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(PS4)Wil_Shatner_face

Another Thread About Challenge in Warframe

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This is going to be another thread about adding challenge to the game, but I want to start by saying that I think it’s good that most of the game is easy. So much of the game is grinding/farming and that content should be easy so you can grind/farm efficiently. I also understand the reasons behind making content accessible to new players. Not mad about it.

That being said, the end goal of all that grinding and farming is to acquire as much power as possible. And there are 40+ warframes to apply that power to, all with unique abilities and all requiring varying degrees of skill to master. So much time and effort goes into designing these warframes, and yet for some reason the game only gives you one game mode, arbitration’s, where you can kind of test the power of those frames. And some would still argue that those are too easy.

With all of those unique warframes and all of the unique ways you can build them, Warframe has an incredible amount of variety and complexity in the power that it gives to the player. So much so that it almost feels contradictory not to give the players one game mode that actually tests the limits of that power.

I think the new hard and UH hard mode are a great step in the right direction because you will actually need to carefully construct your builds to be effective in MOT + 100 levels. I truly believe all this game is missing is that one game mode, like Raids for example, where you need close to maxed out gear to succeed. Something to strive for while you’re accumulating all that power. I love the game as it is but for me that would push it from a 9.5 to a 10. I’d love to hear you guys’s thoughts on this and how you think they could implement this kind of game mode.

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It’s impossible to create challenge in a variety game like Warframe without creating a very strict META. This argument about challenge will never end I am afraid.

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9 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

It’s impossible to create challenge in a variety game like Warframe without creating a very strict META. This argument about challenge will never end I am afraid.

Is it really? Then how do you explain the amount of whining, and complaining, about things being too hard, that always ends up resulting in content difficulty being nerfed? 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

It’s impossible to create challenge in a variety game like Warframe without creating a very strict META. This argument about challenge will never end I am afraid.

I disagree. The content doesn’t have to require you to use the Bramma. There are other weapons that can kill things outside of meta weapons. You see a variety of weapons and frames in arbitration’s, this would not be any different.

Edited by (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face
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47 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

It’s impossible to create challenge in a variety game like Warframe without creating a very strict META. This argument about challenge will never end I am afraid.

Right now, yes, but that's really only because of the absurd degree of power creep making it so any kind of meaningful 'challenge' being ability-ignoring bullet sponges. Anything else can just be pretty casually disregarded (and even that's not really all that tough thanks to the strict meta).

This is pretty much due to the fact that most of our abilities and weapons have no weaknesses, no drawbacks. Equinox's Maim, for example, passively deals damage in AoE, bypassing line of sight, and builds up damage with every kill to a hypothetically-infinite damage explosion - again bypassing line of sight. Mesa's an aimbot, Limbo functionally deletes defence objectives and Invisibility functionally deletes the enemy's AI. Most of these are based on an honestly-antiquated energy system that treats 'Infinite Power' and 'Running fast' as identical.

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Then, explain how you make it so it's not trivial for 300% strength chroma with whatever meta weapon for this season and not being impossible for the other warframes and weapons

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Challenge/Difficulty in warframe should be about knowing the mechanics of a fight and doing the boss mechanics well. When Eidolons first came out, no one knew what to do. Raids needed you to do specific things at specific times. That's what we need in warframe, not cranking up the time to kill on trash fodder enemies.

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This is not even funny anymore... 😑

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The higher you set the bar the more you exclude from being viable.

This is why the huge power gap that currently exists between weapons and Warframes are inhibiting things, you either design for the top 1% of power and cause a one-note meta where only the best weapons/frames can even try, or you have that 1% of power trivialize everything to the point where the difficulty doesn't exist if that top 1% shows up. Currently we're in option 2.

The third option nobody wants to discuss or admit exists is LOWERING THE INSANE POWER GAP in order to keep the wider variety of options available without compromising the potential challenge because one weapon/frame does everything with no effort. We went over this in another huge thread so I won't go much deeper than that, but suffice to say that you won't see a challenge until the trivializing factors are addressed, simply because designing for that top power curve would have a severe ripple effect throughout the entire game, making weapons that are already considered MR fodder even worse by comparison than they already are.

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Posted (edited)

There are some things that would be impossible to implement into a game like this, yes. But it’s not impossible to implement a game mode where your build needs to be close to optimized to kill things effectively. Arbitration’s are close already, especially if you do a long run.

This hypothetical non-existent game mode might still be easy for players that insist on following the super strict meta, But for 95% of the games gear it could be a lot of fun. We don’t need dark souls level challenge, we just need something that can test the power of our gear. Perhaps I am delusional but it doesn’t feel like it should be that difficult.

Edited by (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face

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4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The higher you set the bar the more you exclude from being viable.

This is why the huge power gap that currently exists between weapons and Warframes are inhibiting things, you either design for the top 1% of power and cause a one-note meta where only the best weapons/frames can even try, or you have that 1% of power trivialize everything to the point where the difficulty doesn't exist if that top 1% shows up. Currently we're in option 2.

The third option nobody wants to discuss or admit exists is LOWERING THE INSANE POWER GAP in order to keep the wider variety of options available without compromising the potential challenge because one weapon/frame does everything with no effort. We went over this in another huge thread so I won't go much deeper than that, but suffice to say that you won't see a challenge until the trivializing factors are addressed, simply because designing for that top power curve would have a severe ripple effect throughout the entire game, making weapons that are already considered MR fodder even worse by comparison than they already are.

Option 3 would be great but I don’t see why they can’t work something out around option 2. If players want to trivialize the content with their super meta gear, let them. I’ve never touched the Bramma because personally I don’t find that style of play to be fun. The obvious drawback here is when you end up in a group with someone using that super meta gear and they trivialize the content for you, but hey nothing is perfect. Design the challenge around the 95% and let the 5% do as they will. Is this too unrealistic?

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Adding mutators to levels together  with increased difficulty could be a good way to add challenge. It may narrow the meta but there are enough frames to have a few variety.

But it will depend on how it is done : some nightmare or sortie modifiers are not fun (no shield, no energy, only 1 weapon... should be kept to random activities, not base didficulty), then "fluff" mutators can lead to turn a mission into a chore (Eris with low gravity could be consistent but no one would play it).

What could be ok is for example Timed or eximus stronghold for exterminate and capture and manual hack only for rescue and spy

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Option 3 would be great but I don’t see why they can’t work something out around option 2.

Because option 2 is greatly limiting the options that DE has to produce a challenge.

In order for the Wolf of Saturn Six to not die in seconds he had to be Status Immune, Ability Immune, Crowd Control Immune, AND have a trio of literally unkillable mooks to even pose a threat (and some players were nuking him in sub-2 minutes even through his broken multiplayer scaling).

The insane power levels that players can reach are forcing DE to design exceptions to the rules just to keep things alive for more than 20 seconds and this is causing negative impacts on things that AREN'T on that same level. Status immunity means that Viral/Slash can't melt things, but also means that less powerful status can't even have their limited utility. Ability immunity means that Mesa can't right-click and kill a boss, but also means that every other frame with less powerful abilities can't use them for their utility.

The simple state of the game is that players have so much literally broken power that the only way content doesn't explode is by making things immune to everything that is broken, which as stated, hurts more than just what is trivializing everything.

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3 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Because option 2 is greatly limiting the options that DE has to produce a challenge.

In order for the Wolf of Saturn Six to not die in seconds he had to be Status Immune, Ability Immune, Crowd Control Immune, AND have a trio of literally unkillable mooks to even pose a threat (and some players were nuking him in sub-2 minutes even through his broken multiplayer scaling).

The insane power levels that players can reach are forcing DE to design exceptions to the rules just to keep things alive for more than 20 seconds and this is causing negative impacts on things that AREN'T on that same level. Status immunity means that Viral/Slash can't melt things, but also means that less powerful status can't even have their limited utility. Ability immunity means that Mesa can't right-click and kill a boss, but also means that every other frame with less powerful abilities can't use them for their utility.

The simple state of the game is that players have so much literally broken power that the only way content doesn't explode is by making things immune to everything that is broken, which as stated, hurts more than just what is trivializing everything.

I’m picking up what you’re putting down now. So what if they implemented things into the hard mode to counter that insane power? Bring back self damage only in hard mode to counter the Bramma and explosive weapons. Make nuke frames like Saryn and Equinox require LOS for their abilities, only in hard mode. Don’t nerf things so that they effect the rest of the game, but nerf them in the hard mode to balance things out. This has probably been discussed in other threads but I don’t have time to read everything so apologies if I’m repeating ideas.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I’m picking up what you’re putting down now. So what if they implemented things into the hard mode to counter that insane power? Bring back self damage only in hard mode to counter the Bramma and explosive weapons. Make nuke frames like Saryn and Equinox require LOS for their abilities, only in hard mode. Don’t nerf things so that they effect the rest of the game, but nerf them in the hard mode to balance things out. This has probably been discussed in other threads but I don’t have time to read everything so apologies if I’m repeating ideas.

What would be the point in this? You suggest to choke a race car on a race track, but let it keep full power on a highway.

Edited by ShortCat
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9 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

What would be the point in this? You suggest to choke a race car on a race track, but let it keep full power on a highway.

The point would be to give people a game mode that’s actually challenging, but it’s obviously not ideal for the reasons you just stated. I’m just spitballing here man.

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1 hour ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

Adding mutators to levels together  with increased difficulty could be a good way to add challenge. It may narrow the meta but there are enough frames to have a few variety.

But it will depend on how it is done : some nightmare or sortie modifiers are not fun (no shield, no energy, only 1 weapon... should be kept to random activities, not base didficulty), then "fluff" mutators can lead to turn a mission into a chore (Eris with low gravity could be consistent but no one would play it).

What could be ok is for example Timed or eximus stronghold for exterminate and capture and manual hack only for rescue and spy

Mutators on levels aswell as on the mobs like normal arpgs would be the easiest and best solution. They can just take a look at the map system from Path of Exile and the Danger Room from the now dead Marvel Heroes for ideas to map mutators. Then they can look at borderlands, path and diablo for mob mutators i.e affixes, then apply that to WF with the appropriate elements.

Eximus units could easily be turned into a more lethal unit that provides a massive amount of mutators to mobs around it. A viral eximus for instance could make all enemies around it immune to the damage and status effect of it, while also letting them inflict viral damage. The eximus itself could also be strengthened by incoming viral damage on himself and the mobs he buffs. This would lead to a far less mindless gameplay apporach since it would effectively punish spamming, while also promoting a diverse kit of weapons. 

Of course this wouldnt be added to the normal star chart, but it would be something fitting for hard and ultra hard mode, with more mutators added for each mode. Kinda like how Borderlands starts out forgiving the forces you to specialize more and be more aware of what damage types you bring aswell as having a viable slag source. Or how higher torment levels in D3 adds more affixes to elite and champion packs.

Then when it comes to map mutators, Marvel Heroes had some great ones that really switched up which hero to play when. Like No-healing mutators, but in return you got a crapload of extra health. Then they had the no med-kit one, which pretty much explains itself. In WF that could easily be set to "no gear items". WF could also add "no operator" where you'd only get the passive focus school bonuses but access to no operator arcanes or get out of jail operator card. Though such "advanced" mutators would be better locked behind a new mission type system similar to maps of path of exile, where we find an item to open a specific mission with specific mutators on it. Having it on every single mission on a specific node on a planet would get old. The appeal of them in PoE and Marvel Heroes was that you could avoid them.

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Another thread where OP manually sets text color and screws with darker forum themes.

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44 minutes ago, Mephane said:

Another thread where OP manually sets text color and screws with darker forum themes.

I just copy pasted a note from my phone. Had no idea it would mess with “darker forum themes”. Chill out bro.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I just copy pasted a note from my phone. Had no idea it would mess with “darker forum themes”. Chill out bro.

I'm not your bro, pal

Seriously though, it has become an annoying trend recently. Generally, it is best not to copy external formatting into web frontends, as you often don't know what your post ends up looking like for other users using various themes, app, browsers etc. Just unformatted plain text and let

Edited by Mephane

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I think adding more modes has all kinds of great benefits. I saw a reference to similar ideas posted here as well, about throwing in really hard mechanics to the HM as time passes, etc. The tools exist for the game to have a more challenging HM. I will play those modes.

If DE puts more powercreep into the HM rewards, then they shoot themselves and the players in the foot, IMO, yet there are plenty of players that "won't touch it" without 'proper' rewards, which is just defeating the entire purpose of it, IMO, just advancing the hamster wheel.

I see a shiny slot machine where I can relax and kill pixels and get dopamine hits from random drops, like pretty much all video games of this nature, kill pixels to kill more pixels, and in all of these GaaS slot-machine games, at some point, the challenge evaporates, even IME when playing against other humans, I don't expect DE and WF to solve these 'human condition issues'.

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4 minutes ago, Mephane said:

I'm not your bro, pal

Seriously though, it has become an annoying trend recently. Generally, it is best not to copy external formatting into web frontends, as you often don't know what your post ends up looking like for other users using various themes, app, browsers etc. Just unformatted plain text and let

Get over yourself.

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29 minutes ago, Mephane said:

I'm not your bro, pal

Seriously though, it has become an annoying trend recently. Generally, it is best not to copy external formatting into web frontends, as you often don't know what your post ends up looking like for other users using various themes, app, browsers etc. Just unformatted plain text and let

I did not know that and I appreciate you making me aware! Sorry for the eye sore I created.

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28 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I think adding more modes has all kinds of great benefits. I saw a reference to similar ideas posted here as well, about throwing in really hard mechanics to the HM as time passes, etc. The tools exist for the game to have a more challenging HM. I will play those modes.

If DE puts more powercreep into the HM rewards, then they shoot themselves and the players in the foot, IMO, yet there are plenty of players that "won't touch it" without 'proper' rewards, which is just defeating the entire purpose of it, IMO, just advancing the hamster wheel.

I see a shiny slot machine where I can relax and kill pixels and get dopamine hits from random drops, like pretty much all video games of this nature, kill pixels to kill more pixels, and in all of these GaaS slot-machine games, at some point, the challenge evaporates, even IME when playing against other humans, I don't expect DE and WF to solve these 'human condition issues'.

Personally I would not give 2 S#&$s about the rewards if it was a really fun game mode. Playing the awesome game mode would be the reward, and the purpose of playing it would be to challenge yourself and have fun. We have tons of rewarding game modes, having 1 single game mode that solely exists to challenge the player and nothing else doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me, but I know a lot of players do not see things this way.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Personally I would not give 2 S#&$s about the rewards if it was a really fun game mode. Playing the awesome game mode would be the reward, and the purpose of playing it would be to challenge yourself and have fun. We have tons of rewarding game modes, having 1 single game mode that solely exists to challenge the player and nothing else doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me, but I know a lot of players do not see things this way.

It's just so hard to please such a large base of divergent players, IMO.

I play these games for relaxation and fun. 

I am fully aware that such things are extremely subjective.

There are those that define fun in ways that I find tedious and I am sure what I find fun, someone finds boring, etc.

I understand that once I have all the things, that I then have to make my own fun in these types of games, but I know so many people push what I think should be personal responcibility, in this case finding something fun to do, onto a game company, to make it the games company's 'fault' that as a player, one simply exhausted what the company has to offer them as a gamer and that one sometimes has to make ones own fun.

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