[The Outdated Parkour Thread] It Finally Happened! (Voice Your Opinion In The Poll!)

[Aure7]

NEW THREAD FOR THE 2.0 UPDATE ----> https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/509059-parkour-feedback-thread-20/

 

Straw poll to see what you guys think: http://strawpoll.me/5082938

 

Below is outdated, pre U17 feedback but parts of it still apply today.

Part 1 of this thread focused on animations -->  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/116872-the-grand-thread-for-animation-and-parkour-improvements-and-fixes-with-gifs/

Very relevant topic (and video) about Indie approach to procedural animations  --> https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/245184-indie-approach-to-procedural-animation-clever-ways-to-animate-and-how-this-relates-to-wf/#entry2850133

 

TL;DR:

current state of warframe:

STICKY PARKOUR NEEDS TO GO. Ninjas move smoothly, quickly overcoming obstacles with sleek motion and accuracy. Currently it is clunky, unreliable, unsatisfying and overshadowed by other weird forms of propulsion. (AKA coptering and directional melee). Sprint speeds and stamina consumption should be improved. Players should have a precise and reliable control over when they want to stop their motion using the enviroment and when they want to preserve (and build up) their momentum and keep the flow of movement to their desired direction.

 

Let tenno move fast and far with acrobatic parkour, instead of melee attacks meant to deal damage. It is entirely possible to bring new maneuvers and systems in place of aerial melee and copter to let players jump great distances just like they currently can with melee attacks.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

on directional melee (also fits to coptering):

Wearing_socks says: "As it stands, directional melee has completely removed all need for any of the existing parkour elements. White streaks on the wall that show parkour is possible but they can be bypassed with directional melee. Using directional melee in these cases instead of parkour allows for angular travel, not like parkours vertical or horizontal only, faster travel, unlike parkour which is slower than even sprinting, and quicker recovery, unlike parkour which forces you into one direction for the entirety of the wallrun. Parkour is slow and unrewarding. Directional melee beats it out in every category."

 

Not only it provides loads of weird momentum, it doesn't function as good as it could for actual aerial melee purposes.

If parkour got better and therefore provided movement power similar to directional melee, DE should definitively tweak dir melee since it provides loads of unnecessary flight that just takes away your time and control.

Currently it is pretty hard to hit a flying enemy because they are usually moving and directional melee sends you off a long path of which actual melee part is very tiny and short. Also the actual swing often misses the target in front of you. DE wanted it to help "get to places" but ironically they did it so well that directional melee is now worse for actual aerial melee.

Every time you do it, it is helping you to "get to places" instead of killing flying enemies. Thanks... I guess? Wasn't parkour supposed to be used to "get to places"? I guess it's a wrong game, you have to swing your melee to move around here.

So basically we have this (just imagine it slower):

And I am suggesting this:

this GIF covers a melee while player is stationary in air

Falling down instantly would mean you can instantly get back to action and control your character. If player was previously in air and in quick motion, this attack would boost you where you're aiming but wouldn't add any extra momentum, leaving your speed and previous direction unchanged.That quick burst forward would ensure attacks are responsible and do their job. If enemy is further away, (hopefuly improved) parkour would be used to get closer and THEN initiate this attack mid air.

 

...there's also more on coptering and butt-slipping further down.

 

And why still bother with traditional parkour? First of all it is fun for a lot of people (no matter how much you disagree). Secondly I think it is crucial for warframe devs to embrace parkour mechanics since It is another great aspect that can highlight the game in the generic shooter crowd. Melee (even though still not as good as it could be) or things like blocking, stealth, sliding are some of these aspects that adds up to the overall originality. In the end core gameplay is still pretty bland and only really spiced up by interesting warframe mechanics and could be spiced up with advanced AI, new challenges and... something like extremely good parkour!

 

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Much needed fixes:

 

1) Momentum from powerful moves or abilities like directional melee, tailwind, front flip (slide jump), super jump, wall jump does not disappear as you would expect when hitting obstacles (even ceilings). It often simply makes you stuck to a wall or ceiling until this imaginary momentum runs out.

The gif example is showing what happens when you hit something and then have space to continue moving. It proves that momentum indeed does not get removed after a collision and can even send you further if you clear your way.

This is even worse when you are pushed into a wall and essentially immobilized. I am all for conservation of momentum but it should only be felt when landing (and less than it is now) with lots of horizontal speed so you don't come to a full stop immediately and can't do very sharp turns.

 Momentum preserves on ledge-grabs and teleports you forward.(The ledge grab was fixed)

 

 

2) Lower the amount of "auto roll". It triggers from very tiny jumps and when running downstairs if you're holding sprint button.  Currently it works most of the time but...

Auto rolls still activate when you aim while in the air, even when you do it very briefly and height is low.  tiny jumps and very brief aims shouldn't trigger roll as it sends you forward unintentionally.

Ideally players should be able to decide themselves whether they want to preserve their speed and roll when landing or land and stay in spot like we can now when landing straight down.

 

 

3) Game is sometimes bad at detecting irregular walls (like tree trunks or rocks) when doing vertical wall-runs. Your character often gets stuck, gets up only after several tries or doesn't get up at all even though visually it looks absolutely possible. (examples include more places than seen in this gif, it is often probably due to bad collision meshes in levels).

 

4) Vaulting should keep the momentum you had before doing it. (means you'll get further and over longer obstacles)

this means that you will land just a meter forward when doing the vault from standing or walking. (saw a lot of complaints on the forums about this) and you would keep your regular sprint speed on vault maneuver and propel yourself forward further away as you would expect from so much momentum.

 

5) Vault is horrible on anything bigger than fence or railing. It needs to preserve your sprinting momentum and vault over much longer obstacles (with faster animation).

You can see that most of the time you end up climbing on top of them and then immediately falling down with a roll. I'd really wish these "space ninjas" would be able to vault over those with one, single motion. It would make perfect sense.

Currently doing vault while sprinting feels like a brief stop to your mobility and it feels worse than just plain jumping into the distance.

 

6) There needs to be improvements to ledge grab detection, ideally it would be a separate "grab" key discussed below.

Currently you often end up falling to misery even though you chained a beautiful combo and ended up just at the right height near the ledge. It just doesn't grab some times for some reason. Although I can confirm that with zephyr it is often because you're facing the wrong way and it won't let you turn to where you want to grab.

 

7) Valkyr's Ripline can sometimes feel a little odd. I understand it's simply a nudge towards something, but the flight speed and how it suddenly vanishes feels weird because you'd expect a very sudden tug and then flight with inertia.

It seems it is programmed to send you flying just the right amount so player lands above the grapple point, but it is a little off the actual physics. Current directional melee is much closer to what I expected ripline to be. If it was like that, I'd allow a lot more exciting movement.

 

8) Rolls to the sides and back flip (sprint button tap when aiming) have unnecessary pause at the end which locks you into spot.

Following overall smooth movement in warframe, these rolls should give player freedom to move earlier, or at least preserve momentum. Now it stops you even though you usually want to keep going as soon as animation finishes.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Further improving it with new additions and overhauls:

 

Jump key should be "grab" key when in mid-air, working similarly to assassin's creed where you'd only grab onto something if you are holding it. For example you'd slide down walls to stop yourself when holding it. Check 5th example.

 

Moving around should feel natural and should flow smoothly if level geometry is jagged. There should also be less of these "magical" momentum gains so player would be encouraged to use environment to kick off and run on instead of just flying. However directional melee is a good excuse if done right.

 

so more specifically...

1) The distinction between vertical and horizontal wallrun needs to be removed when player is not shooting or aiming. See below for a good example from "Overgrowth"

notice how you can change your wallrun direction here. By rotating the camera you can control the angle of wallrun and also your jump direction. In other words it's not sticky and that's how it should be in this "space ninja" game too. This would vastly improve our mobility. If player decides to shoot or aim, the character could simply continue running in some sort of general direction (probably straight forward) or in a direction player was previously running.

Current tilesets already include places which would be much easier to navigate with an angled wallrun and better walljumps mentioned below in 3rd example.

 

 

2) Wallruns needs better chaining from wall to wall or to other surfaces with no delay on the animations. (These GIF examples suck to be honest, but I hope everyone understands the point)

Now it feels like sticking to a magnet until you release your jump key and catapult forward.

red arrows shows how you would expect to run smoothly (with no delay when switching walls) Although in the end you can see how it messes it up and adds a delay on the animation. It would be much better if character inherited its velocity from when the wall run was initiated instead of coming to stop and then accelerating again.

As posted by Mohfuu and also discussed more on PART 1 thread.

And also a perfect example of how terrible wallrun can sometimes feel, this also connects to wall-jumps:

 posted in https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/124166-are-you-tired-of-uncontrollable-parkour/ by Keetsune.

 

 

3) Make wallrun jumps more controllable. Kicking from the wall to perform a jump is fine but it should be less

powerful and aimable. It should be similar to what meleeing from a wallrun currently is.

After some thinking, I realized that jumping from a wall while touching it just very briefly is very ninja-like and if would make sense to be able to jump anywhere you're facing with the camera. But once again currently it's nothing but a uncontrollable catapult seen in the GIFS below the spoiler.

More pictures in the spoiler with theoretical wall jumps that WOULD BE possible with this controllable kick of the wall.

it would act similarly to what we have now, but instead with direction you can actually change. You'd kick of the wall where it says "jump" and "run" shows how you would probably run up to that wall.

 

I know some of these are currently executable with wall-catapult, but there's great chance you'll shoot by and miss.

 

 

here you can see how hard it is to finish a wall run smoothly without triggering the wall-catapult or a roll. It just goes wrong every time. What if you simply want to continue running on the floor?

 

I'd be much simplier if we could simply aim towards ground while wallrunning to shift back to normal run. (if we had controllable wallruns)

And even though I am against current momentum you gain during wallrun jumps, I see that many existing tiles require them. So charging it up, and thus requiring you to run for a while, would perform a jump you see today, or at least close to that.

Also the increase on wall jump power with fast frames + sprint mods is too damn high! I am using that to gain more sprint speed, maybe faster animations but I don't want to be catapulting myself every time I touch a wall. At least let us control it.

 

 

4) You should be able to jump freely from vertical wallruns and slides. Meaning you jump wherever you're facing with the camera. (connects to last suggestion)

      for example to the side like this

I can't stress enough how many times I needed to jump to the side and I just couldn't, even though the ledge was right there.

 

 

5) Ability to slide down walls from a jump. Possibly by introducing "space" key as a grab key to grab ledges and walls.

picture says it all. Basically currently you can only start a wallrun from a jump but in some occasions all you want is to stick to the wall and slide down slowly.

This could also work for angled falls. So players who are falling diagonally by a wall could grab it briefly to reduce both vertical and horizontal momentum. (basically using the wall as a brake for the fall)

 

 

6) Jump type depending on whether you hold spacebar or tap it.

Tapping the jump key while sprinting (using this vaults would send you further)

Quickly holding and releasing the jump key would result in a high jump.

Doing vault with this "high" jump would result with stepping ON the object and kicking yourself high up like this

For these I had to create my own examples using handy Pivot animator.

Notice how holding the jump key for jump would be similar to what we have now: a jump somewhere high up.

tapping the jump key would result in a long jump with much more force, meant to get over a gap or a small obstacle with a vault. Once again, this long jump would greatly improve our flow of movement.

 

 

7) As been requested for a long time - an ability to counter knockbacks and staggers depending on your reflexes. If I am correct, blocking will always work to prevent knockdowns now and dodging is way easier. But a quick reflex based button tap would be nice for quicker recovery as you fall down.

 

 

8) Constant and quick butt sliding, coptering and aerial melee attacks used to move around are all breaking the feel of the game.

Veteran players get used to tapping crouch key to repeatedly gain free momentum and spam various melee attacks (which are usually meant to deal damage). The result is never something that looks fluid and satisfying. Ninjas are awkwardly slipping on every step and spinning with their melee weapons.

DE should reconsider changes to sprint speeds and stamina system. Sprinting in relays should be possible. Stamina can still be limiting for melee attacks, blocking and powerful maneuvers, but should work in a way to encourage sprinting and skillful player traversal using intuitive movement instead of melee attacks. 

For example, sprinting could gain a little speed increase over some time, so for example you would gain bonus speed after 3 seconds of sprinting so that it would be faster than slipping because you would need to regain maximum speed after every slip.

numbers should be minimal, just for the very purpose of making sprinting the fastest way to travel long and flat distances.

more in depth about this https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/145178-sprinting-should-gradually-become-tiny-bit-faster-after-some-sprinting-and-how-everyone-will-be-happy/#entry1720451

Also here's another discussion https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/293073-why-do-people-dislike-coptering/

 

9) There's potential for cooperative moves. They can be optional (act as alternatives to other methods) but very rewarding for coordinated players.

As suggested by BladeBehindTheSmile: "I think that leg-ups, and other such team tactics would also be a good addition to that list, as it would encourage further player interaction during missions."

OP provided a gif of his own but I decided to create more acrobatic version of it.

As you can see it could totally be powerful, extreme and not your ordinary human maneuver. But there has to be a strong physics core, then it feels right. Tenno kicking of air is absurd.

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Do you agree with these? Do you think this is worth their time? Do you also want to see a perfect game animation and parkour wise?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Aure7

[Dreykan]

Once again, awesome suggestions, bumpin'

Edited October 13, 2013 by Dreykan

[lautalocos]

+1

 

i might be wrong here, but i think that the wallruning can´t be as good as the one from overgrowth because of engine limitations. it can be way better, but as good as overgrowth? im not so sure

[Aure7]

+1

 

i might be wrong here, but i think that the wallruning can´t be as good as the one from overgrowth because of engine limitations. it can be way better, but as good as overgrowth? im not so sure

I don't think engine would limit such thing. Even if it is hard, don't you agree that it's worth the effort? 

[Thelonious]

You got my +1.

 

I would bind holding space while in the air to ledge-grabing, to KEEP MY FRAME FROM GRABING EVERY FRIGGING LEDGE AROUND WHEN I REALLY, REALLY, DON'T WANT TO.

 

This is soooooo annoying. They need to make it active, not passive. Binding it to crouch is an alternative, but is way more complicated to perform.

 

Although it would also need a lot of work from the level-design staff to make sure parkouring is fluid through the room.

How many times did you find a perfect parkour spot, only to realize there's something in the way of your trajectory?

[lautalocos]

I don't think engine would limit such thing. Even if it is hard, don't you agree that it's worth the effort? 

of course, if they can do it they definetely should. im just not sure if it´s possible.

 

the thing is that the creator of oveergrowth is basically a coding genius. he made his first game engine when he was a child. he made overgrowth engine after with all the wallruning and movement from the ground. i dont know if the evolution engine (warframe engine) can do the same, but i hope it can

[Hayden11121]

+1

 

Parkour is one of the best things in this game, the fact that every new addition is buggy compared to the basics, it kinda sucks.

 

And wall vaulting off a wallrun is also one of the most annoying things in this game

[lautalocos]

You got my +1.

 

I would bind holding space while in the air to ledge-grabing, to KEEP MY FRAME FROM GRABING EVERY FRIGGING LEDGE AROUND WHEN I REALLY, REALLY, DON'T WANT TO.

 

This is soooooo annoying. They need to make it active, not passive. Binding it to crouch is an alternative, but is way more complicated to perform.

 

Although it would also need a lot of work from the level-design staff to make sure parkouring is fluid through the room.

How many times did you find a perfect parkour spot, only to realize there's something in the way of your trajectory?

that sounds good to me too

[Aure7]

Updated with a couple of more suggestions, one taken from the forums. I'll do something about that "too much ledge-grabing" thing too.

[Anarties]

Good work, we keep this up and we wont auto roll after falling 3 inches!!

[lautalocos]

Good work, we keep this up and we wont auto roll after falling 3 inches!!

we can dream, right?

[Damageplay]

I hope DE finds this thread. Parkour really needs some work.

[Guest]

BUMPADGNOISHPOEIHGMSHNIF"{BP"IRMHOWMBWRB:OKDB

 

thiS NEDDD BE HAPPEN

[Relkin]

Please don't nerf wall run jump T_T I like carried momentum too, there isn't a good reason that I can see to do that it'll just slow us down and make us more derpy when whe're space ninjas not cole from infamous. 

 

I like some of your melee stuff in that other thread though, although you're noticeably lacking any kind of contact feedback for the melee which currently only the kogake appears to have.

[MercuriaI_Temper]

I definitely like this idea. I would like DE to take a second glance at these maneuvers, but before that, they should make adjustments to the environments to facilitate them more evenly. As it stands, there are only a handful of locations that wallrunning is actually beneficial (specifically that one hallway with the lava floors). I think the Tenno should be able to head to Earth at some point, and see the Grineer infested ruins of our shattered world. At least there, we won't have to have a roof over our heads, while still maintaining a sense of verticality for our Space Ninjas to exercise their abilities on.

[Aure7]

Please don't nerf wall run jump T_T I like carried momentum too, there isn't a good reason that I can see to do that it'll just slow us down and make us more derpy when whe're space ninjas not cole from infamous. 

 

I like some of your melee stuff in that other thread though, although you're noticeably lacking any kind of contact feedback for the melee which currently only the kogake appears to have.

I think flying over the map like a rocket is derpy. Besides I was suggesting a chargeable jump, so you'd still be able to reach similar distances. Just not by touching a wall for a 0.1 second.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Aure7

[OblivionNecroninja]

For frick's sake, SONIC games have figured out the "tap jump for short hop, hold for big jump" thing.

SONIC games, DE.

You know, the until-very-recently poster child of terrible terrible 3d platformer design?

Get on this.

[VodkaGR]

One of the best suggestion threads i have seen.Every single thing you wrote was just on my mind about what the parkour system needs.

Right now it is nowhere near to be considered playable

[Lord.Finster]

+1

Nothing can get momentum mid-air unless it's propelled.

No movement should be faster than straightup running.

If I grab to a ledge my character should use its momentum to flip or vault over the ledge I'm grabbing on.

The distinction between vertical and horizontal wallrunning needs to go and should be replaced by a freerunning system allowing for finely tuned changes during the wallrun.

Autorolling has become a nightmare. Replace it by a short standing slide that decelerates the character.

[alocrius]

DE should have been working on core mechanics like this the whole time, but as we have learned DE got EVERYTHING right first time out the gate.  Thats why they haven't had to update gameplay or mechanics since launching their "beta"(beta implies they will improve the game).  Love these ideas though.

Edited November 8, 2013 by alocrius

[Orcot]

I agree, acrobatic movement in the game needs improvement, I doubt it'll be fixed anytime soon though, but I'm sure if we talk about it enough DE will start to notice.

[Aure7]

PHEEEEW. Just overhauled the entire thread and made overall changes to BOTH threads. Please keep comments and suggestions coming. Maybe something you disagree with? I've been rushing this edit so possible mistakes, sorry!

[shut]

I'd like to see this implemented for sure. As much as I love the parkour system our game has, it just doesn't feel nearly as smooth as it could be.

[Aure7]

DE should have been working on core mechanics like this the whole time, but as we have learned DE got EVERYTHING right first time out the gate.  Thats why they haven't had to update gameplay or mechanics since launching their "beta".  Love these ideas though.

sounds is being revised all the time and it looks like such thing would be ignored as the game develops. Why couldn't they prove they're awesome and care more about animations and parkour? Like POLISH THE CRAP OUT OF IT

[notionphil]

 

Do you agree with these? Do you think this is worth their time? Do you also want to see a perfect game animation and parkour wise?

 

Yes, yes and yes.

 

Also, the next time someone says

 

"buuut the dev's can't go back and fix bugs, what is the art/animation team gonna do, sit around doing nothing?"

 

I'll send them here.