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Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion


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Just now, LokiTheCondom said:

Vigilante Supplies >> Exilus Slot. Didn't even need an Exilus for my Bramma. Swapped out Bladed Rounds and called it a day.

This one simple trick makes this "nerf" never happen. Even got a free 10% chance for orange crits. Oh, and pick your targets wisely. 

Already did that, even without using Gauss' 4 it still breaks my flow and is an issue for me. I usually head-shot 95% of everything around too, wise shots or not it's still a massive pain and irritation compared to before the nerf.

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2 minutes ago, StormWolf1337 said:

Weird, I shot a Nox that was lvl 120 with enhancements and he didn't die, neither the Heavy Gunners next to him, took quite a few arrows so it was a problem. Ammo was a huge problem there, only problem really since I had a CC + MS + DM riven on the Brama too. 

Time in Warframe doesn't always equal more knowledge about the game as is apparent in many cases, but good for you if you've played longer than me. I'm not much of a fan of being abused by RNG wasting my time in free-to play games honestly.

Maybe I'm about to "burst" as you put it because what D.E did was a complete head-in-arse move to kill one of the few remaining spots of fun in their game, Gauss and the Bramma were the only reasons I even log in and do sorties still, my games list is always full of something else to do.

I'm not insisting that my experience is the truth, just that the majority of opinions/player experiences support that no one is enjoying the ridiculous nerf.

Don't shoot Nox with your Bramma then.  And no, I don't mean that in some snarky way, it's a mechanics thing.  Nox are vulnerable to headshots and take trivial damage from anything else.  There's no way your going to body shot or AE down Nox with any reasonable amount of shots from any weapon.  Unless you're using the Bramma for headshots, it's not going to be very effective against them. 

Heavy Gunners have relatively high armor, and it's ferrite, which means that radiation damage gets no bonus against them(I don't know how you're built).  Being a heavy unit, they are designed to outlive the things the smaller units die immediately from, so it's quite reasonable that they'll survive.  At current, Viral will work the best if you're proccing status, corrosive will likely give you a better burst without status procs.

There are no limitations on secondaries that I'm aware of, and no penalties directly related to them.

Nobody ever enjoys nerfs.  Ever. nerfs aren't fun, being effective is fun.  Waking up and finding yourself less effective is not enjoyable to anyone.  That doesn't mean a person can't believe they positively affect the health of the game and for those of us that have been around a long time, I think you'll find we care about that a whole lot more than any one, singular weapon because we don't intend to go anywhere.  This one is barely a ripple compared to others we've seen.

There is no penalty to secondary weapons.  They work fine.  In fact, secondaries have a better mod set than primaries and have for longer than you've played the game.  I've never seen this claimed in almost seven years, and still gave you the benefit of the doubt and looked around for any information on it today, and found nothing.  If yours sucks as a backup, by all means tell us what it is and what mods are on it and we can tell you how to make changes that'll fix it.  Off the cuff I'd suggest a single shot secondary like the Lex Prime, Vasto Prime, or Akmagnus to compensate for your poor ammo economy primary as well as give you stopping power for headshot enemies like Nox and the occasional stubborn heavy.

Incidentally, the justification for the nerf is to reduce the usage of the Bramma.  You don't have to like it.  I don't have to either.  I gave you the paragraph in which Rebecca explained it, you essentially called me a worshiper or some such ignorant trash.  But that's how DE does it.  If too many people use something, they take it as a sign that it's overpowered, briefly look at the situation it's causing, and USUALLY nerf it into the ground to the point that people sell it out of their armory.  The Bramma got off unbelievably light, almost untouched.

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1 hour ago, Frostyinferno said:

If you think that the Bramma can one-shot every enemy in the game under every circumstance without fail, you clearly haven't used the weapon long enough. Yes, it is powerful, but part of it's power is semi-reliant on statuses and things like Hunter Munitions. When you take this into account, and also remember that enemies don't always appear in huge, clustered groups, and also that enemies don't always drop ammunition, you'll start to see where the issues lie.

Granted, there's still a lot of content where ammo will be no issue if you plan for it. But there is also a decent amount where the Bramma, even with all it's power, will likely dwindle in ammo despite any of your mods. Sorties in particular offer a decent amount of modifiers giving the enemies various forms of Damage Reduction that heavily hamper how long you can actually use the weapon.

i've played Endurance Missions with a Supra Modded for maximum Fire Rate, before it got its Stats buffed some years ago.
and didn't run out of Ammo then. and without Mutation. or Vacuum.

and if someone shoots at a single Enemy with an Explosive Weapon, whatever. when you could beyblade with your Melee Weapon and whichever Enemies would die all the same anyways.
sure, maximum Damage per Shot has gone down. still high enough that whatever is nearby the general vicinity of the impact is going to die anyways.

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Just now, Thrymm said:

Don't shoot Nox with your Bramma then.  And no, I don't mean that in some snarky way, it's a mechanics thing.  Nox are vulnerable to headshots and take trivial damage from anything else.  There's no way your going to body shot or AE down Nox with any reasonable amount of shots from any weapon.  Unless you're using the Bramma for headshots, it's not going to be very effective against them. 

Heavy Gunners have relatively high armor, and it's ferrite, which means that radiation damage gets no bonus against them(I don't know how you're built).  Being a heavy unit, they are designed to outlive the things the smaller units die immediately from, so it's quite reasonable that they'll survive.  At current, Viral will work the best if you're proccing status, corrosive will likely give you a better burst without status procs.

There are no limitations on secondaries that I'm aware of, and no penalties directly related to them.

Nobody ever enjoys nerfs.  Ever. nerfs aren't fun, being effective is fun.  Waking up and finding yourself less effective is not enjoyable to anyone.  That doesn't mean a person can't believe they positively affect the health of the game and for those of us that have been around a long time, I think you'll find we care about that a whole lot more than any one, singular weapon because we don't intend to go anywhere.  This one is barely a ripple compared to others we've seen.

There is no penalty to secondary weapons.  They work fine.  In fact, secondaries have a better mod set than primaries and have for longer than you've played the game.  I've never seen this claimed in almost seven years, and still gave you the benefit of the doubt and looked around for any information on it today, and found nothing.  If yours sucks as a backup, by all means tell us what it is and what mods are on it and we can tell you how to make changes that'll fix it.  Off the cuff I'd suggest a single shot secondary like the Lex Prime, Vasto Prime, or Akmagnus to compensate for your poor ammo economy primary as well as give you stopping power for headshot enemies like Nox and the occasional stubborn heavy.

Incidentally, the justification for the nerf is to reduce the usage of the Bramma.  You don't have to like it.  I don't have to either.  I gave you the paragraph in which Rebecca explained it, you essentially called me a worshiper or some such ignorant trash.  But that's how DE does it.  If too many people use something, they take it as a sign that it's overpowered, briefly look at the situation it's causing, and USUALLY nerf it into the ground to the point that people sell it out of their armory.  The Bramma got off unbelievably light, almost untouched.

Then D.E needs some people that understand fun on their team to stop them screwing up so badly. My previous comment should've cleared up the head-shots vs a Nox bit. I go for viral/corrosive already, don't see how that's really related to the ammo pool problem but cool. 

All of what you said makes sense but it falls apart when we consider that it's a PvE game with no actual challenge besides a few bosses. Fun is the only factor that should matter here. Off the cuff dude, why are you making suggestions based on incorrect assumptions about my weapon usage/knowledge of WF/ammo usage?

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40 minutes ago, StormWolf1337 said:

Then D.E needs some people that understand fun on their team to stop them screwing up so badly. My previous comment should've cleared up the head-shots vs a Nox bit. I go for viral/corrosive already, don't see how that's really related to the ammo pool problem but cool. 

All of what you said makes sense but it falls apart when we consider that it's a PvE game with no actual challenge besides a few bosses. Fun is the only factor that should matter here. Off the cuff dude, why are you making suggestions based on incorrect assumptions about my weapon usage/knowledge of WF/ammo usage?

My incorrect assumption about your secondary is based on your own assertion right here:

2 hours ago, StormWolf1337 said:

Since you don't seem aware of enemy enhancements vs secondaries nor seem aware about mission restrictions for sorties I can tell modding isn't your problem at all, no no, your problem is that you haven't played Warframe enough to be correctly speak/ be right about anything you say.
 

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5 hours ago, StormWolf1337 said:

most secondaries can't even do a scratch of damage when it's against enhanced enemies

There is no enemy enhancement vs secondaries.  There are physical and elemental enhanced enemies in sorties, but none whatsoever that specifically target secondaries that I've ever seen(and to the best of my knowledge, I've seen literally all of it).  If you're seriously not scratching enemies then it seemed reasonable to believe that it's modded wrong, because most of them will comfortably kill all of the enemies you'll encounter and some of them will straight one shot the level 100 third mission enemies right through the enhancement resistances.  If I am incorrect, please refer me to the resource, such as a wiki page, that will educate me otherwise.  I'm always open to learning something new.

From these things, it seemed as if you're having some kind of mechanical difficulty, either in loadout or modding.  If that's not the case, by all means disregard.

Anyway, moving on.

The reason that balance needs to exist in PvE is to prevent stagnation.  You may love the snot out of your Bramma right now, and that's fine(or hate it, whichever, doesn't matter).  If too many people are loving their Bramma exclusively, all that other content isn't getting love.  When that happens, people get bored of their one, singular choice of weapon and move on.  Maybe you personally won't, maybe you personally will, it doesn't matter.  What matters is that as a group, people will move on to something with more variety.  As such, it's in the best interest to have at least a relative balance within PvE itemization so that players can experience what is usually referred to as "the illusion of choice". 

This also helps to reduce frustration from any players who are not enamored with the current most powerful PvE weapon, because they no longer have to operate with the knowledge that they are willfully using subpar gear, as most people prefer not to do that. 

So overall, the games health improves when itemization is relatively balanced, and PvE balance actually matters.

Edited by Thrymm
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14 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You are wrong. You said the Bramma is overpowered. My 1 forma Lenz kills level 140 enemies just as well.

This is the only statement I need to tell you are wrong. Because you somehow imply causation here, when there is none. What does Lenz killing lvl140 prove, exactly? You have shown no comparative evidence of Lenz doing that better than the Bramma. I have shown quite the opposite. But you ignored it of course, it doesn’t fit your narrative. It is baffling that you do not seem to grasp the difference between absolute and relative power. It is baffling that you boast about the Lenz being better than the Bramma, without showing AoE tests against groups, which is the most viable way to kill in this game. It is also baffling that you keep resorting to cheap insults for... what exactly? Feeling validated? Trying to demean someone who’s actually trying to approach this logically, instead of relying on anger and sentiments?

Edited by (XB1)ShonFr0st
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21 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

My incorrect assumption about your secondary is based on your own assertion right here:

  •  
And here:

There is no enemy enhancement vs secondaries.  There are physical and elemental enhanced enemies in sorties, but none whatsoever that specifically target secondaries that I've ever seen(and to the best of my knowledge, I've seen literally all of it).  If you're seriously not scratching enemies then it seemed reasonable to believe that it's modded wrong, because most of them will comfortably kill all of the enemies you'll encounter and some of them will straight one shot the level 100 third mission enemies right through the enhancement resistances.  If I am incorrect, please refer me to the resource, such as a wiki page, that will educate me otherwise.  I'm always open to learning something new.

From these things, it seemed as if you're having some kind of mechanical difficulty, either in loadout or modding.  If that's not the case, by all means disregard.

Anyway, moving on.

The reason that balance needs to exist in PvE is to prevent stagnation.  You may love the snot out of your Bramma right now, and that's fine(or hate it, whichever, doesn't matter).  If too many people are loving their Bramma exclusively, all that other content isn't getting love.  When that happens, people get bored of their one, singular choice of weapon and move on.  Maybe you personally won't, maybe you personally will, it doesn't matter.  What matters is that as a group, people will move on to something with more variety.  As such, it's in the best interest to have at least a relative balance within PvE itemization so that players can experience what is usually referred to as "the illusion of choice". 

This also helps to reduce frustration from any players who are not enamored with the current most powerful PvE weapon, because they no longer have to operate with the knowledge that they are willfully using subpar gear, as most people prefer not to do that. 

So overall, the games health improves when itemization is relatively balanced, and PvE balance actually matters.

Dude.. Enhancements on enemies affect ALL weapons and overall damage potential to those enemies. If you can bypass a sortie enhancement with a secondary, dude... Come on..

Primed mods + Rivens, my secondaries are modded right, trust me. Many are nice but only a few do high dps but an even smaller pool of those are visually interesting to use but most of the fun ones are just not efficient to use, by now you should realize that fun is the main discerning factor here for me, not dps really. The Twin Rogga is a good example, Akarius even, atrocious reload times. I'd use a Tombfinger/other kitgun most times and it does the job but it's not fun to me compared to an Acceltra/Shedu/Khom/Drakgoon/Ogris. I don't mind using them but the limited set of interesting ones makes me prefer primaries.

And say what you will, Warframe's only last leg is fun. That's the whole reason we play this game, it's not a job, a time investment yeah but if this wasn't fun then much less of us would be here. Trying to kill a very fun part of the game that's clearly extremely popular can only be seen as a dumb move regardless of any reasons, balance being the least of them to me. At no point have I ever felt less because of getting less kills or not using a meta weapon, I fully well realize that a Saryn on any map will out kill everything even if it had a Fat-man and unlimited ammo nor would I be selfish enough to deny other players something fun because of my feelings towards it. Warframe is anything but balanced, attacking one of the few fun bits remaining with such a blatantly BS nerf is just wrong from every angle.

Edited by StormWolf1337
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13 hours ago, Uthael said:

I'm just happy I get to play Public again.
Without the visual and audio spam, I mean

This is really disgusting.

The visual effects bother you - you whine that the brahma is too strong, it is made unplayable.

You are satisfied.
Say that visual effects bother you? No no no...

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I don't walk over every single corpse to pick everything enemies dropped. But to sustain Bramma I have to. Nerfed ammo pickups was more than enough. Having tiny ammo pool just adds a stupid space janitor minigame.

Exilus slot is not an excuse. Wasting another forma to craft a bandaid for a forma sink weapon shouldn't even be considered when "balancing" it. I can nuke a room much more efficiently and with much less forma investment by just using a nukeframe. Or killing everything with melee. But DE probably thinks that spamming 4 or E is more fun and engaging than aiming at least in general direction of enemies and avoiding self-staggers.

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57 minutes ago, Kefirno said:

I don't walk over every single corpse to pick everything enemies dropped. But to sustain Bramma I have to. Nerfed ammo pickups was more than enough. Having tiny ammo pool just adds a stupid space janitor minigame.

Exilus slot is not an excuse. Wasting another forma to craft a bandaid for a forma sink weapon shouldn't even be considered when "balancing" it. I can nuke a room much more efficiently and with much less forma investment by just using a nukeframe. Or killing everything with melee. But DE probably thinks that spamming 4 or E is more fun and engaging than aiming at least in general direction of enemies and avoiding self-staggers.

Bram spam is the most stupid excuse I've heard.
Nerf Brahm is the most stupid nerf you can imagine.

The number of people wanting something nerf in cooperative PvE game about the farm - in need of hard nerf.

 

Also DE haven't reverted the change yet?

What are they hoping for? I spent 40 hours to get this bow. I will spend 400, if necessary, on the forum, so that everyone hears that they treated me like that.

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6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

This is the only statement I need to tell you are wrong.

Actually, you need facts to do that. Your argument gets worse and worse every post at this point.

You are better off being honest and admitting that "The Bramma is pretty comparable in terms of Dps with the Lenz. But it's popular, and I hate nice things."
 
6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Because you somehow imply causation here, when there is none. What does Lenz killing lvl140 prove, exactly?

So you claimed that the Bramma was overpowered.

Lmao. Your argument gets worse and worse by the minute. So the definition of "overpowered" is as following:

o·ver·pow·er
/ˌōvərˈpou(ə)r/
 
verb
past tense: overpowered; past participle: overpowered
  1. overcome with superior strength.

This is the definition of overpowered. I compare both the Lenz and the Bramma with the same mods, against the same enemy, in the same situation. The Bramma doesn't have superior strength to the Lenz. It has comparable strength.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

You have shown no comparative evidence of Lenz doing that better than the Bramma.

Except that I compared the Lenz and the Bramma with the exact same mod setup. The Bramma took 5x the amount of shots the Lenz took to kill it. I even purposely wait for slash procs to tick, so in the demonstration, I only fired as many shots as was necessary.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

 I have shown quite the opposite.

Really? Is that so? Link me the video you made where you compared the Lenz and the Bramma with identical builds. You are a liar, until you do so. Meanwhile, I made several examples of the Lenz and Bramma.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

But you ignored it of course, it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Do you know what "projection" means.

Its a word that means you accuse me of what you are guilty of. Here you are projecting. You ignored my video evidence comparing these weapons because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Likewise, you are too scared to compare the weapons yourself.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

It is baffling that you do not seem to grasp the difference between absolute and relative power.

Except that I know more about the Lenz and the Bramma after a few days of testing then you do. I understand how these weapons work, I understand how when and why the Lenz beats the Bramma. You only know the Bramma, so you insist it's overpowered when you are completely ignorant of everything else.

I know both weapons short comings, and strengths. The Bramma would be overpowered if it simply had one change. One, itsy, bitsy change. If the Bramma had a 50% crit chance, it would be Op.

I have a question for you. Would you prefer a 100% chance to do 31k true damage and a 36% chance to do 130k true damage that ignores armor, OR would you prefer a 26% chance to do 51k true damage.

Answer this question above honestly.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

It is baffling that you boast about the Lenz being better than the Bramma, without showing AoE tests against groups, which is the most viable way to kill in this game.

Except one little problem there chief. I could show you how the Lenz does against AoE test targets. You would ignore it again. I showed the performance of each bow with the same mods against a single target so you could see the difference between the two bows in a fair comparison.

Doing the same comparison in an AoE situation leads to the same result. The Bramma has a slightly larger AoE area. But the performance of the bows doesn't change. The Lenz still comes out on top.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

It is also baffling that you keep resorting to cheap insults for... what exactly?

For the sake of being honest. Your arguments get worse, and worse, and worse. You clutch at straws, you ignore blatant evidence. You can't even admit that the lenz outperformed the Bramma.

I have no reason to accuse you of being intelligent. So until then, I won't.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Trying to demean someone who’s actually trying to approach this logically?

Let's be honest Shon. Your entire argument is based on anger. You have no facts. What evidence have you examined? Where are your own comparisons? Show me the math you have done.

You are pathetic. Did I show a video with the Bramma and the Lenz against the same level 140 enemy? Yes. Where the mods in both weapons the same? Yes. Did the Bramma take more shots to kill the enemy? Yes.

Did I fake anything? No. The maximum performance of these weapons is tied to a 30% chance to proc a bleed. The Bramma has a lower chance to proc this bleed then the Lenz.
However you cannot admit this, as that would require you to be honest.

Now. You aren't going to change my mind. You argument only gets weaker and weaker. Unless you actually take the time to research both weapons, don't bother replying. You are so delusional, that it's honestly sad.

If you want me to make an AoE video comparison between the Lenz and the Bramma, ask for one. Otherwise, stop pretending the Bramma is the boogeyman in the closet.
 

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Cool, all that fluff threads that where derailing into trolling got merged.

So, since we get a whole big thread full of feedback, I'll just give mine on the Bramma itself instead of making attempts to find logic where there is none.

After changes where made, I decided to run the Bramma for a bit.  Here's how it worked out.

It is still effective at killing enemies.  The added falloff was imperceptible against kuva flood level opponent.  It killed level 100 enemies reliably and in an area of effect.  It was rare to have to take a second shot.  The weapon was still toddler level easy to use, just as before.

I equipped vigilante supplies and couldn't get the weapon under two arrows.  The ammo count does nothing at all to enforce aiming because it is too easily ignored.  In a practical use level 100 mission, I couldn't get the weapon under two ammo if I tried.

The visual noise seemed to be at a manageable level, but to be fair I hadn't noticed the issue before.  Just the same, it seemed fine in this regard.

Overall, I wouldn't call it overpowered, but it was extremely powerful, and a person starting the game today and obtaining it in a few weeks would have a hard time believing that the weapon didn't get introduced exactly the way it is right now.

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1 час назад, Thrymm сказал:

 

I doubt it.
Try playing arbitrage with level 3000 mobs and tell me how you feel.

I will say right now that this is the worst main weapon in the game. Even with MK1 you can do at least something with the help of mods, but that ...

Edited by Bandileros
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4 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Really? Is that so? Link me the video you made where you compared the Lenz and the Bramma with identical builds. You are a liar, until you do so. Meanwhile, I made several examples of the Lenz and Bramma.

lol

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Here's your proof, I posted it somewhere in page 21 but of course you didn't even notice it (was it because I put it inside a spoiler? You know, you have to click on those). Around 37s vs 60s clear time. With a Viral build for both the Bramma and Lenz (or even a corrosive build on the Lenz, which would benefit it more), the difference becomes even more relevant, since Bramma has many more damage instances to proc viral, and way more status chance.

I'll avoid your absurd and convenient "analysis" of the Lenz and Bramma's damage potential, since you totally ignore bomblets, their proc chance for both HM and the massive damage buff Viral provides... Also, 100% chance for true damage? Do you even know how probabilities work? With 3 arrows from Multishot, which happens only 50% of the time (each has 3 damage instances, direct, cold aura and actual blast, only the latter is relevant enough to warrant attention in terms of damage), and a flat 30% chance to proc HM because of >100% crit, the probability of zero (relevant) slash procs is (1-0.3)^3=34%. In the other 50% of cases, the chance of 0 slash procs is (1-0.3)^2=49%

Also, the number of arrows to kill a single enemy is irrelevant in determining the top weapon. What matters is DPS and TTK: in the amount of time Lenz shoots an arrow and reloads (1.2s charge + 0.6 reload) Bramma has shot twice and is two thirds of the way in reloading (0.4s charge, 0.6 reload, 0.4 charge, 0.4/0.6 reload), giving it massive advantage in status coverage on multiple targets. Also, the numbers you show (1 arrow for lens, 5+ for the Bramma), are just convenient extremes that suit your argument. When multiple tests are done against single enemies, TTK on average is still faster for Bramma. 

Here's video proof of that as well, among some other testing shenanigans. (I'm not going for max efficiency in fire rate, but keeping in mind the previous information about charge and reload times, every instance in which 2 arrows are used for the Bramma counts as a single Lenz arrow in terms of speed and DPS. Even without that in mind, the difference in one shots is quite staggering)

Spoiler

 

Once again, video inside the spoiler above. 

So, you demonstrate you are unable to understand basic probability, purposefully ignore weapon mechanics to fit your agenda, and yet I'm the dishonest, pathetic, and unintelligent one. Now, I'm sure you'll cling to whatever excuse you can think of to disprove even the video evidence, so I'm really wandering what it will be... Maybe the single rank of point strike that I forgot to switch out (which matters very little on the Lenz, because as you stated the main damage comes from an explosion hm proc, the probability of which stays the same since with both variations, Crit Chance is >100%)? Or maybe you'll claim I'm purposefully playing worse with the Lenz? It would be fun to take bets, and I'll be happy to make more comparisons if you reckon these are maliciously executed.

Edited by (XB1)ShonFr0st
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53 minutes ago, Bandileros said:

I doubt it.
Try playing arbitrage with level 3000 mobs and tell me how you feel.

I will say right now that this is the worst main weapon in the game. Even with MK1 you can do at least something with the help of mods, but that ...

I enjoy this response, but yeah, I think we're done here.

 

 

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Bandileros:

I doubt it.
Try playing arbitrage with level 3000 mobs and tell me how you feel.

I will say right now that this is the worst main weapon in the game. Even with MK1 you can do at least something with the help of mods, but that ...

The bramma?

After this guy is the bramma even against +7000 useful.

If you were talking about an other weapon sorry.

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2 минуты назад, ES-Flinter сказал:

The bramma?

After this guy is the bramma even against +7000 useful.

If you were talking about an other weapon sorry.

Oh, that's great. But ... This is not about me.

For me, playing a warframe is an already very difficult farm and having fun with Bramma is one of the few things that reduced the stress level from an overwhelming amount of farm.

Play was not so fun. It started to keep me on my toes, and I don’t need a weapon that makes me constantly stressed. I do not need a game that makes me constantly suffer from a lack of ammunition.

 

Playing at such levels with a new bramma has become much more intense.

No, this leads to a quick burnout - 1 hour of the game and I have a desire to remove the warframe.

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Did all the new posts about bramma post-patch just got merged into this 1.5 month old post that asked for bramma to be nerfed pre-patch?

Two completely different topics since its not even the same weapon anymore...

DE asks for feedback regarding the bramma changes but I'm afraid it doesnt matter what feedback we give because nobody is going to read though 20+ pages of pre-patch comments of an old topic to even get to the post-patch feedback.

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On 2020-06-14 at 7:24 PM, Thrymm said:

Cool, all that fluff threads that where derailing into trolling got merged.

So, since we get a whole big thread full of feedback, I'll just give mine on the Bramma itself instead of making attempts to find logic where there is none.

After changes where made, I decided to run the Bramma for a bit.  Here's how it worked out.

It is still effective at killing enemies.  The added falloff was imperceptible against kuva flood level opponent.  It killed level 100 enemies reliably and in an area of effect.  It was rare to have to take a second shot.  The weapon was still toddler level easy to use, just as before.

I equipped vigilante supplies and couldn't get the weapon under two arrows.  The ammo count does nothing at all to enforce aiming because it is too easily ignored.  In a practical use level 100 mission, I couldn't get the weapon under two ammo if I tried.

The visual noise seemed to be at a manageable level, but to be fair I hadn't noticed the issue before.  Just the same, it seemed fine in this regard.

Overall, I wouldn't call it overpowered, but it was extremely powerful, and a person starting the game today and obtaining it in a few weeks would have a hard time believing that the weapon didn't get introduced exactly the way it is right now.

Didnt you notice the effective aoe being smaller? few shrapnels contribute to it too

And the damage doesn't matter as much since DE nuked scaling past lvl80. lvl5000 now is something like old lvl~150

Edited by Monolake
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The new Kuva Bramma is absolute rubbish. Five arrows??? If not every shot hits the target or opponents need more than 1 arrow, the weapon is empty so fast that it becomes completely useless. From an absolute fun weapon it has become the new MasteryPointwaste.

But the guys from Warframe do that again and again (Catchmoon!), why should I still look for good equipment? Three months later, they can forget it anyway.

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On 2020-06-16 at 1:40 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

@(PS4)UltraKardas

Dude, so after I provide the evidence you asked for, you just peace out?

Except the evidence you provided made the Lenz and the Bramma perform nearly identically in terms of shots fired. Bramma fired about 20 shots, and the Lenz was around 18. Except the difference was the bramma was level 34, and had a maxed out point strike. 

The Lenz on the other hand wasn't given a maxed out point stirke. The entire reason the Lenz beats and outperforms the Bramma is because of the Lenz's 125% crit chance, vs the Bramma's 87.5%. 

It would have been a fair comparison if gave the bramma the same point strike mod-  Reduce its crit down to 78% or so. 

On 2020-06-14 at 11:56 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

lol

Here's your proof, I posted it somewhere in page 21 but of course you didn't even notice it (was it because I put it inside a spoiler? You know, you have to click on those). Around 37s vs 60s clear time. 

Except clear time means literally nothing when he's jumping across the map and not trying to be particularly efficient. Nor are the videos even an honest comparison when it comes to mod setups. Yes, a crit mod being maxed out does make a difference. 

On 2020-06-14 at 11:56 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

I'll avoid your absurd and convenient "analysis" of the Lenz and Bramma's damage potential, since you totally ignore bomblets, their proc chance for both HM and the massive damage buff Viral provides...

Bomblets have a habit of only hitting enemies around them. Bomblets also do 1/8th of the Bramma's base damage. In the update, they do about 3/8th damage. Meaning that they never do more then half of the Bramma's damage. (They never hit the same target, and rarely initersect. 

On 2020-06-14 at 11:56 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Do you even know how probabilities work? 

In fact I do. I actually mistypoed that part, the chances of are closer to 48%. However, this is still a higher percentage chance then the Bramma. More so when the Cluster Bombs get removed to 3. 

I'll be posting an actually honest video comparing the Bramma and the Lenz AoE. I'll get both weapons to highest potential (No rivens, no arcanes etc.) And show you an honest comparison. 

On 2020-06-14 at 1:48 PM, ES-Flinter said:

The bramma?

After this guy is the bramma even against +7000 useful.

If you were talking about an other weapon sorry.

This is a cool video. But corrupted heavy gunners have more health then level 9,999 infested.

Level 140 corrupted heavy gunner 2,491,287.91

Level 9,999 ancient healer 429,685.07 Level 9,999 Ancient Healer Parasitic Eximus: 1,289,055.21 About half the corrupted heavy gunner. 

Kinda crazy how corrupted enemies scale with armor. Numbers are taken from the Wiki here: 
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ancient_Healer

Edited by (PS4)UltraKardas
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7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

perform nearly identically in terms of shots fired.

Which is just a convenient way to say you ran out of arguments, because that doesn't matter in the slightest. We are determining the most apt weapon to use in general play between Lenz and Bramma, ergo how long it takes to kill hordes. Bramma has almost twice the fire rate of Lenz, so, since shots fired are almost identical, it also has almost twice the DPS. The Bramma is also far, far easier to use, considering that hitting the enemies isn't mandatory, you can just hit the floor, as I showed. I was generous and honest, and didn't bring as an example a Lenz that only used its AoE by shooting the floor, because that was just sad to watch, and instead I tried to aim for heads.

7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except the difference was the bramma was level 34

Level doesn't matter, in the slightest. It doesn't give any advantage, it just boost mod capacity which was left unused. I see you are just grasping at straws.

7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

and had a maxed out point strike

Between this and the fact you really, actually said I was purposefully playing worse, just as I predicted, makes me want to start a fortune telling business. As a complaint it's petty, and changing it doesn't really make the outcome any different. Do you really think a single point strike rank can bridge the gap between the two? When one has almost twice the DPS? Still, technically it's legitimate, so I'll post videos of (nearly) maxed Bramma and Lenz, plus another comparison with the half build, corrected. As I said, the outcome doesn't change, still massive differences in clear times.

7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

when he's jumping across the map and not trying to be particularly efficient.

It was to simulate active gameplay. So, enemies shooting at you and you having to pick up ammo. As you can clearly see, Lenz runs out pretty fast, and often. There's a comparison, of single enemies with paused AI, and still Bramma massively outmatches the Lenz. With the same build. Again, the point strike does not matter, the chance of an HM proc with the explosion is the same, and that is what actually kills. 

7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Bomblets have a habit of only hitting enemies around them. Bomblets also do 1/8th of the Bramma's base damage. In the update, they do about 3/8th damage.

Which is exactly why Bramma is so much better. The bomblets hit enemies around and the target, and prime them with viral and slash procs. The damage falloff doesn't matter, as long as the bomblet still hits, what matters is the proc chance. A single Viral proc doubles your DPS. Which you know, is pretty massive. Also, we are not talking about post nerf Bramma. That is probably fine. We are still talking about pre-nerf Bramma, which you ridiculously asserted wasn't the best, most braindead gun for general play, and wasn't worthy of a nerf. I'm proving you wrong on that specific point, just because of how hilarious it is.

7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

In fact I do. I actually mistypoed that part, the chances of are closer to 48%.

I really think you don't, you probably just thought "3 arrows, >100% crit, so guaranteed 30% proc from HM.... Let's just add 30% three times, so we get 90%, and then make it 100% to sound cool". Show me your calculations and the reasoning behind them, then I'll believe you, because otherwise it's pretty hard to conceive that you misspelled or mistook an overall chance of  58.5% (1-((0.5*0.49)+(0.5*0.34))) of at least 1 relevant slash proc for a blatantly inaccurate 100%.

Video stuff

Bramma rank 4 point strike, 6 mods

Yeah, this run basically goes sub 30s. And, less crit chance should affect the Bramma way more. 

Lenz, (almost, the 60/60 could be switched for a 90) full build

Spoiler

 

Bramma full build (almost, the 60/60 could again be swapped for a 90 with 1 more forma. Also, this is corrosive: Viral scales way better and at higher levels puts the Lenz even more to shame, and using viral allows you to slot primed cryo rounds. Unfortunately I'm just MR17, so I can't show higher levels in the simulacrum, I could use Nox or Railjack Gunners and the difference would be even more staggering, but it still is.)

Spoiler

 

20s clear time vs 10s clear time. You have absolutely nothing to cling on here. I don't know how this sounds "comparable" in any way, shape, or form, the difference is abyssal, and there are no rivens involved, and not even arcanes. A crit arcane would make Bramma's dps skyrocket. Just admit you are wrong, so I can be done with this. 

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On 2020-06-16 at 8:53 PM, Sinnery66 said:

The new Kuva Bramma is absolute rubbish. Five arrows??? If not every shot hits the target or opponents need more than 1 arrow, the weapon is empty so fast that it becomes completely useless. From an absolute fun weapon it has become the new MasteryPointwaste.

Ye I completely agree, sometimes it takes like 3-4 shots just to kill a Knox enemy while shooting it in the face, and that is only around level 80.

But of course you have people here claiming they could kill level 280+ enemies with it instantly, even though its clear they havn't even tried it, its sad how this forum is filled with so much disinformation and its even sadder that DE listens to a select few people and then nerf stuff into the ground instead of balancing it properly.

Edited by IIAc3sII
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, IIAc3sII said:

But of course you have people here claiming they could kill level 280+ enemies with it instantly, even though its clear they havn't even tried it, its sad how this forum is filled with so much disinformation and its even sadder that DE listens to a select few people and then nerf stuff into the ground instead of balancing it properly.

I've monitored Bramma threads around 1 or 2 months after it came out. No one claims to oneshot 280+ enemies. It doesn't mean anything, it still outclasses all other non-melee weapons. By outclass I of course mean that it out performs all others in all major categories.

If you want to make an actually strawman argument (note, I however do see people throwing that around without seeming to know what it means) there are subtler and truer ways to do it.

Edited by SpringRocker
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