Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion

[Aldain]

5 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Funny how Lenz, with six max ammo was perfectly fine.
But somehow five max ammo, on a bow with more damage, more AoE, more status and shorter charge time is the end of the world.

Apparently one max ammo is the difference between "Usable" and "Useless".

Good to know.

[Frostyinferno]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Apparently one max ammo is the difference between "Usable" and "Useless".

Good to know.

You're ignoring the actual problem. 

Nobody is saying that 5 ammo max is a killer for the weapon. You're ignoring the things that Lenz has to deal with it's poor ammo maximum, which is:

1. Innate Ammo Mutation

2. The ability to stack Ammo Mutation effects to gain more ammo (this is the real kicker here)

Bramma seems to only gain one arrow regardless of the ammo mutation mods stacked. I don't know if this is a bug, but going off the weapon's new description it seems not to be. The Lenz is usable forever in high-end content with careful planning because of this. The Bramma is not. All because of this very simple change of letting it only get 1 ammo per pickup. It quite literally removes it from being used in any situation where enemies take multiple hits to die.

[SpringRocker]

14 hours ago, StormWolf1337 said:

Also changes happen these days not because it's good or necessary but because there 's a few fools going "REEEEEEE" loud enough while the rest of us who couldn't care less have to speak after the fact to say that nope, "No normal person wants this BS".

The max ammo was lowered, It's still the best non-melee weapon and unless you're missing every shot it doesn't even matter or make much difference.

Yet here you are shouting "REEEEEEE" because the max ammo was dropped from 15 to 5.

[Frostyinferno]

9 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

The max ammo was lowered, It's still the best non-melee weapon and unless you're missing every shot it doesn't even matter or make much difference.

Yet here you are shouting "REEEEEEE" because the max ammo was dropped from 15 to 5.

Again, this isn't TRUE, and the issue is the ammo restoration rate, not the max ammo. I swear people haven't tested it or don't care and only see the max ammo change and think that's all that's going on. You can nail every shot and still run out of ammo because of that change.

[LokiTheCondom]

3 minutes ago, Frostyinferno said:

Again, this isn't TRUE, and the issue is the ammo restoration rate, not the max ammo. I swear people haven't tested it or don't care and only see the max ammo change and think that's all that's going on. You can nail every shot and still run out of ammo because of that change.

It's not entirely false, either. I have tested it myself mind you.

If one's too trigger-happy without ammo mutation + vacuum then yes, you will run out of ammo.

[Frostyinferno]

I need to preface this by saying that while there is a similar topic about the Bramma, this one deals specifically with a single issue of the nerf: the restoration rate of ammo pickups. All the other parts of the nerf are fair, even the 5 ammo.

The Bramma, among other nerfs, now only restores 1 ammo per ammo pickup. This is even reflected in it's new description. However I believe this nerf is a bit too much. On paper, the nerf makes sense: Bramma frequently can wipe out groups of enemies, so kill 2 or 3 guys at least and you should be fine. Again, on paper. It's not that easy though. First off, we should compare the Bramma to the thing it is now being frequently compared to, the Lenz.

The Lenz has two things over the Bramma: Innate Ammo mutation and the ability to stack Ammo mutation effects. This second thing is the aspect that makes the Lenz have a massive advantage ammo-wise over the Bramma.

The Bramma CANNOT stack Ammo mutation effects, and this is the thing that really hurts it. Regardless of how many mods you have on it, you only ever get one arrow per pickup. And this matters if you can't kill an enemy in one shot, which can definitely happen in high level content. And if the Bramma takes multiple shots to kill enemies, there's a very real possibility that you will start losing ammo overall. Enemies don't always drop ammo either.

This one specific change makes the Bramma essentially the most ammo-hungry weapon in the game, and the only one that can't fix the issue it has with stacking QOL mods. And while ammo restores exist, they should never be required to play a weapon in higher level play. 

I feel like this part of the nerf should be altered. At very least, let Ammo Mutation mods stack. If a player is willing to sacrifice some damage mods to try and fix the ammo issues it now suffers from, they should be able to. Even being able to receive 2 ammo from some pickups would make a dramatic difference in the weapon's usability in difficult content.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

You can always mod towards ammo mutation or use Carrier.

8 minutes ago, Frostyinferno said:

The Lenz has two things over the Bramma: Innate Ammo mutation and the ability to stack Ammo mutation effects. This second thing is the aspect that makes the Lenz have a massive advantage ammo-wise over the Bramma.

Lenz is also an absolutely terrible weapon.

[Drachnyn]

I was using Aero Periphery in the exilus slot on the Bramma (felt like i was the only person doing that). Now I have to use Vigilante Supplies if I even want to consider using the Bramma. Sniper/Bow ammo is the rarest normal ammo type in the game so it already was a limiting factor against higher level enemies. They reduced max ammo by 66% but reduced ammo pickup rate by 90%. That just makes one of the few primaries that are even worth equipping feel awful to use.

[Frostyinferno]

Just now, Wyrmius_Prime said:

You can always mod towards ammo mutation or use Carrier.

Lenz is also an absolutely terrible weapon.

I've done both, and in certain circumstances it's not enough. I use both Ammo Drum and Carrier with Ammo Case. There aren't always massive crowds of enemies in some missions, and like I said, if they don't die in one hit, you slowly can lose ammo. The change was implemented to force you to aim better, but if I'm hitting enemies dead-on and still losing ammo, it's a bit too much.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

1 minute ago, Frostyinferno said:

I've done both, and in certain circumstances it's not enough. I use both Ammo Drum and Carrier with Ammo Case. There aren't always massive crowds of enemies in some missions, and like I said, if they don't die in one hit, you slowly can lose ammo. The change was implemented to force you to aim better, but if I'm hitting enemies dead-on and still losing ammo, it's a bit too much.

It's a heavy weapon that is now actually treated like a real heavy weapon by the game. If you aren't facing a crowd of enemies, simply quick melee it. The game gives you 2 other weapons a reason.

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Wyrmius_Prime:

It's a heavy weapon that is now actually treated like a real heavy weapon by the game. If you aren't facing a crowd of enemies, simply quick melee it. The game gives you 2 other weapons a reason.

Melee weapons were already the better option in almost all situations. This is now even reinforced and DE knows how strong melee weapons are. The melee rework showed us that, The only reason the bramma isnt allowed to compete is because all DE can do is look at usage stats. If Kuva Ogris and Kuva Tonkor were able to compete with the Bramma, this nerf would have never happened.

[Bandileros]

Bramma was one of the best bows in the game. Everything WAS fine in it. 100%  the spirit of the warframe - RUN, JUMP, EXPLODE, FUN!
Yes, she had to be nerfed - for such a powerful bow, the rate of fire is too high. At least 2-3 times to reduce the rate of fire.

But...

5 rounds is not a nerf. This is a way to keep the player in perpetual annoyance.

Warframe is not a hardcore game. Warframe is not for those who have already achieved everything and are looking for a lot of hardcore.
For such people, there are games that will make the most experienced players cry from powerlessness.

And how did they justify it? That explosions prevent others from playing.
That players too often shoot in all directions.

They could not reduce the rate of fire or remove visual effects.

 

[Drachnyn]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Bandileros:

remove visual effects.

This is an important aspect: give us the option to turn down/off visual effects from other players. So many issues would be solved by that: bramma, mirage, ember, staticor, simulor, etc.

On top of that it would future proof us against visual effect heavy stuff in the future, while also giving DE the option to go into bombastic visual effects, because they do feel nice if you are the one using them.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

7 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Melee weapons were already the better option in almost all situations. This is now even reinforced and DE knows how strong melee weapons are. The melee rework showed us that, The only reason the bramma isnt allowed to compete is because all DE can do is look at usage stats. If Kuva Ogris and Kuva Tonkor were able to compete with the Bramma, this nerf would have never happened.

Melee weapons have higher maximum damage output and that is fine. They are balanced by their effective attack range. Most times you will have a hard time out-damaging a decent Saryn or a Mesa player. In regular missions like fissures, kuva siphons/floods, sorties and <1 hour arbitrations melee kinda suffers because even full auto hitscan weapons with high firerate can oneshot enemies without a problem and they have the advantage of now having to move to melee distance from your enemy.

[Dark_RRiderr]

Said it before: The best solution IS as simple as it sounds like: Just bring back self damage again and those nerfs are unnessary again.

Why in the first place get rid of self damage? Just because people were to stupid to know if something blows up on impact you shouldnt shoot it to close?

I mean whats next? Unlimited ammo because people are to stupid to dont waste it all? While we already have ammo restoration gear?

Sorry but i just never understand this and just CANT support this no self damage thing.

 

This ammo nerf is only changing one thing for me: The Exilus slot mod i pick.... and, oh thats it...

Why do i care about it then? Because i try to ask myself where this is going to. Because i have the bad feeling this wont be the last nerf for Bramma because people STILL like using it if they can just spam around without caring since there is no consequence of shooting to close (except for beeing annoyed by staggering, but except for beeing annoying its still not really stopping you from doing so) And Because i see this will only lead to one way: Limiting the way we play, dont like it if games force me to play a certein way instead of letting me find my own. Which i usually like about warframe, playing it YOUR way which was a great idea from the devs

[Drachnyn]

Gerade eben schrieb Wyrmius_Prime:

Melee weapons have higher maximum damage output and that is fine. They are balanced by their effective attack range. Most times you will have a hard time out-damaging a decent Saryn or a Mesa player. In regular missions like fissures, kuva siphons/floods, sorties and <1 hour arbitrations melee kinda suffers because even full auto hitscan weapons with high firerate can oneshot enemies without a problem and they have the advantage of now having to move to melee distance from your enemy.

Yes abilities outperform melee but that's not on topic right now. With how fast we are melee having range isnt even an issue because being able to hit multiple enemies at once while also moving forwards beats out having to aim with a rifle, even if it can dispatch a single enemy quickly.

[Bandileros]

Developers who themselves remove the funniest things from the game are clinical idiocy.

How do they justify this? There are no rational excuses; what could be the balance in PvE? We are they, experimental mice for experiments?

[Kainosh]

Nothing changed for me really... I don't even use mutation or carrier. 

Bramma is powerful even without full set of damage mods.  You need  about 4-5 mods to make it deal massive damage.    Rest of them slots you just use for utility/ comfort mods.

14 minutes ago, Frostyinferno said:

I've done both, and in certain circumstances it's not enough.

What "circumstances"? 

Mutation = guaranteed arrow per ammo box.   One Bramma arrow kills whole lot of enemies if you properly modded for their weakness.  That's several ammo drops per arrow.

Even if you use 3 arrows to kill a bunch of enemies, its really hard to run out.

 

Also, if you run out of Bramma arrows, just pull out your pistol, cast ability or use melee. Archguns are here too.   A few kills with different weapon, and your Bramma is full again!

 

[Bandileros]

DE themselves did not understand what they created. They did not understand the warframe at all and went about the evil, toxic, angry nerds who hate everything and want more hardcore and difficulties.

Who bothered that I ran and blew everything from the brahma? I almost never played with random players - either solo, or with friends in the clan. I didn’t bother anyone!

And I had fun. I had fun, like Tina, EXPLODING ALL AROUND !!! 

If for someone the warframe is too easy - make a hardcore mod for them! Let them suffer if they want to suffer!
 

THIS IS PVE !!!

Why should all suffer because of some? Nerf separately for them if they think the weapon is too strong.

The spirit of the PvE game is to farm, kill mobs, collect, achieve, create, receive good things. And enjoy their possession.

I spent a week getting a BC, I spent MY TIME.
The time of my life!

There is a sense to nerf something only in PvP, or initially a mistake was made that made the gun so strong that it was boring to play with it.

The best is not because he has a lot of damage - he is not the biggest.
The best is not because it has efficiency.

The best thing is because to shoot him was GREATLY FUN !!! 111 Blow everything around, listen to BUM_BUM_BUM, enjoy the game.
 

Are they enraged by the brahma because they have weak computers?

Now 2020 !!! 111!
If someone starts the game on the calculator, because the warframe is on it, in principle, should I abandon the warframe?

 

[Wyrmius_Prime]

18 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

being able to hit multiple enemies at once

Many, MANY guns can do that as well.

18 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

while also moving forwards beats out having to aim with a rifle

I don't understand how so many of your forum dwellers think aiming is a big deal when it is not. Do people still use controllers in the current year?

[Drachnyn]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Wyrmius_Prime:

Many, MANY guns can do that as well.

No reason to nerf the bramma then?

[taiiat]

put Vigilante Supplies in the Exilus Slot, you get a free tick for Vigilante Set, and now the Weapon has infinite Ammo without eating all of the Ammo on the Map.

now the Ammo wasn't nerfed at all.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

@(PS4)UltraKardas

Dude, I'll just end it at this. It doesn't matter how many videos you post about Lenz doing this, Lenz doing that. Bramma does it better,

How about you be honest, and admit you are wrong and you lost the argument. 

The bramma isn't the end all boogeyman you make it out to be. That's why you went from taking all that nonsense a post ago. Now all of a sudden, you got nothing to say when a 0 forma lenz took on level 171 enemies. 

(I'm not blinded like you are. I actually compare the weapons instead of being a noob ;p)-+-

[Bandileros]

 

On 2020-06-13 at 2:22 PM, taiiat said:

put Vigilante Supplies in the Exilus Slot, you get a free tick for Vigilante Set, and now the Weapon has infinite Ammo without eating all of the Ammo on the Map.

now the Ammo wasn't nerfed at all.

No!
This is the basis of all shooters - cartridges must be scattered on the map.
If a player lacks ammunition, then he experiences stress. If he is stressed, he is tired. He wants a decent reward. Stress in a farm and PvE game is a dead end. Because 1-2 missions with stress and everything further fed up.

Too powerful? Reduce your rate of fire.
Aren't the players interested? They gathered an ultimatum powerful cannon, spent a lot of time and effort to do it, and then complain that it is TOO powerful?

 

Is it annoying that someone has a powerful weapon?
Firstly - no one bothers them to get it themselves.
Secondly - this is a PvE game. Play the way you like, and if someone is better equipped than you ... sorry, this is PvE, there is no CS, so that their strength would interfere with you playing. On the contrary, if you have teammates with powerful weapons in your team, then you will benefit from this.

Teamwork. Do not like it - play solo. Do not want to - write in recruiting and ask without brahma. If you don’t want to write, join the clan, make friends and play with them.

[taiiat]

8 minutes ago, Bandileros said:

No!

no what.
what are you even babbling to me about.

since Bramma has a very small Ammo Pool now, putting on Mutation means you'll fill your Ammo Pool with one maybe two Ammo Pickups(any Ammo Pickups), meaning that Mutation can't remove all Ammo from existence while still having your Ammo Pool completely filled at all times.

 

if you want to babble about stuff, ping someone else, not me.