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Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion


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1 hour ago, SpringRocker said:

it still outclasses all other non-melee weapons.

Cant outclass anything if u cant shoot the damn weapon, its a low level mob thrashing weapon now, you cant use it for anything else, the moment enemies become high level the bramma is useless since u wont have any ammo to shoot.

So if you mean "outclass" against low levels, then I guess your right, but then again you also completely ignore what the issue is.

Edited by IIAc3sII
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27 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

Cant outclass anything if u cant shoot the damn weapon, its a low level mob thrashing weapon now, you cant use it for anything else, the moment enemies become high level the bramma is useless since u wont have any ammo to shoot.

You know you can pick up ammo, right?

You were going off trying to say that it's fine because it doesn't one-shot level 280+ enemies, therefore it's fine. The thing is that your whole argument that i mentioned stated that it was against others that said it did, no one ever said that. Regardless, it performs better.

 

You've already tried arguing this, back on page 26. You still have to make a point. The Lenz is the closest comparable weapon to ammo concerns, it still has no issue even at that level (though it still doesn't oneshot, it still performs) and yet the Bramma still blows it out of the water (think Damage to ammo efficiency).

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2 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

You know you can pick up ammo, right?

SpringRocker, I now understand why your comments make no sense, you have no clue what your talking about and it seems all you care about is spreading misinformation to discredit honest opinions of others about the current state of bramma, you clearly dont even use bramma at all, why are you even on this topic for the last 2 months if you dont use the weapon:

JWLkdh4.png

You have 450 kills total with bramma, thats like one or two missions, that is the extent of your "experience" with this weapon, stop arguing about what you believe how it works in theory, go put it in practice already and stop with your misinformation.

My opinion is that the weapon is crap now because you cant use it for anything else except low level enemies that you can one shot, the moment you cannot one shot and have to spend multiple ammo you cannot get enough ammo back to keep using the weapon.

I have formed this opinion through actually using bramma on all kinds of missions, all kinds of levels, Ive got 63.000 kills with it, unlike your 450.

I have no idea why people like you who dont even use the bramma come on the forum to say stuff that simply isnt true, this topic is about bramma, not lenz, not anything else, and certainly not about speculations, comparisons or theories, yet that is all you keep throwing in your comments over and over again instead of actually using the bramma so you can see for yourself how useless it is on higher levels because you wont have any ammo regardless of much much ammo u try to pick up, even with ammo conversion mods, because you will spend more ammo than you can possibly get back at these levels.

But why bother explaining all this, you clearly don't care, you dont use the bramma.

And the sad thing is that this forum seems full of this vocal minority that has no clue, that doesnt even use the things they complain about, and then DE listens to these kinds of posts, and as a result we see fun things nerfed to uselessness instead of actually balancing properly.

You said this a while ago:

Quote

the amount of people not understanding mechanics for something in GAME DESIGN needs a nerf

Yes, I can clearly see how someone with 450 kills understand all the mechanics so well indeed, this quote from you applies more to you than you even realize.

Edited by IIAc3sII
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1 hour ago, IIAc3sII said:

SpringRocker, I now understand why your comments make no sense, you have no clue what your talking about and it seems all you care about is spreading misinformation and attacking people for honest opinions about the current state of bramma, you dont even use bramma at all, why are you even on this topic for the last 2 months if you dont use the weapon:

JWLkdh4.png

You have 450 kills total with bramma, thats like one or two missions, that is the extent of your "experience" with this weapon, stop arguing about what you believe how it works in theory, go put it in practice already and stop with your misinformation.

My opinion is that the weapon is crap now because you cant use it for anything else except low level enemies that you can one shot, the moment you cannot one shot and have to spend multiple ammo you cannot get enough ammo back to keep using the weapon.

I have formed this opinion through actually using bramma on all kinds of missions, all kinds of levels, Ive got 63.000 kills with it, unlike your 450.

I have no idea why people like you who dont even use the bramma come on the forum to say stuff that simply isnt true, this topic is about bramma, not lenz, not anything else, and certainly not about speculations, comparisons or theories, yet that is all you keep throwing in your comments over and over again instead of actually using the bramma so you can see for yourself how useless it is on higher levels because YOU WON'T HAVE ANY AMMO regardless of much much ammo u try to pick up, even with ammo conversion mods, because YOU WILL SPEND MORE AMMO THAN YOU CAN POSSIBLY GET BACK at these levels.

But why bother explaining all this, you clearly don't care, you dont use the bramma, yet here you are acting like you know everything.

And the sad thing is that this forum is full of people like you, this vocal minority that has no clue, that doesnt even use the things they complain about, and then DE listens to these kinds of post of yours, and as a result we see some of the most fun weapons nerfed to uselessness.

You said this a while ago:

Yes, I can clearly see how someone with 450 kills understand all the mechanics so well indeed, this quote from you applies more to you than you even realize.

Guy, you've been arguing all this time about how it only gets 1 ammo per stack, the Lenz only gets one ammo per stack.

This all ties into what you've been arguing about on page 26.

All it proves is that I used it, and I used it for one mission. This was in reaction to when you were saying that the Lenz was infinitely better than the Bramma for enemies higher than level 280 (and that, for some reason, the Bramma was useless due to max 5 ammo). I got up to that level in an arb (solo Ivara defense), used it and only it, it performed much better than the Lenz, and so I left.

 

As for usage. Yes I used it. I still know don't know what it has to do with your argument:

5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said:

But of course you have people here claiming they could kill level 280+ enemies with it instantly, even though its clear they havn't even tried it, its sad how this forum is filled with so much disinformation and its even sadder that DE listens to a select few people and then nerf stuff into the ground instead of balancing it properly.

Here's the thing, no one EVER said that it oneshots level 280+ enemies, you're trying to make an argument against it when it doesn't even exist.

 

Here's another thing, you're trying to twist other people's arguments into something they're not. You're also trying to make personal attacks when you don't have anything left. You keep insisting the same thing over several pages to the point of where people, other than me, tell you to shutup.

You're not offering any new point nor are the points you made valid.

The quote" "the amount of people not understanding mechanics for something in GAME DESIGN needs a nerf" was a reference to you calling other people stupid... However you spent a page of posts trying to tell me the Lenz was a better weapon because the Bramma only gets back 1 ammo at a time with ammo mutation. That was the point, The Bramma with Ammo Mutation only gets 1 ammo back, just like the Lenz, and yet you were insisting that the Lenz was a better weapon because of that.

You spent time to put in a signature to tell other people they were stupid but didn't know the ammo mutation mechanics of the weapons that served the whole basis of your argument.

Edited by SpringRocker
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I'm sorry but I can't keep trying to discuss this with someone that doesnt even use the bramma at all and clearly doesn't care, you keep saying that the weapon is fine and all you have to do is equip certain mods to get ammo and then just pick up that ammo, but you got no clue what your talking about, you continuously ignore the issue with bramma in its current state and just keep talking around the issue with misinformation instead of actually staying on topic and recognizing the issue.

The issue is bramma with its low ammo count and 1 arrow pickup cannot be used when enemies become higher level, it simple cannot, you spend more ammo than you get back.

Now have a shred of common decency and acknowledge this issue instead of pretending it doesnt even exist.

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19 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

you ignore the issue with the weapon in its current state and just keep talking around the issue with misinformation instead of actually staying on topic and recognizing the issue.

The issue is that it out performs all other non-melee weapons. End of story.

 

19 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

The issue is bramma with its low ammo count and 1 arrow pickup cannot be used when enemies become higher level, it simple cannot, you spend more ammo than you get back.

the amount of people not understanding mechanics for something in GAME DESIGN needs a nerf

The Lenz performed just fine, it too only gets only 1 ammo per pickup. When I used the Bramma it performed better. There's even a different guy on this thread that showed it does just fine against level 10,000 enemies.

Someone took the time to show It performs fine against level 10,000 enemies. That should say something.

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8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Which is just a convenient way to say you ran out of arguments, because that doesn't matter in the slightest.

Except your argument is deeply flawed. You are judging the Lenz and the Bramma on time to kill multiple enemies, instead of shots required to kill said enemies.

This a flawed comparison for a few reasons. 

#1
The Bramma takes 1/3rd of the time to charge up and fire, and has its explosions instantly, then clusters bombs after. The Lenz has 2 second delay before its damage comes out. 
This puts the Lenz 3 seconds behind the Bramma per enemy. (1 more second of charge time + 2 second delay on radial blast.) 

#2
The Bramma used has a larger ammo pool (For the time being. Not so on PC) Thus the bramma doesn't run out of Ammo after 6 shots, and can keep doing additional damage.

#3 The videos used don't use an effective way to deal with all the enemies except fire about. Despite this, both weapons take nearly 20 shots to down all the enemies. 

Likewise, you aren't even comparing the weapons fairly by using the same mod loadout. 
 

So this is neither a logical argument to make, nor does it succeed in being a good comparison between the two. You push this argument (despite its logical shortcomings) because you don't want an honest comparison between the two. 

8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Bramma has almost twice the fire rate of Lenz, so, since shots fired are almost identical, it also has almost twice the DPS. 

This is what's called a "Logical Fallacy." 

The Rubico Prime has a fire rate 3x that of the Kuva Bramma. Does the Rubico Prime has almost three times the dps? Nope. Its a bit more complicated then just fire rate. If that was the care, the twin vipers would beat everything with their fire rate. 
 

I made one last video comparison between the Lenz, and the Bramma as promised. From the first shot my Lenz at 21 seconds, till the last enemy dies at 34 seconds, It took 6 shots of my Lenz to kill every enemy. 

My Bramma takes its first shot at the 1:14 mark. It kills everything in 9-10 seconds, which puts us at the 1:24 mark. Lenz took 13 seconds, with a charge rate of 1.5 and a two second blast delay compared to the 10 seconds, of the Kuva Bramma. 

Shot per shot in this comparison, Bramma used one less shot. The enemies shown were level 120 corrupted heavy gunners. That means that in total, both weapons had to do  41,098,973.2 damage total to kill all 20 enemies.

Fairly certain the Bramma pulled this off in 5 shots, and the Lenz handled it in 6. 

This puts the Lenz at around 6,849,828 damage per shot

This puts the Bramma at around 8,219,794 damage per shot

Seeing as the performance of these two bows is the difference between 5 shots and 6, 10 seconds and 13 seconds, the weapons are fairly comparable. Shot per shot damage wise, that's a 20% difference
 

8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Bramma has almost twice the fire rate of Lenz, so, since shots fired are almost identical, it also has almost twice the DPS. 

. Twice the Dps would look like 13+ million damage per shot, or 3 shots required to kill to everything, or the Bramma would have killed every enemy in my video around 6 seconds at the 1:20 minute mark. The final shot of the Bramma that kills everything doesn't go off till 1:22

At best you could say that the Bramma killed 3-4 seconds faster, and fired one shot less then the Lenz. Regardless, this puts the performance of both of these weapons comfortably close together. Neither drastically outperform or under-perform the other. It was the difference of a single shot. 

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

The Bramma is also far, far easier to use, considering that hitting the enemies isn't mandatory, you can just hit the floor, as I showed. I

Both weapons are fully capable of that same feat. The real difference between the two weapons is the charge time, and the delay between the explosions. The Lenz doesn't require to hit enemies either. It's radius is more then sufficient to hit enemies. 

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

I was generous and honest,

And incorrect. Generous would imply that you give the Lenz benefits that you don't give the Bramma. Instead you gave the Bramma a handicap by letting the Bramma get a full point strike, while the Lenz doesn't. 

Honest comparison involves testing both weapons fairly. An example of fair weapon comparison would be the video I posted above. Both weapons have the same exact mods to a "T". Both of them are tested in an AoE scenario. Both weapons are used efficiently, and the performances are accurate. 

When you watch the Lenz portion of the video, it gets only a dozen more orange crits, and quite a few more red crits. Something that the videos you sent weren't honest enough to do

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

It was to simulate active gameplay. So, enemies shooting at you and you having to pick up ammo. As you can clearly see, Lenz runs out pretty fast, and often.

Almost like there's a reason it comes pre-built with ammo mutation. Odd. I didn't have that problem in my video. Almost like I grouped up the enemies on purpose, and had extra ammo available to see the shot by shot difference. 

Don't worry though. DE remedies that tidbit by making the Bramma have even less ammo then the Lenz, with no innate ammo mutation. You know, despite that the Bramma only really kills a few seconds faster then the Lenz, or performs nearly identically. 

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

It was to simulate active gameplay.

Active Gameplay includes having an assortment of weaker enemies. Said weaker enemies have notably less health, and drop ammo for both the Lenz, and the Bramma. This "Simulation" excuse of yours is highly flawed. 

I could take my Bramma and go fight a level 250 juggernaut behemoth. Claiming that encounter is any evidence is just as wrong. Simulcrum is where you can test a weapon's potential, and either by dishonesty, mistake, or lack of thought, you failed to properly do so. 
 

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Which is exactly why Bramma is so much better. The bomblets hit enemies around and the target, and prime them with viral and slash procs.

The bomblets function to extend the range of the Bramma. In the video I linked above, nearly every bomblet missed the target. I literally watch them detonate around my Nidus. They are a nice little benefit of damage, but they don't add anything significant to this weapon unless you are playing low level content. (Which at that point, you are better off using an Acceltra.) 

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

A single Viral proc doubles your DPS

Not quite how that works. Viral reduces enemy health. If it takes 2 shots to kill an enemy normally, but viral proc means you can kill it in one, then yes it doubles your dps. However, the video here I showed you has the Bramma fail to get close 2x the Lenz's dps. It would take 13.6 million dps to double the Lenz's output. The Bramma was at 8.2 out of the 13.6 it needed. Or about 60% of the way to double the Lenz's dps. 

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

 Show me your calculations and the reasoning behind them, then I'll believe you

It takes one shot, assuming Hunter Munitions procs, which is a 30% chance per projectile if crit is modded to 100%0 (and of course it is on Lenz), with a 90% chance of a second projectile assuming Split Chamber and no other multishot.  This equates to (0.3 proc rate + (0.3 proc rate*0.7 chance of failed initial proc*0.9 chance of multishot) = 0.489 = ~50% chance

9 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

20s clear time vs 10s clear time. You have absolutely nothing to cling on here. 

Except that the humble Mastery rank 7 Lenz has a 13 second clear time, compared to the Bramma's 10 seconds. 

Comparing weapons such as the Tigris and the Tigris Prime which have a raw damage difference of nearly 50%, and a Mastery Rank difference or 6 (Mr 7 vs Mr 13) 
This puts the Bramma right around where it should be for a Mastery Rank 15 weapon. 

Pretty sure you have no logic to cling to, so you cling on to your belief that the Bramma is OP. Enjoy watching the Video. It's completely honest and invalidates almost everything you say.

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7 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

The Lenz performed just fine. When I used the Bramma it performed better. There's even a different guy on this thread that showed it does just fine against level 10,000 enemies.

Except those were infested enemies. Those infested enemies have less effective health then level 140 corrupted heavy gunners. 

Sorry to burst your bubble. Any weapon that can kill level 140 corrupted heavy gunners, in a reasonable way could have done that same feat. 

A level 9,999 ancient healer has some like 430k health. Turn it into a parasitic eximus and you multiply that by 3. A level 120 corrupted heavy gunner has 2 million health. 

Don't believe me? 
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Ancient_Healer
Where it says level scaling, enter 9,999
Then do the same for this one. Enter level 120. 
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Heavy_Gunner

If you, yourself have ever killed a corrupted enemy at that level or higher, Congrats. You have the damage output needed to kill a level 9,999 infested enemy. 

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Alright Spring, keep talking about anything else as long as its not bramma.

I find it very strange that someone who doesn't even use bramma comes on a topic specifically for discussing bramma and then does nothing but try to discredit people who actually do use the bramma.

It seems the sole purpose of you being here is derailing the topic, cause every time someone touches on the issues with post-patch bramma you do nothing but talk around it with things that have nothing to do with it.

37 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

When I used the Bramma

Dont kid yourself, its obvious to anyone you clearly dont use it, 450 kills to level it up and that was the end of your story with this weapon, yet here you are...

 

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40 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

It seems the sole purpose of you being here is derailing the topic, cause every time someone touches on the issues with post-patch bramma you do nothing but talk around it with things that have nothing to do with it.

So far the only thing you've brought up was the max ammo nerf being too hard. That and how the Bramma is the only weapon that only gets 1 ammo back per stack.

Neither is true. It also doesn't take running out and getting over thousands of kills to figure it out. That's why I took your sig (the one that you made to call other people stupid) and made it my own:

the amount of people not understanding mechanics for something in GAME DESIGN needs a nerf

 

40 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

Dont kid yourself, its obvious to anyone you clearly dont use it, 450 kills to level it up and that was the end of your story with this weapon.

That says more about an MR25 with cat (50 points) using it than anything else.

Not only that, but someone actually took their time to do a video and show how the Bramma does just fine against level 10,000 enemies (earlier in this thread; page 27). That's not level 280, level 500, nor level 1,000. They took the time to showcase against level 10,000.

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1 hour ago, SpringRocker said:

Not only that, but someone actually took their time to do a video and show how the Bramma does just fine against level 10,000 enemies

How dumb can it get, dude that is pre-patch bramma with 15 ammo and several arrows pickup per ammo pack, you just keep throwing disinformation around, that video doesnt even apply to the game anymore because that is not possible anymore to do, if that person who made this video would try this right now, he would run out of ammo instantly.

And yes I only made 2 points:

-bramma ammo of 5 is way too low.

-bramma ammo pickup of 1 arrow makes the weapon impossible to use on higher levels since u cannot get enough ammo back.

You are 100% correct that these are the only things I brought up, because unlike you, I dont jump around like a grasshopper from one unrelated subject to the other to derail the conversation with misinformation that has nothing to do with the current post-patch bramma, nor do I try to misuse the gameplay of one person doing an insanely long Ivara run to somehow justify that the weapon this person used is OP when this weapon already got nerfed, but what else can one expect from someone like you that doesnt even use the bramma.

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1 minute ago, IIAc3sII said:

You are 100% correct that these are the only things I brought up, because unlike you, I dont jump around like a grasshopper from one unrelated subject to the other to derail the conversation with misinformation that has nothing to do with the bramma, but what else can one expect from someone like you that doesnt even use the bramma, why are you even here?

All you've done is derail.

  • The Bramma have a max of 5 doesn't make it unusable.
  • The Bramma only getting 1 ammo per stack is fine, the Lenz has been doing it since forever and deals a lot less damage.

The Bramma is an overpowered weapon. It trivializes every other non-melee weapon. Unless you want to say something new, there's nothing else for you to say that you haven't already said since you started in on this thread that several people haven't already addressed.

However sure, keep shouting that I don't regularly use the Bramma. That's how critical thinking and defending points works, right? Oh, almost forgot your sig:

the amount of people not understanding mechanics for something in GAME DESIGN needs a nerf

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20 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

The Bramma have a max of 5 doesn't make it unusable.

It does on higher levels because of the combined effect of low ammo + 1 arrow pickups.

20 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

The Bramma only getting 1 ammo per stack is fine

It isnt for higher levels because of the combined effect of low ammo + 1 arrow pickups.

20 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

the Lenz

Bramma is not Lenz, go make your own topic about Lenz already, these two weapons have different characteristics.

20 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

The Bramma is an overpowered weapon. It trivializes every other non-melee weapon

Go use bramma then, I suggest you give it a try, its hard to shoot it when you dont have the ammo for it, maybe you'll finally find out for yourself.

But I almost forgot, you dont use bramma, you just whine about how OP it is, even though bramma just got nerfed, and even though you just said that melee is even stronger, I can only imagine how you must feel about mesa/saryn in your public games, ouch.

20 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

I don't regularly use the Bramma. That's how critical thinking

Correct, before you make attempts to discredit the opinion of others, make sure you actually have experience with the weapon your talking about, which you dont, you even use outdated information to justify your claims, like that video that doesnt even apply anymore since the bramma nerfs, critical thinking indeed.

Edited by IIAc3sII
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4 hours ago, IIAc3sII said:

I now understand why your comments make no sense, you have no clue what your talking about

And in your case, Bramme is one of the 3 primaries you use. If your weapon pool is this limited, of course you will spit salt. Why don't you expand your horizon?

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45 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

And in your case, Bramme is one of the 3 primaries you use

Yes I do use bramma so I have an understanding on how it performs in certain conditions which is what this topic is about.

If I dont use a weapon and I have zero experience with it then I'm not going to comment about it, much less argue and continuously discredit people who do actually use it (<-why I might be salty towards a specific person).

I also accept your offer to expand my horizon, so please send me forma's, they can be gifted to players through market 🙂

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15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You are judging the Lenz and the Bramma on time to kill multiple enemies

*Big, enormous facepalm* In a game in which kills per minute are the definitive measure of power, what the HELL should we test exactly, if not the amount of time required to kill enemies? Survival, Extermination, Eso and Defense just to name a few, have KPM as the most important factor to bring in any build. If you tested a Kohm against a Rubico, would you count the number of bullets used?

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

This a flawed comparison for a few reasons. 

#1
The Bramma takes 1/3rd of the time to charge up and fire, and has its explosions instantly, then clusters bombs after. The Lenz has 2 second delay before its damage comes out. 
This puts the Lenz 3 seconds behind the Bramma per enemy. (1 more second of charge time + 2 second delay on radial blast.) 

So tell me, I should compensate for these mechanics when testing guns? Mechanics that clearly put the Bramma on top, because of more damage per arrow, faster RoF, better status potential and no delayed explosion? How is it flawed? I'm using the guns as they would be used in a normal mission, this just show how the Bramma is mechanically superior on top of having better damage overall. You are basically telling me to avoid considering all of the lenz's flaws for the sake of a "fair" comparison... If a weapon is clunkier to use, it's just another point against it in the comparison. The last sentence is the final nail in the coffin. The delay is exactly the reason why in one-shot territory for both weapons, meaning starchart and first two sorties, the Lenz will inevitably always be late. And, enemies can get out of the explosion radius during that delay. It's simply mechanically inferior.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#2
The Bramma used has a larger ammo pool (For the time being. Not so on PC) Thus the bramma doesn't run out of Ammo after 6 shots, and can keep doing additional damage.

What does that tell you, other than the fact that once again, Bramma is superior in the ammo economy department? I was testing the gun for its effectiveness, if it can't kill anything with 6 shots to pick up ammo, that's the gun's fault. 

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#3 The videos used don't use an effective way to deal with all the enemies except fire about. Despite this, both weapons take nearly 20 shots to down all the enemies. 

Oh yeah, because testing with unmoving and/or bunched enemies is incredibly realistic, and is definitely what happens in missions with most frames. So with your logic, if I had a gun with incredibly slow projectile speed, and thus unusable against moving, acting enemies, but it had higher DPS than all other weapons, it would be superior. Even though it's unusable in normal missions. Makes sense. 

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

This is what's called a "Logical Fallacy." 

The Rubico Prime has a fire rate 3x that of the Kuva Bramma. Does the Rubico Prime has almost three times the dps? Nope. Its a bit more complicated then just fire rate. If that was the care, the twin vipers would beat everything with their fire rate. 

You don't even know what a logical fallacy is, don't pretend like you do. You yourself are guilty of numerous fallacies of equivocation just in this post, you switch the focus of the argument from pre-nerf Bramma to post-nerf Bramma. You also committed various straw man fallacies by misrepresenting my words and somehow claiming that because a Lenz can kill lvl 170 enemies, it is therefore superior to the Bramma because I was "impressed with it killing lvl120s", countering an argumentation I did not make. Let's not forget the various ad hominem attacks. Here, in this same quote, you somehow imply that I think a weapon with double the fire rate has double the DPS, with no other factor involved. Another straw man fallacy, because that's not at all what I said, with some ignorance of your own sprinkled on top. I said:

Quote

Bramma has almost twice the fire rate of Lenz, so, since shots fired are almost identical, it also has almost twice the DPS.

Emphasis mine. Both weapons were tested against 10 corrupted heavy gunners, which have, let's say, a combined X EHP. So, both weapons, took down X EHP with around 20 shots. Just for the sake of argument, let's assume Bramma has precisely double the RoF of the Lenz, while in actuality it's more like 1.8x. Now, here comes the concept of DPS, which you totally butcher in your following statements. DPS means Damage Per Second. (EDIT: Oh wow you mean seriously damage per shot with dps? No one in their right mind who has ever played an MMO considers DPS as damage per shot. Do you know why? Because it's a useless stat for most weapons, effectiveness is calculated with damage per second, because you know, it tells you how fast you kill things. I don't really want to change the whole text, so enjoy a lesson on DPS, I honestly thought you ignored that concept). It is calculated either by dividing total damage dealt by the time it took to deal the damage, or by multiplying damage per shot times rate of fire (measured in shots per second). If 20 arrows deal X damage, the DPS for the Lenz will be (X/20)*(Lenz RoF). The DPS for the Bramma will be (X/20)*(Bramma RoF), which by substituting the previous assumption, is (X/20)*(Lenz RoF*2). So, twice the DPS with the previous assumptions. As I said the actual number is a little bit less than twice, more like 1.8x, but the point still stands. You don't know in the slightest what you are talking about, let's add this mistake to the whole list of stuff you were incorrect on (Hey it's starting to get pretty long, you were wrong about D2's weapon releases, power progression, Bramma's ammo economy in relation to rifles, probabilities and slash proc chance, now the concept of DPS which you FURTHER butcher in the part I'm going to get to).

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

From the first shot my Lenz at 21 seconds, till the last enemy dies at 34 seconds, It took 6 shots of my Lenz to kill every enemy. 

My Bramma takes its first shot at the 1:14 mark. It kills everything in 9-10 seconds, which puts us at the 1:24 mark. Lenz took 13 seconds, with a charge rate of 1.5 and a two second blast delay compared to the 10 seconds, of the Kuva Bramma. 

This timings are so convenient! You purposefully cut out Lenz's initial charge time, and purposefully delayed the actual moment in which all enemies die with the Bramma. Watch again, carefully. Let's do some framchecks, shall we? You can move single frames with "," and "." on a YouTube video. I assume the footage is 30fps when in 720p, so every frame is 33ms You start charging the Lenz at the tenth frame of second 20, so 20,330s. The last enemy dies at the 17th frame of second 33 from a slash proc, so the time is 33,561. 13,231 seconds TTK (I use comma to separate the integer part from the decimal part, sorry, I'm European). The Bramma starts charging at frame 23 of minute 1:14, so the timing is 1:14,759. The baffling part is the end point. The last arrow clearly lands at frame 20 of minute 1:21. Just watch when the damage numbers appear. So, 1:21,660. And you put 1:24 just to bloat the numbers in your favor. TTK of 6,901 seconds. 13,231 vs 6,901s. The ratio is 1,92. That means the Lenz takes (almost) twice the time to kill the same 10 heavy gunners. Oh would you look at that. It almost appears as if the Bramma has twice the DPS! (Same amount of EHP dealt, that of 10 Heavy gunners, half the time required).

That is consistent with my documented testings in my previous post, but there are three more things. Firstly, this test is incredibly in favor of the Lenz. A floating target of bunched up enemies makes most of the bomblets miss, along with those sweet, sweet viral procs (of which you don't know the functionality, as you show later), and totally discards the AoE potential of the weapons. Seriously, who tests AoE weapons with the equivalent of a single target? If you really don't like enemies moving, test it with 10 Heavy Gunners with paused AI, at least they'll be a bit spread out, and the setup can actually show differences in area coverage. Secondly, your Lenz build is terrible. I could avoid saying this and benefit myself, but I'm honest when I argue, unlike you. You seriously put viral on a weapon with 5% status chance? You'd be better off with corrosive or radiation. With corrosive, the Lenz might even beat Bramma in this totally one sided test. Well maybe not if you put corrosive on the Bramma as well, the upfront damage would probably one shot them in any case, especially because there are few viral procs anyway because in your non-impartial setup, bomblets likely miss. I honestly don't know, I haven't tested that yet, but it does not matter, and here's my final point: because of that viral status chance, Bramma scales way better against armor. Try redoing the same test with lvl 120 Gokstad Officers. Even with a Corrosive Lenz. The difference is abyssal.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

This puts the Lenz at around 6,849,828 damage per shot

This puts the Bramma at around 8,219,794 damage per shot

Seeing as the performance of these two bows is the difference between 5 shots and 6, 10 seconds and 13 seconds, the weapons are fairly comparable. Shot per shot damage wise, that's a 20% difference

. Twice the Dps would look like 13+ million damage per shot, or 3 shots required to kill to everything, or the Bramma would have killed every enemy in my video around 6 seconds at the 1:20 minute mark. The final shot of the Bramma that kills everything doesn't go off till 1:22

The part in bold is just so silly, it makes me sad. It further reinforce the fact that you don't know anything about what you are testing.  Let's reiterate. DPS is Damage Per Second. It is in function of time. Specifically, Total Damage Dealt/Time (which is equivalent to Damage Per Shot*Rate of Fire, but in this case we will use the former formula) You are confusing two completely different concepts. Let's calculate the DPS here. I'm assuming perfect rate of fire for both weapons, meaning charge time + reload time, which is unfeasible in normal gameplay, but treats both weapons fairly since it removes user error completely. Total Damage, for both guns, is 41 million for simplicity's sake. It took 5 shots for the Bramma, 6 for the Lenz (your data). Let's calculate the necessary time to fire those arrows (god why do I feel like a teacher).

Bramma:

5 arrows -> charge-reload-charge-reload-charge-reload-charge-reload-charge. Charge time: 0,4s Reload time: 0,6s Total time: (0,4s*5+0,6s*4)=4,4s

Dps: 41*10^6/4.4s=9,32 million DPS

Lenz:

6 arrows, same scheme as before. Charge time: 1,2s Reload time: 0,6s Total time: (1,2*6+0,6*5)=10,2s

Dps: 41*10^6/10,2s=4,02 million DPS

The numbers speak for themselves.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Generous would imply that you give the Lenz benefits that you don't give the Bramma.

Oh I did, I fired blindly with the Bramma, I took headshots for the Lenz. If you shot the Lenz blindly, meaning bodyshots or straight AoE damage, kill times become way longer for the Lenz.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Active Gameplay includes having an assortment of weaker enemies.

Which would have just been killed 2 seconds faster by the Bramma every single time, because it has no delay. Your test is the one that misrepresents weapons. You said it yourself that Bomblets increase the Bramma's AoE potential.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

The bomblets function to extend the range

And it really does, especially because enemies outside the Bramma's initial AoE can be primed with viral, making it more effective than the Lenz against crowds. Of course you took that away to try and forcefully bring the weapons closer together, which failed miserably considering how you faked the kill times and avoided showing DPS numbers.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

and either by dishonesty, mistake, or lack of thought, you failed to properly do so. 

Oh yes, testing weapons against moving enemies and taking ammo economy into consideration is so dishonest, definitely way more dishonest than faking your own numbers.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Viral reduces enemy health.

Aaaaand cue the ever-expanding list of blatantly wrong information you endlessly spit out. Since Warframe Revised, Viral procs increase damage dealt to health by 100%, with subsequent procs increasing that multiplier by 25% each time, capping out at 10 procs for a whopping 325% damage boost. So yes, not only does it double dps, it can more than quadruple it with enough procs, which, guess what, come from the bomblets, making Bramma way more effective in actual crowds of enemies, not balls of flesh.

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

It takes one shot, assuming Hunter Munitions procs,

To do what? Kill? not with 6 mods, my single target tests show it (found in previous post). With a full build it might, haven't checked yet. Still, it doesn't change the fact that you spitballed a random 100% chance for slash procs in your previous posts to deceitfully reinforce your, scientifically and mathematically inaccurate, argumentation. 

15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Pretty sure you have no logic to cling to, so you cling on to your belief that the Bramma is OP. Enjoy watching the Video. It's completely honest and invalidates almost everything you say.

After the ludicrous amount of forgery and plain ignorance you showed in your posts, this is simply the icing on the cake. Especially the fact that your proof is "completely honest". I'm done with you. For real. I wasted more than enough time on this squabble. The gun was nerfed into (hopefully) its correct place, so I guess I'm right even without the overwhelming empirical proof that supports my thesis. Do what you want, cling to whatever new excuses you'll certainly find, this time I don't feel like making predictions. Just remember that admitting to being wrong is just a sign of intellectual honesty. I, in the first place, would have done that if you didn't show untruthful evidence. 

Edited by (XB1)ShonFr0st
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3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

*Big, enormous facepalm*

Sorry to break it to you. There's more to dps then simple fire rate. Don't be too hard on yourself. People make mistakes.

3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

In a game in which kills per minute are the definitive measure of power, what the HELL should we test exactly,

Pretty simply? Damage per shot. Want to know why? I proved without a shadow of a doubt you can kill level 120 corrupted heavy gunners in 13 seconds with a lenz.

The most valuable part of that sentence? The specific enemy listed. Corrupted heavy gunners are the defacto gold standard when it comes to testing a weapon's capabilities.
This is because those corrupted heavy gunners have one of the fasted scaling enemies in terms of Effective health. If you can kill them quickly? You can almost with nigh certainty kill every other enemy in the game quickly. (Comes with the exception of Sentients as they are immune to status procs.)

Let's compare the other factions to a level 120 CHG. 2,054,948.66

First off. A regular heavy gunner. 880,692.28
Now a Corpus Tech. 91,058.35
Finally, an ancient healer. 47,234.16

See a difference? These are all level 120 enemies. The Lenz while a slower weapon, is fully capable of killing a level 120 CHG. Considering that the other enemies listed either have 2/5ths the health or less?


This is something I proved long ago when I took the lenz into a survival against level 170 enemies. Was that a 1 forma lenz? The regular corrupted units in that survival were killed instantly with the lenz. (Corrupted Lancer, and such.) With only the heavy units taking multiple shots.

3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

If you tested a Kohm against a Rubico, would you count the number of bullets used?

Not sure why I would test a critical based sniper rifle vs a raw damage, status based kohm. As always, I'd test them per shot. If a rubico kills it in less shots, but the kohm kills the same enemy using a lower ammo percentage then the Kohm would be the winner.

You test them per shot as status weapons, and crit weapons don't always kill instantly. Status procs can tick to kill something, while crit weapons can benefit from Hunter Munitions. So you find out the lowest number of shots required to kill, then compare.

3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

So tell me, I should compensate for these mechanics when testing guns? Mechanics that clearly put the Bramma on top, because of more damage per arrow, faster RoF, better status potential and no delayed explosion? How is it flawed?

I explained this to you already. Your videos with a 6 mod forma loadout for the Lenz/Bramma were flawed for the following.

#1 The mod loadouts used weren't the same. You unfairly give the Bramma the advantage of higher level mods.
#2 The damage difference between the Bramma and the Lenz isn't what mattered in your video.

Your video completely and utterly fails as a weapon damage comparison.

They key factor in your video, the difference between the Bramma and the Lenz came down to ammo capacity. Not rate of fire. Not Damage. Ammo Capacity. This is because you didn't group up the enemies, and spamming shots while bullet jumping is all you cared about. What you couldn't kill with the Lenz's 6 shots, you managed to kill with the Bramma's full ammo capacity before reloading from a sniper pickup.

In your videos, it's not even about the rate of fire. Ammo capacity almost is never an issue in warframe. In my 1 hour+ survival with a 1 forma Lenz, ammo wasn't an issue. Yet it was for you. This means that you made a problem that typically doesn't exist in warframe.

(Since bullet jumping and firing wildly is the main take away I got from your "Bow comparison" videos, I wonder if out there in the tenno universe, a Bramma user hurt your feelings from only that.)

The changes DE made to the bramma (and the ones people complain about) DE changed the ammo for it the most. Didn't change the damage. Any idea why? (Because its damage was never op. See full forma lenz/bramma video for details!)

3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

You are basically telling me to avoid considering all of the lenz's flaws for the sake of a "fair" comparison...

Yes. A fair comparison is an honest comparison. In this case, I'm telling you to be honest. Can you do that for me?

I showed you a video where the Lenz and Bramma both killed level 120 enemies. Lenz took 13 seconds. Bramma took 10. The difference was between 5 shots and 6.

Ya feelin' lucky punk? (Dirty Harry reference.)

How FAIR was my lenz vs bramma video? Was I efficient enough with both weapons? Did I give either weapon an advantage somehow? Was a single mod different in the video I missed? Did I accidentally Nidus stomp and kill any of the gunners with a virulence?

Was my video fair to both weapons? Yes. Was either weapon used unfairly to skew results? No.

3 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Oh yeah, because testing with unmoving and/or bunched enemies is incredibly realistic, and is definitely what happens in missions with most frames.

So your only real criticism is that my video was unrealistic? Lucky for me, the entire scenario in the simulcrum is unrealistic. In my entire time of playing warframe, there's never been a mission that only required me to kill 20 corrupted heavy gunners in a cage match to the death.

Your video of the Bramma and the Lenz is also likewise unrealistic for the same reason.

Unless my video comparion was unfair, or dishonest, you have lost the argument.
Btw, being able to group up enemies is a relatively common ability. Mag, Nidus, Booben, Loki (Iradiating Disarm tends to group enemies up.) (Singularity Nyx), Khora, Grendel, Hidroid, (By eating enemes, and spittin them out.) and technically even Octavia can group up enemies. You are aware, the in defense missions, enemies naturally group up around the defense pod. In survival missions, the player can stakeout in a one way corridor and have all the enemies group up in front of him. It's really not all that unrealistic.

Even Protea might be able to do that with her shrapnel winds. (Unconfirmed. Not out on consoles yet.)

The real question. Was my video comparison of the Lenz, and Bramma unfair? If so, how? "Unrealistic" isn't unfair if both the Bramma and the Lenz were both used in "Unrealistic" circumstances.

You either say yes, with a valid reason and we discuss this more. Or you admit that both weapons were used in a fair scenario, and you lack a valid criticsm on the matter.

If the latter is true, then the Bramma is a balanced weapon, however, you still don't like the weapon in your opinion. (If we are being honest, the biggest difference between the Lenz and the Bramma in normal missions is spammability. If the Lenz had 13 shots like the Bramma, any Gauss user could shoot the Lenz and spam an area like the Bramma does. There is no real dps increase between the Lenz and the Bramma in any mission from level 1 all the way to level 75+.
 

4 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

The part in bold is just so silly, it makes me sad. It further reinforce the fact that you don't know anything about what you are testing.

The rest of this comes off as you desperate to make any argument. The Lenz killed in 13 seconds, what the Bramma killed in 10. You aren't even debating that. Not only are you incorrect here, but you are being toxic to boot.

4 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

The numbers speak for themselves.

Except for the little fact that you are wrong xD.

At 9 million dps for the Bramma, it would take 5 seconds to kill all level 120 enemies. The video I showed you, the enemies are still alive at the 8-10 second mark.

9 million dps per second would also do 72 million damage at the 8 second mark. See a problem here? You claim the Bramma does 9 million damage per second. If that was true, the enemies would have been long dead.

8 seconds, x 9 million damage = 72 million damage. 5 seconds x 9 million damage = 45 million damage Enemy health = 40 million damage.

Quik Mafs, doesn't compute chief.

Here's the video for you again. Bramma test starts at 1:14. By your logic it should end at 1:18. Enemies are clearly still alive at the 1:21 mark.

Sorry the facts don't line up with you chief. Better check your mafs again. (I"ll give you a little hint. You can either do 40 million damage divided by seconds it took to kill them, or by shots fired. Neither of them get the Bramma to double the Lenz's dps. (This is because the Lenz doesn't take double the time. It kills in 6 shots, 13 seconds. It would have to kill in double the Bramma's shots or time. Sadly, the Bramma doesn't kill in half the time.)

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4 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

Lenz:

6 arrows, same scheme as before. Charge time: 1,2s Reload time: 0,6s Total time: (1,2*6+0,6*5)=10,2s

Dps: 41*10^6/10,2s=4,02 million DPS

Thought I'd just pitch in and let you know the Lenz number is also incorrect.

Lenz took 13 seconds to kill. At 4.02 million dps, the Lenz would have killed at the 10 second mark. When the difference between the two weapons was a single shot, or a time difference less then 8 seconds, there is no possible way for the Bramma to do double the Lenz's damage.

Here's the total health of all heavy gunners. 41,098,960 If you multiply your damage per second, by the number of seconds it took to kill them, you get this number.

The Bramma doesn't kill in the 4.4 seconds it takes to hit 9 million damage. Doesn't kill in 5 seconds. Doesn't kill in 6 seconds. Doesn't kill in 7 seconds. The enemies are still alive until the 1:22-1:24 mark.



 

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13 hours ago, (PS4)Pragmatic_2015 said:

Is using Firestorm on a Bramma a good way to sure it up ????

No, you already lose 2 mod slots since it was nerfed, Ammo Drum to get a little bit more ammo and Vigilante Supplies to get 1 arrow pickups, if you dont use these 2 mods the weapons is unplayable, even with these 2 mods you can only use the weapon until enemies get a bit higher level and then it also becomes unplayable since you wont get enough ammo back.

If your going to remove yet another mod from your build to use Firestorm, your just going to make the weapon even weaker in its damage, which means you'll have to spend more ammo on certain enemies, so that "higher level" threshold at which the weapon becomes useless will creep even closer to you then normal.

I highly suggest you don't use it, the Bramma already has enough radius and is good for low level mod thrashing, you rly dont need Firestorm to even make that better, the issue is you getting ammo on higher levels and Firestorm will only make this worse.

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My Bramma, 44% Toxic

From left to right:-

Amalgam Serration, Heavy Calibre, Split Chamber, Vigilante Armaments, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Primed Cryo Rounds, Firestorm with Exilus'd Vigilante Supplies.

It gets carried by my Inaros with a Nikana Prime and a Bronco Prime using Dizzying Rounds.

It's a simple case of blowing the living daylights out of things and anything else left standing gets a finisher to the face.

And no, I'm not going to stoop to getting a riven, (giant mistake for starters) plus I have bad luck with unveiling and rolls. 

The problem is that "Award weapons defeat MR lockout". That and low MR players spamming it to no end. Now low MR players don't need that level of power. The minimum MR for liches should be MR 13. Same as accessing Operator and everything else.

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Well after all this time I've come to accept that D.E just hates fun, goes against the concept of making a game but the evidence is in everything they mess up, nerf and change to be boring. D.E is the fun police and we all know we aren't supposed to be having fun in their game, no no no, this isn't the place for fun. Just grind, little to no respect for your time/investment, RNG and a riven system designed to get a lot of money out of unsuspecting people. Plus that Kuva slot machine, so much fun. Bramma = fun so kill it, Tombfinger primary is fun = kill it in minutes. Wonder what next fun bit get's the nerf axe, I'm sure D.E can top this.

Also, why the hell did my post get absorbed into this biased one?! The OP of this clearly loves nerfs and doesn't use the Bramma, seems disingenuous to push my pro-Bramma post into this baseless drivel of misinformation.

Edited by StormWolf1337
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3 hours ago, StormWolf1337 said:

Also, why the hell did my post get absorbed into this biased one?! The OP of this clearly loves nerfs and doesn't use the Bramma, seems disingenuous to push my pro-Bramma post into this baseless drivel of misinformation.

You mean the pages of debate? Or how about the pages of testing? How about the pages where people were talking about mechanics behind mod classes and why that matters? Or how about the one point where I was proven wrong and accepted it?

Read any of it? No? Sure... And you call me the bias one 🙄 .

If you want braindead gameplay go play "Cookie Clicker" or "Candy Crush", this game is already basically ruined by people crying about wanting all content and mechanics made irrelevant. This game is well on it's way to being "Grind'Ville: Warframe Edition" what more do you want?

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@(PS4)UltraKardas

It is extremely annoying how you read exclusively what you want to read, and completely avoid the hard, factual evidence that dismantles your point. Now, I'll make 4 last points that condense the reasons why Bramma used to be disproportionately powerful. If you still care about proving you are right, respond to each of them, and do not pick and choose whatever suits your argument.

1. Damage per second is the only useful measure in calculating effectiveness.

In an unsuccessful attempt at making the Lenz seem closer in power to the Bramma, you keep referencing damage per projectile instead of damage per second. The issue with damage per projectile is that it completely removes time from the equation, thus rendering differences in rate of fire meaningless in the comparison. This suits your point of course, but it misrepresents weapon effectiveness, because damage per projectile doesn't tell anything about kills per minute. A weapon can have infinite DPP, but if it shoots once per minute, its KPM will be abysmally low. Damage per second (or DPS) on the other hand is in function of time, and as such, knowing the EHP of your targets, can give insight on KPM. Why does KPM matter? Because most gamemodes revolve around killing efficiently. In survival, higher KPM means more life support drops. In ESO, KPM is the whole mechanic that determines failure or success. In Defense, higher KPM means faster waves and more effective farming. Same for Exterminate, and any other missions that at least incentivizes killing: higher KPM means faster completion times. You are right when you say that RoF isn't the only factor in DPS, the only issue is that I've been saying that from the very beginning. The Bramma has higher damage per projectile and higher RoF, so its DPS is disproportionately higher, and it can be proven empirically and mathematically with the footage I've shown and that I'll keep showing in the following points.

2. Your test, and how you maliciously modified the kill times to suit your argument.

On 2020-06-19 at 7:46 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

From the first shot my Lenz at 21 seconds, till the last enemy dies at 34 seconds

My Bramma takes its first shot at the 1:14 mark. It kills everything in 9-10 seconds, which puts us at the 1:24 mark. Lenz took 13 seconds, with a charge rate of 1.5 and a two second blast delay compared to the 10 seconds, of the Kuva Bramma. 

This is totally inaccurate, on purpose. If you really check the video frames for kill times, the results are totally different. And it is pivotal, because this is a test that highly favors the Lenz. I'll repost the frame checks, I hope you read them and verify them for yourself this time.

On 2020-06-19 at 10:55 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said:

You purposefully cut out Lenz's initial charge time, and purposefully delayed the actual moment in which all enemies die with the Bramma. Watch again, carefully. Let's do some framchecks, shall we? You can move single frames with "," and "." on a YouTube video. I assume the footage is 30fps when in 720p, so every frame is 33ms You start charging the Lenz at the tenth frame of second 20, so 20,330s. The last enemy dies at the 17th frame of second 33 from a slash proc, so the time is 33,561. 13,231 seconds TTK (I use comma to separate the integer part from the decimal part, sorry, I'm European). The Bramma starts charging at frame 23 of minute 1:14, so the timing is 1:14,759. The baffling part is the end point. The last arrow clearly lands at frame 20 of minute 1:21. Just watch when the damage numbers appear. So, 1:21,660. And you put 1:24 just to bloat the numbers in your favor. TTK of 6,901 seconds. 13,231 vs 6,901s. The ratio is 1,92. That means the Lenz takes (almost) twice the time to kill the same 10 heavy gunners.

Let's reiterate. 41 million EHP dealt, around 13 seconds for the Lenz, around 7 seconds for the Bramma. Those numbers are rounded in favor of the Lenz, mind you. That's an effective 3,15 million Damage/Second for the Lenz, and 5,85 million Damage/Second for the Bramma. That is unquestionably a massive difference, Bramma, as expected by theoretical calculations (the ones you dismissed as me "being desperate to make an argument"), has almost twice the damage per second.

On 2020-06-20 at 3:21 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Unless my video comparion was unfair, or dishonest, you have lost the argument.

So yes, your comparison was unfair, because bunched targets favor the Lenz excluding the bomblet contribution, and dishonest, because you maliciously skewed the numbers in favor of the Lenz.

3. Bramma has a much higher crowd clearing potential, because of bomblets and higher innate blast radius.

Your test completely removes crowd clearing capabilities as an element of comparison. That's why I used live targets, or at least spaced out targets, for mine. Here's video evidence of Bramma severely outperforming the Lenz, with no ammo involved this time. 

Bramma starts charging right at the beginning of second 12. The last gunner dies at the beginning of second 22. 10s TTK.

Lenz starts charging in the 15th frame of second 12, so around 12,5s. The last gunner dies right at the beginning of second 32. 19,5s TTK. Once again, this shows how Bramma has twice the Damage Per Second.

Now, let's address ease of use against said crowds. These are tests purposefully avoiding headshots or bodyshots, just using the bows' innate AoE to kill the enemies. You said:

On 2020-06-19 at 7:46 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Both weapons are fully capable of that same feat. The real difference between the two weapons is the charge time, and the delay between the explosions. The Lenz doesn't require to hit enemies either. It's radius is more then sufficient to hit enemies. 

And here's hard truth:

40s and 46s TTK for the Lenz, and I'm being generous. 11s and 14s TTK for the Bramma, and I'm being conservative. You might also notice that both weapons have R4 point strikes, which doesn't hurt the Lenz that much, but reduces HM proc chance for the Bramma since it has <100% CC. Bramma can be blindly shot with much more ease, and its damage falls off much better thanks to bomblets that keep proccing slash. When you say that Bramma's damage wasn't nerfed in the patch, you are mistaken. Bomblets were reduced from 7 to 3, removing instances of damage that could proc true damage (slash) and damage boost (viral/corrosive), making the weapon scale worse against armor. And about scaling....

4. Bramma scales much better against armor.

That's because of the higher numbers of slash and viral procs. Here's a test against Gokstad Officers. At level 115, they have 5,4 million EHP (thanks to its 98% damage reduction) compared to a corrupted heavy gunner's 1,9 million EHP (96% damage reduction). I'm using your same method, bunched enemies, which as shown, is detrimental for the Bramma and favoring for the Lenz.

Bramma 8s and a bit less than 7s TTK. Lenz a bit less than 30s TTK for the first test, 34 s for the second, but because of Larva recasting and me getting hit by the knock back, I'll reduce it by 7s, which is more than the time lost, so 27s, and 25s for the third. Again, massive differences.

I hoped I was done with this, but the fact that you completely ignored what I had to say really annoyed me. Face it, the Bramma was disproportionately powerful, all the tests show that it had, at least, almost double DPS than the Lenz. But you had to lie in your own test to save face, which is laughable honestly. If you really want to respond, address all 4 points. Don't even bother responding if you intend to ignore parts of my argumentation as you see fit. The data is all here, and it's honest. Wherever I could, in the various roundings of numbers for TTK and DPS, I leaned in favor of the Lenz on purpose, but even then the difference is just immense between the two.

Edited by (XB1)ShonFr0st
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