Digital Extremes Statement + Livestreams

[Shinobu_Scorpion]

23 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Agreed, to an extent. The looting and violence is bad.

However, the reason that protests are escalating is due to two significant reasons:

1. The Police are escalating the violence & even instigating in some places
2. The 'system' has repeatedly failed to administer justice befitting of crimes perpetrated by police officers.

The worry is that 'Yes, the system succeeded this time but it will go back to exactly the way it was tomorrow' because that would not be progress, nor would that be justice.

The fact that you still call these protests... burning and looting is not what you do during a protest. These are riots. If they were actually peaceful protests, I'd be 100% behind them right now, but what is being practiced now is anarchy and chaos. I fail to see how burning down and ruining small businesses will help anyone's case for the pursuit of "equality and justice." This isn't the way to go about doing this, and it is going to do absolutely nothing but make things worse.

[Letter13]

2 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

I'm sorry, I really am. But please don't quote MLK in bad faith. Martin Luthor King didn't want anything to be about race. MLK fought for years for ALL people to be treat as equal. When you quote MLK and begin putting the difference OF race into a discussion or argument you are going against his teachings. Most importantly MLK wanted there to be peaceful protests. I only intended to make one post to this topic and be as neutral as possible but seeing a forum Moderator, someone who is meant to be looked up to by everyone disrespecting Martin Luthor King's message then I am sorry, but I am offended. These riots will only reverse the work MLK worked so hard for.

I think you're not understanding something, I am very much against rioting and violent protests, just as I am against the looting.

I'm not using MLK Jr. to justify the violence or the riots, I am using a quote from him as an example of why the Black Lives Matter movement isn't about justice only for Black people. It's about justice for all people.

1 minute ago, Shinobu_Scorpion said:

The fact that you still call these protests... burning and looting is not what you do during a protest. These are riots. If they were actually peaceful protests, I'd be 100% behind them right now, but what is being practiced now is anarchy and chaos. I fail to see how burning down and ruining small businesses will help anyone's case for the pursuit of "equality and justice." This isn't the way to go about doing this, and it is going to do absolutely nothing but make things worse.

And, as I said, I am very much opposed to the rioting and looting and violence. However dismissing all of what's happening as rioting would be a mistake. There are plenty of peaceful protests regarding this that are also occurring, which I do support.

[RivaAurelius]

2 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

I think you're not understanding something, I am very much against rioting and violent protests, just as I am against the looting.

I'm not using MLK Jr. to justify the violence or the riots, I am using a quote from him as an example of why the Black Lives Matter movement isn't about justice only for Black people. It's about justice for all people.

Maybe I'm just being silly, but if a movement is about justice for all demographics of people, why would they use a modifier that narrows it down to one demographic? 

[(PSN)corpusbonds]

Yikes. Imagine thinking lives are political.

 

[Letter13]

7 minutes ago, DeusTurbo said:

Maybe I'm just being silly, but if a movement is about justice for all demographics of people, why would they use a modifier that narrows it down to one demographic? 

Because, unfortunately, racism is still very much a thing in society. And it is because of this racism that these injustices are more frequently perpetrated against people of color.

In an ideal world and an ideal society, yes, 'All Lives Matter' would be the best slogan to use. But our world and our societies are far from ideal, and the 'All Lives Matter' slogan has been co-opted as an Anti-Black-Lives-Matter (or 'Black Lives Don't Matter') criticism of the desire for equal rights and equal justice.

[RivaAurelius]

4 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Because, unfortunately, racism is still very much a thing in society. And it is because of this racism that these injustices are more frequently perpetrated against people of color.

In an ideal world and an ideal society, yes, 'All Lives Matter' would be the best slogan to use. But our world and our societies are far from ideal, and the 'All Lives Matter' slogan has been co-opted as an Anti-Black-Lives-Matter (or 'Black Lives Don't Matter') criticism of the movement.

So when people protest the unjust killing of someone who isn't black, should they still be using the slogan "Black lives matter"? Edit: For example when Derek Chauvin murdered a native american in 2006. 

Further more, do you believe the movement is above criticism? While the moral ideal of the movement is admirable, they do not have a perfect record. 

[Jarriaga]

Just now, DeusTurbo said:

Maybe I'm just being silly, but if a movement is about justice for all demographics of people, why would they use a modifier to narrow it down to one demographic? 

Don't bother. The "All lives matter" message has been rejected as a bad faith deflection. The burning house analogy is used as well to shut it down because you can't make a logical statement about taking care of both houses when only one is on fire without looking heartless or privileged or blind. It's a moral trap that only serves to make you look bad for not giving priority to the movement as they present it (The burning house as opposed to any house equally because they are not the one on fire and the one that needs help).

Even the mods present the argument from a strictly moral position in which you are to "self-reflect" if you don't agree with the message. My way or the high way. You can't not agree and not be a bad/uneducated person. You are not allowed to point out the double standard. And you won't see DE staff make a post when the next cop brutality victim happens to not be of African decent.

The existence of this thread has made me angry. The moral lecturing chasing you no matter where you go. The mod said that if you don't like it you can ignore it while ignoring that just checking staff responses was going to lead here with no warning. 

[Letter13]

3 minutes ago, DeusTurbo said:

So when people protest the unjust killing of someone who isn't black, should they still be using the slogan "Black lives matter"? Edit: For example when Derek Chauvin murdered a native american in 2006. 

Further more, do you believe the movement is above criticism? While the moral ideal of the movement is admirable, they do not have a perfect record. 

For that, yes, the BLM slogan would apply. However that was also before the Black Lives Matter slogan came about.

As for criticism, it depends. Criticism that completely dismisses the movement? Yes, it is completely above that. Criticism about the slogan being used to justify violence? No, that criticism is entirely warranted.

[RivaAurelius]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Don't bother. The "All lives matter" message has been rejected as a bad faith deflection. The burning house analogy is used as well to shut it down because you can't make a logical statement about taking care of both houses when only one is on fire without looking heartless or privileged or blind. It's a moral trap that only serves to make you look bad for not giving priority to the movement as they present it (The burning house as opposed to any house equally because they are not the one on fire and the one that needs help).

Even the mods present the argument from a strictly moral position in which you are to "self-reflect" if you don't agree with the message. My way or the high way. You can't not agree and not be a bad/uneducated person. You are not allowed to point out the double standard. And you won't see DE staff make a post when the next cop brutality victim happens to not be of African decent.

The existence of this thread has made me angry. The moral lecturing chasing you no matter where you go. The mod said that if you don't like it you can ignore it while ignoring that just checking staff responses was going to lead here with no warning. 

What saddens me more is the censoring of legitimate questions about the state of the game in this thread. Another thing that saddens me is that room is not created for nuance in this discussion. It is very much a George Bush attitude of "With us or against us" on both sides. 

[HolySeraphin]

People: I don't want social discussions like racism on "my" game. (which isn't theirs, but Digital Extremes's)

Also people: Why DE is only talking about this now? They have double standards. They should give attention to every race and group whenever and whatever happens to them. So they need to cover the chinese, the white people being killed, etc, etc.

Talk about double standards (facepalms)

[RivaAurelius]

14 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

For that, yes, the BLM slogan would apply. However that was also before the Black Lives Matter slogan came about.

As for criticism, it depends. Criticism that completely dismisses the movement? Yes, it is completely above that. Criticism about the slogan being used to justify violence? No, that criticism is entirely warranted.

Why does the BLM slogan apply to someone who is NOT black being murdered by the cops? Doesn't that erase a facet of their identity? Why not "Native Lives Matter"? When police are killing innocent people of ALL ethnicities, why isn't it about the people vs the state? 

[Helminth]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Even the mods present the argument from a strictly moral position in which you are to "self-reflect" if you don't agree with the message. My way or the high way. You can't not agree and not be a bad/uneducated person. You are not allowed to point out the double standard. And you won't see DE staff make a post when the next cop brutality victim happens to not be of African decent.

Honestly that is just ridiculous nothing is above criticism. You cant demand a conversation and action then actively shut it down when you hear an option you do not like. This kind of attitude is how change never happens because people will never be willing to talk about it in any sort of negative light because they are afraid of being labeled "uneducated" or something worse just for having any sort of criticism. People are allowed to have a difference of option and are allowed to talk about it. 

[PainTako]

8 minutes ago, Helminth said:

Honestly that is just ridiculous nothing is above criticism. You cant demand a conversation and action then actively shut it down when you hear an option you do not like. This kind of attitude is how change never happens because people will never be willing to talk about it in any sort of negative light because they are afraid of being labeled "uneducated" or something worse just for having any sort of criticism. People are allowed to have a difference of option and are allowed to talk about it. 

Criticism against a group I have good experience/thoughts on is never allowed, criticism against a group I have bad experience/thoughts on is always allowed.

 

Issue is, there is the slogan BLM, but also the organization BLM. As L13 puts it.

The Org itself is not concerned with anything aside from the black community, but L13 is saying the slogan applies to all races when it comes to injustice. If you do not believe what I said:

Black lives matter's website about page:

Quote

...Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes

 

[Phatose]

28 minutes ago, DeusTurbo said:

Maybe I'm just being silly, but if a movement is about justice for all demographics of people, why would they use a modifier that narrows it down to one demographic? 

The obvious reason is that there's a perception injustice for that one particular demographic is actually occurring at rates above the average for all demographics.  If I'm walking down the street with a sign that says "Stop doing X!", the rational explanation is that I believe X is happening.

That's rather the whole point of BLM - it exists as a movement because there as so many instances of black lives being treated as if they don't matter.

It's also why "All lives matter" as a response is so problematic - the whole point of the movement is that all lives are not being treated as if they matter.

[Helminth]

1 minute ago, -dicht.Akemi- said:

Criticism against a group I have good experience/thoughts on is never allowed, criticism against a group I have bad experience/thoughts on is always allowed.

Well said, when i do not like something feel free to riot and burn things down but when i like it you better dare not even speak about it. Its honestly the biggest double standard.

[Captain_Vien]

You guys are acting like supporting this makes you above criticism. Not supporting your actions doesn't equal racism and I will continue to detest this injustice till we get a statement about Hong Kong and a donation, considering your parent company Leyou directly benefits from the mass oppression of the people of Hong Kong, you have no reason not to.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 hours ago, -dicht.Akemi- said:

Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes

Exactly  right, BLM was never about all races. They are only about the black race, 1 race. That makes them a racist, or black supremacist. 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

I fully condemn the violent acts of the police, both in Floyd's death and the the assaults on peaceful protesters, but I also agree with Voltage: the forums is not the place for this, even from DE themselves.

Just as with those police, the rules must apply to everyone, even those in power. And the rules on the forums are clear: no political speech.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Exactly  right, BLM was never about all races. They are only about the black race, 1 race. That makes them a racist, or black supremacist. 

Oh, god, I'm gonna have to be that guy, huh?

ahem

The term "black lives matter" does not mean "black lives matter more than other lives". The African-American community felt so oppressed by modern society that it felt the need to display that "black lives matter as much as other lives". 

Just because a community is comprised primarily of a singular race doesn't make it "racist" by definition.

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, (PS4)corpusbonds said:

Awesome that you’re doing this.

Also @Letter13, respect. For many reasons.

^^

[PainTako]

9 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Oh, god, I'm gonna have to be that guy, huh?

ahem

The term "black lives matter" does not mean "black lives matter more than other lives". The African-American community felt so oppressed by modern society that it felt the need to display that "black lives matter as much as other lives". 

Just because a community is comprised primarily of a singular race doesn't make it "racist" by definition.

Yup, my comment was about that BLM is (apparently) both a slogan and an org. I think an org wanting to fight injustice that happens to one race is fine, I also think a company wanting to support it is fine. I support BLM from the standpoint that I do not want anyone to face injustice, my race or otherwise. However, if BLM ever goes to a black supremacy (which I do not think they have) then I will not support them.

 

I do not want to see political stuff on forums as I do not like hypocrisy or selective censorship, allowing BLM support (which is political) but disallowing All Lives Matter, is in itself either hypocrisy (if DE does not want any politics on the forums) or censorship (as they are removing anything DE does not agree with). I would rather see none of it on warframe forums. If DE made a post on their official website (that isn't warframe) or on their twitter I would have no complaints.

[CuChulainnWD]

57 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Because, unfortunately, racism is still very much a thing in society. And it is because of this racism that these injustices are more frequently perpetrated against people of color.

In an ideal world and an ideal society, yes, 'All Lives Matter' would be the best slogan to use. But our world and our societies are far from ideal, and the 'All Lives Matter' slogan has been co-opted as an Anti-Black-Lives-Matter (or 'Black Lives Don't Matter') criticism of the desire for equal rights and equal justice.

Racism is a thing against all people in all societies. Not just people of colour. Check out South Africa. Racism will never be completely irradiated anywhere. It is much less in certain countries over others. Hence so many PoC flock to North America. In any world All lives matter is the ideal. It is heresy to say that All lives matter is an anti black lives matter movement. Why? Because ALL lives matter. that means all people in the human race.

That is why I am saying honour George Floyd. It has not be determined if RACE was the issue in his death. It  may well have been. It does not make all cops and all police forces in the US racist institutions either as many in the #BLM movement would have many believe. Calling for the death of police personal.

[Helminth]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Oh, god, I'm gonna have to be that guy, huh?

ahem

The term "black lives matter" does not mean "black lives matter more than other lives". The African-American community felt so oppressed by modern society that it felt the need to display that "black lives matter as much as other lives". 

Just because a community is comprised primarily of a singular race doesn't make it "racist" by definition.

I hate to say it take one look at twitter and you will see plenty of people angry at white people and blaming them as a whole. The most common response is "well not all are like that". Well as the old saying goes one bad apple ruins the bunch. If people are going to apply that same mentality to all police then the same must be done on the opposing side otherwise its just a double standard.

[Crevab]

You're not "that guy" LeBlingKing,  it's been mentioned before.  The All Lives Matter people just ignore it because it contradicts their desire to be victims

[Shinobu_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

And, as I said, I am very much opposed to the rioting and looting and violence. However dismissing all of what's happening as rioting would be a mistake. There are plenty of peaceful protests regarding this that are also occurring, which I do support.

Allow me to concede that point to you along with an apology. I do recognize that there are still peaceful protests going on among all this madness, and I support them as well. I'm admittedly frustrated and angry because lately I've been getting labelled as a white supremacist and racist for speaking against the riot part of this situation (mainly followed by the BLM slogan), so my temper got the better of me for a minute. 

However, I still don't think this situation was handled well and worded a little poorly. As it stands now, it sounds as though they are in support of everything that is happening in response to this. It would do them better to at least condemn the riots and specify their support for the peaceful protests. Because right now it just serves as fuel for the fire to be taken and used negatively.