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Els236

Syndicates Revisit / Syndicates 2.0

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I have seen many topics on the sub-reddit and here about reworking or revisiting the 6 main syndicates over the last few years and I believe it is high-time to bring this topic up for discussion once again. As it stands right now, the 6 main Syndicates, being Arbiters/Suda/Meridian - Loka/Veil/Perrin, are nothing more than glorified loot dispensers and/or an RNG annoyance when they send a death squad to kill you in a mission. 

 

I honestly have barely an issue with the "loot dispenser" nature of them, apart from the fact that a lot of trading is required to get all the mods and/or all the weapons from each Syndicate and it is also a little annoying that without restarting afresh, it is impossible to get every Captura Scene/Orbiter Stencil/Syndicate Syandana. 

 

Now, my main issue with Syndicates as they are right now stems from a Lore/Plot perspective. When you start Warframe, you can essentially pick 3 Syndicates to start grinding up. Either the trio of Arbiters/Suda/Meridian OR Loka/Veil/Perrin. As you progress however, this ends up becoming a lore plot-hole:

  • Despite New Loka supposedly hating my guts and refusing to work with me, they still ask for my help during the quest for Titania, and after completion the leader of New Loka exclaims that they might need to revisit their ideals and their doctrine and that they will push for change within the Syndicate. This dialogue exchange is forgotten not two seconds after I return to my Orbiter. "We hate you, will never work with you and we will continue to send death squads after you". Excuse me, what?
  • Despite Red Veil hating me and calling me an enemy/target, they still ask for my help during the quest for Harrow. Again, there is a dialogue exchange that happens with the leader that is forgotten as soon as I leave the relay.
  • You don't need to know what I'm going to say about the Perrin Sequence in regards to the Nidus quest.

 

There isn't really the same problem if you are already sided with Loka/Veil/Perrin, but there are still inconsistencies with being "enemies" of Arbiters/Suda/Meridian:

  • The Arbiters of Hexis could despise you and refuse to offer you aid, yet they are more than willing to let you partake in Arbitrations and spend Vitus Essence in their sector of the relay.
  • Cephalon Suda is a key plot-point in the quest for Octavia, but if the player is "hated" by Suda, why would they help her and why would she help you obtain the Mandachord? Also, despite helping her, she still sends death squads after the player.
  • Steel Meridian play a huge role in the Defection game-mode, the rescuing of Clem and players will visit Steel Wake to spend their Riven slivers. Why would Steel Meridian allow "hated" players to enter their super-secret base of operations?

 

My "revisit" to the Syndicates could be multiple different changes:

1 - Once the player has helped an "enemy" Syndicate, by completing their respective quest, they are now allowed to grind-out that Syndicate without any penalty. This allows us to be "friends" of all six Syndicates and gain access to the mods, weapons and cosmetics of every Syndicate. 

=> This would be my preferred option.

2 - Once the player has helped an "enemy" Syndicate, they still dislike you, but will no longer send death squads and will be neutral to the player.

=> It would then make sense that you are able to do Arbitrations or visit Steel Wake, rather than them wanting to kill you, but still allowing access to their stuff, which makes no sense.

3 - Once the player has helped an "enemy" Syndicate, they still dislike you and still send death squads, but it is not the leader of the Syndicate that does this, but rather a sub-sect of them that has broken off from the main sect.

=> Makes a lot more sense than the leader of the Syndicate saying "thanks for your help, we will change", then showing up 2 minutes later in a mission saying "you're corrupted and must be purged".

 

My other ideas to revisit the Syndicates include:

  • Add a menu in the Arsenal that allows us to "represent" a Syndicate, without needing to put on a Sigil, which might clash with our Fashion-frame. A simple UI with the Syndicates and who we wish to represent. Our level with the Syndicate will give us the reputation bonus, rather than being forced to use the Rank-5 Sigil.
  • Allow us to buy Operator/Warframe cosmetics that represent each Syndicate. Many people wish to buy the Arbiters/Suda Operative outfits for use on our Operators, as they are seriously cool and would also allow us to say "Hey, I really like Cephalon Suda / the Arbiters!". 
  • More decorations or something please. The only thing I can buy from Suda is the Datum sculpture and Stencil. Why can't I get a poster or a Suda Articula? Same thing obviously goes for the other Syndicates.

 

That's about all I have, so I would love to hear what you guys think!

 

 

 

 

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Wall of text coming, because the Syndicate system gets under my skin.

They hate you enough to try to kill you, even though them killing you during a mission will literally help the factions that all the syndicates are against:  The enemy factions.  They hate you that much, not because you're opposing them or doing anything detrimental to them, but because you decided to help out the "wrong" faction and the wrong faction has zero in-game interaction with them, with a few hilariously bad exceptions.  They hate you this much even if you've been max rank with them more than once.

Yet they're all cool enough with each other to hang out in the same relays.  And let you back in with them again and eventually trust you enough to let you be max rank with them again.  Even if the only thing you do to regain their favor is wear their T-shirt.

And when you're max rank with them?  Do they have that same "send out death squads for the smallest slights against us" mentality?  You can literally be a General with Steel Meridian and the Grineer in a mission are opposing you and your efforts to slaughter them in the name of the Lotus loot The Greater Good and yet where is that same energy?  There's no support squads being sent out.  There's no airdrops of supplies like some random energy or resources or (not that anyone needs it.) ammo or anything.  No matter how useless it would end up being, there's no other side to that sends-out-hit-squads-against-you coin.

On top of that, the alliances make zero sense.  From even just a loot standpoint they make no sense.  The Grineer defectors are allied with...  The edgelord assassins that actively try to kidnap Grineer defectors?  The slightly less money-grubbing corpus are allied with...  The space hippies?  What?  As far as loot is concerned, half the time the allied syndicates have almost identical augments in them.  Like it's designed to be as much of a PITA as possible.

There is ZERO quality of life with the process of changing syndicates, since you have to change over your sigil on not just every frame, but every look loadout on every frame that you use.  When you bottom out your rank by changing syndicates it's a massive pain getting out of the hole with them to relevel them if there's something you want.  I've already paid for every rank for every syndicate so I don't even have that cost and it's STILL annoying releveling a syndicate.  Add on that it makes zero sense for them to go from ranking you as a top-tier member to them sending out hit squads on you when you've done nothing against them and it just compounds the irritation.  Then you consider:  There's not just the ongoing war against the ever-expanding enemy factions that they should be worried about instead of each other.  We're under invasion from the goddamn sentients and they are going to mop the floor with your frail little syndicate operatives and roller specters and you're still fighting each other AND the non-allied Tenno AND the enemy factions?  These idiots are purposely fighting a multi-front war for exactly zero benefit.

I have every syndicate augment in the game, and everything I want out of every syndicate.  If it weren't for the relic packs available in them (which I only need for farming plat and new primes when they come out at this point.) and the fact that you can make a small bit of plat selling augments, I would have tried to get all the syndicates back to neutral and taken off my sigils by now.  It's an empty, tedious system that is composed almost entirely of grind and what little lore is there makes absolutely no sense.  And with DE's current direction, I have zero hope that they will ever be fleshed out and re-tuned.

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My issue with the Syndicates is they are somewhat pointless. You can grind up for the weapons and Augments, but I would really like to see some in a weekly quest rotation or something showing them actively fighting against stuff. There's just not much reason to bother with them after you've bought the main stuff.

 

I'd also REALLY REALLY REALLY like to see some better methods of grinding Silmaris and Conclave rep. Both of those are painfully annoying, especially Silmaris. I don't understand why we don't have some method of gathering rep by doing the Sanctuary missions.

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il y a 59 minutes, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

[Redacted]

 

You raise A LOT of points that I didn't even think of! Wow... yes, on much closer inspection, the Syndicates really do suck from both a gameplay perspective AND from a lore perspective.

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il y a 34 minutes, HoustonDragon a dit :

I'd also REALLY REALLY REALLY like to see some better methods of grinding Silmaris and Conclave rep. Both of those are painfully annoying, especially Silmaris. I don't understand why we don't have some method of gathering rep by doing the Sanctuary missions.

 

A clan-mate of mine told me the best way to grind Simaris rep. Use the Synthesis Scanner on un-alerted enemies. Go on a high-level exterminate or something with Ivara and scan every enemy, while invisible, before you stealth kill them.

Basically the same tactic as using Sleep-Quinox on Adaro, except using the Synthesis Scanner before you kill them.

Maxed Simaris daily standing in one mission.

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Just now, Els236 said:

 

A clan-mate of mine told me the best way to grind Simaris rep. Use the Synthesis Scanner on un-alerted enemies. Go on a high-level exterminate or something with Ivara and scan every enemy, while invisible, before you stealth kill them.

Basically the same tactic as using Sleep-Quinox on Adaro, except using the Synthesis Scanner before you kill them.

Maxed Simaris daily standing in one mission.

Okay, yes.  That 100% works.  But no one will ever be able to convince me that running Simaris' simulation for his data collection should not grant standing with Simaris.

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Il y a 19 heures, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

Okay, yes.  That 100% works.  But no one will ever be able to convince me that running Simaris' simulation for his data collection should not grant standing with Simaris.

I completely agree, but you know, DE.

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On 2020-05-28 at 11:04 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

On top of that, the alliances make zero sense.  From even just a loot standpoint they make no sense.  The Grineer defectors are allied with...  The edgelord assassins that actively try to kidnap Grineer defectors?  The slightly less money-grubbing corpus are allied with...  The space hippies?  What?  As far as loot is concerned, half the time the allied syndicates have almost identical augments in them.  Like it's designed to be as much of a PITA as possible.

Very much this. I went to check out Valkyr's Enraged mod, only to find that it's being sold by the Perrin Sequence and New Loka. Why? Those are two allied syndicates which prop each other up. Who has one but not the other? I assume that's because Valkyr's augments are available from those two already, but why is that in the first place? Surely you'd want to spread Augments among enemy syndicates to ensure a broader range of players have access to them. Or if you WANT to create artificial scarcity through bullS#&$ restrictions, then why are Valkyr's augments available from TWO Syndicates? Could have easily been just the Perrin Sequence, given her backstory. And that's just off the top of my head.

Worse - the themes of the alliances make no sense. Steel Meridian is a group of freedom fighters trying to save the lives of civilians and defectors hurt by the war. Why the ever-loving crap are they allied with the Red Veil? Even ignoring the fact that Red Veil will actively attack Kavor Defectors, they're assassins and all-around brazenly evil. Wouldn't it have made more sense for Steel Meridian to be allied with the Perrin Sequence? Now, sure - one's Grineer and the other Corpus, but they're both defectors from and enemies of their respective factions. "The enemy of my enemy," as it were. Moreover, Ergo Glast appears to be a genuinely good person, risking his standing in the Corpus and investing his money not for personal gain but the help others. Their ideologies align, at least broadly speaking. Instead, Ergo Glast is allied with the Space Hippies who appear to have his materialistic, capitalist ways. These two have nothing in common.

Personally, I would have expected that Steel Meridian would be allied with the Perrin Sequence, the Arbiters of Hexus allied with Cephalon Suda (both being aloof seekers of order and meaning) and New Loka shacked up with the Red Veil (because they're both extremists). I am stretching it a little bit, granted, and Suda already IS allied with the Arbiters, but still. The alliances baffle me.

 

On 2020-05-28 at 11:04 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

There is ZERO quality of life with the process of changing syndicates, since you have to change over your sigil on not just every frame, but every look loadout on every frame that you use.

Agreed - that's tedious. For me, though, it's actually worse. I'm a Steel Meridian fanboy, but all of their sigils are BUTT UGLY. Other Syndicates' sigils I can just hide, but SM's sigils have this annoying reflective chrome effect which never goes away. The system of wearing their sigils is just awful. It's an affront to Fashionframe, it's hideously inconvenient and it has little narrative weight. I say here what I've always said - decouple Syndicate Standing from Syndicate Sigils, let us pick our active Syndicate like we pick our Focus School, and just let us wear the legacy Syndicate Sigils IF AND ONLY IF we actually like how they look. Yes, it's a small thing, but it absolutely galls me that I have to plaster a Syndicate's logo on my body if I want to work with them, especially because most people just hide it under their guns and syandana.

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Le 29/05/2020 à 21:40, Steel_Rook a dit :

Very much this. I went to check out Valkyr's Enraged mod, only to find that it's being sold by the Perrin Sequence and New Loka. Why? Those are two allied syndicates which prop each other up. Who has one but not the other? I assume that's because Valkyr's augments are available from those two already, but why is that in the first place? Surely you'd want to spread Augments among enemy syndicates to ensure a broader range of players have access to them. Or if you WANT to create artificial scarcity through bullS#&$ restrictions, then why are Valkyr's augments available from TWO Syndicates? Could have easily been just the Perrin Sequence, given her backstory. And that's just off the top of my head.

Worse - the themes of the alliances make no sense. Steel Meridian is a group of freedom fighters trying to save the lives of civilians and defectors hurt by the war. Why the ever-loving crap are they allied with the Red Veil? Even ignoring the fact that Red Veil will actively attack Kavor Defectors, they're assassins and all-around brazenly evil. Wouldn't it have made more sense for Steel Meridian to be allied with the Perrin Sequence? Now, sure - one's Grineer and the other Corpus, but they're both defectors from and enemies of their respective factions. "The enemy of my enemy," as it were. Moreover, Ergo Glast appears to be a genuinely good person, risking his standing in the Corpus and investing his money not for personal gain but the help others. Their ideologies align, at least broadly speaking. Instead, Ergo Glast is allied with the Space Hippies who appear to have his materialistic, capitalist ways. These two have nothing in common.

Personally, I would have expected that Steel Meridian would be allied with the Perrin Sequence, the Arbiters of Hexus allied with Cephalon Suda (both being aloof seekers of order and meaning) and New Loka shacked up with the Red Veil (because they're both extremists). I am stretching it a little bit, granted, and Suda already IS allied with the Arbiters, but still. The alliances baffle me.

 

Agreed - that's tedious. For me, though, it's actually worse. I'm a Steel Meridian fanboy, but all of their sigils are BUTT UGLY. Other Syndicates' sigils I can just hide, but SM's sigils have this annoying reflective chrome effect which never goes away. The system of wearing their sigils is just awful. It's an affront to Fashionframe, it's hideously inconvenient and it has little narrative weight. I say here what I've always said - decouple Syndicate Standing from Syndicate Sigils, let us pick our active Syndicate like we pick our Focus School, and just let us wear the legacy Syndicate Sigils IF AND ONLY IF we actually like how they look. Yes, it's a small thing, but it absolutely galls me that I have to plaster a Syndicate's logo on my body if I want to work with them, especially because most people just hide it under their guns and syandana.

 

You went into more detail than I did with the whole alliances thing, but I'm glad you basically agree with what I say!

A lot of them just don't make sense and the sigils thing is really bothersome.

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Le 30/05/2020 à 02:36, Educated_Beast a dit :

Yet...

Oh dear... x)

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2 hours ago, Els236 said:

You went into more detail than I did with the whole alliances thing, but I'm glad you basically agree with what I say! A lot of them just don't make sense and the sigils thing is really bothersome.

Yup! A plain reading of each Syndicate's nature, ideology and personality makes the current alliances just weird. Like I said - Suda and the Arbiters make sense, but the other two pairings don't. Some of them seem entirely random (like Steel Meridian and Red Veil) while others entirely superficial (like Steel Meridian and the Perrin Sequence). Personally, I'd go with the following:

  • Steel Meridian:
    • Ally: Perrin Sequence
    • Opposed: New Loka
    • Enemy: Red Veil
  • Perrin Sequence:
    • Ally: Steel Meridian:
    • Opposed: Cephalon Suda
    • Enemy: Arbiters of Hexis
  • Arbiters of Hexis:
    • Ally: Cephalon Suda
    • Opposed: Red Veil
    • Enemy: New Loka
  • Cephalon Suda:
    • Ally: Arbiters of Hexis
    • Opposed: Steel Meridian
    • Enemy: Perrin Sequence
  • Red Veil
    • Ally: New Loka
    • Opposed: Perrin Sequence
    • Enemy: Steel Meridian
  • New Loka:
    • Ally: Red Veil
    • Opposed: Arbiters of Hexis
    • Enemy: Cephalon Suda

This is an attempt to do three things: Firstly, it's an attempt for alliances to make some amount of sense. Secondly, it's an attempt to break Syndicates into three broad alliances. Finally, it's an attempt to have each alliance member hate a different alliance. As for my thematic reasoning:

Steel Meridian and the Perrin Sequence share a common goal - helping the unfortunate, the downtrodden, the oppressed with whatever resources they have access to. Steel Meridian have the muscle, Perrin Sequence have the money. Steel Meridian hate extremists due to the damage they cause to people caught in the crossfire, thus why they hate Red Veil and New Loka. The Perrin Sequence, on the other hand, hate the dispassionate logic of the Corpus seeing people as little more than objects and numbers, thus they hate the amoral Arbiters and Suda.

The Arbiters of Hexis and Cephalon Suda share a common ideology, broadly described as "true neutral." They care about preserving balance and learning, not necessarily about the morality or fates of the individuals involved. Suda focuses on collecting and cataloguing data, the Arbiters focus on testing out hypotheses in controlled circumstances where all variables can be accounted for. The Arbiters hate disorder, thus they dislike the sloppy extremism of Loka and Veil. Suda prefers predictability, thus she dislikes Steel Meridian and Perrin Sequence's tendency to act on emotion rather than logic.

The Red Veil and New Loka share a common hatred of the "other." They both see corruption, evil and enemies all around them, believing that the world would be improved if the "other" is removed, violently if necessary - and it's always necessary. The Red Veil hate self-appointed "heroes" who stick their noses in other people's business. They don't believe in redemption, so see both Corpus and Grineer as enemy regardless of circumstance. New Loka are general Luddites who believe in a return to a more "natural" society. As such, the strict order of the Arbiters and the dispassionate rationality of Suda are seen as dangerous to the mission of purity. There can be no middle ground - you're either with Loka or against them.

And again - I AM stretching things a little bit to try and balance out who hates whom for the purposes of still being able to manage four Syndicates. That's just what makes sense to me.

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Il y a 3 heures, Steel_Rook a dit :

[Redacted]

 

--- WARNING: WALL OF TEXT ---

 

Citation

 

From the Steel Meridian Wiki page:

 

  • New Loka's beliefs is what may have put them at opposition with the Steel Meridian, as they do not see Grineer to be of true humanity, a stigma dating back to the Orokin Empire. This is shown through one of Amaryn's quotes during The Silver Grove quest, stating that "the rest of the Earth is polluted by the monstrosities of [the Orokin's] genetic tinkering", slightly hinting to the fact she knows about the Grineer Queens' origins
  • On the other hand, Steel Meridian and Red Veil's alliance seems to signify a "sword-and-shield" relationship; The Red Veil seeks out to purge the Origin System of evil, cutting down those who dare harm those whom the Steel Meridian guard.

 

From The Perrin Sequence Wiki page:

 

  • According to Cephalon Cordylon, whilst Steel Meridian's and The Perrin Sequence's ideologies do not conflict, their differing methods of resolving conflict does – the former by force and the latter by diplomacy which is the main cause of the negative alignment of both parties, although this may also be attributed from the years of the former's xenophobic culture adapted from the Grineer, a form of hate between the two races which cannot be alleviated with words alone.
  • One reason that may be attributed to the Arbiters of Hexis opposing The Perrin Sequence might be the views of the Arbiters that see a wide and vast potential in the Tenno, disregarding the Sequence's methods of resolving conflict as reducing the Tenno into becoming mere merchants brokering peace.
  • Although it may seem odd, New Loka and the Perrin Sequence find themselves working together, most likely because of their shared view of a system-wide peace. The goals of the two are still fundamentally similar, though each of them have their own way of accomplishing it.

 

  •  

 

So, what can we gleam from this information?

  • Steel Meridian should only be opposed to The Perrin Sequence, although the whole plot-point here is "innate xenophobia in the Grineer", despite the fact that Cressa Tal works with people from Red Veil, WHO ARE NOT GRINEER.
  • Steel Meridian should HATE New Loka, as they look to cleanse Earth of the Grineer as a whole.
  • Red Veil apparently protect the weak, so they are immediate allies of Steel Meridian? What? When they are clearly seen using the Infested as pawns and torturing Grineer? Yeah, that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

  • The Arbiters of Hexis only oppose The Perrin Sequence because T.P.S. do not exploit the Tenno "for their true purpose" when why would they? The whole opposition thing falls apart if they used a little common sense.
  • The Perrin Sequence are only allies of New Loka because they want universal peace, yet New Loka are trying to cleanse the Earth of anything that isn't "Human" or "Pure". This whole alliance falls apart because New Loka aren't peaceful, they are purist cultists. 

 

New Loka hate Cephalon Suda because she is a technological construct and New Loka hate technology.... ok then?

 

Honestly, if things have to stay the way they are in regards to one ally and 2 "enemies":

  • The Arbiters of Hexis should be opposed to New Loka and Red Veil as they are both fanatical cultists.
  • Cephalon Suda can stay as she is, opposing Red Veil and hating New Loka, although really it should be the other way around (lesser of two evils thing). 
  • Steel Meridian should be allies of The Perrin Sequence and opposed to New Loka and Red Veil.
  • New Loka should be allies of Red Veil and enemies of Steel Meridian and The Perrin Sequence.
  • Red Veil should be allies of New Loka and enemies of The Arbiters of Hexis and The Perrin Sequence.
  • The Perrin Sequence should be allies of Steel Meridian and enemies of Red Veil and New Loka.

I think I have made it so that everyone is an ally of someone and a rival/enemy of someone else. I've just re-jigged it to make a little more sense.

 

Still doesn't explain why I can't work with every single one of them as a Tenno however.

 

 

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@Els236It`s good to see un-popular posts like this, I also did a post talking about this however it`s more about the missions and the offered rewards. Tell me what you think.

 

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Il y a 14 heures, (PS4)Vexx757 a dit :

@Els236It`s good to see un-popular posts like this, I also did a post talking about this however it`s more about the missions and the offered rewards. Tell me what you think.

 

 

I can't disagree.

It's weird these Syndicates hate each other, yet they don't have any conflicts between themselves. Like Suda missions should be raiding New Loka on Earth or something like that, or synthesising a bunch of Red Veil nut-cases.

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1 hour ago, Els236 said:

 

I can't disagree.

It's weird these Syndicates hate each other, yet they don't have any conflicts between themselves. Like Suda missions should be raiding New Loka on Earth or something like that, or synthesising a bunch of Red Veil nut-cases.

People who have been around awhile remeber old pvp versus pve, where it was basically competitions versus other player teams.  Of course it was a fiasco with cc abilities and kills at spawn, but it was fun.  

Imagine raiding a red veil base for +/- standing with other players on a ladder board.  Forget sigils, player teams / clans will complete blasting pve for getting to top of ladder / conclave standing and then some of the hate between syndicates would make since.  

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Syndicates need to be more immersive and not just a glorified vendor. 

Build on the syndicate alliances and their inner faction wars, with related missions that aren't just hide and seek for medals. Have the metals as rewards.

 

Really would be awesome if as the player you really felt like part of the syndicate you choose and the enemy syndicates actually felt like a threat. Also ranking up should not only give you access to more rewards but more influence and perks within that syndicate.

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