 seconds.
  • Bomblets cannot proc status.
  • Main projectile has a 1 second delay in which it will explode. Will stick to targets.
  • Ammo capacity reduced to 10.
  • Reduce base damage by 10%

 

after nerfing it where is the fun for playing ?

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Saryn has been an AoE nuke for literal years, and every re-work DE does with her only tweaks how she nukes everything around her. DE also makes MORE explosive weapons that deal AoE damage. Then, on top of that? DE makes every AoE weapon in the game safer to use by removing self damage.

So... Nuke frames. In your opinion their existence somehow justifies the Bramma. Let's start by saying that Frost, Banshee and Mag doesn't have nearly the nuke potential Mesa, Equinox, Volt (to a lesser extent, he's very dependent on enemy density) and Saryn have. They fall off very quickly when entering higher levels. So, don't inflate your numbers. Secondly, those 4 frames are part of the problem. Pablo has already mentioned that Saryn needs changes. They are also old frames, relics of a time in which warframe's energy economy was very different than the unlimited abundance we currently experience. The plentiful nature of nukes now makes encounter design a total nightmare, and that's why you get bandaid mechanics such as cool downs in ESO, Arbitration drones, and Nullifiers to a lesser extent. DE clearly would like their units to do something instead of dying on spawn/sight because someone pressed 4 or shot the equivalent of an on demand thermonuclear warhead in their general direction.

They do need changes, because they completely invalidate other options (rather have enemies dead than CCed), much like the Bramma does.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Their feelings might get hurt, cause they think Warframe is a difficult skill based game.

Balanced =/= difficult. Yes, balance also creates an avenue for challenge, which is definitely something welcomed by a relevant portion of the community (see Steve's pools), but in essence it makes combat less braindead. If all options in the same power level are viable, with different strengths and weakness, that leaves room for choice. Which in turn, leads to specialization and more dynamic combat that revolves around the relationship between your equipment, its advantages and disadvantages, and the scenario you're up against. It doesn't need to be difficult. Just engaging, far from the current, single most viable strategy of just nuking everything with no aim nor thought.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Nothing about warframe is, or ever will be balanced. Ever. It's a horde shooter. Frames that can completely negate damage like Limbo, Nidus, Operator invisibility, Harrow, Nyx, Gara, Valkyr, Hydroid, Rhino, Revenant, Wukong and Zephyr aren't balanced.

Frames that can completely stop enemy movement, freeze them in place, slow them to a crawl, keep them suspended harmlessly in the air, mind control them, eat them, drown them, petrify them, sleep them, stun lock them, or have them follow a little musical ball that kills them isn't balanced.

The simple fact that you mentioned so many options just proves the point further. Variety is what makes Warframe, Warframe (a sentiment shared by the Devs as well, see Scot's and Pablo's interview). If everything is powerful in its own niche, and if mission design calls for multiple niches (unfortunately, disruption is currently the only game mode that approaches that logic), then you have something that works (see overwatch's motto, if everything's overpowered, everything is balanced). There needs to be limits to that power of course, being able to ignore damage altogether passively (inaros) and freezing and killing enemies without ever putting yourself at risk (Limbo) can damage gameplay by making it way too passive. Having powerful options is absolutely fine, as long as they don't dwarf variety by totally dominating on options that should supposedly have the same power.  

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

And you are already wrong. So. What is better? A gun with a light level of 960, or a 360 light level Gjallerhorn, or Black Spindel?

Oh wow. Have you even played it? Or is this willful ignorance once again? Since way back to The Taken King, everything is infusible. New releases just increase the power cap, older weapons can still be brought to endgame with no issues, through infusion. Yes, sometimes new guns have better stats/perks, but that isn't universally true. With every expansion there are maybe 3 or 4 guns that clearly outperform others of the same type, across 10+ weapon classes with at least 3 archetypes each, and even then they do not become the de-facto best in slot weapon for 95% of the activities, like the Bramma here does, because of the interactions between encounter design, enemy design and player equipment. 

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The bramma is the current equivalent to a max light level weapon on destiny 2. The Mk-1 braton is equivalent to the first submachine gun you get in destiny 1. The difference is that warframe's light levels aren't listed so people like you understand that this weapon is endgame.

Oh I just love the jabs you feel the necessity to throw at me. Warframe's light levels are listed... they are called Mastery Requirements. They aren't extremely rigid and lower rank weapons at times outperform higher rank ones, but they are still there. The Bramma, apart from having no Mastery requirement whatsoever (even if it's mr15 locked you can claim it if you vanquish a lich at any mr), is not the equivalent of a max light weapon, it's more the equivalent of a pre-nerf Recluse, if Recluse had explosive rounds. So powerful in all activities, both PvP and PvE, that not having it equipped was effectively a handicap. Your comparison also immediately falls apart as soon as you consider that both the Kuva Tonkor and the Kuva Ogris, weapons that come from the same source, with equal (although fictitious) MR requirement, and equal archetype (explosive launchers), have less damage (Bramma has 800 just with the base explosion, Tonkor and Ogris have <700), less sustained fire rate, less explosion radius, less critical chance, less status potential, that compensate for what, exactly? Bramma having the 2nd quickest charge time of all bows? Justifying something being overpowered and far better than other "endgame weapons" in terms of acquisition by calling them... "endgame weapons" is just ridiculous.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Variety, only matters with special snowflakes like you.

Then I guess the Devs are special snowflakes. They've publicly stated that one of their criteria for nerfing is whenever something becomes the single best option by far, reducing variety. 

Your last tangent is summarized as "people like stuff, so said stuff is untouchable" followed by "I like the meta, so the meta is untouchable". There probably is an issue if the only primaries seen around non-boss activities are Ignis, Acceletra and Bramma... and that cannot be solved with buffing other weapons, because they are so mechanically different, and simply inferior (Unrestricted AoE is always more efficient than single target), that they'll never compete. So either DE switches its entire weapon design to an AoE spamfest with enemy design to match, or the outliers need to change if this game's coop combat and endgame combat in general wants to be enjoyable in the slightest. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except that single target weapons have on average anywhere between 8-10x the ammo capacity and shoot far faster. If single target weapons use 5 shots to kill said 5 enemies, you have enough ammo to do that same scenario 100 more times. (Average assault rifle ammo is 540. 

The AoE weapons in that scenario can do that typically 20 more times. Most launchers don't have more then 60-70 shots. Using the Zarr specifically, it would get a max of 140 kills. That makes assault rifles nearly 4x as efficient. 

Except you are completely ignoring how plentiful ammo is in this game. And the fact that all weapons have free modding real estate for ammo mutations. And that carrier exists. If that is not willful ignorance I don't know what is. There are so many options to circumvent the ammo economy entirely that this isn't even an argument.

Edited by (XB1)ShonFr0st
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Posted (edited)

Kuva Bramma is undergoing some changes in next upcoming update.

 

19 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno -

If you’ve been plugged into the community discourse since the self damage changes, you’ll have seen a lot of discussions about the Kuva Bramma. 

What makes this formerly self-damaging weapon so much more dominant than the others?

It has quickly taken the place at the top of the usage charts - which is where it should be given its acquisition - but the degree of dominance (about 3 times more popular than anything else) is not something we feel is good for the primary weapon Arsenal options.

We are changing it so that:

- It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere
- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
- Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m
- Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

We will be monitoring feedback after these changes go live to ensure we’ve struck a better balance of having a powerful weapon - but not one that overshadows everything else in the game to the detriment of your squadmates.

You will see these changes in Update 28: The Deadlock Protocol, and we can discuss feedback once they are in your hands.

Until then, Tenno! 

 

Edited by BlindStalker
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