Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion

StormWolf1337 · June 21, 2020

Well after all this time I've come to accept that D.E just hates fun, goes against the concept of making a game but the evidence is in everything they mess up, nerf and change to be boring. D.E is the fun police and we all know we aren't supposed to be having fun in their game, no no no, this isn't the place for fun. Just grind, little to no respect for your time/investment, RNG and a riven system designed to get a lot of money out of unsuspecting people. Plus that Kuva slot machine, so much fun. Bramma = fun so kill it, Tombfinger primary is fun = kill it in minutes. Wonder what next fun bit get's the nerf axe, I'm sure D.E can top this.

Also, why the hell did my post get absorbed into this biased one?! The OP of this clearly loves nerfs and doesn't use the Bramma, seems disingenuous to push my pro-Bramma post into this baseless drivel of misinformation.

(PSN)Pragmatic_2015 · June 21, 2020

The other solution for the "Bramma Issue" is to diversify your loadouts. For example my above post. Full Arca on my Slova, Gara's signatures used by Gara, Gauss's signatures used by him exclusively.

SpringRocker · June 21, 2020

3 hours ago, StormWolf1337 said:

Also, why the hell did my post get absorbed into this biased one?! The OP of this clearly loves nerfs and doesn't use the Bramma, seems disingenuous to push my pro-Bramma post into this baseless drivel of misinformation.

You mean the pages of debate? Or how about the pages of testing? How about the pages where people were talking about mechanics behind mod classes and why that matters? Or how about the one point where I was proven wrong and accepted it?

Read any of it? No? Sure... And you call me the bias one 🙄 .

If you want braindead gameplay go play "Cookie Clicker" or "Candy Crush", this game is already basically ruined by people crying about wanting all content and mechanics made irrelevant. This game is well on it's way to being "Grind'Ville: Warframe Edition" what more do you want?

(XBOX)ShonOfDawn · June 21, 2020

@(PS4)UltraKardas

It is extremely annoying how you read exclusively what you want to read, and completely avoid the hard, factual evidence that dismantles your point. Now, I'll make 4 last points that condense the reasons why Bramma used to be disproportionately powerful. If you still care about proving you are right, respond to each of them, and do not pick and choose whatever suits your argument.

1. Damage per second is the only useful measure in calculating effectiveness.

In an unsuccessful attempt at making the Lenz seem closer in power to the Bramma, you keep referencing damage per projectile instead of damage per second. The issue with damage per projectile is that it completely removes time from the equation, thus rendering differences in rate of fire meaningless in the comparison. This suits your point of course, but it misrepresents weapon effectiveness, because damage per projectile doesn't tell anything about kills per minute. A weapon can have infinite DPP, but if it shoots once per minute, its KPM will be abysmally low. Damage per second (or DPS) on the other hand is in function of time, and as such, knowing the EHP of your targets, can give insight on KPM. Why does KPM matter? Because most gamemodes revolve around killing efficiently. In survival, higher KPM means more life support drops. In ESO, KPM is the whole mechanic that determines failure or success. In Defense, higher KPM means faster waves and more effective farming. Same for Exterminate, and any other missions that at least incentivizes killing: higher KPM means faster completion times. You are right when you say that RoF isn't the only factor in DPS, the only issue is that I've been saying that from the very beginning. The Bramma has higher damage per projectile and higher RoF, so its DPS is disproportionately higher, and it can be proven empirically and mathematically with the footage I've shown and that I'll keep showing in the following points.

2. Your test, and how you maliciously modified the kill times to suit your argument.

On 2020-06-19 at 7:46 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

From the first shot my Lenz at 21 seconds, till the last enemy dies at 34 seconds

My Bramma takes its first shot at the 1:14 mark. It kills everything in 9-10 seconds, which puts us at the 1:24 mark. Lenz took 13 seconds, with a charge rate of 1.5 and a two second blast delay compared to the 10 seconds, of the Kuva Bramma.

This is totally inaccurate, on purpose. If you really check the video frames for kill times, the results are totally different. And it is pivotal, because this is a test that highly favors the Lenz. I'll repost the frame checks, I hope you read them and verify them for yourself this time.

On 2020-06-19 at 10:55 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

You purposefully cut out Lenz's initial charge time, and purposefully delayed the actual moment in which all enemies die with the Bramma. Watch again, carefully. Let's do some framchecks, shall we? You can move single frames with "," and "." on a YouTube video. I assume the footage is 30fps when in 720p, so every frame is 33ms You start charging the Lenz at the tenth frame of second 20, so 20,330s. The last enemy dies at the 17th frame of second 33 from a slash proc, so the time is 33,561. 13,231 seconds TTK (I use comma to separate the integer part from the decimal part, sorry, I'm European). The Bramma starts charging at frame 23 of minute 1:14, so the timing is 1:14,759. The baffling part is the end point. The last arrow clearly lands at frame 20 of minute 1:21. Just watch when the damage numbers appear. So, 1:21,660. And you put 1:24 just to bloat the numbers in your favor. TTK of 6,901 seconds. 13,231 vs 6,901s. The ratio is 1,92. That means the Lenz takes (almost) twice the time to kill the same 10 heavy gunners.

Let's reiterate. 41 million EHP dealt, around 13 seconds for the Lenz, around 7 seconds for the Bramma. Those numbers are rounded in favor of the Lenz, mind you. That's an effective 3,15 million Damage/Second for the Lenz, and 5,85 million Damage/Second for the Bramma. That is unquestionably a massive difference, Bramma, as expected by theoretical calculations (the ones you dismissed as me "being desperate to make an argument"), has almost twice the damage per second.

On 2020-06-20 at 3:21 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Unless my video comparion was unfair, or dishonest, you have lost the argument.

So yes, your comparison was unfair, because bunched targets favor the Lenz excluding the bomblet contribution, and dishonest, because you maliciously skewed the numbers in favor of the Lenz.

3. Bramma has a much higher crowd clearing potential, because of bomblets and higher innate blast radius.

Your test completely removes crowd clearing capabilities as an element of comparison. That's why I used live targets, or at least spaced out targets, for mine. Here's video evidence of Bramma severely outperforming the Lenz, with no ammo involved this time.

Bramma starts charging right at the beginning of second 12. The last gunner dies at the beginning of second 22. 10s TTK.

Lenz starts charging in the 15th frame of second 12, so around 12,5s. The last gunner dies right at the beginning of second 32. 19,5s TTK. Once again, this shows how Bramma has twice the Damage Per Second.

Now, let's address ease of use against said crowds. These are tests purposefully avoiding headshots or bodyshots, just using the bows' innate AoE to kill the enemies. You said:

On 2020-06-19 at 7:46 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Both weapons are fully capable of that same feat. The real difference between the two weapons is the charge time, and the delay between the explosions. The Lenz doesn't require to hit enemies either. It's radius is more then sufficient to hit enemies.

And here's hard truth:

40s and 46s TTK for the Lenz, and I'm being generous. 11s and 14s TTK for the Bramma, and I'm being conservative. You might also notice that both weapons have R4 point strikes, which doesn't hurt the Lenz that much, but reduces HM proc chance for the Bramma since it has <100% CC. Bramma can be blindly shot with much more ease, and its damage falls off much better thanks to bomblets that keep proccing slash. When you say that Bramma's damage wasn't nerfed in the patch, you are mistaken. Bomblets were reduced from 7 to 3, removing instances of damage that could proc true damage (slash) and damage boost (viral/corrosive), making the weapon scale worse against armor. And about scaling....

4. Bramma scales much better against armor.

That's because of the higher numbers of slash and viral procs. Here's a test against Gokstad Officers. At level 115, they have 5,4 million EHP (thanks to its 98% damage reduction) compared to a corrupted heavy gunner's 1,9 million EHP (96% damage reduction). I'm using your same method, bunched enemies, which as shown, is detrimental for the Bramma and favoring for the Lenz.

Bramma 8s and a bit less than 7s TTK. Lenz a bit less than 30s TTK for the first test, 34 s for the second, but because of Larva recasting and me getting hit by the knock back, I'll reduce it by 7s, which is more than the time lost, so 27s, and 25s for the third. Again, massive differences.

I hoped I was done with this, but the fact that you completely ignored what I had to say really annoyed me. Face it, the Bramma was disproportionately powerful, all the tests show that it had, at least, almost double DPS than the Lenz. But you had to lie in your own test to save face, which is laughable honestly. If you really want to respond, address all 4 points. Don't even bother responding if you intend to ignore parts of my argumentation as you see fit. The data is all here, and it's honest. Wherever I could, in the various roundings of numbers for TTK and DPS, I leaned in favor of the Lenz on purpose, but even then the difference is just immense between the two.

ShortCat · June 22, 2020

On 2020-06-19 at 7:46 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

My Bramma takes its first shot at the 1:14 mark. It kills everything in 9-10 seconds, which puts us at the 1:24 mark.

On 2020-06-20 at 3:41 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The enemies are still alive until the 1:22-1:24 mark.

On 2020-06-20 at 3:21 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Sorry the facts don't line up with you chief.

There are clearly no enemies at 1:22. I admire your full commitment to this farce, even when people call you out on it. Not like it's the first time.

(PSN)UltraKardas · June 23, 2020

On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

@(PS4)UltraKardas

It is extremely annoying how you read exclusively what you want to read,

Just like you do for example? Must it be even more annoying then, cause you do it all the time. Furthermore, you don't even try fair comparisons. You do things like put a maxed point strike on a Bramma, then don't for the lenz in one video.

Or. You put a primed cryo mod on the bramma, then put a dual status mod on the Lenz. The problem there chief? Both weapons aren't on a fair playing field. You are too lazy to either forma the Lenz to put the same raw damage mods on the Lenz, or not honest enough to put the same mods on both bows and see how they perform against a single enemy, or an effective method of testing its damage vs groups.

Yeah. Your videos mean nothing to me, until you put them on a fair playing field. (Like say testing both bows only using hunter munitions, raw damage mods, crit mods, and vigilante armaments. Oh wait. I already did that.

Alternatively, you could get the same results I get using a maxed out point strike on the Lenz. (It's almost like you purposely stop the lenz from getting its full 125% crit chance. I wonder why.... Huh... Why would you do that? Could it have anything to do with you being disingenuous? I think so.

On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

1. Damage per second is the only useful measure in calculating effectiveness.

Nope. This is what a novice to the game would think. The Lenz and the Bramma have the same reload time. The Bramma shoots 3x faster then the Lenz. .4 charge time vs 1.2.

Despite the difference in charge time, the Lenz doesn't take 3x as long to kill. This is despite the fact the Lenz has a 2 second delay on its explosion to boot.

There are 4 aspects to effectiveness. #1 Status Procs #2 Sustained and Burst dps. #2 Ammo economy #3 Special modifiers.

#1 Status Procs circumvent the need for DPS when applicable. An ancient healer nearby but you don't know where? You either kill an enemy through 90% damage reduction. Or you equip a handy dandy viral and radiation built weapon. Radiation cancels the damage reduction aura, viral reduces enemy health. The more health an enemy has? The more viral reduces the DPS needed to kill it.

Like wise Status Procs lower the dps requirement using corrosive to strip armor. Burn for dot damage and armor strip. Slash procs to ignore everything.
#2 Burst vs Sustained DPS.

Bramma with its ammo pool is all burst damage. It charges up a shot, and fires. If it doesn't hit, or deals negligible damage? Its dps is nil. This happens when you fight enemies who have damage caps.

A corrupted nullifier has a damage cap on his shield. You can only do a maximum of 400 damage to his shield per projectile. A weapon built for sustained dps, such as the akstilleto, acceltra, soma, or any weapon capable of sustained dps kills these targets faster. That's because the minimum damage they deal is 100+ but shoot more then 1 shot per second and don't have to reload after every shot.

#3 Ammo economy. Self sufficient. Bramma is worthless against weakspot enemies. Even more so when there's no enemies to kill like in certain boss fights, against certain enemy types, or in certain situations. Eidolons, Exploiter Orb, and Sentients quickly reduce this weapon to a shiny thing on your back without ammo.

#4 Special Modifiers. What are these? Anything from pre-nerf covert lethality to Garuda's first ability. These mods, abilities let you insta kill upon certain conditions. They don't do dps per second, they just kill instantly on certain conditions. Pre-Nerf Covert Lethality didn't have Damage per second. You simply got an insta kill regardless of conditions upon a finisher. That made covert lethality one of the strongest things in the game. Now the closest thing we have to it is Garuda's abilities.

Garuda is probably the best example of there being more then just raw damage per second. Her first ability insta kills enemies below a threshold of health. Doesn't matter if the enemy has 756 million health left. You get them below the threshold, and their dead.

More so, Garuda's ultimate works just the same way. The damage it does is relatively minor. No real consequence truth be told. What it can do? Mark every enemy it hits so they get guaranteed slash procs. Not 30%. 100%.

If there is an enemy your dread mirror explosion can't kill an enemy? Maybe you shoulda used her ult and turned it into a slash proc.
This includes anything from warframe powers, damage increases, crit damage or chance multipliers and so on. Garuda is a nigh perfect example of special modifiers.

On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

2. Your test, and how you maliciously modified the kill times to suit your argument.

This is totally inaccurate, on purpose. If you really check the video frames for kill times, the results are totally different.

Nope. Kill times are unmodified for both the Bramma and the Lenz. Perhaps if you used a maxed out point strike for your Lenz, and built it for raw damage you could replicate these results.

Instead you will pretend my video is fake. Its much easier to deny the truth, then accept that the facts. Bramma and Lenz were unmodified in anyway. Hence I used both weapons together in the same loadouts. All enemies were grabbed both times, and both weapons performed direct hits to get the bulk of their damage.

On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Let's reiterate. 41 million EHP dealt, around 13 seconds for the Lenz, around 8 seconds for the Bramma. Those numbers are rounded in favor of the Lenz, mind you.

Yea no dice. In your original quote you said Bramma killed in 7 seconds. I corrected your quote for you. Then you pretend you are doing the Lenz a favor. Despite that, you say my video is manipulated as you continue to skew results for the Bramma.

It takes longer then 7 seconds for the Bramma to kill.

The Lenz takes nigh like 13 seconds to kill. Rounding them to the nearest number puts this at 8 and 13.

Bramma has a .4 charge time and is like this at 1:14.
Screen_Shot_2020-06-22_at_11.13.00_PM.pn

Then 7 seconds later we get this.

Enemies not dead yet chief.

Your dps calculations are off once again. But hey! You got the Lenz dps right. Still even in your skewed numbers? You still didn't get double the dps you wanted. That's too bad.
I actively timed this, since you can't be trusted. Last enemy didn't die for the Bramma till like 8.3 seconds. (This is me timing it from the very, very, very first sliver of the Bow charging up and firing.

That puts it at 4.9 million dps.

Lenz took 13.2 seconds. That's 3.1 million dps. Its actually pretty reasonable difference. This is like the difference between a Vectis, and a Vectis Prime. Vectis Prime mind you does more then 50% damage per shot, on top of hire crit chance, and a larger magazine and a faster reload.

On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

In an unsuccessful attempt at making the Lenz seem closer in power to the Bramma, you keep referencing damage per projectile instead of damage per second. The issue with damage per projectile is that it completely removes time from the equation, thus rendering differences in rate of fire meaningless in the comparison.

Wrong, and for the Wrong reason.

I go into a level 70 mission. I fire with the Lenz. The enemy is still alive 1.9 seconds later. Do I need to start charging up another shot? No. That one shot will kill it. The Lenz has the power to kill any level 70 instantly, minus something crazy like raid bosses.

The Bramma also kills the enemy in a single shot. The time difference between charging both bows don't matter in this situation. Both bows have more then ample enough damage to kill it in a single shot.

This is why shots to kill matters more then Time to kill. I can use other weapons, warframes, and abilities to KILL faster then the Bramma. Time to kill is far from everything.

Damage per shot is a more honest comparison. You know why? Because unlike you, I don't fire more shots then I need to. The strength in the Bramma isn't the fire rate. The fire rate is nice. It can fire shots faster. However the fire rate isn't the reason its overpowered.

Let's say DE decides to nerf the Bramma to 250 blast damage, and 31 per damage for 8 cluster bombs. Suddenly the fire rate of the Bramma doesn't matter. Vomiting out more shots is nice for burst dps, but it kills your sustained dps if your ammo economy can't keep up. You get a similar weapon scenario of the Twin Vipers, who have incredible fire rate, but very little impact.

On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

So yes, your comparison was unfair, because bunched targets favor the Lenz excluding the bomblet contribution, and dishonest, because you maliciously skewed the numbers in favor of the Lenz.

And this is incorrect. Each comparison was direct hits vs direct hits. How is a direct hit against a clustered mess of enemies unfair? Even if you are playing without grouping up enemies, most cluster bombs DO NOT hit your main target. Most of them don't even connect with enemies. The Bramma's main explosion typically kills them before the cluster bombs do.

Cute try though. Still wrong.

This is wrong because you get the same situation if you compare both bows against a single enemy. I can't make the cluster bombs hit the enemies I'm firing directly at. You are just mad that I didn't unfairly make all the cluster bombs hit the same enemy. (Something that rarely happens actually. The Bramma typically kills everything in the initial explosion.

On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

3. Bramma has a much higher crowd clearing potential, because of bomblets and higher innate blast radius.

Sure. Except that isn't everything. It has a SLIGHTLY larger blast radius. It also has a higher damage falloff. The Lenz gets a maximum of 70% reduction, the Bramma gets 90%.

The Bramma gets one more meter of range, but loses more of its damage. The biggest difference between the bows is honestly just the ammo capacity of the Lenz. (Till they nerf the Bramma to have 1 shot less then the Lenz. )

On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Your test completely removes crowd clearing capabilities as an element of comparison.

And this is incorrect.

I actually cleared crowds much faster then you, in both the use of the Bramma and the Lenz. I don't muck around with your completely flawed videos. You mess around, instead of just killing the things. The best comparison is grouping the enemes up, or fighting a single target. Neither you do.

You just spam, then go. "SEE! UNINTELLIGENT SPAMMING!" Yea. NO dice kiddo. Mindless spamming means so little to me, that you more you show me mindless spamming, the less I know you have no other argument. I could only do... Oh. Maybe 40 different ways of killing those enemies faster? Most enemies run to you in a map. Most rooms require enemies to get to you. Sorry. Like everything you have said? Not Impressed. Not even close. You haven't made a good argument. Mindless spamming isn't a good argument, and never will be.

I commend you on using the same point strike mod on your Bramma as you do the Lenz. But I continually find it odd that you purposely avoid putting that a maxed out point strike mod on the weapon. I keep asking myself... Hmmmmm Why is avoiding making it crit the most? Why is he putting a status element mod on the lenz, (which has no status mind) then you put a primed cryo mod on the Bramma. 🤔 :thinking:

Hmmm. It's almost like you are purposely going out of your way to avoid accurate results. How perculiar. It's almost like... You so desperately want to pretend you are right, that you don't give the Lenz's full power. Now why would you do that.

The world may never know.

(PSN)UltraKardas · June 23, 2020

21 hours ago, ShortCat said:

There are clearly no enemies at 1:22. I admire your full commitment to this farce, even when people call you out on it. Not like it's the first time.

Except they aren't dead at the 1:21 minute mark either. Screen_Shot_2020-06-22_at_11.12.28_PM.pn

Sure. Killing them at 1:22 would be the 8 second mark. However this puts the difference between the Lenz and the Bramma at 5 seconds, or 5 shots vs 6.
Here's proof enemies still alive at

Nice try. Still wrong though.

(PSN)UltraKardas · June 23, 2020

On 2020-06-19 at 2:55 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Bramma:

5 arrows -> charge-reload-charge-reload-charge-reload-charge-reload-charge. Charge time: 0,4s Reload time: 0,6s Total time: (0,4s*5+0,6s*4)=4,4s

Dps: 41*10^6/4.4s=9,32 million DPS

Just going to ask you a question.

How did you jump from 9.32 million dps back to nigh half of that? Do you not check your facts? Or do you honestly try to fire auto arguments like a machine gun? Asking for a friend.

You can include it to why you don't put a max point strike on your lenz, or the Bramma.

(XBOX)ShonOfDawn · June 23, 2020

And of course, our lord and savior @(PS4)UltraKardas, master of weapon comparisons, is nowhere to be found, even though he has responded to other topics in the meantime. Maybe he finally understood how much he was in the wrong, or maybe he's just counting the number of bullets a Braton Prime requires to kill a gunner.

(XBOX)ShonOfDawn · July 1, 2020

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Just like you do for example?

Where. Just where. I responded to every single one of your argumentations every time they were relevant to the conversation. If I left them apparently uncovered, it probably is just because other parts of my reply cover them. You, on the other hand, purposefully ignored whole parts of my posts, the prime example is totally avoiding me calling you out on that purposefully, maliciously incorrect 10s kill time you showed from the Bramma in your video. I'm still laughing from that pitiful attempt, and don't worry, I'll cover your second pitiful attempt to sway the data in a moment.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You do things like put a maxed point strike on a Bramma, then don't for the lenz in one video.

I admitted it in the same post in which I showed the video, justifying myself that it honestly didn't matter for the Lenz. And that was confirmed once again when I posted a video of the Bramma with that same R4 point strike, which as expected, still dwarfed the Lenz, on the same playing field.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Or. You put a primed cryo mod on the bramma, then put a dual status mod on the Lenz.

Uhm, where? In all the videos of my previous post, I actually remove Primed Cryo Rounds from the Bramma exactly for that reason. You are so much in denial of the factual evidence you are presented with that you invent non existing faults, all because you lack the intellectual honesty to admit you are wrong. This is further reinforced by the fact that you do not show additional evidence in any way. You just negate everything I throw at you for the pettiest reasons, and go on infinite tangents that do not concern the discussion whatsoever.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Yeah. Your videos mean nothing to me, until you put them on a fair playing field. (Like say testing both bows only using hunter munitions, raw damage mods, crit mods, and vigilante armaments.

They are on the same playing field, completely. They have the exact same mod set ups in every single one of my videos. The only mistake was the point strike in the first 2 videos I posted, and that was promptly fixed, because it was a legitimate complain. It still didn't show any difference. The 60/60 mod is just there because I don't want to forma both weapons one more time, but it is still there for both, reducing both weapon's damage output. The difference a 90% mod would make is marginal, and simply, mathematically, cannot bridge the two-fold dps gap between the weapons, but you blow it out of proportions because you have nothing else to cling to.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Alternatively, you could get the same results I get using a maxed out point strike on the Lenz. (It's almost like you purposely stop the lenz from getting its full 125% crit chance. I wonder why.... Huh... Why would you do that? Could it have anything to do with you being disingenuous? I think so.

Here are the same tests in which R4 mods were utilized for both weapons, but rectified:

Live crowds

Spoiler

Bramma: 12s, 10s, 11s TTK. Lenz: 28s (I wasted a couple of seconds turning around. Even if we give it 8s less, Bramma still kills twice as fast) and 22s

AoE test

Spoiler

Lenz: around 40s, around 35s, around 30s (rounded in favor of Lenz). A post nerf Bramma, with 4 less cluster bombs per arrow, still took around 13s.

Guess what. No changes, again. Bramma kills twice as fast, or close to. They were rank 4 because I filmed those videos right after filming the 6 mod setup, corrected with rank 4 mods for both guns, and just forgot to switch them. I knew it didn't matter, and it didn't matter, as the data shows, that's why I didn't pay that much attention to them.

Anyway, do you see the pattern? I can't make this up, even if I tried. And trust me, I liked the Bramma in its former iteration, and would have loved for it to have been perfectly balanced and unworthy of a nerf. But that, factually, was just not the case. It outclassed every other primary, by a decent margin. And as such it needed to be nerfed, which it was.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The Lenz and the Bramma have the same reload time. The Bramma shoots 3x faster then the Lenz. .4 charge time vs 1.2.

Despite the difference in charge time, the Lenz doesn't take 3x as long to kill. This is despite the fact the Lenz has a 2 second delay on its explosion to boot.

The following tangent is completely unrelated to the discussion. It unsuccessfully tries to change the topic of discussion from Damage Per Second, using wrong assumptions to do so. Here's why.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#1 Status Procs

Status procs were considered in my tests. Why? Because I calculated DPS using the EHP of the enemies killed, divided by the number of seconds it took to kill them. So, the EHP reductions applied by Corrosive, Slash, Heat, and Viral were compounded into the final value.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#2 Burst vs Sustained DPS.

Bows in warframe don't have such a thing as "burst" dps. Burst dps is generally considered throughout a single magazine or instance of time, without accounting for reload times/down times inherent with the weapons. The tests were conducted as Sustained DPS tests, because multiple arrows were shot over an extended period of time. In that instance, Bramma completely beat the Lenz. Also, because of the intrinsic delay in the Lenz's explosion, that means Bramma, even in one shot territory for both weapons, always beats the Lenz in terms of Burst, as enemies will be dead on impact, rather than after the delay. Also, you mention nullifiers. Bramma, because of bomblets and separate instances of damage, can easily one shot a nullifier bubble, while Lenz takes multiple arrows to complete the same task.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#3 Ammo economy.

Irrelevant with ammo mutation, in regular content. Bosses are worthless outside of eidolons, and those are niche content with an incredibly tight meta. The comparison was for regular play, and in regular play ammo economy is relevant only for bullet hoses like the kohm or other rifles. Doesn't affect the Bramma (pre-nerf, which is what we are talking about), nor the Lenz.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#4 Special Modifiers.

Insta-kills are still tied to the amount of time required to perform said insta kills. DPS is the most important factor because it is directly tied to the ultimate statistic: Kills per minute. Even insta-kills require time (i.e. Covert Lethality finisher animation, and Garuda's 1 animation), so their effectiveness can be expressed in KPM, which is still a function of time. Also, no special modifiers affect the Lenz or the Bramma.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Nope. Kill times are unmodified for both the Bramma and the Lenz. Perhaps if you used a maxed out point strike for your Lenz, and built it for raw damage you could replicate these results.

Your words:

Quote

My Bramma takes its first shot at the 1:14 mark. It kills everything in 9-10 seconds, which puts us at the 1:24 mark.

Also your words:

Quote

The enemies are still alive until the 1:22-1:24 mark.

Still your words:

Quote

Sure. Killing them at 1:22 would be the 8 second mark.

Oh would you look at that beautiful descending pattern. You absolutely maliciously modified the data to suit your argument, the fact that you progressively shift from a blatantly fake information to something that represents reality more closely (but still inaccurately) is enough proof. You are a liar.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Instead you will pretend my video is fake. Its much easier to deny the truth, then accept that the facts. Bramma and Lenz were unmodified in anyway. Hence I used both weapons together in the same loadouts. All enemies were grabbed both times, and both weapons performed direct hits to get the bulk of their damage.

Yeah, except you clearly faked the TTKs the first time, and that I've done the exact same in a higher EHP scenario against Gokstad Officers, and yet in that scenario somehow my tests "show nothing", despite both guns having the exact same builds.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I go into a level 70 mission. I fire with the Lenz. The enemy is still alive 1.9 seconds later. Do I need to start charging up another shot? No. That one shot will kill it. The Lenz has the power to kill any level 70 instantly, minus something crazy like raid bosses.

The Bramma also kills the enemy in a single shot. The time difference between charging both bows don't matter in this situation. Both bows have more then ample enough damage to kill it in a single shot.

This is why shots to kill matters more then Time to kill. I can use other weapons, warframes, and abilities to KILL faster then the Bramma. Time to kill is far from everything.

This is... laughable. You basically admit that Lenz kills enemies 2 seconds later than the Bramma, just because of mechanics, which is already a point against the Lenz. You then randomly state that charging time doesn't matter when killing a single target. Which is completely incorrect. Let me give you a scenario. First: you turn a corner in a mission. You see a single level 100 lancer. If you have the Lenz in your hand, it takes you 1.2 seconds of charge time +2 seconds of delay to kill it. In that time, the lancer can shoot you freely. If you have the Bramma in your hand, it takes you 0.4 seconds to charge the bow and kill the lancer. That's 3.2 seconds vs 0.4 seconds of the Lancer being alive. That's 1.2s versus 0.4s of you focusing on a single target. Which gun was more effective? Just scale that up, and you clearly see why your reasoning makes no sense, because there's literally no reasoning. You say "the Lenz kills in one shot, the Bramma kills in one shot, therefore charge times mean nothing and the weapons are equal" which is pure nonsense. Also, once again you bring frames in the discussion. They do not matter for the purposes of this. Of course you can nuke everything with Saryn, Equinox or Mesa (hell even Garuda in a closed environment like the simulacrum). We are discussing on why the Bramma totally dominated the primary slot, leading to a massive power imbalance that made said Bramma the only worthwhile choice, because of how good it was in general play. This is something regarding the primary slot, and the primary slot exclusively. If you can find a primary that consistently outperforms, unbuffed, without rivens, the old Bramma in terms of TTK and braindead use in all of the tests (single mass of EHP through nidus, active crowds, standing crowds), then you might have something to show, but until now, it's been just words from your part. I highly doubt you can achieve that.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Damage per shot is a more honest comparison. You know why? Because unlike you, I don't fire more shots then I need to. The strength in the Bramma isn't the fire rate. The fire rate is nice. It can fire shots faster. However the fire rate isn't the reason its overpowered.

Is a more honest comparison in what way? What are you talking about? If you compare two rifles, let's say a Baza and a Rubico, both crit-based primaries, do you count shots? If you compare a Tigris and Kohm, both status-based shotguns, do you count shots? An Exergis with an Hek? A Sybaris with a Tiberon? A Lanka with a Comorex? A rakta/prime cernos with a Daikyu? If you had to draw comparisons between melees, would you count the number of swings? How is this honest, when weapons vary in fire rate and attack speed, and those very same attributes have massive influence in their performance, as they modify TTK? How does removing completely that part as a point of comparison somehow allow for a more fair study? A Bramma arrow deals as much damage, if not more, than a Lenz arrow. It covers a wider area, thanks to bomblets. It applies more status, thanks to bomblets. It deals multiple instances of damage to destroy nullifier bubbles. And on top of that, it shoots 1.8x faster.

You don't fire more shots than you need to. So, I assume that in every mission, you patiently wait for each slash proc to finish your targets, while being riddled with bullets, instead of shooting some more and ending it quicker. You know, it's funny, because in your test (nidus one) you never stopped to wait for slash procs, but you instead kept shooting until everything was dead, as fast as you could, and then threw out fake numbers to calculate skewed DPS. So what is it?

Also also, "However the fire rate isn't the reason its overpowered". Your words, not mine. So it is overpowered after all, you admit it yourself. You know it is, yet you keep on with this charade because you are way too arrogant and way too ignorant to recognize your own dissonance. You instead cling to unreasonable, unimportant and petty complaints, and base your entire argumentation on "if"s. "if you build Lenz with just 6 mods, it's stronger than the Bramma" "If you build Lenz for raw damage, it's stronger than the Bramma" "If you give it a R5 point strike, it's stronger than the Bramma" "If you don't shoot it at moving enemies, it's stronger than the Bramma" "If you don't consider fire rate, it's stronger than the Bramma" "If you consider Ammo Economy, the Bramma is weak""If you look at X frame, the Bramma is weaker, so it's not overpowered". Most of those have been already proven wrong, those that haven't, is just because I don't want to invest resources to prove something obviously wrong. And yet you keep piling excuses on top of excuses, running in circles around the core of the discussion instead of addressing it, and adamantly refusing to READ and WATCH irrefutable evidence that proves the exact contrary, exploiting or outright inventing the smallest, irrelevant detail to somehow disprove reproducible facts. You are a fool.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Vomiting out more shots is nice for burst dps, but it kills your sustained dps if your ammo economy can't keep up.

The highlighted part is pretty important, because pre-nerf Bramma never runs out of ammo, even without a mutation mod, as long as you kill stuff. Increasing fire rate does increase sustained DPS: a rifle that deals 1000 damage with a clip, consumes that clip in 2 seconds and reloads in 1 has 333 sustained DPS. If you bump the fire rate so that it consumes the clip in 1 second, its sustained becomes 500 DPS. Yeah you'll use more ammo, but in our case, Bramma has almost twice the fire rate of Lenz, and 3 times the ammo capacity, and killing stuff makes you never run out, so yeah, Bramma has much higher sustained DPS at no cost whatsoever.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

How is a direct hit against a clustered mess of enemies unfair? Even if you are playing without grouping up enemies, most cluster bombs DO NOT hit your main target. Most of them don't even connect with enemies. The Bramma's main explosion typically kills them before the cluster bombs do.

How is it unfair? The Bramma can get to much farther enemies than the Lenz thanks to bomblets. You can see them easily connect with enemies in all of my videos. Even if there's high damage fall-off, targets can still be hit with viral, that lowers the TTK for those farther enemies, thus lowering the overall TTK, and shots required to kill. Area coverage is a defining statistic of AoE weapons, and as such they should be tested in an environment that allows that characteristic to show its worth. If you bunch up enemies, even a gun with low area coverage like the Kuva Chakkurr can damage multiple enemies with the same shot, thus artificially inflating its DPS to a value that's not representative of its actual power. By bunching enemies, you give the Bramma a disadvantage, because you take out of the equation one of its defining characteristics. Not that it matters, as the Bramma still dominates.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Sure. Except that isn't everything. It has a SLIGHTLY larger blast radius. It also has a higher damage falloff. The Lenz gets a maximum of 70% reduction, the Bramma gets 90%.

Your words:

Quote

The bomblets function to extend the range

The area coverage video also proves you wrong. You can clearly see how Bramma, even when shot in the middle of the group, clearly hits or outright kills those in the corners, while the Lenz struggles a lot to accomplish the same. It's factual, and pretty relevant. Especially when piled on top of all the other tests: what you seem to be missing here is that the Bramma, even in your faked data, outperforms the Lenz in every aspect. All those single instances in which the Bramma is better (Shots to kill single targets, TTK of single targets, ammo economy, area coverage, ease of use, lack of delay, fire rate and DPS) just show how overwhelmingly powerful the gun was. That was what you argued against, saying that it was balanced for its power level, and unworthy of a nerf. Now, the gun was nerfed and you yourself call it overpowered. I've already won, and you don't even realize it.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The biggest difference between the bows is honestly just the ammo capacity

And, you know, the fact that the Bramma has almost twice the DPS. But for you that's irrelevant of course.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I actually cleared crowds much faster then you, in both the use of the Bramma and the Lenz.

Where? Just where? Why are you making stuff up now? You just posted videos of Lenz killing single heavy gunners, and then the Nidus test. If you mean that one, you used an ability which not only by itself completely invalidates the comparison between the two, but also expropriates the concept of "crowd" of its own meaning, by making that crowd a single target. We are comparing the weapons, no abilities involved. What's baffling is that even then, the Bramma has still almost twice the DPS.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You mess around, instead of just killing the things.

Again, where? Just point out the time stamps. In the post you are referencing, there's just straight damage against crowds. Whenever I got knocked down/wasted time, I removed that idle time from the TTK calculations. You are once again grasping at straws.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

or fighting a single target.

For an AoE weapon. Meant to kill enemies in an area. Makes sense. Also, why would bunching enemies be the best comparison? What is your reasoning behind that? I argue that bunching enemies totally removes range from the equation. Which is pretty important for an AoE weapon. If you test the DPS of a dagger and a greatsword against multiple enemies, do you bunch them up? Also, why would anyone use firestorm or primed reach if range wasn't important, as you make it sound? And yet, Primed Reach is basically mandatory in most melees for optimal crowd clearing, guess why? Because it allows you to hit more stuff, thus making enemies die faster all around you. It's exactly the same with Bramma and Lenz, you are scared to fight actual crowds because you know the Lenz has even less chances to beat the Bramma there. And considering the chances are still 0 for the Lenz, I don't see that going too well.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You just spam, then go. "SEE! UNINTELLIGENT SPAMMING!"

Nah. I spam, then go "See, this tactic the majority of people use in most missions? That of shooting high range explosives thoughtlessly, to slaughter as many enemies as possible without any effort? It's pretty effective because stuff dies without the need for aiming, and look, Bramma does it 3 times as effectively compared to the Lenz. Pretty relevant huh?"

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Oh. Maybe 40 different ways of killing those enemies faster?

Oh, I'd be very curious to see all 40 of them. Then show me how many of those 40 ways involve a single primary, with no buffs, abilities or rivens. I guess there will be none, further confirming that the Bramma was by far the best primary, leading to no load out choice, thus damaging the game.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Most enemies run to you in a map. Most rooms require enemies to get to you.

Yeah, but definitely don't come packed neatly in a Nidus meatball. They'll come a bit spread out, and Bramma will kill them all before the Lenz has even finished charging.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

But I continually find it odd that you purposely avoid putting that a maxed out point strike mod on the weapon.

It's funny that you still keep clinging to this single, pathetic excuse, when I've already told you and showed you how R4 point strike hurts the Bramma way more than it hurts the Lenz. You've brought it up 3 times just in your last post, it is quite clear that it's your only excuse to keep your attitude of denial. But now you have videos of R5 for everything, and nothing really changed. Guess it's time for a new excuse.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Hmmm. It's almost like you are purposely going out of your way to avoid accurate results.

Said the one who keeps purposefully making up false kill times.

On 2020-06-23 at 8:58 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except they aren't dead at the 1:21 minute mark either.

Except they are.

I'll repeat this. One, last, bloody time.

First, even with 13 seconds for the Lenz and 8 seconds for the Bramma, that is still 62% more DPS for the Bramma. Which is absurd, and singlehandedly proves that the Bramma was overly powerful. The Lenz isn't a progression weapon. It is supposed to be powerful, and endgame worthy. And yet the Bramma has way more DPS, more area coverage and ease of use. But the fact is that, still, those numbers are rounded WAY in favor of the Lenz.

If we actually want a fair comparison, we need a fair way to determine kill times. Here's how we can do it: by frame checking. That means looking at the footage frame by frame to calculate times, with a 33ms precision. I've done that, but you ignored it. Nothing new here. Here's how I did it, so you can easily check for yourself that I'm not lying, not that I have any reason to. The first frame I took for both weapons was the instant in which red appears on the charging circle, meaning the charge has initiated. The last frame I took was when the last damage number appeared: both weapons have heavy FX, so it's hard to visibly confirm the death of enemies. However, damage numbers give the exact instant the damage is dealt, and the last damage number shows the instant the enemy received fatal damage. You can easily go through a YouTube video frame by frame by stopping it and pressing . and , to go, respectively, backwards and forwards one single frame. This are the findings that I posted ages ago on your SUPPOSEDLY PERFECT AND FAIR video.

The footage is 30fps when in 720p, so every frame is 33ms You start charging the Lenz at the tenth frame of second 20, so 20,330s. The last enemy dies at the 10th frame of second 33, so the time is 33,330. 13 seconds TTK. The Bramma starts charging at frame 23 of minute 1:14, so the timing is 1:14,759.The last arrow clearly lands at frame 20 of minute 1:21. Just watch when the damage numbers appear. So, 1:21,660. TTK of 6,901 seconds. 13s vs 6,901s. The ratio is 1,88. That means the Lenz takes (almost) twice the time to kill the same 10 heavy gunners. These are the true numbers. From YOUR video. Bramma has 88% more DPS. I guess that categorizes as "way overboard" but you'll surely say it's not.

On 2020-06-23 at 9:02 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Just going to ask you a question.

How did you jump from 9.32 million dps back to nigh half of that? Do you not check your facts? Or do you honestly try to fire auto arguments like a machine gun? Asking for a friend.

Don't worry, it's just your ignorance playing tricks on you once again. I don't fire arguments. I think pretty carefully when writing and reading. You seem to have very serious problems with both parts, but the latter in particular. See, if you weren't completely blinded by your ideas, you would have read the disclaimer I put down before writing those numbers:

Quote

I'm assuming perfect rate of fire for both weapons, meaning charge time + reload time, which is unfeasible in normal gameplay, but treats both weapons fairly since it removes user error completely.

In that calculation, I took the perfect fire rate. You see, when using charge, semi-auto weapons, there's a lot of user error. You might hold the charge a bit too long. You might start charging the next arrow a bit too late, after it has been already nocked and readied. In all of this, you lose precious seconds that lower your overall DPS. So, since you accused me of purposefully playing worse, I assumed the same for you, and made the playing field fair for everyone. The number of arrows used to kill those enemies is factual: 5 for the Bramma, 6 for the Lenz. They were perfect hits for both weapons. What isn't factual is the amount of time taken to shoot those arrows. As I said, one might wait a bit too long to start charging or to release the arrow. So I standardized it for both, using the minimum amount of time required to shoot them, which is derived from charge time and reload time. Those are the results with perfect fire rate. Again, it's impossible to achieve such precision normally. In fact, the faster the weapon shoots, the harder it is to perfectly time shots. But, it gives decent insight on overall effectiveness, and this is corroborated by the fact that actual, practical results, aren't that far off from the theoretical ones. DPS for Bramma is still around the 2x multiplier.

Now that Deadlock is out even on consoles, this conversation has finally lost all of its meaning. The Bramma was overpowered, and it was nerfed. I don't know if it was nerfed enough, but only time will tell that. My thesis was exactly that: the Bramma was overpowered because it was by far the best primary in the game for all non-boss encounters. I've brought my argumentations, and showed my evidence.

While you? You just kept moving the goal post. Whenever something you said was disproven, you immediately switched your thesis to something else. It's interesting, because you started by saying stuff like:

Quote

Both the Lenz and the Bramma can have a similar killing potential up to level 100.

There's a dozen weapons that have higher dps, or are better at killing other things.

The truth of the matter is; the Lenz has a maximum damage potential of around 130k true damage. This is the Lenz critting twice with hunter munitions. The Bramma on the other hand has a maximum damage potential of around 51k true damage.

Shame the Bramma with the same mods isn't consistent enough to do the same thing. The struggles of not having 100% crit chance without a riven.

That's why it takes one shot for my lenz to kill it. Then 5 shots for the bramma. The lenz is a naturally more consistent weapon.

You were boasting about the Lenz's power the whole time, and yet that gun hasn't beat the Bramma in a single test. Some time later, you say:

On 2020-06-23 at 8:54 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

That puts it at 4.9 million dps.

Lenz took 13.2 seconds. That's 3.1 million dps. Its actually pretty reasonable difference.

So, before the Lenz was "naturally more consistent", had more "true damage", shared "similar killing potential", but then, after tests give factual evidence, a difference of 1.8 million DPS (60%) is somehow reasonable? And again, that difference is in favor of the Lenz; accurate measurements of the same test show a nigh 90% difference in DPS. You are completely incoherent with your own words, and are just trying to one-up me without anything solid for the sake of saving face. It's over. See ya.

(PSN)UltraKardas · July 2, 2020

On 2020-07-01 at 12:17 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

again when I posted a video of the Bramma with that same R4 point strike, which as expected, still dwarfed the Lenz, on the same playing field.

Except that I posted several videos of the Bramma and the Lenz with the same mods, and got more accurate results.

Instead, you try to negate the Lenz's main strong point over the Bramma by not using maxed out crit mods. Likewise, you showed a bunch of builds that made no sense, weren't even fair comparisons and pretended you had a point.

On 2020-07-01 at 12:17 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Uhm, where? In all the videos of my previous post, I actually remove Primed Cryo Rounds from the Bramma exactly for that reason.

Not in the video I saw. You had a dual status element mod on the Lenz, then a cryo mod on the bramma.

Which is a dishonest comparison, (As the Lenz isn't known for its status) and you put a cryo mod on the bramma. None of your "Comparisons" have been particularly honest.

On 2020-07-01 at 12:17 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

all because you lack the intellectual honesty to admit you are wrong.

Sounds alot like you.

Sounds like when you tried to make the Bramma out to have 9 million dps. Sounds like every thing you said. Oh. And none of that you can admit. How odd.

On 2020-07-01 at 12:17 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

The difference a 90% mod would make is marginal,

Incorrect. The Bramma and the Lenz have almost identical base damage on their explosions. 700 some odd damage vs 870 something odd damage. Giving the stronger weapon an extra 30% more damage is a dishonest comparison between the two.

Btw. You know how I know everything you say is wrong? Pretty simple. You still haven't come up with a single credible reason why my Bramma vs Lenz 20 corrupted heavy gunners is unfair, or wrong.

As the post before me mentioned. Doesn't particularly matter anymore. And besides~ The Bramma doesn't have more ammo then the Lenz anymore, so 98% of your videos are invalid. I can't replicate your videos anymore, without running out of Bramma ammo, just like you run out of ammo with the lenz.

(XBOX)ShonOfDawn · July 4, 2020

On 2020-07-02 at 8:57 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except that I posted several videos of the Bramma and the Lenz with the same mods, and got more accurate results.

"Several"... You posted 1 comparative video. 1 video that shows how the Bramma has 88% more dps than the Lenz. Meanwhile I posted 3 additional kinds of tests, all of which saw the Bramma victorious by a huge margin.

On 2020-07-02 at 8:57 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Not in the video I saw.

Then you must be seeing different videos than those I posted. In every single one of my videos, both weapons have the exact same builds, although I switch between Viral and Corrosive. In both builds, there's a 90% elemental and a 60/60. No weapon has an advantage. But again, if you see discrepancies, make screen shots and show me.

On 2020-07-02 at 8:57 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Sounds like when you tried to make the Bramma out to have 9 million dps.

...have you even read my previous post all the way through? I guess not.

On 2020-07-02 at 8:57 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Giving the stronger weapon an extra 30% more damage is a dishonest comparison between the two.

Both weapons have a 90% mod and a 60/60 mod. If I were to switch the 60/60 for a 90% in both builds, I would still get, comparatively, the same output. No more damage, you are either making it up or don't understand basic game mechanics. Probably both.

On 2020-07-02 at 8:57 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You still haven't come up with a single credible reason why my Bramma vs Lenz 20 corrupted heavy gunners is unfair, or wrong.

Unfair, because you maliciously modified the kill times. (Friendly reminder: you haven't even addressed the frame checks. After I posted them for the third time). Wrong, because bunching enemies with an ability defeat the purpose of an AoE weapon. But still, I don't have to prove anything or give any justification. In your test, the only one you seemingly consider worthy of analysis, Bramma has 88% more DPS. I gave you, step by step, the method to calculate kill times. Everything I wrote is verifiably and reproducible. You, simply cannot counter that, and the fact that you kept avoiding directly responding to this criticism time and time again not only is a clear tell that you know you are in the wrong, but also says a lot about your intellectual honesty.

On 2020-07-02 at 8:57 PM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

As the post before me mentioned. Doesn't particularly matter anymore. And besides~ The Bramma doesn't have more ammo then the Lenz anymore, so 98% of your videos are invalid. I can't replicate your videos anymore, without running out of Bramma ammo, just like you run out of ammo with the lenz.

Oh I know. I just want you to admit you were wrong on saying that the Bramma wasn't overpowered, and admit that you argued dishonestly, purposefully ignoring argumentations and maliciously modifying data to suit your point.

(PSN)UltraKardas · July 5, 2020

5 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

"Several"... You posted 1 comparative video.

Might want to check your fact chief. I made several videos. You might want to make a habit of at least trying to be correct.

Spoiler

4 videos+ is several. In the first two videos, the Bramma and the Lenz are about equal with the Bramma needing to fire an additional shot, to the Lenz needing an additional shot in the third video.

Try to get your facts right.

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Then you must be seeing different videos than those I posted. In every single one of my videos, both weapons have the exact same builds,

Except for you know. Your very first ones that were blatantly different so you can pretend the Bramma is op. The one where you don't put a max point strike on the lenz. (Oh wait. I haven't seen a single video where you put a max point strike on your lenz.)

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Both weapons have a 90% mod and a 60/60 mod. If I were to switch the 60/60 for a 90% in both builds, I would still get, comparatively, the same output.

Except you are wrong. a 60/60 mod does very little for the lenz since it has no status chance. Adding an additional 30% element gets turned into a crit a minimum of once, with a possibility of critting two additional times. (25% chance for a second crit, then a lower chance if you have vigilante mods.) At minimum, you are adding 200 raw damage, that turns into 400 damage because its guaranteed crit, (+840 damage with hunter munitions), 800 damage with two crits (+1680 damage with hunter munitions) , and rarely 1600 damage with three crits (+3360 damage with hunter munitions). This is all without vital sense mind you. You take all these numbers and multiply them by 2.2 to get the damage a 90 elemental mod would give the lenz. It does make a difference.

This works for both the Bramma and the Lenz, but on the bramma you have flexibility of making use of its status chance. So you can either lose raw damage and your hunter munition procs, in exchange for other status procs.

But aren't you the same person who *EARLIER* in this thread asked me to explain to you why more then raw dps matters? As usual, I think you are backwards buddy. And I can tell this is the case, with the new hard mode that was released. The same hard mode that *reportedly* gives enemies an additional 2x health modifier, 3x armor modifier on top of increasing enemy levels by 100.

Status isn't included in raw dps. Neither are insta kill abilities, or other such methods of dispatching enemies. These enemies also can't be stripped of all their armor. They keep 10% of their armor.

Using our good old friends, Corrupted heavy gunners for example. Level 130 CHG has 83,686.45 health and 7,841.75 armor. Except in hard mode you double the health, and triple the armor. That gives a CHG 167,372.9 health and 23,525.25 armor. (that's 98.7% damage reduction. If you strip 90% of their armor, you bring them down to 88% damage reduction.)

A level 130 CHG in hard mode has 12,874,838 health. If you strip the armor as much as you can, they only have a total of. 1,394,774 health. This is less then the total health of a normal CHG, but we can strip all the armor of a normal CHG to bring it down to 83k health.

Stripping that armor, or bypassing it completely with hunter munitions is how you deal with that 98% damage reduction. (88% damage reduction isn't much better...)

6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Unfair, because you maliciously modified the kill times.

Nope.

Neither the kills times for the Bramma nor the lenz were modified. Both weapons were used back to back. The video is un-edited, and this can be proven. On ps4 (which is where the video was recorded, the base video only shows up under the warframe application if it is un-edited. Doing anything to it, or saving it removes it from the Warframe save file tab, and puts it into "Other tab" where anything saved or edited goes.

If you were honest, you would admit both weapons were used fairly. Shame that isn't the case. Sorry buddy, but most of what you say is just blatantly wrong. (Like your 9 million bramma dps calculation.)

Also wrong kinda like how you forgot I made several other videos in this thread for research. Trying being a bit more accurate. Not like it matters since the Bramma is unusable with its current ammo restrictions.

Shame, cause it would be a balanced weapon in hard mode right now. Shame you and people like you ruined a perfectly good weapon, right before content basically designed for the bramma comes out.

And as hard mode as my ultimate vindication? Hard mode even makes Saryn useless. But hey. At least the Bramma's damage is still the same. At least I can get out 5 shots before I run out of ammo and melee the rests of the level. (Too bad the Bramma isn't even good when it gets its damage reduced to 1.7% xD)

SpringRocker · July 5, 2020

On 2020-07-02 at 11:57 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Instead, you try to negate the Lenz's main strong point over the Bramma by not using maxed out crit mods.

Just wanted to point out that That the per shot crit and damage co-efficient is for the Lenz is 1005 and the Bramma is 1162 (not counting cluster bombs nor arrow impact). Not only that but as an expression of dps that pushes the Bramma forward.

Even though it's not as easy as applying linear calculation, you can apply the numbers yourself on your own and post if you want.

Ice_Peck · July 6, 2020

On 2020-06-12 at 5:13 PM, StormWolf1337 said:

Still doesn't excuse that ammo pool of 5.

Yeah I guess learning to control yourself is too difficult.

StormWolf1337 · July 6, 2020

2 hours ago, Saberfrost said:

Yeah I guess learning to control yourself is too difficult.

I haven't been part of this tread for ages dude, why draw me back in? xD I still hate that ammo pool, I still hate the ammo conversion rate of the Bramma vs other weapons. I still view it as an assassination attempt on a fun weapon in a horde shooter game that lacks horde shooter made weapons. Thankfully my Shedu is even better if not as damaging and there's also that OP Tombfinger kitgun.

More AOE weapons are needed in this horde shooter. Also Warframe has never been about self control, it's an anime power trip in space, self control in something as chaotic as this would be a singular effort ignored by the vast majority that would kill a lot of fun.

(XBOX)ShonOfDawn · July 6, 2020

@(PS4)UltraKardas

Quote

Except for you know. Your very first ones that were blatantly different so you can pretend the Bramma is op. The one where you don't put a max point strike on the lenz.

Every single video in which that happened, was remade per your request. I posted it, but you forgot it. In your 4 videos, 1 is just a survival with the Lenz. Not comparative. One, has 6 mods. The other, laughably puts toxin as the element on both weapons. The only one close to endgame worthy is your "AoE Test". And:

On 2020-07-04 at 9:26 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

In your test, the only one you seemingly consider worthy of analysis, Bramma has 88% more DPS. I gave you, step by step, the method to calculate kill times. Everything I wrote is verifiably and reproducible. You, simply cannot counter that, and the fact that you kept avoiding directly responding to this criticism time and time again not only is a clear tell that you know you are in the wrong, but also says a lot about your intellectual honesty.

Just address it. It's the 4th time I repost it. And I'm getting really tired of you ignoring whatever doesn't suit your argument.

(PSN)UltraKardas · July 7, 2020

15 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

@(PS4)UltraKardas

Every single video in which that happened,

You can't even count right. One minute you say "You never made any videos" the next you say "The Bramma has 9 million dps"

Then you say "The video where the Lenz took 6 shots to kill the same 20 enemies the bramma killed in 5 shots." IS UNFAIR. How dare you use both weapons to hit all enemies at once with direct hits. Yea... Let me just skew the results in a dishonest comparison.

How dare you use both weapons in the most advantageous way possible!

Yea. You really don't have much credibility with me when you don't acknowledge the 18 some things you got wrong. Everything from "Bramma has double the dps of the Lenz" to most of your other comments have been proven and blatantly wrong.

You can't even put a maxed out point strike on your lenz, and as far as I've read? You avoid answering why at every opportunity. Funny.

15 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

@(PS4)UltraKardas

1 is just a survival with the Lenz. Not comparative.

And the other three are- You just can't come to terms they prove you wrong. So you pretend they don't break your narrative. Primed Fever Strike was the toxic mod I used if I recall correctly. Almost like I want the largest boost to damage, so that hunter munitions hit the hardest.

Except that they do prove you wrong. The early videos I made showcase how the Bramma has more total potential to the Lenz, but the Lenz is a better weapon early on. (That's why the Lenz kills in one shot early on, and the Bramma takes like what? 1-2 additional shots? The difference? Lenz isn't as easy to mod, it doesn't get free mod capacity with every forma. It's also just isn't as fast as the Bramma. Despite that... and despite not having a free elemental bonus the Bramma does... My videos proved they perform nearly identical.

That's why the videos compare the bramma to whatever forma and exact same mods my lenz has. I also use max ranked mods for honesty.
Maybe that's why they removed the Bramma's ammo down to only 5 shots. Fairly certain the Bramma in my AOE video killed in 5 shots, compared to the Lenz's 6.

But you can't actually logically disprove my argument. So here we are. The changes to the Bramma have been made. No DPS change. Result? DE agrees with me (For the time being...) That the Bramma's dps isn't an issue. (I"ll find something else to disagree about with DE. Don't worry.)

So where does that put us?

You claim Bramma does double Lenz's dps. Proven false.
You claim that the Bramma's dps was too much. No change to damage values from the nerf. Appears to be proven false.
You claim that my comparisons are unfair or a joke. Again. Proven false.
You claim that only raw dps matters. Lastly proven false from the myriad of status effects, warframe abilities, arcanes, and auras. (Like say corrosive projection) that currently dominate the meta. (Armor stripping mostly, See hard mode for details!)
You claim that I ignore points.
Odd considering you ignored my entire post. You do that alot when research comes against what you claim.

Maybe you should realize that when nothing you say has been accurate, because you (intentionally or otherwise) exaggerate; that your opinion isn't reasonable, nor is it as accurate as you would like it to be.

But by all means, keep trying to argue your opinion. I'll be happy to keep this going on the status of a fun weapon that opinions like yours already nerfed into the ground.

Shame nobody actually got use the Bramma for hard mode. Would have been nice to use the Endgame Bow for endgame content. Now it just runs out of shots as fast as you run out of logic.

(XBOX)ShonOfDawn · July 8, 2020

On 2020-07-07 at 2:35 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You claim that I ignore points.

On 2020-07-06 at 10:47 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Just address it. It's the 4th time I repost it. And I'm getting really tired of you ignoring whatever doesn't suit your argument.

Now the 5th, and counting.

On 2020-07-07 at 2:35 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You claim Bramma does double Lenz's dps. Proven false.

On 2020-07-01 at 8:17 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

If we actually want a fair comparison, we need a fair way to determine kill times. Here's how we can do it: by frame checking. That means looking at the footage frame by frame to calculate times, with a 33ms precision. I've done that, but you ignored it. Nothing new here. Here's how I did it, so you can easily check for yourself that I'm not lying, not that I have any reason to. The first frame I took for both weapons was the instant in which red appears on the charging circle, meaning the charge has initiated. The last frame I took was when the last damage number appeared: both weapons have heavy FX, so it's hard to visibly confirm the death of enemies. However, damage numbers give the exact instant the damage is dealt, and the last damage number shows the instant the enemy received fatal damage. You can easily go through a YouTube video frame by frame by stopping it and pressing . and , to go, respectively, backwards and forwards one single frame. This are the findings that I posted ages ago on your SUPPOSEDLY PERFECT AND FAIR video.

The footage is 30fps when in 720p, so every frame is 33ms You start charging the Lenz at the tenth frame of second 20, so 20,330s. The last enemy dies at the 10th frame of second 33, so the time is 33,330. 13 seconds TTK. The Bramma starts charging at frame 23 of minute 1:14, so the timing is 1:14,759.The last arrow clearly lands at frame 20 of minute 1:21. Just watch when the damage numbers appear. So, 1:21,660. TTK of 6,901 seconds. 13s vs 6,901s. The ratio is 1,88. That means the Lenz takes (almost) twice the time to kill the same 10 heavy gunners. These are the true numbers. From YOUR video. Bramma has 88% more DPS. I guess that categorizes as "way overboard" but you'll surely say it's not.

(XBOX)ShonOfDawn · July 8, 2020

On 2020-07-07 at 2:35 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You can't even put a maxed out point strike on your lenz, and as far as I've read? You avoid answering why at every opportunity. Funny.

Just for completion's sake: I've already answered this. The why, is simply because I recorded those 2 videos right after the 6 mod test, in which I used r4 point strikes for both. But still, I remade both videos with a R5 point strike on the Lenz. I don't know why you honestly keep bringing it up, for no reasons. I stated that the change wouldn't be impactful, and the videos show they weren't, in fact, impactful by any stretch of the imagination, as Bramma still completes those tasks twice as fast as the Lenz, on average.

Your last post is just you regurgitating the same things you've said since the beginning. I'm tired of responding to stuff I've already responded to. It's everything in the post I made July 1st. You didn't address even half of it, just kept hammering the non-issue of the R4 point strike and dismissing all the actual evidence, especially THE FRAMECHECKS THAT SHOW HOW THE BRAMMA HAS 88% MORE DPS, FROM YOUR OWN VIDEO, THE ONE IN WHICH YOU SAID BRAMMA KILLS IN 10 SECONDS, INSTEAD OF THE ACTUAL 6,901 SECONDS IT TOOK.

I hope this is enough emphasis for you to address it.

(PSN)UltraKardas · July 8, 2020

4 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Just for completion's sake: I've already answered this. The why, is simply because I recorded those 2 videos right after the 6 mod test, in which I used r4 point strikes for both. But still, I remade both videos with a R5 point strike on the Lenz. I don't know why you honestly keep bringing it up.

Because #1 you aren't reliable. #2 you never give a valid reason for why you had the rank 4 on.

A valid reason looks like this. "I didn't put a rank 5 on the lenz, because I didn't think it mattered" The issue is that it does matter. To anyone who looks at you, you have very little credibility when you try diminish one of the only strengths the Lenz has over the Bramma then blatantly exaggerate dps numbers. Here I am assuming your reason.

Anyone with eyes can see your blatant bias. And I'm the only one in this thread who's honest enough to do many fair comparisons in a way that gives clean fair results. (Comparing single target vs single target, or using weapons at maximum efficiency instead of brain dead spamming.)

4 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

I stated that the change wouldn't be impactful,

And you would be wrong. r4 vs r5 on the Lenz is the difference in 25% crit chance. That's the difference between a x2 multiplier, and x4.

4 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Your last post is just you regurgitating the same things you've said since the beginning.

So exactly like you are then? You haven't said anything new at all. More importantly, your responses have been shrinking and getting worse and worse as the posts go on.

How odd that you find less and less to counter my points.

I'll let you in on a little secret btw. Let's take my Aoe video as an example. level 140 CHG's. Bramma killed in one less shot.

Corrupted enemies are the strongest faction available to fight at the moment. Corrupted enemies aren't fought as much as other enemies.

Grinner troops at level 140 have half the health, while Elite Lancers don't have 1/10th the health of CHG's. For any other faction, the difference between the Lenz and the Bramma is minimal. They perform identically at a full build against other enemies till around level 170+

So I'll repeat it to you again, for the last time. The bramma isn't and was never overpowered. The Lenz is a good weapon. It's not even close to being the best. But its an old weapon at this point. Many many many weapons can beat the MR 7 Lenz. The Bramma was the first bow to be introduced in a while, and its damage needed to be as good as it is to compete with other weapons.

It can't strip armor, or flood status effects like other weapons. It doesn't have sustained dps, or large ammo pools. EVEN IF THE BRAMMA WAS UN-NERFED people would struggle to use it on hard mode enemies, with double the health and 3x the armor. Almost like it struggles with its ammo pool.

Sorry dude. But you never came up with a logical explanation why my AOE comparison was unfair, nor did you ever come up with a smart reason that the Lenz having to fire one extra shot made the Bramma "Overpowered".

If the Bramma and the Lenz needed to fire the same amount of shots to kill an enemy, the Bramma would be balanced, and it would be WEAK. Firing 1 less shot then the Lenz to kill enemies is reasonable.

You have lost the argument. Your opinion is never going to sway me. Your argument and your comparative videos don't even do a good job at accuracy. You can't even get dps numbers correct.

You will never change my mind, I will never change your mind. Move on.

(XBOX)ShonOfDawn · July 10, 2020

On 2020-07-09 at 12:55 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

More importantly, your responses have been shrinking and getting worse and worse as the posts go on.

My responses are shrinking because I do not want to flood this forum with stuff that has already been said. And you wouldn't read it anyway, on the 1st of July I've made the equivalent of an essay restating all my points and countering all of yours, and you responded just to the first 5 lines, so why bother with someone who can't read. And yet, for the 6th time, you haven't responded to my frame checks. The ones that take YOUR video, "Bramma vs Lenz AoE" calculates accurate kill times, and show that the Bramma, even in unfavorable conditions, has a whopping 88% more dps.

Spoiler

If we actually want a fair comparison, we need a fair way to determine kill times. Here's how we can do it: by frame checking. That means looking at the footage frame by frame to calculate times, with a 33ms precision. I've done that, but you ignored it. Nothing new here. Here's how I did it, so you can easily check for yourself that I'm not lying, not that I have any reason to. The first frame I took for both weapons was the instant in which red appears on the charging circle, meaning the charge has initiated. The last frame I took was when the last damage number appeared: both weapons have heavy FX, so it's hard to visibly confirm the death of enemies. However, damage numbers give the exact instant the damage is dealt, and the last damage number shows the instant the enemy received fatal damage. You can easily go through a YouTube video frame by frame by stopping it and pressing . and , to go, respectively, backwards and forwards one single frame. This are the findings that I posted ages ago on your SUPPOSEDLY PERFECT AND FAIR video.

The footage is 30fps when in 720p, so every frame is 33ms You start charging the Lenz at the tenth frame of second 20, so 20,330s. The last enemy dies at the 10th frame of second 33, so the time is 33,330. 13 seconds TTK. The Bramma starts charging at frame 23 of minute 1:14, so the timing is 1:14,759.The last arrow clearly lands at frame 20 of minute 1:21. Just watch when the damage numbers appear. So, 1:21,660. TTK of 6,901 seconds. 13s vs 6,901s. The ratio is 1,88. That means the Lenz takes (almost) twice the time to kill the same 10 heavy gunners. These are the true numbers. From YOUR video. Bramma has 88% more DPS. I guess that categorizes as "way overboard" but you'll surely say it's not.

On 2020-07-09 at 12:55 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

But you never came up with a logical explanation why my AOE comparison was unfair

Again, for the 3rd time: it removes AoE radius as a means of comparison. And AoE radius directly weighs on effectiveness, as shown by my comparisons. Also, for the 3rd time: I do not have to prove anything, because that video agrees with my thesis. It shows the Bramma has 88% more DPS.

On 2020-07-09 at 12:55 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

A valid reason looks like this. "I didn't put a rank 5 on the lenz, because I didn't think it mattered" The issue is that it does matter.

Nope.

The Lenz, even with a r5 point strike, still takes from a minimum of 32 seconds, to a maximum of 40. Compare this to a post nerf Bramma, that requires 12. Also compare this to the R4 test, and pre-nerf Bramma:

The Lenz still takes around 40 seconds, even with the rank 4 point strike. As I said, in this test environment, the difference is so minimal that it doesn't matter, because of the Bramma's overwhelming advantage in power. In fact, the Bramma in the same test, pre-nerf, with a rank 4 point strike, just takes around 10s. Next proof:

Post nerf bramma vs Lenz with R5 point strike, to correct for the previous video in which both had R4 (EDIT: after looking back at it, they had r5 even in the older one. Well, just more testing that shows a 2x discrepancy between Bramma and Lenz, which was my thesis all along). Bramma took around 15 seconds and around 10s. Lenz took around 30s and around 22s. Pre nerf Bramma took 10 seconds. Now you SEE why it didn't matter?

Also, you never responded to this, either:

Bramma 8s and a bit less than 7s TTK. Lenz a bit less than 30s TTK for the first test, 34 s for the second, but because of Larva recasting and me getting hit by the knock back, I'll reduce it by 7s, which is more than the time lost, so 27s, and 25s for the third. But no, Bramma isn't overpowered compared to the Lenz, not at all. In hard mode, with enemies having higher EHP, you would have seen just Brammas.

Also, I just noticed that there's just a SINGLE video in which I make the mistake of using R4 instead of R5. I thought it was a more widespread issue considered how much you brought it up. It's amazing how you'd just cling to that and totally ignore the three other videos I posted, plus the analysis of YOUR video in a pathetic attempt to discredit my position. You still have to counter how my videos don't prove how Bramma has twice (if not more) the dps, all you've done until now is screech "R4 point strike!11!!1!".

I'm tired of responding to you, because you blatantly ignore crucial points of argumentation. You have done it six times in a row. Anyone who read the conversation would agree that you are arguing in bad faith.

Luciole77 · July 10, 2020

On 2020-03-01 at 7:32 PM, SpringRocker said:

Now that the only downside of the weapon has been removed and is the weapon that deal the most damage to single target and multiple in an area, It needs to be nerfed.

Really, it deals more damage than anything else in the game... With self-damage gone (why?) it's the go to weapon for both single damage and AOE.

Before someone says "self damage wasn't really removed, you rag-doll yourself" it only encourages point blank spam. It you can shot a bomb at point blank and press a button to recover, it basically ignores any draw back the weapon had to begin with (not to mention that if the stagger is considered a "stagger" or "status" you can basically negate that via frames/mods).

cry more!

SpringRocker · July 10, 2020

7 hours ago, Luciole77 said:

cry more!

You had 4 months to come up with a clever quip, and you chose this? This is what you've come up with?

Even if I was crying before, I'm laughing right now 😄 .

SpringRocker · July 11, 2020

3 hours ago, IIAc3sII said:

Seems like I have to point out again that your nothing but a troll since you dont even use the weapon you claim to know everything about, yet for over 4 months already you feel the need to keep whining about the bramma even though it already got nerfed, and on top of that you attack people with real opinions who actually do use the weapon.

Only reason why your post is not dead is because for some unknown reason the moderators kept merging all other post-patch bramma topics into yours, even though your pre-patch bramma "nerf whining" topic has nothing to do with current bramma at all anymore.

I wish I could laugh like you, but I cant since this whole thing is just a sad joke at this point.

Going to come up with anything new?

Going to actually attack an argument rather than the person at some point?

Yeah, I tested it out for a bit. It this really the best you can come up with?

Or maybe you still can't construct an argument that can stand on it's own when someone else says it's overpowered?

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