Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion

[Bandileros]

19 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

The same reason why you are using bramma and don't want the nerf. They want to get the most of their gear. And they want to use it. Their specefic unique combination. 

But in warframe is the problem that you need <10% of your actual power to kill everything with one button. Otherwise you have easy mode activated in warframe unless you stay in an endless mission for +1hour. And for many people that is unrewarding.

Btw. that's the reason why many also wanted the bramma nerf.

There are many ways to facilitate farming and one-click massacres. Sarina, Mirage, Necros, Frost, and many others with AOE.

Some people like to play like that. Someone have difficulty.
  I do not understand people who prevent others from playing, and whine on the forum to nerf weapons in PvE. Not for them, for other players that they don’t even know.
  This is absolutely stupid. Balance in PvE, balance between what and what? Between players and mobs? Between the players? But the players do not fight each other, there is no balance between them at all.
In the end, it all comes down to the fact that another weapon that was popular is sent to a huge pile of useless guns.

[Kayll]

3 minutes ago, Bandileros said:

  I do not understand people who prevent others from playing, and whine on the forum to nerf weapons in PvE. 

You can still play the game? No one has taken that away from you.
Your weapon just has to be fired with a small amount of brain power instead of just rushing through the entire game and shooting at the ground.

[Bandileros]

19 hours ago, Kayll said:

You can still play the game? No one has taken that away from you.
Your weapon just has to be fired with a small amount of brain power instead of just rushing through the entire game and shooting at the ground.

How did I have 78% accuracy with bramma while I shot in all directions?

They say that the skill of the misa is like shooting in a equilibrium. This is nonsense - a real equilibrium is a bramma. The meaning is the same - shooting without aiming in those areas where the enemy should be.

It's complicated. You need to listen, very quickly notice the appearance of the enemy, sift single targets from group targets, move so as to throw an arrow into the place where the most mobs are.

And take into account the correction for the movement of mobs and arrows, if the firing range is more than 30m ...And take into account the likely deflection of the arrow ...

Artillery does not aim at a single soldier or group — artillery aims at an area of concentration of enemy forces!
 

If you do not play the brahma, then you do not understand this and it annoys you that they shoot where there may not be an enemy.

But for every such shot there are 5 shots that destroy the enemy, even if the player did not notice him.
 

Here on whom it is really too easy to play - it is on sarin.

first skill - everyone around is infected. You don’t really need to think, the first is for damage. Profit!

[Kayll]

7 minutes ago, Bandileros said:

?

What are you even going on about lmao,I still don't know why people are talking about warframes when we are in the weapon subforum talking about a weapon.
If you have issue with those other things, then go make a post about them in the warframe subforum.
This weapon was disgustingly obnoxious and now its slightly less so,but I guess god forbid the Ultrasafe Room Clearer 9000 has a single downside to it.

 

[Bandileros]

21 минуту назад, Kayll сказал:

What are you even going on about lmao,I still don't know why people are talking about warframes when we are in the weapon subforum talking about a weapon.
If you have issue with those other things, then go make a post about them in the warframe subforum.
This weapon was disgustingly obnoxious and now its slightly less so,but I guess god forbid the Ultrasafe Room Clearer 9000 has a single downside to it.

 

If you disgust weapons - do not play with him!

If it is disgusting to you that others play with weapons ...

Dude, the world doesn't revolve around you. Let others play the way they want. I am also enraged by many. Who dies in arbitration all the time. Who goes to the Sanctuary Onslaught with sarina and takes the main synthesis for himself. Someone on survival runs on different sides of the map. Who connects at night on the plains of the eidolon and does not go to kill the teralist. Who uses Loki and goes on a mission like ballast, receiving all the experience and rewards. Who swears in voice chat. Who does not know how to use their skills. Who goes to the index to pump weapons

 

But I do not whine!

Because maybe they like it so much. Maybe they want to play like that. Maybe they learn to play. Maybe they don’t want to learn to play.

Everyone has the right to have fun the way he wants. When I want to play, I turn to my clan’s chat room, or to recruit, or call my friends to discord so that I don’t encounter a random selection of players.

 

Imagine if I have now started to whine whined like toxic nerds, which irritates bramm-players? Whining about everything that I wrote above?

These are toxic nerds that are too aggressive towards others. They believe that the game belongs to them and they have the right to tell others how they should play and how not.

Explaining a balance or a too powerful weapon in a PvE grinder is not even funny, it's sad. It’s sad that we’ve come to this.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Bandileros:

There are many ways to facilitate farming and one-click massacres. Sarina, Mirage, Necros, Frost, and many others with AOE.

Some people like to play like that. Someone have difficulty.
  I do not understand people who prevent others from playing, and whine on the forum to nerf weapons in PvE. Not for them, for other players that they don’t even know.
  This is absolutely stupid. Balance in PvE, balance between what and what? Between players and mobs? Between the players? But the players do not fight each other, there is no balance between them at all.
In the end, it all comes down to the fact that another weapon that was popular is sent to a huge pile of useless guns.

I have to split your comment. I apologize if you have a problem with it.

Why do people want nerf for weapons they don't use/ like? This is actually an easy question. Jealousy. The Bramma is easy to obtain (you only need to do the main quests and someone who carry you trough the missions.) and deal a hell amount of damage in a large area with amazing explosive effects which literally tells everyone:" I'm here. You bad, I'm good". And getting something like that splatter on the face is always a no. No matter if PvE game or PvP.

Imagine you have a job which cost you all your energy and you get less money than the guy who only opens bottles everyday. He also has to work less hours than you, because he earn so much money. I bet you would think that there is something wrong in this world.

Some people like the difficulty. Even with a Bramma. Here we come to the problem with personal opinion. What is for you funny is for the other not. DE had to choose which group of people they want to listen and which not. In most times is the player amount the deciding factor. But also DE has an own opinion.

Balance in PvE? Betwenn what? Player and mobs? Yes, but actually not.

No, because warframe is a power-fantasy game where the main priority is slaughtering huge amount of enemies. A weapon which kills everything just faster shouldn't be a problem.

Yes, it seems like DE thought that this weapon is to strong. In the main nerf thread about bramma it was mentioned, that bramma was used three-times more than other weapons. And if no other weapon is needed there will be nobody who have to buy slots for weapons. And I could even bet, that DE would even nerf it, if it wasn't so popular, because it was probably a bit to "power-fantasy" in their opinion. 

Warframes a way more stronger and devastating than weapons. Here we come to game logic. In warfarme are the characters the legends. Not the weapons. We would need the same situation like in LoZ. Link is the legend, because of his sword. Without it he wouldn't be able to beat Ganandorf. We can kill Vor, Salad and lephantis without our weapons.

In warframe we have the situation, that our weapons are already enough to shred trough a group of enemies. And because of this our warframes able to kill armies with the snip of a finger.

[Kayll]

1 minute ago, Bandileros said:

...

The weapon is still in the game,if you love the weapon as much as you claim this small change shouldn't really effect you.

[Bandileros]

6 минут назад, Kayll сказал:

The weapon is still in the game,if you love the weapon as much as you claim this small change shouldn't really effect you.

I love it like a Ferrari with a 0.5 liter gas tank.
It is beautiful, and can even ride.

What are you saying? Carry a can of fuel with you and stop every 3 minutes to add gas?
I’m afraid I’ll end up in a psychiatric hospital before I get to the nearest McDonald's ...

[Kayll]

17 hours ago, Bandileros said:

...

My favorite weapon's in game have also received nerfs, you can use another or continue to use the one you have.
Calling people names because they don't want their retinas burned out of their head and also would like to play the game is immature and doesn't help anything.
Honestly the weapon probably would have been toned down even if no one posted on the forums, they'd see it dominating on the usage charts and see that something is clearly unbalanced with the weapon.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

I vote for the self damage as well. Given that every other explosive weapon isn't suicidal anymore and Bramma is the only one will make people think about their shots.

[Bandileros]

 

17 hours ago, Kayll said:

My favorite weapon's in game have also received nerfs, you can use another or continue to use the one you have.
Calling people names because they don't want their retinas burned out of their head and also would like to play the game is immature and doesn't help anything.
Honestly the weapon probably would have been toned down even if no one posted on the forums, they'd see it dominating on the usage charts and see that something is clearly unbalanced with the weapon.

_{Firstly, the game can disable the visual effects of other players.
Secondly - nerfs are not visual effects.
Thirdly, the fact that some weapons are used more often than others means that they turned out to be good. The question then will be to the developers of the rest of the weapon.}

_{It's no secret that in warframe 90% of weapons are practically not used by anyone, because they are made poorly.
In the world, 1/3 of all shooting weapons belong to the Kalashnikov system. And this is not because God created it incorrectly, it is because the weapon turned out to be good.}

_{It was possible to rebalance old weapons to make them more popular and interesting. Add visual effects, sounds, damage, unique features ...}

[Thrymm]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

And yet  it's telling once again that the emphasis on their reasons for the nerf Reb's post is the weapon's usage, rather than directly saying "it's too good at too many things".  So I'm still not certain that--in DE's opinion--they made a "balancing error" and are finally fixing it.    Maybe, but they're not exactly confessing it whole-heartedly. 

I think Kuva Nukor is/was more ridiculous than the Bramma, but its usage isn't as high and there haven't been a dozen threads complaining about it.   Melee is in general more powerful than the Bramma, but I'd guess because it's not dominated by one or two weapons it's escaped nerfs so far.  I'd speculate it's something similar with nuke frames.   Despite lots of complaints about Saryn, her usage isn't, in Reb's phrase about the Bramma, "3 times more popular than anything else" because it's diluted by other nukers. 

As always, they seem way too dependent on popularity metrics of very specific items as a gauge or lens for  balance tuning.  If balance is even a primary consideration for them. 

 

I agree, actually, and I do find it interesting, and a little disappointing.  Any kind of adjustment made to intentionally make an item less popular seems pretty questionable.

The only reason I'd had bothered mentioning it here was to dispel the notion that these adjustments came due to the actions of just a few people, because it's a bad assumption based solely from ignorance.  The fact is, a great many people have discovered the effectiveness of this weapon.  DE does very little that isn't intended to move masses of people.

I'm definitely on the team that thinks weapon popularity should not be a primary factor for these adjustments.  The only purpose it should serve is to offer an opportunity to examine why the item is so popular in the first place.  In the case of the Bramma, I think it put it under the microscope that the self damage loss made it a weapon with a playstyle they didn't want it to have--the very same playstyle as the Tonkor and Simulor used to have, with the same visual noise problem that the Simulor had.  With self damage, the Bramma was destined for relative obscurity, without it it became a defacto brainless trash killer due to how its mechanics operate. 

Even the nukor(which I fully agree is significantly more powerful, even for the same purpose) has to actually hit an enemy--and usage patterns have indicated that even that is too big an ask, because if it wasn't, we'd be seeing way more nukors than brammas, since the acquisition method is identical.  Unfortunately, I doubt that the actual changes made will do anything at all to dissuade the no aim, lob explosions everywhere playstyle that the Bramma uses.  As nerfs go, this one was extremely mild.

I think melee gets a bit of a pass because in premise, it's a higher risk maneuver than ranged attacks, though in practice I think we can all agree that this isn't really the case, for the most part.  It is a good point though, because it is rather obvious when playing that melee is outperforming any real risk addition that it could ever reasonably be added to counter it.

 

[Kayll]

13 hours ago, Bandileros said:

_{Firstly, the game can disable the visual effects of other players.
Secondly - nerfs are not visual effects.
Thirdly, the fact that some weapons are used more often than others means that they turned out to be good. The question then will be to the developers of the rest of the weapon.}

_{It's no secret that in warframe 90% of weapons are practically not used by anyone, because they are made poorly.
In the world, 1/3 of all shooting weapons belong to the Kalashnikov system. And this is not because God created it incorrectly, it is because the weapon turned out to be good.}

_{It was possible to rebalance old weapons to make them more popular and interesting. Add visual effects, sounds, damage, unique features ...}

This has all been said before, this isn't the first game to ever have a nerf in it, it wont be the last,nothing new was done here.

"Why not buff other weapons?"
Buff 100 other weapons,which leads to the entirety of weapons being too strong, and in turn buff the enemies because now they are too weak.
OR
Nerf 1 weapon that's an outlier to bring it into line the the other 100 weapons.
This choice is amazingly simple.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

5 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

So the argument went like this:

And the facts went like this: You lost the argument.

You went from so confident and so rowdy a few posts ago. Now that I showed you what the Lenz can do, and what other weapons can do, you suddenly lost all your fire for the argument.

You are wrong. You said the Bramma is overpowered. My 1 forma Lenz kills level 140 enemies just as well. Even a little more consistently.  You asked why other people would have other weapons. I gave you a real answer. Apply different procs to enemies. Heal. Hit weakpoints on an enemy. Have consistent ammo for the fight.

You boasted your Bramma kills level 120. I surpassed that. (Btw. Just a little FYI. Any and every crit weapon, that has a high crit chance can perform amazing things with Hunter Munitions. Dread, Rubico Prime, Opticor, Etc.

The facts also went like this:

I like to know what I'm talking about. I do weapon testing. I test weapons to see what is better. I don't judge weapons on "Feelings". I judge them on facts. I judge weapons extensively. Somebody challenged me to take my weapons against level 150 enemies. I took them against level 170 Enemies. Not a single weapon in my arsenal was maxed out other then my Melee (Which I didn't use.) My lenz needs like 3 forma for its max potential. My Nukor in the survival video was brought along to level up.

Here is a fact for you. A popular weapon is a good thing. Fact #2 your opinion is trash. Fact #3 There are a dozen of weapons, like the Lenz from two years ago that can compete with the Bramma.

I showed my builds in my videos extensively so people can copy my Lenz build and if you are BRAVE ENOUGH. You can go try them out too.

In the Lenz vs Bramma argument? Here's how it goes. Both builds are best with Hunter Munitions. Lenz always crits. It is more consistent with Hunter Munitions. If the Lenz crits more then once; it outdamages the Bramma slash Proc.

Lenz with 100% multishot has 4 instances of damage. All 4 instances of damage can create the slash proc. 30% chance for slash Proc. 25% for double crit. More if you have vigilante armaments and vigil supplies.

Bramma has a main explosion. This main explosion does slightly more damage then the Lenz. It has much lower crit chance. The cluster bombs spread out and do 1/8th or 3/8th the damage of the main shot. (Pc changes vs console changes.) Bramma deals damage in a wider aoe, but does less damage cause without a riven it doesn't have 100% crit chance.

And this comes from a person who's able to be honest about the Bramma. Unlike you. I'm able to tell you where the Bramma shines and where it falls short. You simply haven't been honest, nor have you tried to be.

Have you tested the Bramma compared to other weapons like I have? Doubtful.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

6 minutes ago, Kayll said:

This has all been said before, this isn't the first game to ever have a nerf in it, it wont be the last,nothing new was done here.

"Why not buff other weapons?"
Buff 100 other weapons,which leads to the entirety of weapons being too strong, and in turn buff the enemies because now they are too weak.

Except that there are several instances where buffing the other weapons was the correct thing, and nerfing one weapon just made all the weapons trash.

Kitguns. I have seen one person who claims that they are still good. Since the catchmoon nerf, I have not seen, heard, witnessed, or found a single person who uses kitguns. I tried several kitguns, and I think they are all trash.

The Bramma isn't even overpowered. If you are brave enough, go back a page or two. Go look at my 0 forma lenz killing level 170 enemies. Go look at my 1 forma lenz killing a level 140 gunner more consistently then the Bramma.

[rawr1254]

5 hours ago, Bandileros said:

the amount of people demanding NERFS for something in a PVE GAME needs a nerf

I understand the logic behind this quote but if this were true, games like Borderlands(PVE) would just let you have every weapon deal 99999999 damage and then youd say this game it boring and move back to this game. So while you should have the Im super stronk feeling it shouldnt take the challenge out of the game. Also unlike Synoid Simulor(which after getting nerfed got "buffed" and it still garbage) this weapon isnt utter garbage after the changes(not nerfs) and ammo efficiency should never be a problem especially with Vigilante supplies you not only get the increase ammo pickup but a chance to deal higher crit values.

[Bandileros]

13 hours ago, Kayll said:

This has all been said before, this isn't the first game to ever have a nerf in it, it wont be the last,nothing new was done here.

"Why not buff other weapons?"
Buff 100 other weapons,which leads to the entirety of weapons being too strong, and in turn buff the enemies because now they are too weak.
OR
Nerf 1 weapon that's an outlier to bring it into line the the other 100 weapons.
This choice is amazingly simple.

We have 100 bad guns and 1 good gun.
What should we do?
For DE, the choice is really simple.

Unfortunately, many people realize too late that if you burn the most beautiful building, others will not become more beautiful from it. It’s just a way to nowhere. This is a path into a concrete wall, which entire corporations and even countries have crashed into. There is nothing to talk about the small DE team.
This is stupid, and even a child can understand it.

Playing with a bramma is really easier. But who should decide how difficult the game should be for me? I myself choose my weapon, based on my own feelings. You can’t transfer resources here, this is not WoW, where imbalance destroys the financial climate of the game, and there is PvP. Everyone can open relics, with any weapon, with almost the same efficiency.

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, Bandileros said:

Not really. The cartridges still go to 0, just sometimes a little restored.
But too small ammunition so reduces the possibility of using a bow. 

Let me remind you - this is the first slot. Weapons, which should be the main, and perform the task of the main weapon.

honey, if picking up one of the many Ammo Pickups strewn about anywhere Enemies die from time to time is too difficult, i don't know what to tell you.

Primary and Secondary Weapons do not supersede each other, that is your major mistake. they are two Weapons, that occupy Slot 1 and Slot 2.

[SpringRocker]

11 hours ago, IIAc3sII said:

I see many people ignoring the real issue and just pretending that it doesnt exits, which is one arrow pickup, clearly they have not even tried to use the bramma.

In its current state, you can only use it if you have a constant supply of ammo to give you those 1 arrow pickups, meaning you literally CANNOT use the bramma for anything else besides low level mod thrashing, the moment enemies dont die instantly (as in high level or a boss) then your bramma will be unusable.

I used to do solo defense arbs with a Lenz up against +enemies around level 280 before it started having trouble killing stuff when only using it (no melee or secondary).

The Bramma has a lot more power than the Lenz, yet it's not really an issue with the Lenz. I'm sorry, but you "clearly have not even tried to use the Bramma", unless you're spam shooting no where near enemies, then I can see the problem but that's on you.

Just because it eventually reaches a point where you can't just oneshot everything in an area (even though it has the highest damage and DPS of all non-melee weapons) doesn't mean that it's in a bad state. Imagine any other game where people complain about not being able to oneshot everything at all times.

[Uthael]

I'm just happy I get to play Public again.
Without the visual and audio spam, I mean

[SpringRocker]

1 minute ago, IIAc3sII said:

Could you please explain more, I'm very curious how you can shoot an enemy several times with bramma to kill it to only get 1 arrow back and somehow keep going, your talking about lens and bramma on high level, so enlighten me, how does that work with bramma.

Because you're not just shooting one enemy at a time? I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

Thing is, if that really was an issue then having a 15 max instead of 5 wouldn't make a difference.

[SpringRocker]

11 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

I dont understand what your trying to say either, you speak about lvl 280 enemies that require several shots to kill with bramma, yet you somehow want to pretend that you dont run out of that 5 ammo capacity when all you get is 1 arrow back after spending several arrows and you can keep going?

Sorry but I call BS on that, show me a video of you doing that please, and stop comparing lens to bramma because lens can pickup several ammo at once while bramma can not.

High level enemies, several shots to kill, you only got 5 arrows and get less arrows back than you spend, simple math will tell you how that ends, but apparently you have some secret math going on so back it up with proof then.

 

Guy, you're excluding part of what I wrote:

18 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Thing is, if that really was an issue then having a 15 max instead of 5 wouldn't make a difference.

 

Thing is that people use it because it deals HUGE amounts of damage to everything in the aoe (not even including cluster bombs, that's another huge source of damage).

Don't even try making an argument that you're only shooting 1 thing at a time. If you were only shooting one thing at a time anyway then your argument that having 15 max makes a difference falls apart anyway.

[taiiat]

36 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

Honey, if enemies dont die instantly because they become too high level its not possible to pickup those Ammo Pickups
Go use bramma for anything that requires several shots to kill

okay, i'll look for those Enemies that i can't Kill with a Spike Damage Weapon.
except i won't find them since Enemies basically don't Level Scale anymore.

:)

[SpringRocker]

9 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

Because that part is meaningless, just like the rest that you write, your doing nothing but speculating while its obvious you havnt even used the bramma for high level enemies.

Guy, I you didn't think out your argument:

32 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

yet you somehow want to pretend that you dont run out of that 5 ammo capacity when all you get is 1 arrow back after spending several arrows and you can keep going?

If you shoot 5 arrows and only get 1 back, having a max of 15 isn't going to help you.

 

As for:

12 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

(I use weapon A so therefor I can also do it with weapon B, but I have not tried it with weapon B yet) <- this is your logic and reasoning why bramma is nerfed correctly and why you can use it on level 280 enemies, seriously?

Lenz: 7.2M AOE, 680 damage.

Bramma: 8.3M AOE, 1442 damage. (including unique kuva damage buff property, NO clusters)

Once again, not even taking cluster bombs into account. Slap on ammo mutation on exilus and there you go.

The Bramma is better in every way, how would it not work even better?

[Kayll]

Generally don't understand how people think Lenz is even in the small ballpark as the Bramma,Bramma getting a free up to 60% damage type of your choosing,extra mod capacity, faster fire rate, and no delay on explosion,not even getting into the smaller nuances its already leagues better.