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Lets have a discussion about, 'forum toxicity and sassy responses'.


Midas
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1 hour ago, Midas said:

My title elaborates on the sensitive subject that i'd like to discuss here.

Personally, I have seen (7 years) forum toxicity towards many posts that I felt have made a negative effect on our community. So I have a few questions for you guys to kick this discussion off. Do you believe that forum toxicity is bad or just plain natural? Do you believe that forum toxicity on the forums should change, and how would we go about that change? Do you think it is possible to change Warframe's toxic forum culture? Personally, I take the stance of yes. It is indeed possible to change how we reply to others even if the post is 'asking for it' or 'so radical that I just need to roast this person'. The last two statements are usually the main reasons for forum toxicity.

Overall, what are your answers to the above questions? Any opinions on them?

Thanks!

- Midaxe

I realized many years ago during my WoW days...official, heavily moderated  forums are simply a place companies supply to let  frustrated players blow off steam in a controlled manner  ....

 

That is their main purpose,and it will never change 😕

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9 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

This^ 

That's when I get suspicious (tin foil hat time) that DE employees are pretending to not be DE employees and shoot down player feedback with thier "reg player accounts" in the forums because they have thier own agendas. Because implemention of said feedback makes thier work harder to do. Doesn't make sense any other way. That's my theory  anyway.  

Is there perhaps a better explanation? 🤔 

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58 minutes ago, Midas said:

Do you believe that forum toxicity is bad or just plain natural?

It is a natural thing. We are in the internet, not an actual IRL forum. People can say whatever they want, act as childish or toxic as they want, etc, because there is no fear of retaliation. Being moderated is some kind of warning, but i believe that in reality, many people do not care for being moderated (multiple accounts and the such).

How do you combat this kind of thing? unfortunately one of the solutions is also fear. For example, if you make a system where robbery is punished with death, people will think twice before robbing someone, to the point that there wont be anymore robberies. Give something to the toxic people here, to think twice before starting to be toxic, and maybe in a couple of years, you will have a forum free of toxicity.

1 hour ago, Midas said:

Do you believe that forum toxicity on the forums should change, ... Do you think it is possible to change Warframe's toxic forum culture?

It should, yes, but realistically, you will find toxicity in every corner of the world. I don't wanna say is impossible to get rid of all of the toxicity, but fact is, it exist, and it will keep doing so. Change does not start with the forum moderators being hard on toxicity, this only encourages more people to be toxic, is human nature, when we are not allowed to do something, the more we want to do that thing. Change start with the individual. Do i want to be toxic? what do i gain from being toxic? is it fun to be toxic? is it fun to ruin someone else day by being toxic? all this and more questions. Unfortunately for us, there are people in this world who take joy in being as toxic as possible.

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6 minutes ago, GerberaOverture said:

people's opinions dont lose value even if they contain strong words or maby even a couple of snarky jabs at someone, that is, if they even have an actual opinion to begin with. people should stop running from the harsh reality, should stop wishing to live in a perfect fluffy world without any sharp corners. 

A generation that grew up on South Park and Famiky Guy couldn't be more sensitive. 

Warframes community generally is great. Now I have had some run ins with a few toxic members whether it be in game or at Tennocon but just like everywhere else....your gunna have your fair share of people like that. 

I think people need to have a little more backbone. I'll listen to an arguement that has valid points, I may not agree but I will at least hear your arguement. 

And if you call me an a**hole for disagreeing wit you: I've been called alot less by better so. 

Toxicity is everywhere even in a great community that warframe has. 

 

Edited by (XB1)Cram Duahcim
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The only corners of WF that I've found "toxic" are competitive Eidolon farming, and people on trade chat selling grossly overpriced Prime sets to noobs that haven't learned about .market yet. Most forum negativity here strikes me as the usual venting, and while riven trading has its share of jerks, it gets way more hate than it deserves.

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5 minutes ago, GerberaOverture said:

people's opinions dont lose value even if they contain strong words or maby even a couple of snarky jabs at someone, that is, if they even have an actual opinion to begin with. people should stop running from the harsh reality, should stop wishing to live in a perfect fluffy world without any sharp corners. 

I don’t know who you are, but I feel like you haven’t experienced a world with sharp corners yet. Nor would I wish it upon you.

Would you mind sparing a thought for those who don’t want to be hurt though?

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5 минут назад, (XB1)Cram Duahcim сказал:

A generation that grew up on South Park and Famiky Guy couldn't be more sensitive. 

Warframes community generally is great. Now I have had some run ins with a few toxic members whether it be in game or at Tennocon but just like everywhere else....your gunna have your fair share of people like that. 

I think people need to have a little more backbone. I'll listen to an arguement that has valid points, I may not agree but I will at least hear your arguement. 

And if you call me an a**hole for disagreeing wit you: I've been called alot less by better so. 

Toxicity is everywhere even in a great community that warframe has. 

 

iunno about your opening sentence, dude, i'd expect them to be much less sensitive about this made-up "toxicity" (myself for example)

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1 минуту назад, (NSW)Greybones сказал:

I don’t know who you are, but I feel like you haven’t experienced a world with sharp corners yet. Nor would I wish it upon you.

Would you mind sparing a thought for those who don’t want to be hurt though?

had my honest share, but its not exactly a public matter

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I think the actual toxicity on these forums is minimal. I've only experienced one community more friendly and relaxed and that was in Marvel Heroes, where the toxicity more came from a few select devs that couldnt handle criticism. Mostly one that had a nickname that sounds like another 3 letter word for hiney or butt with a rose at the end. He got insulted whenever people pointed out things like lightning based themes would fit better on Mjolnir than on Jarnbjorn for Thor, or that his work was mostly lazy stats sticks and not the unique items that the person before him used to design. No real wonder EA-sports wanted him as a dev in the end.

Here on the WF forums I think more of the things some people see as toxicity are just more "grow thicker skin" situations. The actual toxicity outbursts are few and far between. The only toxicity that actually gets to me here is when people call out DE and claim they are incompetent etc. and call them stupid or this and that for putting more effort into skins than actual playable content. There are just so many dead givaways in such comments that you know the person that farts or burps them out of a hole has little clues about what he's talking about in the first place. It is also comedy gold when they do it in general discussion and also complain that DE never listens to feedback.

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I don't feel the Forums are a very welcoming place personally. It more or less comes down to the culture of this game and the "societal norms" of the playerbase. It's the same for other games as well as Reddit. There is no real solution or problem to solve. Just share your opinions on this outlet and talk about the game. We all love this game for one reason or another to invest time on the Forums.

Sassy comments are fine with me to be honest.

Edited by Voltage
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19 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Is there perhaps a better explanation? 🤔 

Nope not from what I've been reading in these forums for the last 6 years. I'm convinced DE has employees everywhere in these forums pretending to be reg players. Shooting down ideas that wouldn't  effect reg players but would effect DE employees.  

Edited by (XB1)YoungGunn82
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As someone who definitely should post less or at least think a bit more before hitting the submit button, I think being toxic is bad overall, but these forums manage to avoid the majority of it.

For me, it depends on the forum's subsection and the OP itself, most times I find myself mirroring a person I'm replying to. 

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Nope not from what I've been reading in these forums for the last 6 years. I'm convinced DE has employees everywhere in these forums pretending to be reg players. Shooting down ideas that wouldn't  effect reg players but would effect DE employees.  

I see. I appreciate your clarifying your perspective 👍 I like learning about others

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We all take chances when we engage in discourse with others be it on the internet, or in person in our day to day lives. Remember here in the forums dominated by the written word we do not have body language or ques from tone of voice to aide in our interpretations so it is only natural that when we write in response or make a thread our language must convey our emotions as well as our ideas. 

Saying our forum has a "toxic forum culture" is subjective and I would argue false when held up against places like 4chan, Youtube comments, and some of the seriously dark places of the internet. Yes we have our trolls, but we also have just as many if not more beautifully intelligent, witty, and downright sassy people who engage here and give this forum life. 

Now I will admit there have been a few times where I have been overly self righteous and slipped becoming overly poignant with a poster and to my knowledge only one of my posts has been scrubbed I errored there were other ways I could have framed my thoughts in a better context. However the moderator made that decision and I accept it. Ideas posted in these forums need to survive scrutiny, when opinions are put forth for our reading the author must be ready to handle criticism because there will always be differing opinions it's why forums like this exist to have discourse. That said it can be constructive, or it can be destructive and the moderators will use their experience guided by intelligence along with their guidelines and make that call to allow a post or remove it.

It is easy to put a label on someone's post it requires minimal effort and little breakdown of an idea one may not agree with, and that has lead to buzz words like "toxic" being thrown around left and right for their shock value, and it has also distorted the perceptions of what a truly toxic post is. Responding to a post attacking the person behind it with put downs and slurs that is an example of toxicity, breaking down a person's idea and offering counter points civilly or somewhat sassy if they find the idea silly is not. 

We are all capable of being rude or wonderful and how we conduct ourselves in these forums that is entirely dependant upon one's moral character. 

-M

 

 

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Nowadays I pretty much only hop on the forums to see what sort of antics DeMonkey and MagPrime get up to. Their sassy replies have become a part of my morning phone check routine. Think about it from the perspective of "why would someone be on the forums (instead of playing the game)"

Many of the reasons I can think of (bug reports, complaints, bored with the actual game) usually bring a negative mood along with them. IE it's unsurprising to find grumpy people here, most of the happy-go-lucky types are probably in game.

Other more positive reasons to be here like fanarts and concepts don't garner as much attention as they did when the game was younger (at least for me since I've seen a lot of repeat ideas over the year). Also the sassy-reply-peeps kind of need the toxic posts in order to meme off of so it's hard to call it positive.

Long story short: forums are just a portion of the community, it's important to remember the types of people that frequent this cursed land.

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1 hour ago, Midas said:

Personally, I have seen (7 years) forum toxicity towards many posts that I felt have made a negative effect on our community.

... I've also been here for quite a while .... July 27, 2013. And this means nothing. 

So - and this might sound harsh - you might be too sensitive. The forums are, as far as I can tell, well moderated and civil.

If you see toxicity , then report it? The mods don't see everything. but they will see the toxicity if you report it.

Have you ever been digging through the warframe tag on Twitter? Now THAT'S toxic.

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In general, Warframe isn't the most toxic gaming communities, but in here the forums tho, an obscure place to talk about Warframe ,we are discussing stuff as already small numbers.

So yeah, we're pretty much debating with the same people over and over, and constantly occasionally sassing at unfortunate forum newcomers who came here to rant and tick off the Warframe forum bingo.

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A number of posters have already pointed out that toxicity in the forums is always there, whether it is Warframe or some other game. So I won't dwell on that.

The way I approach it is to think about my sphere of control. Is it something that I can control? Can't. So I drop the idea of trying to stop anyone from being toxic. It's out of my control.

Is it within my sphere of influence? It depends on whether the poster is willing to read and think about it. Sometimes I try to reason. Other times, I just give up and read the next thread.

A lot of this toxicity, in my opinion, has two components, i.e., the toxic poster and the toxic reader. The reader finds the posts toxic and is affected by it, hence it's toxic. If the toxic post was read by someone who is indifferent about the toxicity of the post, he reads the post and move on. He is not affected, hence the post is either relevant or irrelevant to him. But not toxic.

Isn't this how we deal with real life? If someone is being unreasonably aggressive in an argument, do we raise our voice to argue back? Often I will walk away from it because I don't see value in continuing a heated discussion and risk losing a friend. I may walk away by not replying or simply nodding my head to acknowledge whatever he has said and I will just withhold my opinions.

My two cents worth on the subject.

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There's a pretty big difference between sassy responses and toxic behavior.

Sass/Sassy behavior is usually tongue in cheek and meant to elicit chuckles. As long as it's not taken too far it's fine. Too much of it, or when it's taken too far, is not okay though; basically when the purpose of the sassy responses and behavior becomes targeted harassment or intentional insults (at which point it becomes toxic behavior). A little sass here and there is fine; a lot, not so much.

On the other hand, toxic behavior is never okay and not something we condone at any point. This encompasses behavior like bullying, harassment, insults, rage/rant posts, excessive profanity... basically any behavior which runs contrary to civil and constructive discussion.

Lastly, if you see another user engaging in toxic behavior, whether it's directed towards you or towards someone else, this is not a free pass for you to act toxic towards them; doing so only brings you down to (or below) their level and actually puts you at just as much fault in the eyes of the rules as them. Players' best option on how to deal with other people being toxic is to: Report the behavior via the proper channels (screenshot & support ticket, or forum report of the post(s) in question) so a moderator can intervene, Disengage from the other user (stop responding to the conversation or to them if you're involved), and Ignore them if necessary (you can ignore people in game and on the forums, allowing you to hide their posts from your view, prevent them from pinging you, and block them from sending you private messages).

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2 hours ago, GerberaOverture said:

iunno about your opening sentence, dude, i'd expect them to be much less sensitive about this made-up "toxicity" (myself for example)

the way i see it is those Cartoons and other stuff like it teach people that if they're really rude and just talk louder than anyone else that they'll always get their way.
Society tends to reinforce that too anyways, with it usually being setup to follow the doctrine of 'race to the police' (which refers to people pretending to be victims of something as fast as possible because generally whoever pulls the card first is treated as in the right), and the like.

though i see that as different to people that are wrong about __ and will do anything possible to retain that mental position - ideally what is right would be all that matters. mind, i specifically say what, not who. since who is irrelevant, what is right is always going to be the same thing nobody who is involved.

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3 hours ago, Midas said:

My title elaborates on the sensitive subject that i'd like to discuss here.

Personally, I have seen (7 years) forum toxicity towards many posts that I felt have made a negative effect on our community. So I have a few questions for you guys to kick this discussion off. Do you believe that forum toxicity is bad or just plain natural? Do you believe that forum toxicity on the forums should change, and how would we go about that change? Do you think it is possible to change Warframe's toxic forum culture? Personally, I take the stance of yes. It is indeed possible to change how we reply to others even if the post is 'asking for it' or 'so radical that I just need to roast this person'. The last two statements are usually the main reasons for forum toxicity.

Overall, what are your answers to the above questions? Any opinions on them?

Thanks!

- Midaxe

What do you consider toxic?

But to answer the question; it is entirely possible to change the tone of a thread and the Forums overall by putting in the extra effort to expand on ideas and add clarifying comments.

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