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0_The_F00l

Lack of Ammo as deterrent?

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Posted (edited)

Hello Tenno,

Hope you are staying safe in your infested suits away from other infested suits to avoid infestations. 

I have been reading through a lot of posts that emphasised of "balance" and "challenge " in the game. 

While I would love to see it happen, I am as hopeful as a demon waiting for redemption for it to really materialise, demons aren't here to get good, they are here to be bad and make those around them suffer in imaginative ways 😈

But being all powerful does get relatively boring after a little bit of eternity. 

And while I could wear cement shoes and enter a rope jumping contest It wouldnt really be all that surprising to see the results. 

All I would know is how heavy my shoes are. 

It would be interesting if the rope was set on fire and the one spinning the ropes started singing ringa ringa Rosie in a very creepy girl voice, would definitely change the pace a bit. 

To the point now, was recently taking one of my possessions for a walk, you know the guy, has a man bun (sometimes lampshade) on his head and has the disposition of a hippie and BO to match (the guy can make people unconscious by shooting his odour in their general vicinity or raising his hands to the sky, is also sweaty enough that bullets just slide off him) 

Any way, enough about his hygiene,

he also has a bad habit of bringing daggers to gun fights, these daggers he throws with such accuracy that they impale the hands or any other grabby appendage one may have to numb them. Cant pull the trigger if your fingers don't move how you want. 

And then said idiots try to grab any handy sticks and try to rush him. Yeah, remember the part of the BO? Not gonna be approaching anytime soon. 

I was talking of baruuk if it was not clear enough

So I got to thinking. 

I can take away enemies guns, haven't seen them do something similar to me, (yeah yeah, the dog guys and a very specific radioactive undead with dumb names could do it temporary) 

They can't take away my ability to go shoot shooty and explody with any actual effectiveness. 

So what if, 

You got an enemy with a giant vaccum cleaner or a strong magnet that drains all your ammo as well as all ammo (maybe energy and health too?) on ground? 

Can't mutate any ammo if you got no ammo to mutate. 

Sure sure "Whats ThE pOinT of AmMO if I can just PRess 4 To WiN" the guys with this mindset can walk away right now and enjoy spamming your abilities and finish your jobs and clock out the time sheet or do whatever you wanna do that makes you feel good about yourself, 

You little demons can keep being the demons with classic pitchforks and not concern yourself with this little torture technique i am suggesting

We have leeches that can drain energy, toxic enemies that leech health (I mean in the game, no reference to any specific  people actually really reading so far and about to type something in the thread), but no enemies that can drain ammo (or shields but seriously who cares about shields except those that play with mobility focus and have found shield gating a very welcome change?). 

We don't need bullet sponges, we need bullet eaters. 

Well that's it from my side. Be good little demons and do what good little demons do now. 

Edited by 0_The_F00l
Emboldened the actual point
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Melee doesn't need ammo, you know?

Plus, no thanks, I kinda need the ammo drops for Sleight of Hand.

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Posted (edited)

I would be ok with it, if they either take all your Ammo fast and drop at least most of it after dying (maybe with a timer, that destroys absorbed ammo slowly), or if they are rare and drain ammo only slowly.
If they spawn too often and take your Ammo too fast and don`t give it back, it severely punishes you and might make some missions unplayable, except, like someone above me pointed out, we have Munition Packs for that.
So make it a temporarily problem that you want to adress anyway.

Otherwise, just make enemies, that disable Primary or Secondary Weapons in an area around them, and enemies, that are immune to melee. 

Edited by Happynuke

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Carrier, ammo clip capacity mods, max ammo mods, ammo transmutaiton mods, ammo pads.

So many otpions you refuse to use, ammo mutation is not hard to get and even then oyu can buy it for like 1 plat of the market, oh the humanity.

Some equipment needs balance YOU need to balance out, simple as it is.

I try to lets say compare Trinity which has no AoE spells whatsoever i give a AoE weapon, if a weapon takes alot of ammo i take carrier with or some ammo mods to balance, full damage means nothing without ammo to do it. Simple as it is.

You can't balme this kind of problem on the game, some weapons i say need a heavy both, especilly old secondarys like Viper with there low total ammo, but others need ot to be balance kinda so. less spam, more accuracy simply.

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24 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

I kinda need the ammo drops for Sleight of Hand.

You can always get alternative Drops for this ability.  Pretty much...pieces of armor, broken enemy weapons and other stuff.

Its easy to do. Just like Mag's shards or Atlas' rubble.

42 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So what if, 

You got an enemy with a giant vaccum cleaner or a strong magnet that drains all your ammo as well as all ammo (maybe energy and health too?) on ground? 

This is the only thing you had to post.  I almost missed it in all that weird sht you wrote.

 

And to this idea I say NO.   Because Leech enemies are not good as they are.  They don't improve energy or ammo economies in any way.

 

You would get a YES if :

1) Leech enemies are Visible.  Very distinguishable.  Like Nox or Prosecutors.   Slow and Avoidable in fast missions, they will be a "must kill 1st" unit in any defense type.

2) Leech enemy only Drains you if you ATTACK it with what it can Leech.   Leeches are immune to what they Leech.

  •   Ammo Leech will steal bullets from your Ammo pool if you shoot it (steals only from the weapon that were used)
  •   Energy Leech will steal portion of energy if you hit it with Ability.

3) Leech will explode upon Non-mercy kill.  Mercy Kill will return 30% of what said Leech stole.  

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1 hour ago, Firetempest said:

Then spam 360?cb=20141113234408

Just making a extra step.

But what if it sucks up those too? (just continuing the joke)

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3 minutes ago, SocialFox said:

But what if it sucks up those too? (just continuing the joke)

Don't give Pablo any ideas. The man gave us nullifiers after all.

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2 hours ago, Firetempest said:

Then spam 360?cb=20141113234408

Just making a extra step.

Lets suck that too. It's a massive suck! 

2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Melee doesn't need ammo, you know?

Plus, no thanks, I kinda need the ammo drops for Sleight of Hand.

The game doesn't need melee either, it's not to invalidate the ability to do damage Mr. smarty pants, it's to limit the means to do damage. 

2 hours ago, Happynuke said:

I would be ok with it, if they either take all your Ammo fast and drop at least most of it after dying (maybe with a timer, that destroys absorbed ammo slowly), or if they are rare and drain ammo only slowly.
 

Sure that can work, as rare as heavies or eximus units perhaps, as a bonus how's about ammo efficiency for a limited time buff on killing em. I feel similar buffs should exist for all these special ability enemies. 

2 hours ago, Marine027 said:

Carrier, ammo clip capacity mods, max ammo mods, ammo transmutaiton mods, ammo pads.

So many otpions you refuse to use, ammo mutation is not hard to get and even then oyu can buy it for like 1 plat of the market, oh the humanity.

Some equipment needs balance YOU need to balance out, simple as it is.

I try to lets say compare Trinity which has no AoE spells whatsoever i give a AoE weapon, if a weapon takes alot of ammo i take carrier with or some ammo mods to balance, full damage means nothing without ammo to do it. Simple as it is.

You can't balme this kind of problem on the game, some weapons i say need a heavy both, especilly old secondarys like Viper with there low total ammo, but others need ot to be balance kinda so. less spam, more accuracy simply.

I am not sure what you are trying to say are you supporting, criticizing or running at a tangent with what I have mentioned? 

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

.

This is the only thing you had to post.  I almost missed it in all that weird sht you wrote.

You actually read the whole thing? Here I thought people would just read the title and comment based on that, 

You give me hope in humanity. Go away you don't belong in this place with your attitude. 

As per your other suggestions I feel they are well thought out and suitable to go with what I suggested. 

1 hour ago, SocialFox said:

But what if it sucks up those too? (just continuing the joke)

It is big suck. It suck everything.

1 hour ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Don't give Pablo any ideas. The man gave us nullifiers after all.

@[DE]Pablo to add to some ideas which you may already have. 

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9 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Go away you don't belong in this place with your attitude.

Pfeh...You r one to talk. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

Pfeh...You r one to talk. 

 

Don't make me add more appreciations and veiled compliments! I will use them in sarcastic ways! 

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Considering how utterly obnoxious Energy Leech Eximus already are, I don't want some equivalent Ammo Leech Eximus randomly spawn in missions, either.

 

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Eh, I'll either just use Fulmin and kit guns with pax charge forever, or just melee everything. 🤷‍♀️

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Posted (edited)

Enemies that sweep away pickups on the ground? You mean like some kind of Scavenger Drone? That sounds familiar.

As far as shooter games go, usually, guns are your limited but reliable ranged weapons(Think L4D, Consumables are your Abilities). While we do have melee, it's not as precise as necessary in most situations. The reason why Energy Leech and Nullifiers exist is because Abilities are more meant towards being something to supplement play as opposed to a foundation for play. What is this supposed to achieve really? Energy Leech and Nullifiers were added with a goal, to reduce Ability uptime and to prevent absolute reliance on Abilities. They don't achieve them that well but that's a different argument.

Ammo is already a busted system with how pickups rates and ammo consumption are all over the place. If the rate is too slow, it's a pointless system with how easily it is to get ammo back. If it's fast, you're just going to gimp Automatic weapons as they get their reserve ammo chewed through and have to spend a long time recovering it. Either way, the value it has on the power dynamic within weapons would be questionable at best, shifting poor ammo sustainable weapons further down without achieving anything else, pointless at worst.

If you want to bring relevance back to the ammo system without gimping already poor weapon groups, you actually have to look at Vacuum. The main reason why you can blitz through mashing low max ammo explosive weapon on the floor is because there is no maintenance to establish a loop of killing enemies and getting back all the ammo you need. The function of max ammo is completely useless if all ammo used can be gotten back without any active input from the player. Reconsidering ammo pickups so you can't infinitely sustain ammo with high value weapons will definitely be on the table as well. Slashing ammo drops and draining ammo works but as mentioned, it's mostly going to affect the weapons that already have plenty of problems while barely denting on the weapons that have good ammo efficiency. The last issue is that you have to overcome the problem of Recharging weapons, Ammo Mutation and at the fringe, Arcane Pistoleer completely breaking out of this loop. At this point, you're better off just disabling everything but melee.

Edited by RX-3DR
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33 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Enemies that sweep away pickups on the ground? You mean like some kind of Scavenger Drone? That sounds familiar.

As far as shooter games go, usually, guns are your limited but reliable ranged weapons(Think L4D, Consumables are your Abilities). While we do have melee, it's not as precise as necessary in most situations. The reason why Energy Leech and Nullifiers exist is because Abilities are more meant towards being something to supplement play as opposed to a foundation for play. What is this supposed to achieve really? Energy Leech and Nullifiers were added with a goal, to reduce Ability uptime and to prevent absolute reliance on Abilities. They don't achieve them that well but that's a different argument.

Ammo is already a busted system with how pickups rates and ammo consumption are all over the place. If the rate is too slow, it's a pointless system with how easily it is to get ammo back. If it's fast, you're just going to gimp Automatic weapons as they get their reserve ammo chewed through and have to spend a long time recovering it. Either way, the value it has on the power dynamic within weapons would be questionable at best, shifting poor ammo sustainable weapons further down without achieving anything else, pointless at worst.

If you want to bring relevance back to the ammo system without gimping already poor weapon groups, you actually have to look at Vacuum. The main reason why you can blitz through mashing low max ammo explosive weapon on the floor is because there is no maintenance to establish a loop of killing enemies and getting back all the ammo you need. The function of max ammo is completely useless if all ammo used can be gotten back without any active input from the player. Reconsidering ammo pickups so you can't infinitely sustain ammo with high value weapons will definitely be on the table as well. Slashing ammo drops and draining ammo works but as mentioned, it's mostly going to affect the weapons that already have plenty of problems while barely denting on the weapons that have good ammo efficiency. The last issue is that you have to overcome the problem of Recharging weapons, Ammo Mutation and at the fringe, Arcane Pistoleer completely breaking out of this loop. At this point, you're better off just disabling everything but melee.

Not having a mechanic because it will negatively affect a limited number of tools is never a good enough justification , there can be no mechanic that will be perfect for every situation for challenge.

Energy leeches can break specific playstyles for energy hungry frames , does not make their existence less effective.

It will make most range weapons unusable for a time , the ones with recharge are not the predominant ones and if it does not affect them then one bonus reason to actually use them.

i have no interest in bringing relevance to Ammo system , i have an interest in making things interesting.

Arcane pistoleer exists more to counter Pax charge , and is limited to pistols as of now ,

Yes we already have a means to counter the ammo suck in typical fashion DE created a solution for a problem we didn't have ,

now lets make a problem so its worth using it more 😈

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Laughs in melee aka the highest damaging weapon class in the entire game

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yeah, it's kinda pointless honestly, and just punishes those that want to have fun with ammo hungry weapons like Wraith Twin Vipers. no thanks.

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Posted (edited)

If spamming ammo pad was taken out of game and having a 20-30 second cool down with max 10-20 pads per mission. This in itself would create players to stop random firing and learn how to effectively use the melee block, bullet jump, and dodging mechanics of the game.

Edited by kwlingo

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Then you'd just have what was happening with self-damage.

To avoid the drawbacks of self-damage, players just used Warframe abilities instead, make ammo the problem, people will go back to melee spam.

Fixing the problem can't be done from the symptoms alone, it takes getting to the heart of the problem which is the fact that many of the game mechanics themselves are far too easy to ignore and still succeed with minimal (if any) effort.

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30 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

If spamming ammo pad was taken out of game and having a 20-30 second cool down with max 10-20 pads per mission. This in itself would create players to stop random firing and learn how to effectively use the melee block, bullet jump, and dodging mechanics of the game.

No, it actually wouldn't. Unless ammo limitation was absurdly low it wouldn't change anything due to missions being too short for ammo to really be a limitation, with only a few exceptions. Even taking "endless" missions into account, the vast majority of people don't stay there for all that long.

Limiting ammo also has absolutely nothing to do with melee block, you can't even manually block unless you fully engage in melee which most people who favor gun-play aren't going to even be doing, and requiring melee be used is honestly the dumbest thing ever, and I'm someone who only uses guns when forced to. Bullet jumping/rolling is not a necessity not due to a lack of ammo limitation, but all to do with the game's mechanics. Most enemies are non-threats, and shield gate made dying less of a thing.

I honestly don't even understand this obsession with limiting how other people play under the false notion of GaMePlAyBaLaNcE~@!!. Our max damage after mods could be reduced to 1 damage per hit and it would have 0 difference in the difficulty of the game, all this accomplishes is making any mission that doesn't function like Spy (0 kill required) slower. Warframe has never been a mechanically intensive game.

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Something I realized while doing an endurance run is that its already really easy to run out of ammo.

I kinda wondered why the ammo replenish while holster and other ammo mods even existed, but they're actually really useful in higher levels. 

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16 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have been reading through a lot of posts that emphasised of "balance" and "challenge " in the game. 

Balance is a chimaera! Was one, is one and will be one for all times. 

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4 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

I honestly don't even understand this obsession with limiting how other people play under the false notion of GaMePlAyBaLaNcE~@!!. Our max damage after mods could be reduced to 1 damage per hit and it would have 0 difference in the difficulty of the game, all this accomplishes is making any mission that doesn't function like Spy (0 kill required) slower. Warframe has never been a mechanically intensive game.

Actually Dev team have stated they have made the mistake of creating overly powerful Nukers and CC for the entire map a poor design in game. If they were to change this all the power freak players will cry and leave the game. lol So they will not take it out. DE sees the problem but for some odd reason not the power fantasy, unlimited map nuking, room CC and 200 ammo, health, energy pads a problem. I mean just look at the last update, they were trying to patch infinite health healing to objectives. I don't think you see the problem DE even sees that they made.

Yes it's fun but brain dead and that is why so many vets have left the game.

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3 hours ago, kwlingo said:

why so many vets have left the game.

Nobody can play the game for 20 k hours... Everyone leaves at some point. 

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