Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

So... Nuke frames. In your opinion their existence somehow justifies the Bramma.

They absolutely do. The weapon is balanced in terms of what other warframe powers can provide. Bramma doesn't infinitely scale like Saryn's Viral procs, or Octavia's mallet. Also doesn't hold up to Banshee's resonating soundquake. 

DO you know why? First off. Name me a single person who has complained about the Bramma's performance on higher level enemies. Show me a discussion where people mentioned what enemies the Bramma one shots, and what level enemies it takes for it not to. If people cared about "balance" there would be a base threshold of "balance". And the weapon would be adjusted as necessary. 

I can go into hydron, or any star chart map where low level players congregate. I can one shot level 30 enemies all day. Get to any real content. Any enemy with level 70 and above. Suddenly the Bramma isn't as much of an issue. Doing a kuva survival solo myself. About at the 30 minute mark, several enemies starting taking more then a couple of shots. (This is because the Bramma has a steep damage falloff. Suddenly losing 50-90% of its damage doesn't kill anymore. 

Meanwhile, Saryn's Miasma does full damage to every enemy in radius. Octavia does full damage to any enemy that cit hit her mallet. Banshee can simply use her ability to amplify damage. They are good to go as long as they want. 

So good attempt at defending your terrible logic. Alas. Terrible logic remains terrible.

8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

They do need changes, because they completely invalidate other options (rather have enemies dead than CCed), much like the Bramma does.

Incorrect on both accounts. 

Warframe is an MMO. It routinely makes weapons, warframes, mods, and so forth that routinely invalidate other options. Secondly. The Bramma has quite a few flaws. The bramma is about the worst weapon you could bring to fight weapoint based bosses. It's also terrible for any enemy that isn't just cannon fodder. 

There is no point in bringing a Bramma in any raid fight, several boss fights, it is terrible in opinion maps like Fortuna and Plains. The truth of the matter is that the Bramma only excels in mundane missions where people like you get your feelings hurt that a weapon is popular. 

I've had this same discussion only a dozen times with people who share your opinion. And to this day, not a single intelligent response has been responded to me about this. 

All guns being equal is boring. ALl guns being the same level of power would mean I could quit the game for 7 years, come back and still have arguably the best gear in the game. 

Testing weapons out like the Bramma. I found it is quite outdamaged by weapons like the Rubico. So while the Bramma is good for AoE (until the Bramma gets nerfed into the dust on consoles) there are much better alternatives for the Bramma if you even try looking. 

Acceltra for example is better at quickly killing lower level enemies. The Rubico is better for killing higher level enemies. Both have more ammo. Both can hit weakpoints the Bramma can't. Both weapons have comparable or superior dps. 

So when you say completely invalidates other options... You'd be wrong. It invalidates some options. But it's another powerful gun. There will be other guns like the Bramma that people like you cry out about in the future. Only to ruin others people's fun and ultimately remove fun from the game as the Bramma gets tossed on the shelf of ex meta weapons. 

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Balanced =/= difficult. Yes, balance also creates an avenue for challenge, which is definitely something welcomed by a relevant portion of the community (see Steve's pools), but in essence it makes combat less braindead. If all options in the same power level are viable, with different strengths and weakness, that leaves room for choice.

And completely incorrect again. 

Unbalanced games can both be more and less difficult then balanced games. Imagine if Dark Souls had the bosses you fight die in the same few hits that you die to. Imagine if games like Monster Hunter had the enormous creatures die in only a few powerful hits. 

Monster hunter currently has the endgame monsters have anywhere between 50,000-60,000 health in multiplayer. The average hunter has between 100-200 health. The strongest of monsters can instantly kill hunters with their attacks. 

Brain dead is what you get when all options are "equally viable" and so people choose to get the easiest to acquire option. Shooting enemies with my acceltra, tigris prime, rubico prime, using a nuke warframe, using a melee or using a pistol is all the same level of brain dead. There's no difference in the action of pulling a trigger. The enemies are open and easy targets. They stand out in the open with movements that make them easy to predict and attack. The vast amount of abilities included in warframe that automatically hit all enemies in range, or hit enemies in an area 

(Exalted Blade, Radial Javelin, Pull, Polarize, Crush, Radial Disarm, Miasma, Avalanche, Peacemaker, Pyschic Bolts, Absorb, Discharge, Mallet, Rumblers, Fireblast, Inferno, Maim & Mend Seeking Talons, Pillage, Aegis Storm, Feast, Divine Spears and any other ability that auto targets, or simply has such an effective radius that aiming it is done nigh automatically, makes every gun, every ability, equally braindead. 

Warframe isn't a game about skill. It's not a game about difficulty either. Its a game about loadouts. It's a diablo loot shooter horde based killer. The only "non" braindead aspects of warframe is strictly locked behind PvP where you have to shoot, dodge and fight better then another human. 

The infinitely scaling AI will never be anything less then brain dead, till warframe impliments enemies that have the same agility, the same power, and the same menace that players have. 

(A bullet jumping, dodge rolling, accurate stalker.) 

Try saying something close to correct for once. 

 

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

Firstly, I find it extremely amusing how you decided to ignore the second half of my previous post, the one addressing your blatantly wrong informations about Destiny's weapons system, your concept of "endgame weapon", the Dev's view on nerfing and Warframe's ammo economy. And on top of that, you have the audacity to still claim I'm "completely incorrect" without providing anything substantial.

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

They absolutely do. The weapon is balanced in terms of what other warframe powers can provide. Bramma doesn't infinitely scale like Saryn's Viral procs, or Octavia's mallet. Also doesn't hold up to Banshee's resonating soundquake. 

Again, you are comparing rotten apples to rotten apples. You cannot use Saryn, another frame destined to nerfs and clearly overboard in terms of power, to justify the existence of another weapon, overboard in terms of power. They are both damaging to Warframe's gameplay, through the invalidation of other options in the same power level that should be equal to it (and I'll get to why later). Also, you keep mentioning resonating sound quake. Which is funny, because that thing, even at 250% strength, can't one shot a lvl 50 lancer in the epicenter (I took the numbers from the damage calculators on the wiki), and is widely considered worthless.

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

First off. Name me a single person who has complained about the Bramma's performance on higher level enemies. Show me a discussion where people mentioned what enemies the Bramma one shots, and what level enemies it takes for it not to.

Buddy, we are on a thread about Bramma being op. Just search through it, there are multiple examples.

Other examples:

Bramma 2 shotting lvl 120 heavy gunners, without a riven, without buffs (time stamp around 8:50)

Spoiler

 

Oh, here is a whole thread discussing about why unchecked AoE and some frames are damaging to the game. Enjoy the 64 pages discussion.

Spoiler

 

I'd like you to focus on the first video in particular. Bramma almost 1 shots through bleed procs EIGHT of the toughest units in the game, supposed "heavies". At the maximum level in which rewards are relevant: lvl 5 liches and sortie 3 stop even before 120, and there is no point in terms of gameplay to go beyond lvl 100 unless you go for endurance, which yields no particular rewards and which isn't the focus of the game as DE stated multiple times. No other weapon does that. Yes, the Rubico Prime which you mention so often, with a Headshot, can bleed to death a single heavy gunner. Except it requires an headshot, and it kills a single enemy. The Bramma kills everything in its radius, with no aim. And hitting heads in the simulacrum with enemies standing still isn't exactly mission accurate...

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Warframe is an MMO. It routinely makes weapons, warframes, mods, and so forth that routinely invalidate other options.

Not with tools in the same power level. A top tier charge blade in Monster Hunter is generally as effective as a top tier dual sword. A top tier Handcannon in Destiny is as generally as effective as a top tier scout rifle, in their respective ranges. Same thing with snipers and shotguns in that game. If there were massive expansion that clearly raised the power level of players AND enemies you'd be right. Except this never happens in warframe:

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

All guns being equal is boring. ALl guns being the same level of power would mean I could quit the game for 7 years, come back and still have arguably the best gear in the game. 

You definitely can. Even right now. If you left now and came back in 2 years, you'd still be able to blaze through any content. You see, we've been stuck having lvl 100 enemies as a ceiling for activities ever since sorties were released. Endurance exists, but there's no point in doing it, it's way more efficient to exit the mission and begin it again. All meaningful activities in the game stop at around level 100. And even some of the worst equipment in this game can take care of level 100 enemies just fine. There's no need for this so-called power progression you ask for, because there's no enemy challenge to back that up. Do you know what power progression without enemy progression is called? Power creep. Which is universally recognized as terrible for any game, because it destroys gameplay mechanics and makes combat grow stale. Whenever Destiny releases a higher power cap, enemies grow in power and match that cap. Whenever WoW releases an expansion with items yielding better stats, enemies become way more damaging and survivable. Whenever Monster Hunter releases new gear, it is accompanied by a new rank of monsters (be it Master Rank or G rank, tempered or arch-tempered) to keep up with the players. Meanwhile, Warframe keeps releasing more and more powerful gear, that isn't needed for any activity, while its acquisition method remains accessible to everyone and enemies stay the same. That means newer players will completely skip any sort of progression and get that easy, top tier prize that trivializes the whole experience. It's very interesting when MR 9 players run around with a Bramma. 

I'm not asking for every weapon, every piece of gear from MR0 to MR15 to be the same in terms of power, but for there to be clear power levels, reflected in MR requirements, in which all weapons are viable, specialized and competitive. Because otherwise, you either play as a meta slave with those 2 or 3 top tier options and forgo what you like, or you play hallway simulator whenever you try to engage in the "co-op" part of the game. Which you know, is the focus of the experience. 

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The bramma is about the worst weapon you could bring to fight weapoint based bosses.

Oh, because those are relevant. Profit Taker was basically Dead on arrival despite being by far the most engaging boss in the game, because there were no decent rewards tied to it. Eidolons have no purpose anymore since Scarlet Spear crashed the arcane market. All starchart bosses get played until you get the associated frame, and then are forgotten forever. Even if they were somehow relevant, those are 3 activities out of what, 20+ gamemodes? Fissures, Kuva Siphons, Sorties and Alerts, the main course of the "endgame content", are still part of those "mundane missions where people like [me] get [their] feelings hurt that a weapon is popular".

In the following paragraphs you show yet again how you have zero clue on how to calculate the effectiveness of an explosive weapon... Their DPS gets multiplied by the number of enemies in range. Which, considering the horde shooter nature of the game, and the massive AoE, is generally 5 of more. That's anywhere between a 2.5x and a 5x multiplier in DPS, depending on fall-off. And that doesn't even consider the difference in ease of use between an AoE weapon and a precision weapon, that very likely requires headshots. That's why AoE in a horde shooter needs to be properly restricted, otherwise any precision weapon just gets shelved. And you can easily see this process at work in most missions, barely no-one runs around with Rubicos or Tiberons or any other rifle, all you see is ignis, Acceltra, Nukor, Catchmoon, Bramma, and high range melees, paired with a Nuke or Immortal frame. That is boring. Not having choices and specializing your load out to fit a role, like you seem to be implying. 

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

And completely incorrect again. 

Unbalanced games can both be more and less difficult then balanced games. Imagine if Dark Souls had the bosses you fight die in the same few hits that you die to. Imagine if games like Monster Hunter had the enormous creatures die in only a few powerful hits. 

Monster hunter currently has the endgame monsters have anywhere between 50,000-60,000 health in multiplayer. The average hunter has between 100-200 health. The strongest of monsters can instantly kill hunters with their attacks. 

What in the world are you talking about? Where am I saying that for the game to be balanced, enemies and players need to deal the same amount of damage or have the same health? I'm really questioning your comprehension abilities. I'll explain what balance looks like and why it is important one more time, eventually it will stick. If options in the same power level are balanced, and differ only for particular, distinct strengths or weaknesses (Launchers being powerful against cannon fodder but pretty weak against any heavy units, or being trump cards that offer extreme power at the expense of availability, rifles being the middle ground, focused weapons like snipers being effective against heavy units, etc..) without overlaps (like the Bramma being universally the best gun for killing anything and being constantly available), specialization can happen, and with that a co-op experience in which everyone has something to do, that doesn't devolve into watching the nuke player annihilating everything while you read a book.

Since you talk a lot about Monster Hunter, just look at how that game handles weapons. There are specific power tiers. At the highest tier, every weapon has overall similar effectiveness, but they specialize in different aspects: some weapon classes might have exclusive elements or ailments, and in general those very classes offer different, but equally effective, playstyles. The great sword gives periodical, risky, but extremely powerful heavy strikes. The longsword provide fluid combat with sustained dps. The dual blades provide agility and burst Dps, but lack defense. Charge Blade gives very high defense and offense, but the latter is locked behind fairly long procedures that require skill. Ranged options give safety and utility at the expense of damage. There's no single weapon, tool or group of weapons that trumps all other options. 

13 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Warframe isn't a game about skill. It's not a game about difficulty either. Its a game about loadouts. It's a diablo loot shooter horde based killer. The only "non" braindead aspects of warframe is strictly locked behind PvP where you have to shoot, dodge and fight better then another human.

Horde shooter doesn't directly imply braindead. Vanquish, Payday, and Killing floor are examples of that. Relegating Warframe to a braindead combat experience exclusively finalized to collecting shiny things is reductive, and an insult to its potential. Warframe can be engaging, fun, and even challenging. Some changes are needed, and nerfing outliers that clearly step outside the bounds of their power level is the first step. And it is a necessary step. The game is plagued by a constant torrent of veteran players leaving, because rightfully, after obtaining a lot of powerful gear, they have literally nothing to use it on, and gameplay isn't intrinsically rewarding enough through its mechanics to be enough of a factor alone to keep players playing. There are no fights to optimize, no bosses to speed run (except profit taker), the only thing left for vets is running tedious, hour long endurances that just exploit broken mechanics (Octavia, Limbo stasis, perma-invisibility).

DE has kept going until now because the influx of new players is high through marketing, but that won't last forever... The slow yet steady decline of the player base on steam charts since the old blood is a worrying symptom of a deep rooted problem of the game.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Oh, here is a whole thread discussing about why unchecked AoE and some frames are damaging to the game. Enjoy the 64 pages discussion.

I was in that thread, good times.

1 hour ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Horde shooter doesn't directly imply braindead. Vanquish, Payday, and Killing floor are examples of that.

Killing Floor especially, each class doesn't trivialize any other, they all work together on things, though they also have the ability to deal with everything on their own, they often need some tactics to get around it (once saw a Commando solo a Scrake with an AK, it was amazing) so everything is viable for dealing with things and are only made stronger working together.

Meanwhile in Warframe...players literally have to race each other to even contribute to killing things, one person can do the work of 4 effortlessly and the concept of "Support" frames is literally not a thing outside of a very limited set of content. There are no checks and balances to anything, some might argue that self-damage was one, but in reality it was just a deterrent from using the weapons at all, which just pushed nuke frames harder.

Warframe lately is less like a horde shooter and more like freaking Cookie Clicker, considering how easy it is to left click your way through a mission, meanwhile people go to level 1000+ and say it is much better, when in reality it just devolves into rocket tag, where you either obliterate the enemy instantly or you get insta-killed instead.

[-Sandman]

The irony is that the next cheese is just gonna be released, left unchecked and cashed in on until threads like these completely overtake the forums; as it has been in the past and so will be in the future. If you want to deal with the root cause, then how about deal with why is there a need/perceived need for it and why does it come into being in the first place rather than just dealing with the cheese of the day? Otherwise for eternity we will be arguing about why "ITEM X" needs to be nerfed. 

[FairnessJustifie]

Why do so many people ask for nerf on a gun when it's strong? If it does a lot of damage and it bothers you then just don't use it, this game is PVE, asking for nerf in PVE games is the same as shooting yourself in the foot. Bramma is perfectly balanced by the difficulty of achieving and the necessary MR to use, now give nerf by reducing the ammunition by one third, reducing the explosions by less than half, is ridiculous. They are giving more importance to the opinion of people who did not even have the effort to get it, than to the opinion of the people who spent hours and hours in the game to get something that was really worthwhile. Do you want players to use other weapons? Okay, it's simple, make the other weapons strong as they should be, stop killing any weapons that are good please.

[-Sandman]

7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

The game is plagued by a constant torrent of veteran players leaving, because rightfully, after obtaining a lot of powerful gear, they have literally nothing to use it on, and gameplay isn't intrinsically rewarding enough through its mechanics to be enough of a factor alone to keep players playing. There are no fights to optimize, no bosses to speed run (except profit taker), the only thing left for vets is running tedious, hour long endurances that just exploit broken mechanics (Octavia, Limbo stasis, perma-invisibility).

The fact of existence of one powerful gear item is still not the reason for what you describe there, as if in the case of this thread, Bramma is removed then people will just use the next best thing and still get disinterested after completing the content. I am a veteran who left and only recently returned and I can speak for the others who I know who left also, in that the reason was not that overpowered gear made the game not challenging enough but simply not enough content or not interesting enough content. Reducing the power of my gear / increasing the stats of the enemy, only makes completing that content take longer, not necessarily making it more interesting, this for me is akin to just making the drop rate of something lower so that I may take longer to acquire it. A good example of the above was with the LOR raids; even though the builds and mods did take a fair bit of grind to achieve, with simple matchmaking and some coordination it was easily completed, yet it still kept interest of my group for years, it's not the difficulty level that kept us interested. 

As I stated before nitpicking on single instances will not solve the problem as the complaints will simply shift to the next best thing that doesn't agree with your play-style or vision of balance. 

 

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

1 minute ago, -Sandman said:

The fact of existence of one powerful gear item is still not the reason for what you describe there, as if in the case of this thread, Bramma is removed then people will just use the next best thing and still get disinterested after completing the content. I am a veteran who left and only recently returned and I can speak for the others who I know who left also, in that the reason was not that overpowered gear made the game not challenging enough but simply not enough content or not interesting enough content. Reducing the power of my gear / increasing the stats of the enemy, only makes completing that content take longer, not necessarily making it more interesting, this for me is akin to just making the drop rate of something lower so that I may take longer to acquire it. A good example of the above was with the LOR raids; even though the builds and mods did take a fair bit of grind to achieve, with simple matchmaking and some coordination it was easily completed, yet it still kept interest of my group for years. 

As I stated before nitpicking on single instances will not solve the problem as the complaints will simply shift to the next best thing that doesn't agree with your play-style or vision of balance. 

Of course it is not the main reason, but it is certainly part of the bigger problem.

Quote

in that the reason was not that overpowered gear made the game not challenging enough but simply not enough content or not interesting enough content.

Emphasis mine. 

That last part is a direct result of the first. Interesting content is way too hard to design when abilities and weapons can literally shut down game mechanics. Mainly enemies. How can you make a fun encounter with hordes of enemies, if said hordes can be nuked instants after they spawn? And if you balance those hordes around nuking mechanics, how in the world can you complete that content without being forced in a nuke meta? How can you make an interesting boss, if said boss can be instantly annihilated by a damage-buffing frame? And if you balance the boss around buffing mechanics, how would you hope to kill the boss in an acceptable time without being forced into a tight meta? Warframe has no middle ground, no place to balance around because of the wild, absurd numbers abilities and weapons have. As such, DE just ignores their veterans and caters to newer players by providing accessible, easy content that grows stale the moment you complete it for the first time, leaving older players with nothing to do but complain on the forums. 

Will nerfing the Bramma magically solve Warframe's combat and encounter design? God no. it's but a small step towards the right direction, that also entails massive revamps of mission and enemy design to promote counters to the players and more diverse moment to moment gameplay, that incentivizes alternative play styles to the usual obliteration of everything in a 40m radius around you. Is it feasible? Probably not, honestly. Is the game being broken a good reason to break it even further? I really don't think so.

[-Sandman]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Of course it is not the main reason, but it is certainly part of the bigger problem.

I think that as clearly articulated throughout this and the threads like it is really subject to opinion. For example - I would like to consider myself a fairly strong player with over 1500 hours logged, and my opinion is that with my playstyle and mods available to me, I don't find the Bramma to be that game breaking when looking at mission results, in fact I can't think of any type of mission where I used the Bramma alone that I had close to the most kills. See how subjective this can be?

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

That last part is a direct result of the first. Interesting content is way too hard to design when abilities and weapons can literally shut down game mechanics. 

I don't agree with that and my raid example is pertinent to that. The mechanics of the mission did not solely revolve around how fast you can shoot/kill the boss, and many mechanics currently in game are similar and as I said, for me, the length of time I take to down a boss does not make it more or less interesting. And designing and building those types of mechanics are not insurmountable either. Even if we were to focus more on a subsection of a fight, namely the vulnerability period: If when soloing an Eidolon to the point where it takes me quite a few more shots to destroy a node, that does not make it more interesting for me than when I am in squad where it gets one shot. And even if the one shotting was an issue for me, I would simply make my own squad accordingly rather than lobby for all players to conform to my style; which is further exacerbated by the fact that acquisition and refinement of the items required to produce that result is time consuming and not the same as say... having to press a different key. This type of argument is self defeating in my opinion; it's dissonant to say something is negatively impacting my experience so I want it removed/changed but the result just means it ends up negatively impacting someone else's player experience with no option for them to revert.    

If the changes were actually lasting, meaningful and well thought out and dealt with the root causes then it would be more understandable to the people it disenfranchised. A good example of this was the introduction of relics, some people found the old void system more satisfying and fun but at least this change was more sustainable and arguably solved a lot of the drop table issues, and that made it more acceptable to those who were and still are not agreeable to it. A simple nerf on the other hand? This doesn't achieve the same type of results. 

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Will nerfing the Bramma magically solve Warframe's combat and encounter design? 

I don't think the track record of buffs and nerfs over the years supports this argument. In the past we have had many many items that were perceived as overpowered in this very same way and adjusting them did not prevent recurrence in any way. This is only treating with the symptoms and not the root causes. Make no mistake I am not against having balanced gear and enemies, but I have a serious problem with these band aid measures and especially how they arrive at it. Obviously there will be no way to please 100% of the playerbase but they way these balances are done now, its not democratic, not systematic and not sustainable. 

[OmegaVoid]

Somebody said they don't like pickles, and then nobody gets to have pickles?

Not sure how that relates to the matter of nerfing/not nerfing the Bramma... but it reminds me strongly of the recent removal of self-damage from the game. 😒

[-AncientWarrior-]

On 2020-06-09 at 8:40 AM, Umbranoir said:

Thanks bro. It wasn't an easy experience.

Counter point: At no point am I forcing anyone to eat pickles in this hypothetical situation. If I WAS armed with a pickle jar and getting ready to start cramming then why, voluntarily, would you stay in that situation when the Warframe household gives you the opportunity to leave at anytime and find a pickle-less room also why are my favourite pickle-themed antics worth less than your pickle-less high-jinks?

Bro, beautifully said .. that is pure art my Tenno.. 

[GPrime96]

10 hours ago, Aldain said:

I Meanwhile in Warframe...players literally have to race each other to even contribute to killing things, one person can do the work of 4 effortlessly and the concept of "Support" frames is literally not a thing outside of a very limited set of content. There are no checks and balances to anything, some might argue that self-damage was one, but in reality it was just a deterrent from using the weapons at all, which just pushed nuke frames harder.

^^

[Umbranoir]

2 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Somebody said they don't like pickles, and then nobody gets to have pickles?

Not sure how that relates to the matter of nerfing/not nerfing the Bramma... but it reminds me strongly of the recent removal of self-damage from the game. 😒

Oh my sweet chalupa.

It is a not-so cleverly disguised metaphor for the nerf-culture that has plagued Warframe for some time now. Instead of making the game harder and providing a more engaging mid-to-late game damage economy. A portion of the playerbase complains about a topic (Usually it is something like 'This is too hard, I can't do it, pls nerf' when the content in question is otherwise easy for people that have the experience/weaponry/mods geared out to handle the content but not for newer players) and then that gets nerfed so the people who were enjoying the content and the increase in difficulty (Even if it was a minute bump to some) no longer have that. It seems the game is adamant in making a new-player friendly experience instead of fleshing out the late-game where in other games the staying to play aspect is built on higher-level play and rewards for the higher-end gameplay, Warframe frequently attempts to add something of that degree but ultimately doubles back on it because of people finding the content too difficult because it is immediately accessible to all players with little to no hurdle to overcome. 

Arbitrations: Complete the star-chart typically requires mastery rank 5 minimum. Can be achieved within a week of playing. (Now I understand that you'd have to be determined to play to get those Mastery ranks but considering as rank 0 to 30 can be done in a single mission and matchmaking is automatic you could get mastery rank 5 in 3 missions theoretically. MR 5 is 62500 mastery. 1 warframe, a Primary, secondary and melee weapon, a sentinel and a sentinel weapon is 24000 mastery. Only gate is the 24hr timer between MR level ups and you can skip build-times by rushing or paying outright.)

Elite sanctuary onslaught:  Granted not really a hard mission node, but all it requires is a rank 30 warframe. Day 1 of playing.

Railjack: Day 1 of playing

Kuva Liches: War within complete MR 5, min week of playing.

So in the case of the Pickles. The person who doesn't like the pickles (Person who complains about not liking something due to ability or difficulty) doesn't want pickles (And they are well within their right to) but ultimately dooms the people who DO like pickles to have no pickles (Players who enjoy harder difficulty or the mechanics and play of a weapon/warframe).

2 hours ago, -AncientWarrior- said:

Bro, beautifully said .. that is pure art my Tenno.. 

There's nothing quite like the serenity of those delicious green burger-inserts.

[Aldain]

Me to DE:

[The-Toby]

I love bramma it is great for lvling my stuff. I think brama is fine where it is.

[MacIntoc]

It would be awesome if players that dislike the Bramma could say to the game "I don't want to see the Bramma" and the game would remove the Bramma from its public missions.

[Thrymm]

It would be awesome if anybody could give an actual, real justification for not nerfing it.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the "Hey, don't nerf my obviously and grossly overpowered weapon cuz I like it" as too much of a good reason.  Is it not overpowered?  Are the claims of overpowered purely anecdotal?  Please do keep in mind that we not only all have one so we can see the same thing everybody else does(there's nothing that can be claimed that we can't test), but those of us that have been around have watched as similar AE dominator type weapons have virtually all taken a good hard hit with the nerf bat.

It's not like a pickle, it's like a limburger.  The person eating it might like it, but it sucks for everyone around them.  It's like a day old tuna melt in the office microwave.  It's like waiting until you're all stuck in line to pass gas.  Sure, we can all use a different break room, or we can use good common sense and realize that there isn't any place for this stuff around other people and not do that.

This weapon dilutes all the rest of your primaries, and causes you to not use your secondaries or melee weapons because there's simply nothing left to kill with them.  It's an obvious candidate for a power reduction.  It basically ticks all the boxes on the "is this the kind of thing that gets nerfed" checklist.  So much so that people actually bother to make "don't nerf me bro" threads because they can see it coming clearly on the horizon.

 Nobody would be looking for reductions if we didn't put the exact same overpowered weapon(you know, the risk free room clearer weapon) that subsequently gets nerfed in the game over and over again in the first place.  We've seen it with the tonkor, the telos boltace, the simulor, the maiming strike mod.  This style of weapon begs for nerfs.  We need them to stop showing up in a condition that basically guarantees it'll happen.

 

[MacIntoc]

2 hours ago, Thrymm said:

It would be awesome if anybody could give an actual, real justification for not nerfing it.

Because DE launched it as is and if they had made a balancing error, they would have corrected it long before.

 

2 hours ago, Thrymm said:

This weapon dilutes all the rest of your primaries, and causes you to not use your secondaries or melee weapons because there's simply nothing left to kill with them.

It don't dilute my primaries. And i make far more kill than any Bramma players i've seen without using a mass killer warframe (nor the Bramma, of course). Any melee weapon can easily outperform the Bramma.

 

3 hours ago, Thrymm said:

It's an obvious candidate for a power reduction.  It basically ticks all the boxes on the "is this the kind of thing that gets nerfed" checklist.  So much so that people actually bother to make "don't nerf me bro" threads because they can see it coming clearly on the horizon.

No, only since DE has annouced the nerf. But it's true that a few (including me) have seen the nerf coming when the complaints accumulated because of an alleged overpowering of this weapon.

 

3 hours ago, Thrymm said:

We've seen it with the tonkor, the telos boltace, the simulor, the maiming strike mod. 

Except that DE have nerfed them not because they are overpowered but because they are overused in there time. But i bet that if they revert now the nerf of the weapons you're taking in exemple, the Bramma will not be overused anymore in few days/weeks.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2020-06-10 at 3:16 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Firstly, I find it extremely amusing how you decided to ignore the second half of my previous post,

Cause 99% of what you say is blatantly incorrect with only literally dozens of examples to the contrary. Yet your "willful ignorance" waves them away. I really couldn't be bothered to read anymore. I can pick up where I left off if you care about it so much. 

For whatever reason, You fail, refuse, or simply not aware that that "balance" isn't something that exists in Warframe. If the Bramma is such a cancerous issue that you act it is, all weapons, frames, and gear with similar capabilities would be removed. 

Try as you might, you won't find any reasonable logic that allows infinite scaling damage, blatant immortality, 30 Meter AoE's, Permanent damage reduction, but disallows an explosive bow such as the bramma. 

In other words. I can explain to you why 2+2=4 all day. I can explain to you why 30 meter radius or greater AoEs with additional effects (Stuns, knockbacks, Slash Viral or Corrosive Procs, is superior in every way to an explosive shot with a maximum of 90% falloff. 

For Example. A resonating Quake Banshee can get a 66 meter radius. (The entire map on some defense maps.) And wipe the entire map with a single press of her 4. For tougher enemies, she can use sonar first for damage boost then continue to nuke. There's no point where Banshee's damage is reduced as much as the Bramma's. Meanwhile the Banshee is hitting only every enemy that is remotely in the area. 

A Bramma on the other hand shoots on average of 2-3 arrows. Most shots won't hit more then 5-6 enemies. 

Thus I am left to conclude your opinion is not based on logic. You just hate the meta. I haven't seen a single person post a video or evidence where they are legitimately prevented from gameplay by the bramma. (I'm sure somebody could fake some hard enough if they tried-) 

 

On 2020-06-10 at 3:16 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Again, you are comparing rotten apples to rotten apples. You cannot use Saryn, another frame destined to nerfs and clearly overboard in terms of power, to justify the existence of another weapon,

I absolutely can. Just like I can compare exalted blade, artemis bow, valkyr's hysteria and other exalted weapons to their weapon counterparts. I can compare Warframe AoE, to weapon AoE. 

The only difference between the two is playstyle. Having warframe's with viable AoE powers gives a playstyle alternative. Otherwise it's a 1 to 1 comparison. Warframe's as a whole have massively better AoE that ranges from Auto Targeting. (Mesa, Garuda, Excaliber's Radial Javelin Etc) to Banshee's nearly 70 meter resonating quake. 

Weapons and offensive warframe powers fulfill the same purpose. They are both a mod-able tool at the player's disposal to dispatch enemies. This is your own willful ignorance on display. 

Sorry, Chief. Your logic doesn't add up. You would make a far more persuasive argument if you accepted that there is no functional difference between warframe aoe, and weapon aoe. 

But then you would have to tackle the fact that Saryn has been "Due" for a nerf for years. Yet she's only gotten stronger. Remember when Miasma wasn't applying its damage increase under Spores properly? 

They cut the damage of base Miasma and added the damage interaction with spores, yet here you are still complain. Maybe take the hint. Maybe admit you are 100% wrong. Will DE probably tweak Saryn in the future? Perhaps. Yet if the previous reworks of Saryn are anything to go by, Her AoE power isn't going anywhere. 

Just like Banshee's AoE. Or Equinox. Or Octavia. Or Mesa. 

17 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Interesting content is way too hard to design when abilities and weapons can literally shut down game mechanics.

Ah. This is how I know you know nothing. 

You posted this in response to a post about the Warframe Raids. The warframe raids were a series of content that tear apart your entire point. 

Raid bosses do the same thing. If you ever participated in Law of Retribution; You would know that AoE weapons were useless. Killing enemies just made more spawn infinitely make things worse. It was far better to CC enemies then proceed. The first two missions of the LoR raid required objectives completed. You could bring the strongest weapon possible for the final boss. 

Wouldn't do anything till you brought Hek's shields down. The bramma only makes low level farms faster. If you think weapons shut down game mechanics, you are a low level player who has never done high level content before. 

Good luck killing hydrolyst, with a bramma. Try to graduate from low level farms. 

On 2020-06-10 at 3:16 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Buddy, we are on a thread about Bramma being op. Just search through it, there are multiple examples.

Bramma 2 shotting lvl 120 heavy gunners, without a riven, without buffs

Yup. You are a low level player. A 0 forma lenz can 1 shot a level 120 corrupted heavy gunner. 
 

No Riven. Not even a maxed out point strike. Three mod slots are pure empty. I could only add like some 12,000 viral damage to this if I wanted too. 

This video highlights the difference between you and I. 

You are impressed with a fully modded bramma killing level 120 gunners. Me? I can only do the very same thing with just a 0 forma Lenz lol. You either don't know how to mod weapons. Or you have no idea the power other weapons can get to in warframe. (Probably both.) 

So despite other weapons being fully capable of working all the way to level 120 gunners, you are gonna complain that the Bramma alone is ruining your farms huh? Maybe you should spend less time complaining, and more time getting good lol. 

[ES-Flinter]

@(PS4)UltraKardas did you compare the bramma with a frame? A weapon with a character? 

Alone that you are comparing the user with his tool is a proof that there is something wrong with it.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

 

And now do the same with the bramma. And than you repeat this test but with activated AI and no invincibility and try to play like in a survival mission. Be efficient. And increase the enemy level to 150. On this way there should be a higher differnce.

[Thrymm]

5 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

Because DE launched it as is and if they had made a balancing error, they would have corrected it long before.

Haha, thank you.  I needed the laugh, but I'm sorry that you're mistaken on this because when you haven't been around awhile, I totally sympathise with a person believing that it might be the case.  DE very often takes months to get a nerf done, it's pretty much the norm.  Maiming Strike was absurd and completely destroyed the play of melee weapons in general, and diluted the usage of virtually all primaries and secondaries and that mechanic was around for...what?  A year and a half?  They think that balancing Riven dispositions on the Prime Access cycle is faster and more effective, which means when it's off you've got that whole period to live with the issue.  There is ALWAYS a balance issue of some sort floating around in this game, and DE recognizing and acting upon an error happens at an amazingly slow pace, especially for a company that is usually so responsive to player input.

 

5 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

It don't dilute my primaries. And i make far more kill than any Bramma players i've seen without using a mass killer warframe (nor the Bramma, of course). Any melee weapon can easily outperform the Bramma.

I wasn't addressing you personally, and your personal experience, like mine, is only a statistic.  Its usage(a measure DE relies upon heavily, for better or worse) is such that on the whole it is diluting primary usage and being used in lieu of secondaries and melee.  All complaint threads ever accomplish is causing them to look for themselves.  Once they've announced a reduction, it's because they've drawn a conclusion--which is very often the conclusion players are already seeing, hence the complaint threads in the first place.

 

5 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

No, only since DE has annouced the nerf. But it's true that a few (including me) have seen the nerf coming when the complaints accumulated because of an alleged overpowering of this weapon.

 These bargaining threads that can't offer any numerical statistics proving why it SHOULDN'T happen pop up every time the correct weapon for a nerf is selected.  No, there wasn't just a few visionaries that saw it coming.  This thing lines up perfectly with a long lineage of weapons or mechanics that where basically born to get nerfed, most logical and reasonable people playing this game could see it coming.

 

5 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

Except that DE have nerfed them not because they are overpowered but because they are overused in there time. But i bet that if they revert now the nerf of the weapons you're taking in exemple, the Bramma will not be overused anymore in few days/weeks.

 You're probably right.  If the nerfs where reverted on all the other completely rediculous weapons we've had over the years some people would, perhaps, choose a different completely overpowered weapon.  That doesn't change the situation in the slightest nor does it fix it. 

A reduction has a very comparable effect, but also brings other weapons into the front.  Instead of picking from the AE category, it will force players to pick from all of them.  The history of the effect of these nerfs actually proves this to be the case.  They're virtually always effective.  Unfortunately for those that enjoy the Bramma, they also have a nasty history of curbstomping the weapon in question, which is another topic entirely.

[Aldain]

10 hours ago, MacIntoc said:

Because DE launched it as is and if they had made a balancing error, they would have corrected it long before.

You haven't been around here for long have you?

DE is INFAMOUS for not doing math well, case in point, Railjack was a slew of numeric errors (the range on reactors being so wide that the Sigma 3 was better than 90% of any 3rd tier craftable) and on top of that, things like Titanium drops needed to be about tripled before they were considered balanced to the base costs for parts..

They also admitted to comically overshooting the investment to even build a Railjack in the first place and had to reduce that. Scarlet Spear had massive credit drop disparities for the Railjack segment too, which were increased as well.

That's also only the recent changes, DE has a long history of "Whoops, did that math wrong" so saying that DE always launches things with the intent to leave them as they are is certifiably insane.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

8 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

@(PS4)UltraKardas did you compare the bramma with a frame? A weapon with a character?

Nope. I compared the Bramma to a Warframe ability. Then I compared it to another weapon. The person I was talking to mentioned how the Bramma is overpowered because it 2 shots level 120 gunners.

Yet I did that with an unforma-ed lenz with a single shot. The Lenz is a much inferior bow. But even without a single forma, without a maxed out point strike, it did the very same thing he said the Bramma did.

I did compare it to Volt's discharge, or Banshee's Resonating quake. AoE abilities that have much larger range, that can clear rooms much faster. Yet those aren't a problem. 

You can compare weapons and abilities as both can be used to dispatch enemies. Each are a weapon on their own. So saying a 8 meter radius Bramma is OP when warframe abilities can hit anywhere between 20-70 meters?

So why are AoE abilities with much larger range, or damage fine but the Bramma isn't?

No reasonable logic can justify it. The real reason is popularity.

Not many people use banshee or volt or the other nuker frames. Their power isn't what matters. The Bramma is a popular gun. It's new, strong, and easy to use. Because it's one of the strongest guns in the game, and can be customized with an element of your choice, and can have one of the highest mod capacities of any weapon, people can mod it exactly how they want, make it as powerful as they want.

It's not even overpowered. Both the Lenz and the Bramma can have a similar killing potential up to level 100. Both are AoE bows. The problem is that the Bramma is popular, and a small vocal minority like you complains about it.

Does the Bramma stop you from killing enemies? Not really. Nowhere near the scale Saryn's Miasma does, or a Resonating Quake Banshee. Is the Bramma too strong of a weapon?
No. There's a dozen weapons that have higher dps, or are better at killing other things.

So the real problem? DE made a weapon that too many people loved. I wish DE would have made every Kuva weapon as good as the Bramma. But instead people like you scream to nerf it, when 6 months from now there will be a new weapon that's better then the Bramma.

I wish people like you were actually honest. Just admit that the gun is balanced, but you hate nice things. The logic you guys put behind it is honestly terrible. I'd respect you more if you owned up to it instead of pretending.

Abilities that make players immortal? Perfectly fine.
Abilities with 70 meter range? Perfectly fine.
Abilities that infinitely scale damage? Perfectly fine.
AoE abilities that do great AoE damage? Perfectly fine.

A new bow comes out that performs exactly like the Lenz in low tier missions, but does better in high level missions? Unacceptable.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

8 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

And now do the same with the bramma.

You mean use a base bramma without any forma to kill corrupted gunners? Super easy. (Since my Bramma is forma-ed I will just use the same mods my Lenz used.)
 

Bramma took 3 shots to kill. Lenz took 2 shots to kill. Do you know why? I do. Hunter Munitions is based off raw damage and crit damage.

In this example, the Lenz has a 112% crit chance vs the Bramma's 78% or so. The Lenz is also doing full damage. (Some of the Bramma's cluster bombs aren't hitting the gunner.)

Hunter Munitions is what is killing the heavy gunner. It only has a 30% chance to proc on Crit. So when the Bramma doesn't crit? Not even a chance to Proc. The Lenz always crits, and has a small chance to crit twice. Slash procs ignore armor. The bramma does more raw damage then the Lenz. If I took OFF hunter munitions the Bramma and the Lenz would both be terrible. The Bramma would even beat the lenz in damage in that scenario. Hunter Munitions makes both weapons do the most damage out of potential 'base" builds.

You can see I used the same mods in the video. AI was turned on with the exact same tactics used. Removing Hunter Munitions from either build make the gunner unkillable. 

It's going to be both really funny to me, and really sad if the Bramma gets nerfed so hard the Lenz is going to be better. Lenz is already doing better in my videos off a base hunter munitions build.
If that day comes true, it will prove to me once and for all that not a single one of you was ever right xD.
 

[-Sandman]

On 2020-06-08 at 5:04 PM, Marine027 said:

 

So then why wait so long? This could have been "fixed" ages ago but wasn't. And so many times with these extremely meta items we see no gradual change... release OP > leave untouched > drastic nerf. They knew this was gonna happen as it has happened so many times before and will likely happen again. It's either they are really that incompetent at testing items before release or they intentionally do it because its profitable; either way its unhealthy for the community for this to keep happening.  

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

11 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Be efficient. And increase the enemy level to 150. On this way there should be a higher differnce.

Level 150 was too easy. I did a level 171 corrupted heavy gunner for you instead.

According to the Warframe Wiki... That enemy would have health around 3,196,177.86

That's 3 million health. All of this was done with a 0 forma Lenz.

(Simulcrum doesn't let me spawn in enemies higher level then 140. Figured seeing a base Lenz kill level 187 enemies in an hour long survival doesn't change your mind, then nothing will.

The Lenz is a Mastery Rank 7 weapon. No Forma. No Riven. Not even a maxed out point strike. Fully capable of killing level 180 enemies. I don't even have carrier, or ammo mutation.
Bramma a mastery rank 15 weapon, reward for killing kuva liches, is Overpowered for being able to kill level 120 enemies?... Hm. I think not.