SpringRocker Posted July 11, 2020 Author Share Posted July 11, 2020 20 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said: as long as you can avoid the actual points being made and jump to other subjects that have little to nothing to do with it and keep regurgitating in a circle in this manner. I have several pages of points and arguments that I've made, I even conceded on a few (not that you read any of it). You still have 1 point to make. Sounds like you're the one that's crying because someone thinks and posts an argument that a weapon is overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 On 2020-07-10 at 1:35 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: My responses are shrinking because I do not want to flood this forum with stuff that has already been said. If that was true, you'd actually say something new as a new path to prove your point, or you'd admit that you have a very biased opinion, that has quite a few wholes in it. Yet you haven't said anything new. Nor do you attempt to debate me when I bring up new points. For example, you never responded to me when I asked you if the Bramma should do the exact same damage as the lenz. Remember my totally fair AoE video? At some point I asked you if the MR 15 Bramma should kill in the same number of shots as the Lenz. The Bramma killed in one less shot. Na. You didn't have anything to say about that. Instead you'll keep repeating yourself, instead of being honest. How about when I brought up hard mode, with enemies having 2x the health, and 3x the armor. I mentioned that the Bramma pre-nerf wouldn't even be good with how limited its ammo is. (Counters your point, or a point like yours that didn't understand ammo constraints being a very poignant downside.) Here's something completely new for you. Is the Bramma overpowered right now. With 5 shots, is the weapon overpowered? Yes or No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShonOfDawn Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Yet you haven't said anything new. Nor do you attempt to debate me when I bring up new points. But you did not even address the central points of my argumentations. You avoid doing this once again here. How am I supposed to debate someone, if that someone picks and chooses what to respond to? 2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: when I bring up new points. Which new points? You've made zero new points. You've spouted a single sentence for each of my videos, complaining about the R4 point strike, which was corrected, and about the 60/60 mod, which is irrelevant because it doesn't change the comparative damage output between the two, and even if it did, it would never bridge a 2x dps gap. Which again, you have not disproven because you never responded to the frame check videos. 2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: At some point I asked you if the MR 15 Bramma should kill in the same number of shots as the Lenz. The Bramma killed in one less shot. Again, it's not a problem of shots fired, it is a problem of dps. Would I expect the Bramma to perform better than the Lenz? Sure. The Bramma is an "endgame weapon", after all. Is a 2x Dps difference within the realm of reason for an upgrade? God no. Especially when that Dps value is unbeatable by other guns and is delivered through the most brainless way possible. What I'd expect, considering the difference in fire rate, is Bramma taking around 40% more shots to kill the same target. Bramma has 1.8x the fire rate of Lenz, so it taking 1.4x the amount of shots to kill would still give it somewhere around a 30 to 40% increased DPS, plus the ease of use of a direct explosion. 88% more dps is just absurd. 2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: I mentioned that the Bramma pre-nerf wouldn't even be good with how limited its ammo is. Ammo mutation exists, as long as you kill at least one enemy with an arrow, Bramma has zero problems with ammo economy. And I'm pretty sure you can do that in hardmode, everything but heavies can be one shotted. Corrupted lancers at lvl 115 in hard mode have around 500k EHP, well within the one shot range for the Bramma. 2 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Is the Bramma overpowered right now. With 5 shots, is the weapon overpowered? Yes or No? For regular gameplay? Maybe. After Deadlock protocol, I've been using the gun in the same braindead way I've always had, without ever running out of ammo. It's still incredibly powerful and stupidly easy to use, so much that there's no reason to bring a single target weapon over it. It is still spammable, and that's the true issue, especially thanks to Vigilante supplies being mandatory in the exilus. Without that, it would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiltskillet Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 On 2020-07-11 at 3:19 AM, IIAc3sII said: Its people like you which sadly causes fun weapons to get nerfed into oblivion . . . A nerf in this case was inevitable due to the weapon's popularity alone. Less certain, but IMO the runner-up reason would be its visual/audio footprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: But you did not even address the central points of my argumentations. Why would I? You said the same thing over and over again that I've already addressed. I don't view your tests as accurate nor do I take anything you say seriously when you have been wrong so many times. Hence, you tackle my arguments, or you buzz off with your opinion. 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Which new points? Can't follow a simple question? I made several- Cute attempt to ignore them, though. 15 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: If that was true, you'd actually say something new as a new path to prove your point, For example, you never responded to me when I asked you if the Bramma should do the exact same damage as the lenz. Remember my totally fair AoE video? At some point I asked you if the MR 15 Bramma should kill in the same number of shots as the Lenz. The Bramma killed in one less shot.How about when I brought up hard mode, with enemies having 2x the health, and 3x the armor. I mentioned that the Bramma pre-nerf wouldn't even be good with how limited its ammo is. (Counters your point, or a point like yours that didn't understand ammo constraints being a very poignant downside.) Here's something completely new for you.Is the Bramma overpowered right now. With 5 shots, is the weapon overpowered? Yes or No? Try answering these questions. For example, if the Bramma is balanced right now? The damage on the bow never changed. If the only problem with the Bramma was that it was popular, and it was spammable? Not a problem. At all. So you either say "The Bramma is still overpowered" and attempt to reason why, or we come to the conclusion that your point is bogus. (We knew that weeks ago, honestly. You just really have an investment of being wrong.) 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: and about the 60/60 mod, which is irrelevant I addressed this to you awhile back. It is in fact not irrelevant. You pretend it is, because you can't admit you are wrong. +30% element is relevant when it can crit multiple times, and feed into hunter munitions. the 60% status on the Lenz is useless compared to that +30%. I even did damage calculations on how 30% turns into several hundred damage. 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: it would never bridge a 2x dps gap. Which again, you have not disproven because you never responded to the frame check videos. Except that I already proven your double dps claim bogus multiple times. The Bramma doesn't kill in half the time. The Lenz would have to kill in 16 seconds. But hey. At this point you are so dishonest, lying about 9 million bramma dps. Grats on being a charlatan. 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Again, it's not a problem of shots fired, Except that it is a problem of shots fired. As of right now, the Bramma gets one less shot then the Lenz. If you are fighting an enemy, and the bramma doesn't kill it in 5 shots? You are out of ammo. Doesn't matter how fast you shoot, when you don't have a bullet left. Yes, the shots matter. If the Bramma and the Lenz kill in the same amount of shots? They are totally balanced. The Bramma taking one less shot? It's totally balanced. This is because the difference between a prime weapon and a non prime weapon is typically raw damage. The Bramma killing in one less shot, is like the Vectis Prime killing something with one less shot then a normal vectis. Sorry, you are bogus! 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Would I expect the Bramma to perform better than the Lenz? Sure. The Bramma is an "endgame weapon", after all. Is a 2x Dps difference Luckily for you? The Bramma isn't in 2x the dps. If the Lenz killed in 6 shots, 2x the dps would kill in 3 shots. Double the dps = half the ammo used. The Bramma doesn't win from only its fire rate. But you'd have to use your brain to figure that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShonOfDawn Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Why would I? You said the same thing over and over again that I've already addressed. Because that's how you argue? How are you supposed to debate if you don't even read what I write? Also, no, you haven't responded to my argumentations at all. You keep denying the 2x DPS difference, yet frame checks of your own video show that my prediction is accurate. Again, here's the proof (in the spoiler): Spoiler If we actually want a fair comparison, we need a fair way to determine kill times. Here's how we can do it: by frame checking. That means looking at the footage frame by frame to calculate times, with a 33ms precision. I've done that, but you ignored it. Nothing new here. Here's how I did it, so you can easily check for yourself that I'm not lying, not that I have any reason to. The first frame I took for both weapons was the instant in which red appears on the charging circle, meaning the charge has initiated. The last frame I took was when the last damage number appeared: both weapons have heavy FX, so it's hard to visibly confirm the death of enemies. However, damage numbers give the exact instant the damage is dealt, and the last damage number shows the instant the enemy received fatal damage. You can easily go through a YouTube video frame by frame by stopping it and pressing . and , to go, respectively, backwards and forwards one single frame. This are the findings that I posted ages ago on your SUPPOSEDLY PERFECT AND FAIR video. The footage is 30fps when in 720p, so every frame is 33ms You start charging the Lenz at the tenth frame of second 20, so 20,330s. The last enemy dies at the 10th frame of second 33, so the time is 33,330. 13 seconds TTK. The Bramma starts charging at frame 23 of minute 1:14, so the timing is 1:14,759.The last arrow clearly lands at frame 20 of minute 1:21. Just watch when the damage numbers appear. So, 1:21,660. TTK of 6,901 seconds. 13s vs 6,901s. The ratio is 1,88. That means the Lenz takes (almost) twice the time to kill the same 10 heavy gunners. These are the true numbers. From YOUR video. Bramma has 88% more DPS. I guess that categorizes as "way overboard" but you'll surely say it's not. You've never addressed it, and for good reason. It alone dismantles your feverish predictions. 9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: I don't view your tests as accurate nor do I take anything you say seriously when you have been wrong so many times. Tell me, where have I been wrong? If I recall correctly, you were the one making blatantly inaccurate statements regarding progression, ammo economy, probability, DPS values, the function of viral procs, range in AoE weapons, etc... How are my tests inaccurate? You brushed them off because the enemies were moving, and yet not a single shot is wasted nor time is lost, and whenever that happens, it gets accounted in the kill times. When I show you tests with non moving enemies, you brush them off as "spamming", which is exactly what people do in the game. When I show you tests about Lenz taking at least 2.5x the amount of time to kill Gokstad Officers, you cry about the 60/60, which I will discuss later in detail, because you seem to manifest total ignorance about simple math and game systems. This just sounds like a very convenient excuse to ignore crucial points of argumentations, just because they go against your beliefs. 9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: For example, if the Bramma is balanced right now? The damage on the bow never changed. Except the damage did change, because removing 4 bomblets (they went from 7 to 3) highly reduces the chance of Status procs, especially viral and slash, which directly affect damage output. Oh but don't worry, I'm the one "who's wrong so many times". 9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: If you are fighting an enemy, and the bramma doesn't kill it in 5 shots? Oh I'd really like to see a relevant enemy that doesn't die from 5 shots of a decently modded Bramma. In @IIAc3sII's video, with 2 shots he removes one third of the health of a hard mode, lvl 122 Napalm. That means that with 5 shots you almost kill it, except his build is basically worthless because it doesn't have hunter munitions and doesn't have heat as an additional element. With a good build there would be zero issues, especially because there would still be fodder around that takes collateral damage and dies. Just as a short reply to the author of the video: instead of going into massive, unprompted tangents, just look at my platform, I don't have the Steel Path yet. I'd be more than pleased to show you footage when I have access to it. My experience is from sortie 3 and lvl5 Kuva Lich missions, and my play style with Bramma didn't change a bit, ammo is not an issue. Please learn how to build your weapon properly before calling a gun useless. It's also quite amusing that you claim the weapon doesn't kill unless you get headshots, and then clearly show how enemies still die quite easily from the aoe. 9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: I addressed this to you awhile back. It is in fact not irrelevant. You pretend it is, because you can't admit you are wrong. +30% element is relevant when it can crit multiple times, and feed into hunter munitions. the 60% status on the Lenz is useless compared to that +30%. I even did damage calculations on how 30% turns into several hundred damage. My god, your ignorance is blinding. If both weapons have a 90% and a 60/60, both weapons have a total of +150% elemental damage. If I were to switch the Lenz's 60/60 with another 90%, I would do the same on the Bramma, leading to both weapons having a total of +180%. Which wouldn't change the COMPARATIVE damage between the two. Their difference in DPS would remain the exact same. Yeah, the 60% status gives a slight advantage to the Bramma, because it gains 12% status chance compared to the 3% the Lenz gets. But now, answer honestly: do you really think that 9% more status is the ONLY reason for the massive discrepancy in kill times I show in my so-called "flawed and unfair" tests? I mean, against Gokstad Officers, Bramma takes anywhere from 3x to 4x less time to kill the same targets. Against moving crowds it was a clean 2x. Using only AoE, it reached 5x. Do you honestly think that by changing those mods, the Lenz would have any sort of chance? "I even did damage calculations on how 30% turns into several hundred damage.".... wow, hundreds of damage matter a lot against enemies that have 4 million EHP. 9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Except that I already proven your double dps claim bogus multiple times. The Bramma doesn't kill in half the time. The Lenz would have to kill in 16 seconds. And you still completely ignore that in that video, the Bramma killed in 6.901 seconds. The Lenz killed in a clean 13. The difference of DPS is 88%. Which is incredibly close to Bramma having twice the damage. You never countered that, you never even acknowledged it, with what arrogance do you claim that you've proven it bogus? 9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: But hey. At this point you are so dishonest, lying about 9 million bramma dps. Grats on being a charlatan. And I've already responded to this. But you never addressed my response. You purposefully misrepresented my argument the first time: strawman fallacy. You keep attacking me directly: ad hominem fallacy. Here, I'll repost my original calculations, which were THEORETICAL and my original counter argument to your absurd claim, maybe this time you'll pay attention? Disclaimer that was clear in the original post: " I'm assuming perfect rate of fire for both weapons, meaning charge time + reload time, which is unfeasible in normal gameplay, but treats both weapons fairly since it removes user error completely." Original counter argument: "In that calculation, I took the perfect fire rate. You see, when using charge, semi-auto weapons, there's a lot of user error. You might hold the charge a bit too long. You might start charging the next arrow a bit too late, after it has been already nocked and readied. In all of this, you lose precious seconds that lower your overall DPS. So, since you accused me of purposefully playing worse, I assumed the same for you, and made the playing field fair for everyone. The number of arrows used to kill those enemies is factual: 5 for the Bramma, 6 for the Lenz. They were perfect hits for both weapons. What isn't factual is the amount of time taken to shoot those arrows. As I said, one might wait a bit too long to start charging or to release the arrow. So I standardized it for both, using the minimum amount of time required to shoot them, which is derived from charge time and reload time. Those are the results with perfect fire rate. Again, it's impossible to achieve such precision normally. In fact, the faster the weapon shoots, the harder it is to perfectly time shots. But, it gives decent insight on overall effectiveness, and this is corroborated by the fact that actual, practical results, aren't that far off from the theoretical ones. DPS for Bramma is still around the 2x multiplier." You never responded to this. 9 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Yes, the shots matter. If the Bramma and the Lenz kill in the same amount of shots? They are totally balanced. The Bramma taking one less shot? It's totally balanced. This is because the difference between a prime weapon and a non prime weapon is typically raw damage. Not when one weapon fires 1.8x times as fast. It still appears that you simply cannot grasp the concept of damage per second, it's absurd. The Bramma kills in one less shot, but it shoots almost twice as fast. So it has twice the Damage per Second. Why? DPS can be calculated as Damage per Shot*Fire rate. If both guns take 6 and 5 shots respectively to remove X amount of EHP, the damage per shot is x/6 and x/5. So, Bramma's DPS is x/5*(Lenz RoF*1.8). While Lenz's DPS is x/6*(Lenz RoF). If we calculate a ratio, to get a comparative value between the two, we obtain (x/5*(Lenz RoF*1.8))/(x/6*(LenzRoF))=(6/5)*1.8=2,16. And yet you keep denying it, while you yourself give all the data used to reach this simple conclusion. 10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: The Bramma killing in one less shot, is like the Vectis Prime killing something with one less shot then a normal vectis. No, it's more like the rubico taking 5 shots to kill an enemy, and the rubico prime taking 4 shots, but firing twice as fast. It's absolutely not the same, especially when the assumed "base weapon", i.e the Lenz, is already a pretty powerful AoE weapon. 10 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: If the Lenz killed in 6 shots, 2x the dps would kill in 3 shots. Double the dps = half the ammo used. Nah. Double the DPS=half the time to kill. So it could still mean that both weapons kill in 6 shots, but one takes half the time to fire those shots. Oh, guess what, that is exactly what happens with the Lenz and the Bramma. Now, I'm sure you'll just zero in on the smallest detail possible, make a useless 500 word essay on said tangent, and completely ignore my other points, because that's just the way you argue. At least try to respond to all the points, this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protecttheplanet Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Do not forget that it's a fun weapon to use. People like me use it because it's a firework shooting bow. "B-but it outperforms everything" no it doesn't, melee weapons like gram and kronen do. It will get riven dispo nerfed due to popularity but I fear that same as shedus and dragon nikanas nerf in April DE will fail to see that a weapon that is used because it's fun/stylish doesn't justify a nerf. Anyways this point is kind of moot as enough people already cried about it and it will get dispo nerfed. Too bad, I always wanted a Lenz bow without the delay but I guess I won't have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShonOfDawn Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 On 2020-07-13 at 4:46 PM, IIAc3sII said: And as always, you look at the video which I made to point out the ammo issues and you ignore that and twist it into something that fits your "bramma OP" narrative, the reason I dont have heat or hunter munition is because I had to remove hunter munitions to fit in that lame [ammo drum] mod instead so I could have 9 ammo instead of 5 to shoot just a tiny bit longer, and I refuse to pull out my [primed cryo rounds] mod just to fit in a mod that gives heat when bramma only has 21% status chance. No, the reason you don't have Hunter Munitions is because you have no clue how to build a primary. Heavy Caliber on that build is completely useless, and should be replaced with hunter munitions. Considering you already have serration and a +118% damage riven, heavy caliber falls off and gives around 30% more total raw damage. Hunter munitions gives a bit less than 30% chance to deal 35% of the weapon damage as true damage for 6 ticks (so +215% true damage every proc), which is incredibly more beneficial against armored enemies. You handicap yourself and then yell "weapon useless". By using heat, I meant as the base element the Bramma came with. You either have ice or toxin, which are much less useful. A single heat proc can increase your raw damage against heavy armor anywhere from 70% to a straight 100%. Your inability to maintain ammo economy is a direct result of your inability to mod your weapon properly for damage, because you know, enemies drop ammo as long as you kill them. The point I was making is that you all are vastly exaggerating the ammo problem, since literally everything outside of endurance can be killed within 5 Bramma shots. If you build decently, that is. Your riven covers both vital sense and vigilante armaments, so you have 1 free slot for ammo drum... Plus carrier, you'd have 11 shots, which is more than enough. On 2020-07-13 at 4:46 PM, IIAc3sII said: Normally I'd say its around level 100-120 for me, well with your build it would be around level 80-100 where you wouldn't get enough ammo to keep using bramma then, if you think doing more damage is a good trade off for making bramma become out of ammo sooner, then you clearly don't use bramma. Oh, once again the excuse "then you clearly don't use the weapon". I use it a fair bit in all relevant content. That is, everything outside of endurance, as I honestly don't see the point in spending one hour+ in arbitrations just to see how the weapon performs, when there is no reason against simply exiting after 8 rotations and restarting it. DE already said that they do not balance around endurance. So, whether a weapon is overpowered or not is seen up to level 120, which is the upmost range of relevancy in terms of rewards. All weapons have a level cap. And if that cap is above 120, it doesn't matter. Steel path might be a new measuring scale, but I'd be cautious since it isn't relevant in terms of rewards, it's not better for farming, and steel essence just buys cosmetics and resources that are farmable more efficiently elsewhere. On 2020-07-13 at 4:46 PM, IIAc3sII said: Figures, another person who isnt even high level and who probably doesnt use bramma talking nonsense about it, if you cant even access Steel Path yet then that means you havn't even unlocked all nodes from normal mode yet, which means you havnt even used bramma in longer missions where enemies become high level, like arbitrations. ..... I'm on console. I don't have the Steel Path simply because the update isn't out. Instead of assuming skill and experience, learn how to read, I specified it in the very post you quoted. You are quite vitriolic in this unprompted exchange, for no reason whatsoever. I wasn't even talking to you until you quoted me, and the discussion I'm having with the other guy is regarding his inability to see that pre-nerf Bramma was an issue as it overshadowed all other primaries. Post-nerf is another discussion entirely, and I'm simply stating that with a decent build, the gun hasn't change a bit in regular content. I really don't get the morbid attachment people have to this gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenryusaiYamamoto13 Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 49 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: I really don't get the morbid attachment people have to this gun. It's really simple. The strive for ultimate power has always been in the game. Once a new weapon with incredible destructive power appears, everyone want to get their hands on the weapon and ignore the possibility of a future nerf/"balance". DE is partly to blame here, because they release an atomic bomb and ignore the fact it'll get overused and overrated and they'll eventually have to tone it down. Once your favorite 1shot trillion damage 10m AoE weapon gets "nerfed"/"balanced", people will lose their will and start cutting their wrists. "man this gun is super OP as hell, I'll invest 10 formas in it, I am absolutely sure DE won't "nerf" it or "balance" it!" It's pathetic, absolutely pathetic how this power creep meta mentality ruined the game. Players act surprised when there's a "sudden" tone down for their favorite OP weapon. That is why I never get attached to any weapon, unless I know it's not OP/Overused/Overrated so there's no inevitable "nerf" or "balance". And if there is one, I'll gladly accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiltskillet Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 1 hour ago, GenryusaiYamamoto13 said: DE is partly to blame here Almost entirely. I'm tempted to just say "entirely, for all practical purposes", since gamer psychology is unlikely to change on a large scale. OTOH DE could have fixed much of this specific situation with just a modicum of balancing and some thought to the fx issues before the weapon was released. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShonOfDawn Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 24 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said: Except you havnt even unlocked all normal nodes, you have no access to arbitrations, you have no access to Steel Path, so in essence, all you play is low level where bramma one shots everything, congratz. My god are you really that ignorant? I'll state it for the third time, I can't play steel path, because xbox is still on 28.0.5 (despite having Inaros prime access), which simply doesn't have Steel Path as a game mode yet. Of course I have access to arbitrations. I have around 1.5k hours in the game, by some standards that is still low, but I think I know what I'm talking about. I really don't get your need to purposefully try to demean me, that won't get you anywhere. 24 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said: 45.7%; but okay, I will follow your suggestion and try hunter munitions since apparently we all must have a perfect build with a perfect riven to even make bramma playable on higher levels, this in itself confirms that the weapon does have serious issues. Well, it's not about having a perfect build, it's about having some common sense. You build a Crit Primary for hunter munitions against armor, there's no question about it. Most enemies in the steel path have more than 95% Damage Reduction, that means true damage is at least 20x more effective than raw. Without heavy caliber you do lose a bit of raw, but it is well worth the trade off. Also, about elements: once again you seem to completely miss the point. The most effective combo is Viral and Heat. That is achieved with a heat Bramma, plus a toxin and ice elemental in the build. I'd argue with that you can forgo ammo drum entirely, but I did not test it. I'll do it as soon as steel path drops on console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 On 2020-07-13 at 7:11 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Because that's how you argue? Yup. Prove me Wrong. Something you haven't been able to do. You haven't proven the Bramma's 2x damage over the lenz. You haven't been able to prove a single rational point that the Bramma is overpowered. Not a single argument you have said has been close to being correct, or persuasive. You see, when I test the Bramma vs the Lenz, I get anywhere between 4-5 million dps on the Bramma, and 3 million for the Lenz. Meanwhile, you lie about the Bramma having 9 million dps per second. As a couple of other people have pointed out? You're pretty much nonsense. Your argument only has gotten weaker with hard mode coming out, and the Bramma's nerfed ammo pool. Just an fyi btw- Hard mode completely breaks your narrative. Remember my AOE video? Took 5 shots to kill level 140 enemies? Enemies who have 3x the armor, and 2x the health are now going to completely empty the Bramma's ammo pool. Those same enemies in hard mode? 6x the health and now the Bramma having less then half the ammo. So much for overpowered. On 2020-07-13 at 7:11 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Also, no, you haven't responded to my argumentations at all. You keep denying the 2x DPS difference, You keep failing to prove the 2x dps difference. You clearly lied about it saying the Bramma somehow has double the dps difference, claiming it had 9 million something dps. But your facts have never checked out chief. Bramma killing in one less shot? Not quite double dps buddy. Bramma killing in half the shots, or half the time? Double dps. Bramma didn't do either, and yet you pretend. Simple fact is? Lenz on a critical headshot with HM is functionally identical to the bramma. You just can't admit you are wrong. On 2020-07-13 at 7:11 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You've never addressed it, Except that I did. Lenz Kills at 13 second mark. In order to kill in half of that time? You need to kill at 6.5 second mark. Bramma doesn't kill even at 8 seconds, nor does it kill at 7 seconds. Nor does the Bramma kill in half of the shots of the Lenz. The difference between the two weapons is a single shot 😉 On 2020-07-13 at 7:11 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Tell me, where have I been wrong? On 2020-06-19 at 2:55 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Bramma: 5 arrows -> charge-reload-charge-reload-charge-reload-charge-reload-charge. Charge time: 0,4s Reload time: 0,6s Total time: (0,4s*5+0,6s*4)=4,4s Dps: 41*10^6/4.4s=9,32 million DPS Lenz: 6 arrows, same scheme as before. Charge time: 1,2s Reload time: 0,6s Total time: (1,2*6+0,6*5)=10,2s Dps: 41*10^6/10,2s=4,02 million DPS See above ^ 9.32 million dps is the claim you made. Enemy health was calculated at 40 million health. At 9.32 million DAMAGE PER SECOND It would take LESS THEN 5 SECONDS TO KILL. 9 million dps multiplied by 5 seconds = 45 million damage. As is stands right now? Bramma is a dead weapon with its ammo pool being so awful. Even by your own admission, YOU ADMIT it isn't 2x the dps. YOU ADMIT IT. Then you tried to turn around and lie to me. On 2020-06-21 at 4:38 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Let's reiterate. 41 million EHP dealt, around 13 seconds for the Lenz, around 7 seconds for the Bramma. Those numbers are rounded in favor of the Lenz, mind you. That's an effective 3,15 million Damage/Second for the Lenz, and 5,85 million Damage/Second for the Bramma Bramma doing 2x the dps would loot like this. Lenz Dps x2 = Bramma dps. OR Bramma dps x.5 = Lenz Dps. 3.15 million x2 = 6.30 million. That's higher then what YOU said the Bramma's dps was. (And you have already been proven wrong on damage numbers.) Ok. Let's try taking the Bramma's damage in half. 5.85 x 1/2 = 2.9 = Lower then the Lenz. The biggest thing you ever said that was wrong was that Shots required to kill don't matter. That's the biggest one. Now, let's actually talk the facts here. The Bramma took 5 shots to kill. Lenz took 6. You haven't said nor have you ever claimed the Lenz was overpowered, or broken. So if the Bramma and the Lenz did the same damage per shot, but the Bramma has a lower CRIT rate, and a higher fire rate. Under these circumstances, the Lenz would far outclass the Bramma. This is because the Bramma doesn't always crit. It couldl shoot faster, but the Lenz would outdamage it on every double crit by a large amount. The Bramma would run out of ammo faster, take more shots to kill, and its crits would be a lot less then the Lenz. Fire rate alone, doesn't make the Bramma Op. If it had the exact raw damage of the Lenz, it would be simply an alternative. Faster fire rate, for less crits. Fact of the matter is. Difference between 5 shots and 6 is so minor in normal gameplay, that in any normal mission, the Lenz can substitute for the Bramma. In hard mode? Both of them are trash. Neither are overpowered, in fact. Both are utterly useless. They do not have the ammo reserves to stay useful in those modes. On 2020-06-09 at 7:10 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Except you are completely ignoring how plentiful ammo is in this game. And the fact that all weapons have free modding real estate for ammo mutations. And that carrier exists. If that is not willful ignorance I don't know what is. There are so many options to circumvent the ammo economy entirely that this isn't even an argument. This quote aged well, lol. Considering how the Bramma now has the lowest ammo pool of all weapons, gets reduced ammo from picks ups, has no innate ammo mutation, and now is required to have more then just a carrier for ammo. Now. How come people aren't using the Bramma in hard mode? You said ammo is plentiful and doesn't matter. The Bramma does the same damage, Right?? Oh wait, Ammo does matter. That's why the HARD MODE META is mostly dominated by melee weapons, weapons that can scale, WARFRAMES like Khora or Baruuk, or weapons that have the ammo to fire more then 5 shots. On 2020-06-09 at 7:10 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: They do need changes, because they completely invalidate other options (rather have enemies dead than CCed), much like the Bramma does. Warframe's light levels are listed... they are called Mastery Requirements. Except the Bramma is completely invalidated now 🙂 Also- The last sentence in there is where you said Light Level is comparable to Mastery Requirements- This is another blatantly wrong thing you said. Light Level is gear score. A low level player can buy a prime access, or even get to be mr 13 and his gear can be forma-ed to the max, with all the right mods to be equal to the gear of somebody else. Light Level is the strength of your current gear. Mastery Rank is leveling up a weapon once, and trashing it for some 200-300 weapons. Not the same thing- Just a nitpick since you wanted to be reminded of all the things you have said that are wrong. On 2020-06-09 at 7:10 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: There needs to be limits to that power of course, Incorrect too. Warframe's biggest appeal is the unlimited power you can get. The Power needs to be above our enemies power. This is because there can be an infinite amount of enemies, with levels in the hundreds or thousands, and players have the ability to fight back. Limiting Player power is restricting them to only bringing guns in a knife fight. 43 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: My god are you really that ignorant? This sentence applies far more to you, then anyone else. Out of the many, many, many flaws in your argument? The main one comes that you never honestly consider the possibilities of you being wrong. You should consider that the Bramma isn't overpowered and see where the logic of that would go- People would use other weapons instead of the Bramma in situations where the Bramma isn't as good. Like... Like in steel path. Like in Eidolons. Like in raids, raid bosses, and a handful of situations. I haven't seen a single Bramma since they nerfed the ammo. But you said that didn't matter?!?! On 2020-06-09 at 7:10 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: They do need changes, because they completely invalidate other options (rather have enemies dead than CCed), much like the Bramma does. And the Bramma is now invalidated by any weapon that has an ammo count higher then 5, that doesn't get reduced ammo drops. Khora now invalidates the Bramma- Why use a bow with limited capacity, reduced ammo restore, when you can just use a dps frame with far more ammo to kill enemies- Almost like weapons, warframes, and all tools in the game compete with each other. And that's about it. Only every last single thing you've said has been confirmed to be wrong. I think its over folks. Put a fork in him, he's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 54 minutes ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Well, it's not about having a perfect build, it's about having some common sense. Except that common sense is neither something you have, nor does everyone have or know the power of hunter munitions. Quite a few people see hunter munitions and go "Only 30% chance to deal damage? That's 70% of the time this mod does nothing!" It's a mod that isn't always popular, cause it can be inconsistent- Especially on any weapon without 100% crit. However- Hunter Munitions is still reduced by armor. The less damage the crit is, the less the damage is on the enemy. Steel Path enemies with 3x armor, really mitigate what hunter munitions can do. Maybe go buy yourself some common sense buddy- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShonOfDawn Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Something you haven't been able to do. You haven't proven the Bramma's 2x damage over the lenz. You haven't been able to prove a single rational point that the Bramma is overpowered. Oh wow. This? Again? I will frame check your video, again. This time, read it and confirm it for yourself. https://youtu.be/BsWuXo0-xWo The video is in 30 frames per second, as such every frame is 33ms. You can switch frames on a YouTube video singularly by pressing , and . ; For both calculation, I took as the first frame the one in which the charging reticle begins to get filled with red; as the last frame, I took the very instant in which the last damage number appears, as most of the time visual FX obfuscate targets. I calculate the position of the frame inside a second by designating as the first frame of that second the one in which the switch of time stamp appears. Lenz: Beginning: Frame 11 of second 20. Time: 20s 363ms End: Frame 9 of second 34. The last damage number that appears is a white 2632 coming from a slash proc; that deals the killing blow. Time: 34s 297ms. TTK for the Lenz: 34,297 - 20,363=13,934s Bramma: Beginning: Frame 25 of second 1:14. Time: 1m 14s 825 ms End: Frame 18 of second 1:21. The last damage numbers that appear are two yellow 8562 and 8513, an orange 3499 and a white 425. Time: 1m 21s 594ms TTK for the Bramma: 21,594 - 14,825 = 6,769. Huh, this is strange, I would have sworn last time I checked it, it was 6,901. This are as accurate as you can get them. Even if we use 6,901 for the Bramma, the DPS discrepancy is 13,934/6,901 = 2,019. This is the DPS difference. If you disagree with the times, then propose an alternative, step-by-step, reproducible way to calculate more accurate kill times than I did. Other tests, especially against Gokstad Officers, that have higher EHP, show how the Bramma had anywhere from 2.5x to 4x the DPS, and that was recorded using your same exact method of bunching enemies with Nidus. You never disproved that, just ignored it. Also, you seem to keep misrepresenting my stance. My original point was that no primary could perform as well as the Bramma in clearing regular content (no bosses, no endurance), pre-nerf. You proposed the Lenz as a competitor, but so far, nowhere was the Lenz superior to the Bramma. In fact, Bramma always showed overwhelming dominance. 2x DPS is just an indicative value of how big that chasm is. So, my original thesis, "the Bramma was by far the best primary before its nerf", definitely still stands unscathed. Your arrogance in calling me at fault, when you have done nothing other than ignore factual information, is appalling. 3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: You see, when I test the Bramma vs the Lenz, I get anywhere between 4-5 million dps on the Bramma, and 3 million for the Lenz. Numbers? Evidence? This is all fluff without proving it, you know. And still, this shows how the Bramma is superior anyways, which does nothing to reinforce your position. You are just desperately trying to find some mistakes in my reasoning, in the hope of discrediting my whole position by blowing a small detail out of proportion. That detail used to be the R4 point strike, but when it was corrected, it became the 60/60, when I proved you wrong, demonstrating that the mod isn't relevant enough to justify the massive discrepancy, the detail you turned to with petty rigidity was the 2x DPS. Somehow you think that by grasping at straws and finding a scenario in which that 2x dps isn't true, you'd "win" the argument. That simply isn't the case, because even if the 2x difference wasn't real, which it is, the Bramma would still be the better weapon by a large margin. And thus, my thesis would still stand. 3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Your argument only has gotten weaker with hard mode coming out, and the Bramma's nerfed ammo pool. My argument didn't get weaker, because my point was never about post-nerf Bramma or hard mode. My original point was that pre-nerf Bramma, in the pre-nerf environment, so without hardmode, was by far the best primary in the game, unfairly trumping over every other weapon. The comparisons and argumentations were all related to pre-nerf Bramma, in regular content. You are once again engaging in a straw man fallacy by mixing and matching pieces of my argumentation as you see fit. My stance on current Bramma, is that it is still a strong and useful weapon. OP in non-steel path content? That's debatable, and I don't have enough information to claim whether it is or not. You all seem to regard it as completely useless just to cry over the nerf, but with a good setup, it's quite simple to get to pre-nerf level of power. And that's fine, because now you need to actually make thoughtful load out choices in order to get that level of power for a primary. Now you might say that needing to focus your load out on a primary is useless when melee and abilities do the job better, but that's an issue with those two other systems, not an issue with the gun. The Bramma remains a very competent weapon all throughout regular content by just using ammo mutation and a full damage build. 3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Those same enemies in hard mode? 6x the health and now the Bramma having less then half the ammo. So much for overpowered. The only one who's saying post-nerf Bramma is op in hard mode is you. I merely pointed out that the gun could work fairly well with a HM build, and that shouting angrily at the over nerf when building a gun in the wrong way is disingenuous at best. 3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: You keep failing to prove the 2x dps difference. My previous frame check begs to differ. Against 10 lvl115 Gokstad Officers (see the videos and more in depth kill time breakdowns in the previous posts), you get these kill times: Bramma 8s and 7s TTK. Lenz 30s, 27s, and 25s. That's a lowest value of 3,125x more DPS, and a highest value of 4,28x more DPS. These admittedly have no frame checks, but the differences are so abyssal that they would be almost pointless. Averages against live crowds also show DPS discrepancies of around 2x. AoE only tests show anywhere from 3x to 5x. The data is all in my previous posts. I think this is enough information to generalize the difference as twice more DPS. 3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Bramma killing in one less shot? Not quite double dps buddy. Math begs to differ, considering fire rate: On 2020-07-13 at 3:11 PM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: DPS can be calculated as Damage per Shot*Fire rate. If both guns take 6 and 5 shots respectively to remove X amount of EHP, the damage per shot is x/6 and x/5. So, Bramma's DPS is x/5*(Lenz RoF*1.8). While Lenz's DPS is x/6*(Lenz RoF). If we calculate a ratio, to get a comparative value between the two, we obtain (x/5*(Lenz RoF*1.8))/(x/6*(LenzRoF))=(6/5)*1.8=2,16. And yet you keep denying it, while you yourself give all the data used to reach this simple conclusion. This is from my previous post, but of course you couldn't be bothered to read it and respond. 3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Lenz Kills at 13 second mark. In order to kill in half of that time? You need to kill at 6.5 second mark. Bramma doesn't kill even at 8 seconds, nor does it kill at 7 seconds. Your numbers are vague and have no foundation in solid, reproducible evidence. Propose your own frame checks if you disagree with mine. 4 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: See above ^ 9.32 million dps is the claim you made. Enemy health was calculated at 40 million health. At 9.32 million DAMAGE PER SECOND It would take LESS THEN 5 SECONDS TO KILL. 9 million dps multiplied by 5 seconds = 45 million damage. As is stands right now? Bramma is a dead weapon with its ammo pool being so awful. Even by your own admission, YOU ADMIT it isn't 2x the dps. YOU ADMIT IT. Then you tried to turn around and lie to me. At this point, I really think you just lack the intellectual ability to discern what I'm saying. I've explained it to you multiple times, and yet you keep clinging onto this point in a pointless way. If you had the honesty to quote the lines before what you cherry picked, you would find this wonderful disclaimer, which was put there in the very same post in which those calculations are. Read this with me, ok? " I'm assuming perfect rate of fire for both weapons, meaning charge time + reload time, which is unfeasible in normal gameplay, but treats both weapons fairly since it removes user error completely." Seriously, I don't even know in what way I can phrase it to make you understand. You keep using the strawman argument that I'm wrong and a liar because I said the Bramma as 9 million dps, but you just keep making yourself look like an absolute fool who just reads whatever he wants to read, extrapolates quotes from their context, and then waves them around like a flag in a petty attempt to prove the other wrong. I'll repeat this once again: those DPS values where calculated removing user error, and simulating perfect inputs. Whenever you fire a semi-auto weapon consecutively, you waste time because your input isn't perfect. You hold the charge too long and start charging too late, after the reload already happened. By using the in-game values for charge and reload, you remove those mistakes for both weapons. The DPS value you get is just indicative and not 100% close to reality, but it shows the theoretical, perfect potential of both weapons. I know you keep bringing it up because you have nothing else to cling to and you are so desperately trying to paint me as a bad guy to hide your own inability to form coherent, linear thoughts, but it's just pathetic. Especially because this was explained to you 5 times already, and you ignored it wholesale. 4 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: This quote aged well, lol. Considering how the Bramma now has the lowest ammo pool of all weapons, gets reduced ammo from picks ups, has no innate ammo mutation, and now is required to have more then just a carrier for ammo. Now. How come people aren't using the Bramma in hard mode? You said ammo is plentiful and doesn't matter. The Bramma does the same damage, Right?? Oh wait, Ammo does matter. That's why the HARD MODE META is mostly dominated by melee weapons, weapons that can scale, WARFRAMES like Khora or Baruuk, or weapons that have the ammo to fire more then 5 shots. You, again, mix quotes from ages ago, in an entirely different setting, with a weapon that under that aspect now works in a totally different way, and hope to build a counter argument out of that. It's messy, and logically flawed, to be polite. The statement "Ammo is plentiful and does not matter" contains a series of components and presuppositions that make it work. Firstly, the abundance of enemies and the speed at which they are killed. Secondly, the ammo obtained per pick up, which used to be ten for a bow. These two factors combined created an environment in which pre-nerf Bramma never had a reason to run out of ammo. I wrote this as a direct response of this statement by you: Quote Except that single target weapons have on average anywhere between 8-10x the ammo capacity and shoot far faster. If single target weapons use 5 shots to kill said 5 enemies, you have enough ammo to do that same scenario 100 more times. (Average assault rifle ammo is 540. The AoE weapons in that scenario can do that typically 20 more times. Most launchers don't have more then 60-70 shots. Using the Zarr specifically, it would get a max of 140 kills. That makes assault rifles nearly 4x as efficient. You had laughably stated that single target weapons are better than AoE ones because they are more ammo efficient. Which simply wasn't the case back then, because launchers have better ammo economy than most rifles. You are taking a statement, stripping it of its context, and trying it to use as you please. Think about this. Why did DE modify the ammo pick up rate for the Bramma on top of reducing its ammo count? Precisely because ammo is plentiful, and does not matter. DE wants the Bramma to have some downtime, or at least, wants it to be used without blindly spamming it. Just reducing the ammo count would have done nothing, because every ammo mutation pick up would have given you a full reserve back. Post-nerf Bramma isn't the point of this conversation, that bow is functional. Using post-nerf Bramma as a point of comparison to disprove the pre-nerf Bramma's need for a rightful nerf is beyond stupid. 5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: This is another blatantly wrong thing you said. Light Level is gear score. A low level player can buy a prime access, or even get to be mr 13 and his gear can be forma-ed to the max, with all the right mods to be equal to the gear of somebody else. Light Level is the strength of your current gear. Mastery Rank is leveling up a weapon once, and trashing it for some 200-300 weapons. Not the same thing- Just a nitpick since you wanted to be reminded of all the things you have said that are wrong. Blatantly? Do you even know the meaning of that word? It means "obvious". What's obviously wrong about comparing one form of progression system to another? Yours is not a nitpick, it's a direct inability to see a comparison for what it is, a comparison. Both Light Levels and Mastery Requirements establish a hierarchy of gear, and you'd expect weapons in the same level of the hierarchy to perform similarly. I used this comparison because you claimed that weapons in warframe do not have an established hierarchy of gear, by stating "The difference is that warframe's light levels aren't listed so people like you understand that this weapon is endgame". Do you see now? Your statement, "warframe doesn't have an established hierarchy of gear, there's just powerful gear and non-powerful gear" was the blatantly wrong one. Warframe does have a progression system for weapons, and it is called "Mastery Requirements". It is a progression because one way or another you have to pass through the lower ranks before reaching the higher ones, just as you slowly build up your Light level. Your attempt at looking smart and flawless is just pitiful, especially when you totally butcher core game mechanics (I'll get to your absurd claim about hunter munitions in just a moment...), and then try to make it sound like I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. You are projecting a lot. 5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Warframe's biggest appeal is the unlimited power you can get. Oh yeah, then let's release a big button that instantly kills everything on the map, no matter how far. After all, power is all that matters no? Warframe's biggest appeal surely isn't the fun of experimenting with a vast and diverse armory of crazy and viable gear, no no, it's using the handful of meta options and forgetting the 200+ choices that are inevitably left behind because of power creep. Great analysis. 5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Out of the many, many, many flaws in your argument? You still have to name one. One flaw that defeats the statement "Pre-nerf Bramma was the best primary by a large margin in regular play, and that was unhealthy for the variety of choices in the primary slot". Until now, you've just nitpicked and moved the goal post as you saw fit. 5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: You should consider that the Bramma isn't overpowered and see where the logic of that would go- People would use other weapons instead of the Bramma in situations where the Bramma isn't as good. Like... Like in steel path. Like in Eidolons. Like in raids, raid bosses, and a handful of situations. See, why should I consider options that were either non-existent or not part of the discussion from its inception? The "situations in which the Bramma isn't as good", before its nerf, were Eidolons and that's it. Raids and raid bosses do not exist anymore. Steel path did not exist when the discussion begun and when I took my stance. "The handful of situations" you mention are just rhetorical fluff. For regular play, pre-Bramma dominated head and shoulders above all other primaries, and that hurt the game. You were firmly against that and still are, so I'm still arguing against it, because that position is nonsensical. I'm not saying anything about current Bramma, other than the fact it's far from useless. I'm more than open to have my mind changed, but you just insulted my intelligence, ignored and misinterpreted my points on multiple occasions, while keeping an attitude of smugness that simply isn't deserved considered the logical travesties that are your posts. 5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: And the Bramma is now invalidated by any weapon that has an ammo count higher then 5, that doesn't get reduced ammo drops. The lato has a higher ammo count than 5, is it better than the Bramma? The stug as more than 5 shots, is that better than the Bramma? What are you even talking about? 5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: warframes, and all tools in the game compete with each other. Surely, but that was never the point of this discussion. Frames are another different issue, and they too need massive rebalancing. 5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Only every last single thing you've said has been confirmed to be wrong. That's such a bold claim considering that you say stuff like this: 5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: It's a mod that isn't always popular, cause it can be inconsistent- Especially on any weapon without 100% crit. However- Hunter Munitions is still reduced by armor. The less damage the crit is, the less the damage is on the enemy. You don't even know how slash procs work. Here, let me give you an easy example: a gun hits with 100 damage an enemy with 95% damage reduction and 100 health. So, the damage dealt is just 5, and it still has 95 health. Now let's suppose that same gun with 100 damage, deals a slash proc. Now, the enemy still receives a base of 5 damage, but each tic deals 35% of the total, unmitigated 100 damage, so the enemy will be dead in a single shot and 3 tics of slash, instead of 20 mitigated shots. The same applies to Hunter Munitions. Slash procs completely bypass armor and scale off the unmitigated damage the shot would have dealt. So, crit and base damage affect them. So, you didn't know how viral and slash procs worked, and then you have the audacity to come and lecture me on this game's mechanics? Please, if I were you I'd be endlessly embarrassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: If you disagree with the times, Except that damage numbers can pop up once all the enemies are already dead. Using the map, and seeing when the bright glowing red mark is gone from the map is more accurate. (For both the Bramma, and the Lenz) 6 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: TTK for the Bramma: 21,594 - 14,825 = 6,769. Huh, this is strange, I would have sworn last time I checked it, it was 6,901. Don't worry. Everyone here is used to you being wrong. Yeah, not exactly filling me with confidence when you get different results every time you try to calculate dps, buddy. Until you can find a method of calculating dps, that isn't demonstrably false, that is consistent? I really couldn't care less about the figures you come up. Your math changes on the same calculation from anywhere between 4 million or 5 million dps, all the way up to 9 million dps. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: If you disagree with the times, then propose an alternative, step-by-step, reproducible way to calculate more accurate kill times than I did. Other tests, especially against Gokstad Officers, that have higher EHP, show how the Bramma had anywhere from 2.5x to 4x the DPS, and that was recorded using your same exact method of bunching enemies with Nidus. You never disproved that, just ignored it. Didn't ignore it. I never bothered watching it. This is because you have yet to own up to the fact that 70% of what you say is demonstrably false. In my last post- I quoted only half a dozen things you've said wrong. So till you own up to that, your credibility with me = -7 I have more accurate results assuming what you say is false, since your so simple minded that straightforward concepts elude you. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Also, you seem to keep misrepresenting my stance. My original point was that no primary could perform as well as the Bramma in clearing regular content No, your original stance was blatantly "The Bramma is the most overpowered thing in the game, and it should be nerfed into the floor." Pre-Nerf Bramma couldn't perform as well as an AoE Saryn in clearing regular content. So this is just you backtracking once you realize your own argument is idiotic. This is because people can take your own quotes, and use them against you. Easily at that. As much as you try to weasel your away around the facts? The difference between the Bramma and the Lenz was a single shot. A single shot, is a marginal difference. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: My argument didn't get weaker Actually it very much did. Your argument is is and has been dead for weeks. But hard mode and post nerf killed the entirety of your argument. I asked you a question only several posts ago, repeated the question, and you haven't been brave enough to answer it.Is the Bramma still overpowered, since its damage wasn't nerfed? SO you either answer NO, the Bramma isn't overpowered now, and admit that your argumment that ammo doesn't matter is wrong. You said ammo didn't matter. You said that the Bramma invalidates all other weapons. Or you answer Yes, which is demonstrably false considering the Bramma is completely invalidated in Hard Mode. If the Bramma was so amazing, that it could outperform every primary in REGULAR content it should outperform every primary in the hard content. Except, it doesn't. Week 3 of you wasting everyone's time. It's cute you can't admit you are wrong. Truly, rather embarrassing. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: My original point was that pre-nerf Bramma, in the pre-nerf environment, so without hardmode, was by far the best primary in the game, unfairly trumping over every other weapon. Again, this is a cop out. There has been no dps change from pre-nerf Bramma to post nerf. The damage is the same. The Bramma didn't trump every weapon then, and it certainly doesn't trump every weapon now. You said ammo doesn't matter. So if ammo doesn't matter, the Bramma still should trump every other weapon. Do you want me to test the Bramma against other top tier weapons? Cause it straight up doesn't have the ammo capacity now. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: The comparisons and argumentations were all related to pre-nerf Bramma, in regular content. Nope. Level 140 corrupted heavy gunners aren't regular content. Most regular content in Warframe is anything below final sortie levels. A level 140 corrupted heavy gunner isn't regular content. If you and I compared any other enemy type between the Lenz and the Bramma? Both weapons would most likely kill in a single shot -- Making them comparable. Shon- You really have terrible arguments, and it's showing here. As usual. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You are once again engaging in a straw man fallacy by mixing and matching pieces of my argumentation as you see fit. Your direct quote was this. On 2020-06-09 at 7:10 AM, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: They do need changes, because they completely invalidate other options (rather have enemies dead than CCed), much like the Bramma does. You said the Bramma invalidates all other weapons in all other content. (Except stuff like raids, raid bosses and the like.) You have change your own argument (called shifting the goal posts) because the Bramma came out before hard mode. If pre-nerf Bramma had been around for Hard mode, you would have to face up to the facts that the weapon has built in weaknesses in its weapon design that other weapons don't suffer from. Hard mode makes you face the reality that things you thought didn't matter (Like Ammo economy) is a severe weakness on the weapon. You pretnd otherwise. Ask anyone about the weapon. They will all state the Bramma's ammo economy is a blatant issue, even in regular content now. In hard content, the Bramma is useless as it was only ever good as long as it could consistently resupply ammo. The Bramma has no efficient way to strip armor, nor can it perform constistently in hard mode. It doesn't have the ammo, nor does its AoE particularly matter anymore. From the beginning of this thread, you maintained that the Bramma invalidated EVERY OTHER WEAPON. And from the beginning, I have told you, how wrong you are, as other weapons beat it in status effects department, healing, ammo capacity, or single target damage. The Bramma was only ever good at one thing. AoE. Not status effects. Not crit chance/damage. Wasn't good at boss fights. It was literally the Saryn of weapons. Good at AoE, not so great at anything else. The Bramma at most shoots 3 arrows. That's maybe 3 instances to proc status, then maybe the cluster bombs proc a status in their aoe. It can't get 100% status without killing its damage. At most you get 12 projectiles, with sub 100 status proc. Strun Wraith has maximum of like 28 pellets, and is only infinitely better in hard mode. Maybe because it can proc status effects only a dozen of times every shot, and has ammo economy. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Blatantly? Do you even know the meaning of that word? It means "obvious". What's obviously wrong about comparing one form of progression system to another? Because light level can be decreased by un-equipping gear~ You can't un-equip Mastry Rank. Nor does Mastery Rank represent the power of your currently equipped arsenal. If a MR 28 player in warframe equips a mk-1 braton with no mods, or forma, he is still Mr 28. If a light level 1200 Warlock in Destiny equips the Khvostov 7G-02, your light level drops. Light level is GEAR Rating. There is no gear rating in Warframe. I could have a light level 1200 warlock in Destiny, and a light level 560 Titan. In warframe, Every playable "Class" aka warframe is the same MR as I am. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: My stance on current Bramma, is that it is still a strong and useful weapon. Is that so? That's interesting. Because by all of your accounts, the Bramma still should be the most powerful weapon in the game. See, one of us said that Ammo matters. One of said it didn't. I wonder why you aren't still saying the Bramma is Overpowered. Well. Since you don't think Ammo matters. Let's put the Bramma's ammo back at 13. We can keep the cluster bombs at 3. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: OP in non-steel path content? The answer is no. It's not debatable. The answer, is no. The Bramma has no efficient way to strip through armor, nor does the Hunter munitions scale enough to kill 2x the health. Nothing about the Bramma is debatable at this point. But please- continue to waste everyone's time. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You all seem to regard it as completely useless just to cry over the nerf That's because a weapon with no ammo, is useless. Do me a favor. Get your bramma. And try to kill something with 0 ammo. You claimed that it invalidated ALL other weapons. So if that's true? You don't need any other weapon then the Bramma. No secondary weapons, no Melee weapons, no warframe weapons, no pet weapons. Your argument is so dead, Nekros is desecrating it, in hopes he can get sniper ammo from it. 7 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: And that's fine, because now you need to actually make thoughtful load out choices in order to get that level of power for a primary. That was actually always the case. But somehow the concept of "The Meta" eludes you. (It's where something particular is popular, and people build it a particular way. It happens in every horde looter shooter game. Just like Destiny had the gjallerhorn, borderlands 2 had everything from the conference call to the norfleet, and Warframe had the Bramma, people were building those AoE weapons certain ways for maximum effect. You just aren't smart enough to put those pieces together- 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You had laughably stated that single target weapons are better than AoE ones because they are more ammo efficient. Except I was right then, and I'm right now. The only difference is you were forced to see you were wrong.The passage of time only proves I was right from the start, and everything you said was bogus. Did you ever manage to kill the Wolf of Saturn 6 with the Bramma? See, me and an entire team of Tenno tried when he invaded a regular content mission. Pre-nerf Bramma with 13 shots per tenno ran out of ammo- Imagine that. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: At this point, I really think you just lack the intellectual ability to discern what I'm saying. Nope- You got it backwards. You don't have the ability to consider you are wrong, or the implications that has. You have no ability to admit you are wrong, nor do you have any ability to come up with consistent arguments. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: I'll repeat this once again: those DPS values where calculated removing user error, and simulating perfect inputs. That's nice, sounds like an excuse for your completely flawed dps calculations. A terrible excuse at that. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Seriously, I don't even know in what way I can phrase it to make you understand. Let me break it down for you. You are a liar. And there's nothing you can do to change that I fundamentally understand that. See if you were honest, your logic would be consistent. Your logic, calculations, and arguments change constantly. This makes you either daft, or a liar. Seeing as neither are mutually exclusive, and you never admit to the problems in your argument? I am left to those conclusions. You have given me no reason to think otherwise. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: then waves them around like a flag in a petty attempt to prove the other wrong. Except those quotes ere honest proof that you are wrong, and you can't face up to it. A strong person can own up to mistakes and errors. You pretend you never said anything wrong- 😉 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: "The difference is that warframe's light levels aren't listed so people like you understand that this weapon is endgame". Mastery Rank Requirements aren't a gear score. Mastery Rank can't be lowered like gear score can be. Mastery Rank is progression that can never be lowered unless you restart the game. If I had platinum for every time you said something wrong? I'd be rolling in as much plat as the tennogen creators. That would be so nice. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Oh yeah, then let's release a big button that instantly kills everything on the map, no matter how far. Now this is a strawman- If you wanted a strawman argument- This is what it looks like. Quite a few people would actually enjoy a big red button that kills everything. Would actually make hard mode fun 😉 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Warframe's biggest appeal surely isn't the fun of experimenting with a vast and diverse armory of crazy and viable gear, no no, Let me fix that for you. Warframe's biggest appeal is the fun of experimenting with a vast and diverse armory of crazy and POWERFUL GEAR. Warframe is a third person Diablo esque game dude. Power is the biggest appeal of Warframe, and looting more powerful gear is the appeal. Just Diablo. Just like Destiny. Just like Borderlands 2. Nobody cares or enjoys the weak weapons. But you are one of the "diverse" snowflakes that claims he wants diverse options, but then ruins diversity by ruining outdated weapons like the Bramma bow- Hey buddy. You have a brain. Try using it. Dust off some cobwebs. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: forgetting the 200+ choices that are inevitably left behind because of power creep. Yes. Warframe is an MMO. Do you miss your mk-1 braton? Power creep comes with every expansion. Power creep is what has kept Warframe and Destiny alive. People get bored if every weapon has the stopping power of the Mk-1 Braton. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You still have to name one. Like the Rubico Prime? How about the redeamer prime? How about any Eidolon and sentient killer? How about any and every status proc weapon that can get more status procs off. The Bramma was never the best weapon. It was probably one of the best AoE. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: "Pre-nerf Bramma was the best primary by a large margin in regular play, and that was unhealthy for the variety of choices in the primary slot". Nope. Corrinth Prime with its Alternate fire that could do only 100k+ damage AoE could perform and can still perform the same thing. Having people excited for a new endgame weapon is the exact opposite of a bad thing. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: See, why should I consider options that were either non-existent or not part of the discussion from its inception? Because those options force you to confront the weaknesses in the weapon that you previously claimed didn't matter. Secondly, Pre-Nerf Bramma would be balanced in hard mode, and seeing its status as an end game weapon? People should BRING THE BEST WEAPONS AND GEAR to fight the HARDEST DIFFICULTY CONTENT. Now, the Bramma is ruined, because terrible opinions like yours- And the hard mode where the Bramma might have been a fun viable option is no longer viable- Shame you killed weapon diversity in this game- When hard mode comes out- Go ahead and have fun doing the corrupted missions with your Bramma. I'll really enjoy when you finally admit you've been wrong this entire time. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: The lato has a higher ammo count than 5, is it better than the Bramma? Nope. But the Strun Wraith is. So is the Stahlta. It's got an alternate fire that packs a punch close the Bramma's. Except the Stahlta has higher crit chance and damage 🙂 Maybe actually use good examples 🙂 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Surely, but that was never the point of this discussion. Frames are another different issue, and they too need massive rebalancing. Wrong, and you'll always be wrong on this point. Weapons, warframe powers, and melee always compete with each other. You need weapons that can compete with warframe powers, you need warframe powers that can keep up with weapons. Nobody in Destiny 2 would use grenades, or their guardian abilities if weapons did 5x-10x more damage. Likewise, players would ignore guardian powers if they weren't strong enough to be worth using. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You don't even know how slash procs work. Except I do. Using my Bramma, I take the full modded damage, multiply it by a crit and see what numbers I should get. Taking off ALL multishot mods, (Easier to know what's going if you only use one instance of damage.) My Bramma does 2,330.1 damage on impact, then 10,454.3 damage on explosion. If the impact causes a slash proc, it should 3,751.3 damage per slash proc. (This is the 2,330.1 damage x 4.6) then multiplying that by .35 and getting 3,751.3) If the explosion causes a slash proc, it should do 16831.423 damage per slash proc. Taking my Bramma against level 140 Corrrupted heavy eximus, I could never get a proc to do more then around 9k on body shots. Would be nice if you said something accurate every 10 posts or so. Something close to the truth. TL;DR your argument is weak, has been weak, and you are either too chicken to answer the questions I've asked, or you know you are wrong and avoiding them entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShonOfDawn Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I'll just stick to the factual: 8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Except that damage numbers can pop up once all the enemies are already dead. Using the map, and seeing when the bright glowing red mark is gone from the map is more accurate. What's your proof that damage indicators are delayed? Damage numbers appear in the exact moment damage is delivered. If that damage is fatal, the instant they pop up is the exact moment of death. Once again, you know nothing about base game mechanics. Secondly, the map is the inaccurate one. I went back and checked again, and the red dot lingers for a bit even after the last enemy is dead. But still, here's the proof for my kill times: Firstly, here's why the marker on the minimap is inaccurate: zoom in, the enemies are all dead, but red still lingers. As such, I have no specific frame in which the marker disappears to get a precise kill time: (On second thought: this might be more of a YouTube issue, than a game issue. Compression might make the dot linger because the map isn't moving) Here are the two instants where the last numbers appear. Lenz: frame 9 of second 34 Bramma: frame 18, second 1:21 You know, it isn't sufficient to just say "you are wrong, I'm right" to disprove someone. You need to produce counter evidence or uncover an underlying contradiction in the statement. Now, these are the kill times, they changed from last time because for the Lenz, I did not consider the slash proc which actually dealt the killing blow. I don't know what's up with the Bramma's time changing, but by all means, calculate kill times and post your frames, I'd be happy to take a look at them. Until you do, in your own test, Bramma did have twice the DPS. 8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Taking my Bramma against level 140 Corrrupted heavy eximus, I could never get a proc to do more then around 9k on body shots. Would be nice if you said something accurate every 10 posts or so. Something close to the truth. That's because eximus have innate 50% DR against all damage types. Including true damage. Armor DR is completely bypassed by slash procs. You absolute genius. For anyone still saying that the Bramma is level capped or doesn't have enough ammo to go beyond lvl120, here's some counter evidence. The build for Bramma is pretty standard, 2v formas, Serration, Split chamber, Point strike, vital sense, Cryo Rounds (could be swapped for primed with an extra forma), Malignant Force (Could be swapped for the 90%), Vigilante armaments, Hunter Munitions, and a rank 0 vigilante supplies in the exilus. The only thing this build really relies on is vacuum, so you'll se me reviving my Moa way more than necessary, which kills me once. (I really need to build it better for survivability). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protecttheplanet Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Imo my bramma is fine now. It lacks a bit of power but I dont have a perfect riven yet (cc dmg toxin no neg). With vigilante supplies I am fine when I kill like 2 enemies with my 5 shots. I would complain about d.nikanas and shedus dispo nerfs but bramma? Meh, it's fine really. Although they should readd the cluster bombs (iirc it's now 3 instead of 7?) when the option to adjust the visual effects of teammates gets added. I don't think it looks as fancy as it did before Sure it can't compete with melee weapons but that's a general primary problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShonOfDawn Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: you took a mission that constantly spawns hordes of enemies which is perfect for getting ammo Ok, then tell me, where does this "level cap" manifest itself? Because if it doesn't in survival, then it doesn't in ESO, defense, disruption, exterminate, excavation and interception as well, because they spawn enemies with very similar densities. What does this leave? All non-endless missions, which don't even have killing enemies as an objective. I took a survival specifically because it was the fastest way to make enemies scale up. And even then, it took a waste of 40 minutes of my life, for no additional reward, just to reach level 120, from a Kuva Requiem that already started at level 60. In normal missions, even if it existed, you'd never encounter this "level cap". It is a steel path issue at best, a game mode that is totally optional as it yields no power, and even then, you played with a god awful build, so I think there's massive room for improvement there. I'll test as soon as I get the steel path on console. 5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: why didnt you continue until you reached even higher levels Because you said that the cap was at 120. I knew that claim was absolutely ludicrous, so I went and tested. And lo and behold, the gun did fairly well. You don't seem to understand the consequences of your own claim; "Level cap of 120" means that at that level, the guns becomes totally worthless. That means, it is constantly out of ammo and doesn't kill a thing. That also means, it starts to struggle way before level 120, especially because enemy scaling has its steepest point at level 90, and after that, the curve flattens. Unfortunately my xbox stopped recording after ten minutes, I went up to the 60 minute mark, and with level 150 enemies, the gun was still doing fine. Yeah, it ran out of ammo once, but my claim is simply that the gun is far from useless, while yours is that the gun does become useless at level 120. That was proven false, against the toughest faction in the game, and level 120 is the highest level in which content is relevant, so I think the statement transitions pretty well to the rest of the game. 5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: and you stayed just below the level cap Hm, what? The video was from level 116 to 135. That's not "Just below", that's on and above. 5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: this is a farce, you didnt even try to go high level. I didn't need to. Your claim was that the level cap was 120, and I showed you that the gun doesn't even struggle at 120. Also, I honestly had no intention to waste time going for endurance. I hoped a survival sortie came around, but I wasn't lucky enough. 5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: Heres an idea, take off Primed Sure Footed, go play in a mission with open areas, then come back with some more "proof". You see, here's why your claim is completely nonsensical. Firstly, I didn't have Primed Sure Footed on. I used kinetic plating on gauss, which prevents status effects and knockdowns, trait that's accessible and present on many other frames (Titania, Atlas, Nezha, Rhino just to name a few). Secondly, you, as Kardas did, always put a million conditions on whoever tries to disprove your completely general claim. "Bramma has a level cap of 120", but whenever someone shows any evidence, the claim becomes "Bramma has a level cap of 120, but the mission must be non-endless, you must play without knockdown prevention, on an open map, blindfolded, with one hand, only six mods, extinguished dragon key, Fox only, Final Destination." You instantly lose credibility when your claim becomes invalid for half the game modes and any build that keeps the gear's weaknesses in mind. 5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: the point is your ignore general gameplay and how most people use the weapon If people play sub-optimally, should I conform and waste the potential of a piece of gear? Of course, if you draw comparisons with people who don't even know how to build a crit primary, then well, of course the Bramma is useless. And so is 50% of the arsenal. After all, you destroy nullifier bubbles with Bramma by directly shooting at them (instead of the ground, which one shots them, as seen in my video), so you are clearly the expert here. 5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: -If you play like you just did with groups of enemies in small hallways, yes the cap will be a higher, OF COURSE, because the bramma is AOE weapon and if you can hit multiple enemies all the time you will OF COURSE get more ammo back which makes the cap go higher, but instead of you recognizing that, you didnt even bother to stay in this mission to go higher level to reach the cap, you stayed just below it because that suits your "bramma OP" narrative. But this you seem to have avoided on purpose. If those things are so obvious, why didn't you mention them? You could have said "The Bramma has a level cap of 120, but only in these conditions". Instead, here you are making wild claims just to scream "nerf bad". I do not think the Bramma is op right now, I'm merely saying that it isn't useless as you seem to be implying. 5 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: Bramma does have a level cap due to ammo restriction, which is around level 120 and after that the weapon becomes useless, just because you went above that with equipment and mods perfect for it in a mission that spawned hordes of enemies where an AOE weapon shines best and gives you more ammo back, does not mean there is no level cap, it only means you pulled out every possible trick to go above it, nothing more, nothing less, but if you had continued you would have undoubtedly reached your cap for this specific mission as well, might have been 140, 150, we will never know because you stopped at 130. Pulled every possible trick... This is hilarious. You know how it would have looked like, had I pulled every trick? Firstly, I would have used a 5 forma Bramma with Primed Cryo Rounds and Infected Clip instead of Cryo Rounds and Malignant Force, giving me approximately 75% more raw damage. Plus, a beastly riven that compressed both Point Strike and Armaments, leaving a slot for ammo drum. A full Vigilante set on the frame, Primed Sure Footed on a Mirage, or hell, just protea/ammo pads to have infinite munition. Magus Anomaly to bunch enemies before shooting. There where multiple ways for me to actually enhance my gameplay, yet you have to nitpick for choosing survival, and using a way to prevent knockdown. Also, the very notion of a "level cap" means that whatever means I try to get above it, I simply can't. If by "pulling tricks" as you say, I can exceed it easily, then it means there was no cap to begin with at that level. I believe you enjoy the Bramma, otherwise you wouldn't be here criticizing the nerf. I, in fact, like the gun as well; I just thought that before its nerf, it was way too powerful and easy to use. I do not think the gun is OP now, the reduced ammo count and lower status potential put limitations on it. It is in your interest that there are ways to still make the weapon extremely powerful, so you can still enjoy it, isn't it? 8 hours ago, IIAc3sII said: Thank you for finally making a video, but Goddamn man, can't you see for yourself that you already ran out of ammo a few times and that you couldnt have continued for much longer, how can you pretend it has no ammo cap at this point... I ran out of ammo once, and in that same survival, ran out again some time after the end of the recording. But, running out of ammo doesn't mean the weapon is unusable, you have 2 other weapons for a reason. You literally have to kill 5 enemies with a melee, and can get back on a spree with the Bramma. I think this was the intended way to use the gun since the nerf, for it to have some downtime in exchange for power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: I'll just stick to the factual: You mean ignore every point that you can't disprove, cause you are too afraid?~ Yea. I thought so 🙂 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: What's your proof that damage indicators are delayed? The map. No enemies = red enemy markers on the map vanish. The numbers linger after enemies are dead. Do both of us a favor~ If you are going to ignore the most of my post cause you lost the argument? Don't bother replying- Or better yet? Just admit you are wrong and go on your way- Remember- Ammo doesn't matter 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 12 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: That's because eximus have innate 50% DR against all damage types. Including true damage. Don't think that's true- But here's something anyway to prove you are wrong- Strange how the same slash proc is 20k less on the corrupted heavy gunner- We know that the impact should do 656.4 damage X 5.9 damage before turning it into a slash proc. So you multiply it by .35 to get what the slash proc SHOULD be, and double it cause headshot. The impact should do 7k damage, or a 2k slash proc- So the radial attack is what made the slash proc- Once again- Imagine my surprise that everything you say is wrong 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robolaser Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Bramma's destructive power wasn't really the core issue. It was overly popular because 99% primaries are completely outclassed by abilities and melee, which gets boring quick. Sure it wasn't the most demanding weapon, but at least one had to roughly aim in the general direction of their enemies and even anticipate travel time a bit at longer ranges. Instead of just mindlessly pressing one button while whatching netflix. It proved that some people might be interested in using guns, or even bows in that case, when they provide an effective and fun alternative to melee and abilities in multiplayer, where a karak, dread or lex for example currently don't offer much opportunities to join the action (such weapons can be fun too, but in solo or premade with like-minded people). Again, DE chose to treat the symptoms, not the causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Ok, then tell me, where does this "level cap" manifest itself? Strawman- Its extremely easy to run out of Ammo when your maximum ammo is 5. For proof how easy it is to run out of ammo? Go take your bramma and go fight a lephantis with it. If you run out of Ammo with the Bramma fighting lephantis? Done. Over. You lose. Lephantis is regular content. If you can't kill Lephantis with the bramma alone? A regular low level boss? You lose. Good day sir. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You see, here's why your claim is completely nonsensical. Actually- We have quite a few reasonable claims- See, we like to poke enormous wholes in your arguments. You either completely ignore them, or pretend that situation doesn't exist. Again. You'll probably ignore the criticism, brush over it entirely, or pretend it isn't an issue 🙂 As you even mention the bramma for example doesn't have enough ammo to even break a nullifier's shield now- You will run out of ammo before you pop it- Despite this, you insist that the best thing to do is Compromise your warframe's safety to kill that enemy. This is neither smart nor optimal, as not all warframe's can ignore the stagger, and it puts you in a dangerous position since nullifier bubbles turn off all your abilities. It's a fantastic way to get yourself killed in hard mod! Go ahead and get yourself killed trying to use the Bramma there. I'm sure a level 130 nullifier with double the health totally won't make you regret that decision. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Of course, if you draw comparisons with people who don't even know how to build a crit primary, then well, of course the Bramma is useless. And so is 50% of the arsenal. Except that as I informed you before- Not everyone likes, uses, or has access to Hunter Munitions- Hunter Munitions is not required to make something viable- What you really mean to say is "I demand everyone play optimally even though Warframe is a casual game." Even though a vast amount of Warframe's weapons work just fine playing casually. Oh- and most MMO's have 50% of their weapons useless- It's what happens when new and better gear comes out- 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You see, here's why your claim is completely nonsensical. Firstly, I didn't have Primed Sure Footed on. I used kinetic plating on gauss, Shame Nullifiers bubble deactivate that- 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: You instantly lose credibility when your claim becomes invalid for half the game modes and any build that keeps the gear's weaknesses in mind. Except that there are times where you literally cannot fix the Bramma's weakness in certain situations- Spamming down ammo pads for lephantis isn't a good solution. Your logic, and everything you said belongs straight in the garbage. Hey, if you ever fight lephantis with the bramma, tell me how it goes. I'm sure other fights like Ambulas, Ruk, maybe the eidolon boss fight, Kril, and others just let the bramma really shine. 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: Pulled every possible trick... This is hilarious. You know how it would have looked like, had I pulled every trick? Firstly, I would have used a 5 forma Bramma with Primed Cryo Rounds and Infected Clip instead of Cryo Rounds and Malignant Force, giving me approximately 75% more raw damage. Interesting. Just a few posts before you said that replacing a 60/60 mod wouldn't make a difference. How funny that your logic is so blatantly inconsistent. I'll let you in on a little hint. If your logic is inconsistent; and you change your argument? It means you were wrong~ 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: I do not think the Bramma is op right now, I'm merely saying that it isn't useless as you seem to be implying. So we can confirm that all of your old posts that said ammo didn't matter was 100% wrong now? We can confirm that where you said only dps matter is wrong now, and that without a shadow of a doubt, The Bramma's damage isn't a problem. Yes, the Bramma is useless. There are only literally a dozen situations where the Bramma is useless. Steel Path, Eidolons, Nullifier bubbles, Archwing, Lephantis, Wolf of Saturn Six, Tyl Regor, Ropolyst, 8 hours ago, (XB1)ShonFr0st said: I, in fact, like the gun as well; I just thought that before its nerf, it was way too powerful and easy to use. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now- Nothing about the gun has changed. It's damage hasn't changed. It has less cluster bombs to apply effects, but against single targets, or against heavily grouped enemies, the clusters don't hit anyways. Every, last thing you have said has been wrong. Every last thing. I will burrow these words into your head until you understand that. And steel path will always prove that. Steel path was content made for the endgame weapons of warframe. Yet the bramma is entirely useless in steel path for 3 reasons #1 INCONSISTENT. Hunter munitions doesn't always proc, slash proc is inconsistent, and for the tougher enemies doesn't always kills. #2 LOW AMMO. EVERY enemy has 2x the health +100 level. Some enemies in steel path have 6x the health of normal. A level 140 corrupted heavy gunner has something like 12 million effective health. The Bramma doesn't have the ammo to kill this single enemy. #3 Insufficient Status Chance. The Bramma doesn't have the status chance it needs to be able to compete with other weapons. Low armor stripping, low viral procs. The Bramma is only marginally less powerful from the cluster bomb change. It's main damage is untouched. The RELATIVE dps is still the same. If you think the Bramma is FINE NOW?It was always fine. There's nothing wrong with the Bramma being powerful and easy to use.Let me explain to you just exactly why everything you think, and feel is wrong. Literally everything. So people like you want EVERY weapon in the game to be viable. #1 this isn't possible in an MMO like game where players get better gear, weapons, and abilities over time. This is just like Destiny, Borderlands 2, or Diablo where CERTAIN WEAPONS are always left behind. It's just a fact. So a new weapon comes out, its stronger version of an older outdated weapon. Everyone gets excited, they try it out, it becomes meta because it feels good to use, its powerful, and its one of the new endgame weapons. Then you nerf it, ruin it, and you make bows not viable, as the STRONGEST two bows have ammo pools of 5 or 6 ammo each. Somebody made this analogy, and its accurate. You have a city full of buildings. One day, somebody makes the tallest most beautiful building. It's the most functional, and people use it more then other buildings. So you tear it down because people liked it too much. You keep doing this until every building is ugly, awful, and terrible. This is the mentality you have. You don't make other buildings better, you just ruin things for being too good. Sorry, your mentality and everyone who has a mentality like yours is borderline Moronic. And this most hilarious part? You can't even admit you are wrong, dude. You look at its reduced ammo count and you probably go "I was right the whole time." NO, you weren't. You were wrong this entire time, in fact. You never own upto the fact that this weapon is completely ruined for endgame and normal gameplay for it requires you to try to fix how annoying it is to use now. You have to have no joke, 3 different ways of getting ammo. If your carrier dies, the weapon requires you to manually pick up ammo. No other weapon in the game is this stingy for ammo, and you are too stubborn to admit your opinion is 100% cancer. And that's the facts. But please- Continue to try to ignore the numerous ways you are wrong. I look forward to seeing your reply, and you gloss over each and every way you were wrong. Interesting side note. It's always funny to me how all my enemies call me Kardas- Makes it easy to see where people stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShonOfDawn Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: The impact should do 7k damage, or a 2k slash proc- So the radial attack is what made the slash proc- Once again- Imagine my surprise that everything you say is wrong 🙂 I'll let you in on a little secret, both a heavy gunner and a corrupted heavy gunner have the same damage reduction at level 140 - 96,51%. So, even if armor reduced slash procs, which it doesn't, because slash procs deal true damage and scale off modded damage + critical modifiers, you'd see the same results on both enemies. It's easy to see the reason of the discrepancy: on the heavy gunner, you got an orange crit slash proc with the radial, and a yellow crit slash proc with the direct; on the corrupted heavy gunner, you got an orange crit slash proc with the direct, and a yellow crit slash proc with the radial. Of course, the radial crit brings more damage, so here you have the difference. No armor involved. But no, I'm the one who's always wrong. Also, would you look at that. Against the heavy gunner, 2 bomblets hit (34 and 20 dmg), against the Corrupted, all 3 hit (23, 28, and 28 dmg). But our lord and savior UltraKardas says that 1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: The Bramma is only marginally less powerful from the cluster bomb change. Yeah, because having 4 less instances of damage, per arrow (so 12 less on a 3 arrow hit) that can Proc viral and slash for upwards of 100% more damage to health isn't a nerf in damage, not at all. Quote The map. No enemies = red enemy markers on the map vanish. The numbers linger after enemies are dead. I've already shown you that it isn't the case because of YouTube's video compression, the red lingers after death because the map is static, YouTube doesn't update the pixels because there is not enough movement. So it is unreliable as there is no clear indicator of death. Yes, damage numbers do linger after death, but they appear in the exact moment damage is delivered. If that damage is lethal, meaning that those numbers are the last damage indicators to appear, and no more appear after that, then the instant in which they become visible on the screen is the instant of death. 1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: See, we like to poke enormous wholes in your arguments. You either completely ignore them, or pretend that situation doesn't exist. Again. You'll probably ignore the criticism, brush over it entirely, or pretend it isn't an issue 🙂 Enormous holes? Where? Where is the evidence that defies these two claims? "Pre-nerf Bramma was the best primary by a margin in most content" and "Post-nerf Bramma is a usable weapon in most content" You just keep rehashing what has already been said, and to which I've already responded in my previous posts. You make wild claims, I counter them, you ignore the counter, and keep making those same wild claims. "Bramma isn't effective against bosses" Bosses were out of the discussion a very long time ago, almost from its inception. The only relevant boss in the game currently is Eidolons, and even that is debatable. They comprise a very niche part of content. And their meta is extremely tight because they have immunity to status and radial damage. For anything else, Bramma dominated unchecked. And that "Everything else" is 95% of the game's content. "Bramma can't do status/crit/heal/x/y/z better than X weapon" That does not matter when enemies are dead. And as all our tests have shown, Bramma is pretty damn good at making enemies dead. The combination of its ease of use, high radial damage, numerous damage instances, spammability, lack of LoS checks made it far outperform any other primary. You still have to produce evidence that a single primary, unassisted, could perform better than pre-nerf Bramma. The nerf removed two components, the spammability, and the damage instances, making attention to ammo economy a requirement for using the bow effectively. "If you said ammo didn't matter back then, but you say ammo matters now, you are an hypocrite" Tell me, if today I made the claim "Inaros doesn't care for the damage he takes" and tomorrow DE nerfed his health from 9k to 1k, would that make me an hypocrite because now, suddenly, damage matters for Inaros? This is the exact same situation. The conditions surrounding that statements have completely changed for the Bramma in particular. Back then, when Bramma had 15 reserves and a 10 ammo pick up, plus full benefits from ammo mutations, ammo did not matter. DE nerfed its ammo capacity and pick up rate so severely precisely because ammo is incredibly abundant in the game, and because their aim was to make the ammo economy of the weapon a weakness for an otherwise flawless weapon. Does that weakness make the weapon unusable? No, as my video has shown. With a completely regular build and some care, you can circumvent the limitation, but it still requires the player of some conscious thought. "Bramma doesn't work in steel path" You seem to be such an expert on steel path, considering that you don't even have access to it. Firstly, steel path is a completely optional game mode that yields no gameplay-affecting rewards that can't be farmed elsewhere, and has a totally different meta than regular play. Secondly, the only evidence supporting that claim is a video of a capture mission played inefficiently and with an ineffective build. "Nullifiers are the bane of Bramma's existence, you run out of ammo or have to enter the bubble to kill them" Both those strategies are wrong. If you had read my previous post with a decent amount of attention, and had watched my video, you would have noticed that the best strategy against nullifier isn't shooting at the bubble, nor entering it. Considering that a nullifier bubble takes a minimum of 5 consecutive instances of 400 damage to be destroyed, a single shot of post nerf-bramma, having from 8 to 12 damage instances depending on multishot, aimed at the ground right outside the bubble, can instantly pop it, if the cluster bombs don't land too far away. You need 2 shots maximum to deal with a nullifier, from a safe distance. And, as the video shows, enemies are rigged to stand inside the bubble, so most of the time, you get a pretty big return for the ammo investment. 1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: Interesting. Just a few posts before you said that replacing a 60/60 mod wouldn't make a difference. How funny that your logic is so blatantly inconsistent. Once again, taken completely out of context. In the context of the Lenz versus Bramma, I said: "If both weapons have a 90% and a 60/60, both weapons have a total of +150% elemental damage. If I were to switch the Lenz's 60/60 with another 90%, I would do the same on the Bramma, leading to both weapons having a total of +180%. Which wouldn't change the COMPARATIVE damage between the two. Their difference in DPS would remain the exact same." The raw of both weapons would certainly increase, but their relative DPS would stay the same. In that context, that of a comparison, what mattered was precisely the relative difference. In this case, showing that the weapon is useful, what matters is the absolute power. Those are completely different situations, but of course you are on a witch hunt to find mistakes because you can't produce anything convincing. 1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: So people like you want EVERY weapon in the game to be viable. #1 this isn't possible in an MMO like game where players get better gear, weapons, and abilities over time. Completely inaccurate, and a misrepresentation of my stance. I've already responded to this criticism. I do not want all weapons to be equal, I don't want the mk1 braton to compete with MR14+ weapons, I want all weapons in the same bracket of mastery to perform in a comparable way. I already explained this in my previous post, but the Kuva Bramma had more damage, more range, more fire rate, more crit, and more damage instances than both the Kuva Tonkor and the Kuva Ogris for no tradeoff whatsoever. The existence of the Bramma itself invalidated two weapons that have the same exact method of acquisition, and the same exact mastery requirement. The Kuva Bramma existing made pursuing those two weapon a completely worthless endeavor, except for mastery. That is what we should avoid for the health of the game. 1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said: So a new weapon comes out, its stronger version of an older outdated weapon. Everyone gets excited, they try it out, it becomes meta because it feels good to use, its powerful, and its one of the new endgame weapons. "Outdated" by what standards? If the current weapons become outdated, that is because there are new challenging enemies that are too strong for our gear, so a new set of powerful weapons is released to deal with those enemies. In warframe this never happens. New, stronger weapons are released, but the enemies in all relevant content stay the same. This is simply called power creep, and it is way more dangerous of a mentality than balancing the outliers. Pursuing power creep means invalidating all existing content, making combat shallow and uninteresting because everything dies in a breeze, which in turn entails massive balance changes to enemies and weapons when the situation becomes unbearable, only for all of this to repeat itself in a perpetual cycle of releasing "better options" just for the sake of having "better options", and then having to buff all of the other weapons when they become useless for new players, and then buffing the enemies so they don't die in one shot, inevitably reaching the same status as if those "better options" were never released to begin with, or were nerfed comparatively to other guns. It is inefficient, and it leads to burnout for players and developers. Instead of doing that, the devs should focus on releasing enemies and content that favors specialization and requires multiple specializations to work together, so that we can have horizontal progression in various, useful niches, instead of an endless and unhealthy vertical progression that invalidates previous content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanholic7 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Wow, such a fat thread about this bow. I dunno, after nerf it feels meh. Much less dmg/aoe, very clunky ammo problems (cant shoots from one spot, you need always run to grab ammo)...why even use this then?=( Sadface. I would prefer my secura penta if i want aoe dmg =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)UltraKardas Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said: Yes but Ive been thinking that it might just be better to not respond to him at all anymore, Perhaps. But I'm the most stubborn person on the planet alive. At this point, he's wasting his own time more then anything else. Everyone is telling him he's wrong- It's a blatant obvious fact at this this point. No other weapon in warframe fires 20% of your ammo a shot, without something to help get your ammo back. The Lenz has built in ammo conversion, while the Bramma straight up has ammo reduction. Lotus help the man who has his sentinel destroyed and has to constantly look for ammo pick ups. I think that anyone who thinks the Bramma is fine now, should be forced to use it, with no carrier, no pets, or anything and manually pick up ammo till they change their mind, or DE unnerfs the Bramma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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