Better AI, plz! part 1: invisibility

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

Veteran Warframe players have been asking for challenge for quite a while. I believe that challenge can be added by some very simple tweaks to enemy AI: behaviors, tactics, tools and abilities of the enemy.

I want to have multiple different discussions about how AI could improve, but here I will only cover one sub-topic: invisibility.
I have frequently used invisibility frames and, I have to admit, it feels like a cheese mechanic....in a way that doesn't match with anything approaching realistic behavior.

To start off with, I'll use different words to refer to enemy behavior...
-"alerted": enemy unit has seen a threat (warframe) and attempting to attack and will likely run towards the last seen location. May alternatively run away or towards the alarm system.
-"suspicious": enemy knows something suspicious has happened, will point weapon in direction of suspicious activity and may slowly walk towards it.

THE PROBLEM:

Enemies are completely oblivious when a warframe goes invisible.

They do not respond to the sound of footsteps going past. They frequently stand there dumbfounded in one spot when a frame goes invis right in front of them (then carry on with normal life a moment later). Even when an invis frame starts beating people up in front of them or shooting a weapon, it only piques their curiousity.

The only way to die currently while invisible is if an enemy shoots at something else *behind you*. Enemies will never respond directly in any meaningful way when you 1) should be heard and 2) they can see the awful effects of what you're doing in front of them and 3) *we* can visibly see that invisible is like "thermoptic camouflage" in sci-fi: when you're close to it, you can *see* that *something* is moving.

Additionally, the insane cheese of invisibility makes other abilities, like Banshee's silence, almost completely pointless.

To put it in perspective, just think about the movie "Predator". The alien was invisible almost the entire movie. The commandos knew they were being attacked. They'd spray bullets, stop, listen, react, look for the tiny visual clues, etc.

SOLUTION:
Some simple tweaks can make a more reasonable experience....

1) If the player is *heard striking* literally *anything*, the enemy's curiosity automatically piqued. 100% chance to look in direction of it. Small chance to become suspicious (increasing as level goes up), which means a chance of going towards the sound.

2) Shooting a weapon (EDIT: not silenced) always arouse suspicion but also has a chance to alert *briefly*. Small chance the enemy units may fire back randomly in the direction the gunfire was heard. Shooting within a foot of an enemy unit will trigger a melee attack or fugue.

3) A unit getting killed in front of comrades currently *only* arouses suspicion. More action would make sense. Units should have a chance to *run* towards the action (increasing with level) and/or a very small chance of melee attack at the location of death (increasing in level) and/or a very small chance of randomly discharging firearm in general direction briefly. In other words, seeing magical dismemberment should trigger a brief state of alarm in that enemy.

4) *Touching* a *human* enemy unit should always provoke suspicion *and* have a chance (increasing in level) to make that unit do one melee attack towards the touch. (What would *you* do if something invisible brushed against you?) I'll leave it up to the lore to say how robotic units "feel" things....

5) Octavia's third ability should provoke suspicion any time it's in use and in range of an enemy unit. I don't understand how the staff of a secret military base would experience a magical floating boom box and think "that's perfectly normal".

6) If I'm running, footsteps should be *heard* (suspicion!). If I am *walking*doing anything that makes sound, footsteps that sound *should still be heard* as long as it is an extremely close distance! Ivara shouldn't be able to walk a tight circle one foot around an enemy and have him be completely oblivious!

7) At very *close range*, enemy units should be able to see a *visual distortion* of the invisibility and become *suspicious*! Standing one foot in front of an enemy's face and they can't see any warped visual cue? That's just ridiculous.
If you want a time gate (lowered based on level) could be imposed before they get suspicious.

8.) All of these behaviors should be heightened (more violent) if the base or area is alerted.

9) Robotic units should have the *option* (especially when base/area is in alert) to use sensors that don't rely on the human visual spectrum. This could be accompanied by a delay or visual cue, etc. This should *at least* arouse suspicion if it successfully looks towards the player.

10) Dogs can *smell*! How is it I can walk all around these attack dogs and they never smell anything suspicious? There should be an interval or timed chance or *something* that lets dogs get suspicious of a warframe's smell right next to them.

Any of these heightened responses could be thought of as very, very short alert modes if needed.


OUTCOME:
Invisible frames should try to actually *be sneaky*! Keep your distance from foes unless you plan to hurt them. Be mindful of the sound you make all the time. It's not a free ticket to literally do anything.
If someone sees you kill their friend, they will run towards their chopped-up friend. If they then bump up against you, you will feel the butt of their rifle. Their surprise will cause a normal reaction, causing more to happen, causing more freakout. These events can cascade with more enemies around if the player is not careful, especially at high level.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
The invis cheese is world breaking. I like feeling powerful in game, but I also enjoy feeling like I earned it. When we insert lazy cheese as a normal mode of the game, it breaks that sense of adventure in a game where I actually *want to feel immersed* in this world.

EDIT:  DO NOT just post a comment saying "that's not how it works" without any details or helpful explanation. I have already posted comments about my testing in the Simulacrum, my testing in Sorties, my experiences across many hours with various invis frames in any/all missions. If *you* have different experiences, then you can give us the relevant details of your testing: which frame did you use; in what mission; how many people in your squad (hint: be solo); which enemies; what was your activity; what was the enemy behavior..... There is a lot of nay-saying from folks that don't want to make the effort to understand the problem, don't properly read the details that I present and do not make helpful assessments. That behavior is not constructive and ignorant of the effort I have already put into this.

EDIT2: TL;DR for everyone not reading the comments:  I tested Ivara, Ash, Loki and Octavia extensively in the Simulacrum, in Sorties and in regular missions. The following behavior always exists (with one exception): NOTHING will cause an "alert" state *while invisible*! The enemy will never shoot, strike, sound an alarm or do anything else actually risky while you touch them, strike them, shoot them, jump around them or teabag them while you're invisible. The highest state of alert achievable is suspicion during that time. Translation: being invisible means no consequences (excepting any actions of your squadmates).

(The one exception: Loki and Ash may potentially cause an unusual/buggy state of alert by *activating* the ability anywhere within a certain range, even when not visible to enemies.)

Edited July 13, 2020 by (PS4)SchemeBag

[KittySkin]

Im not against this idea, it needs to be worked up, but AI alone its not the only thing that actually needs to be changed.

BTW as long as I know, megathreas its a tag that can only be used by moderators.

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

22 minutes ago, KittySkin said:

Im not against this idea, it needs to be worked up, but AI alone its not the only thing that actually needs to be changed.

BTW as long as I know, megathreas its a tag that can only be used by moderators.

Thanks, @KittySkin. Still learning the ropes here. Updated tags.

[KittySkin]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

Thanks, @KittySkin. Still learning the ropes here. Updated tags.

you are welcome. Im not 100% sure, but have seen a lot of times people corrected that so I guess its a thing. It would be fantastic if a mod can actually confirm or deny this

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

The main problem I have with this is the number of riven and Nightwave challenges that this would break. A lot of those require enemies to never go into the alert stage, and with your suggestion Ivara's sleep arrow or Equinox's rest would be the only way to complete it, instead of the multitude of ways it can be done now.

Edited June 2, 2020 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

9 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The main problem I have with this is the number of riven and Nightwave challenges that this would break. A lot of those require enemies to never go into the alert stage, and with your suggestion Ivara's sleep arrow or Equinox's rest would be the only way to complete it, instead of the multitude of ways it can be done now.

Or just wait until the enemies were looking the other way. Sure, depending on the frame and the tactics available to you, it may take a little bit longer.

I actually used to think (for a long time) that seeing a fellow killed would alert any guard. It takes a little extra forethought and actually looking around. It's not a crazy task. 

To be even more frank about it, this is a game about space ninjas. If I try to find *any* game where the ninjas are *less* stealthy, it would probably only be Ninja Gaiden (which requires intricate parkour and a very high skill level, much more than this game). Why pretend to have stealthy ninjas when it becomes apparent how world-breakingly dumb the enemy is?

You mention Nightwave (which only requires around half the objectives to eventually get ALL the rewards) and rivens (which are *endgame*). I think those *should* have a challenge and not need to be achievable by absolutely everything in every conceivable way.

Or even better, they could just make it a *temporary* alert state or just *freaked out* state, not counting towards those challenges. I just called them all "alerted" *because* the enemy only has two very distinct states of being right now.

Edited June 2, 2020 by (PS4)SchemeBag

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

13 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The main problem I have with this is the number of riven and Nightwave challenges that this would break. A lot of those require enemies to never go into the alert stage, and with your suggestion Ivara's sleep arrow or Equinox's rest would be the only way to complete it, instead of the multitude of ways it can be done now.

Slightly edited part of my post to account for what you said.

[elmetnuter]

Tell me if I am wrong, I think you are looking for more "realism". And I don't think it's the right answer, in any video games, ever. Rules and logic only belong in that space, even in Metal Gear Solid - to the point of being either stupidly difficult or downright masochistic.

Being invisible in Warframe is almost "God mode" because that is exactly what it is suppose to do, albeit some limitation coming of slow movement (Ivara), sensor triggering, sound being heard (Ash), Camera visibility but no sensor triggering (Limbo), etc.

All your points to increase the sneak difficulty are just destroying it by making almost impossible to remain silent and/or invisible by moving a toe.

In your final words, you say that you want to feel immersed and I understand that. My opinion is that there is no need of 12 levels of alert states within one game mode applied by the player style. Immersivity is different from realism and realism is not what a video game is. Games like MGS are build solely on that premise and that's why they can go further that what Warframe is proposing.

EDIT: I love Warframe as much as you do, and like you I think it can benefit for more polish and more depth in some gameplay area. I hope I haven't misunderstood you.

Edited June 2, 2020 by elmetnuter

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

14 minutes ago, elmetnuter said:

Tell me if I am wrong, I think you are looking for more "realism". And I don't think it's the right answer, in any video games, ever. Rules and logic only belong in that space, even in Metal Gear Solid - to the point of being either stupidly difficult or downright masochistic.

Being invisible in Warframe is almost "God mode" because that is exactly what it is suppose to do, albeit some limitation coming of slow movement (Ivara), sensor triggering, sound being heard (Ash), Camera visibility but no sensor triggering (Limbo), etc.

All your points to increase the sneak difficulty are just destroying it by making almost impossible to remain silent and/or invisible by moving a toe.

In your final words, you say that you want to feel immersed and I understand that. My opinion is that there is no need of 12 levels of alert states within one game mode applied by the player style. Immersivity is different from realism and realism is not what a video game is. Games like MGS are build solely on that premise and that's why they can go further that what Warframe is proposing.

EDIT: I love Warframe as much as you do, and like you I think it can benefit for more polish and more depth in some gameplay area. I hope I haven't misunderstood you.

I don't remember it being 12 states. Not even sure the total potential actions would come close to that.

And "destroying it"? That's what you call trying to fix it?

You really seem to like "God mode". You maybe like a game that requires very little human function to play.

A lot of the warframe community has already derided invis, to the point where anyone using invis from operator abilities are/were frequently derided as cheesers. But all invis is cheese right now.

Nothing about this game is screaming "realism" by how we live. But it needs to 1) be at least *slightly* challenging (or I will get bored and leave, along with many others who have been on a long time) and 2) must be plausible within its own world. It's just like movies that do ridiculous stuff. I don't care if its a fantasy or a sci-fi, if you do stuff that still seems ridiculous *in your own universe*, then why am I supposed to keep tuning in? The ridiculousness breaks the fantasy by replacing it with what I now see as very fake cutouts.

Furthermore, this just seems to jump on the "gets in the way of my grind" argument. If the grind is lame, what's the point of getting the reward? If the entire game is that same type of grind (thoughtless and unprovocative), then how does anyone get enjoyment out of that? The reward is a means to do more of the same in the same way....but that "more of the same" needs to be enjoyable and merit the use of "more".

Edited June 2, 2020 by (PS4)SchemeBag

[Kainosh]

1 hour ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The main problem I have with this is the number of riven and Nightwave challenges that this would break.

DE would never add anything that would break stuff too hard.   You are being overprotective here.

Don't immediately naysay...even if some parts of this suggestion seem off, its not a bad one in general.

Some of it would really make Warframe better. 

 

Personally, I like 3, 7 and 9.

1 is ok....But I would limit it only to containers.  Also Exploding barrels do not alert anyone....Like...That totally feels off. They should alert stuff.

1 hour ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

Enemies are completely oblivious

 4 and 10 already happen.  And enemies do react on projectile hits near them.

Audible footsteps is a bad idea.  Stealth will not be as "ninja"...gotta be able to move fast. 

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

11 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

DE would never add anything that would break stuff too hard.   You are being overprotective here.

Don't immediately naysay...even if some parts of this suggestion seem off, its not a bad one in general.

Some of it would really make Warframe better. 

 

Personally, I like 3, 7 and 9.

1 is ok....But I would limit it only to containers.  Also Exploding barrels do not alert anyone....Like...That totally feels off. They should alert stuff.

 4 and 10 already happen.  And enemies do react on projectile hits near them.

Audible footsteps is a bad idea.  Stealth will not be as "ninja"...gotta be able to move fast. 

I guess the main problem is the word "alert". I want them to *do something*. But I don't need them "alerted" as in call the cavalry, need backup! I just want an actual reaction! Just like any "wtf" moment that makes us jump in real life...doesn't mean we call the cops at each one, right?

Also, if footsteps weren't supposed to be audible....then why banshee?

Edited June 2, 2020 by (PS4)SchemeBag

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

14 minutes ago, Kainosh said:

 4 and 10 already happen.  And enemies do react on projectile hits near them.

I've never had anyone swat at me as I invis grind on him.

I've never had a dog get spooked as I practically step on his tail behind him.

I know that enemies get suspicious briefly if you touch them, but that's kinda pointless.

[elmetnuter]

"I don't remember it being 12 states. Not even sure the total potential actions would come close to that." That was a figure of speech to say "too much".

"And "destroying it"? That's what you call trying to fix it?" You ain't no developer and you don't know what the engine is capable of - furthermore, it is only your interpretation of a better experience, that again I don't discard but I don't see the value of, in the context of Warframe, and that's my opinion also. You are not fixing thing things, you are giving your input based on your general understanding of video games. I respect your dedication and opinion but don't mistake it for "fixing' things unless you get to work at DE. You ain't the savior of Stealth and posting in feedback does not make your ideas more interesting, especially when you walking on the tangent of calling "fixes" improvement and suggestions.

"You really seem to like "God mode". You maybe like a game that requires very little human function to play." Excuse me? On what assumption? I like any sort of games, whether they are challenging or not. Do you disregard peoples opinion because they may enjoy something more relax that having a dog sniffing you under your invisibility cloak?

"Nothing about this game is screaming "realism" by how we live. But it needs to..." I agree with all of this but Waframe is not a movie, it's much more complex and requires way more suspension of disbelief as many other games that claim and propose "realism" as a base of building their world. I thought you would get why I referenced Metal Gear Solid there.

"Furthermore, this just seems to jump on the "gets in the way of my grind" argument." I have never made that point claiming this nor that I have even suggested it. I don't know why you would assume that.

I made it clear that I respect your opinion but that I dislike your suggestions and explained why, in my time of playing Warframe, I see next to little interest having such a system in place.

---------

EDIT: Two things will happen, you will either play the game and understand over time the game limitations and gameplay choices or be forever unsettled by it.

I have played video games for almost 40 years now, and one thing is clear - there is no perfect world building nor there is even real immersion, it all depends on how you decide to have fun and suspend your disbelief - It requires understanding and acceptance and it requires to really dive deep and long into a game to see what is actually really lacking, and for Warframe, stealth is the last of the problems.

EDIT 2: You have barely touch and you want to conform it to many other games out there. Just get a solid grip of it first, please.

Edited June 3, 2020 by elmetnuter

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

1 hour ago, elmetnuter said:

"I don't remember it being 12 states. Not even sure the total potential actions would come close to that." That was a figure of speech to say "too much".

"And "destroying it"? That's what you call trying to fix it?" You ain't no developer and you don't know what the engine is capable of....

 

EDIT: Two things will happen, you will either play the game and understand over time the game limitations and gameplay choices or be forever unsettled by it.

I have played video games for almost 40 years now, and one thing is clear - there is no perfect world building nor there is even real immersion, it all depends on how you decide to have fun and suspend your disbelief - It requires understanding and acceptance and it requires to really dive deep and long into a game to see what is actually really lacking, and for Warframe, stealth is the last of the problems.

EDIT 2: You have barely touch and you want to conform it to many other games out there. Just get a solid grip of it first, please.

I love it when people say "you ain't no developer". Are you? Because if you were: first, legit surprise; second, you certainly misrepresent yourself and should check how you respond to the playerbase. I do write code for a living, so please don't condescend with your passive-aggression like I just don't grok the Matrix. If you *did* work on the game, then you'd be saying "the Unreal engine doesn't allow for an extra object that signifies an extra set of actions even if that sounds silly".... Do *you* work on the game? Does your vague, assumptive answer mean you know something actual and specific about the engine? Do *you* work with that part of the engine? And it sounds like we're near the same age, so take the "wise experience of your general gaming" somewhere else. Have a specific, constructive thought or go condescend elsewhere.

"No perfect world building"? You ignore others' thoughts by using the "perfect solution fallacy"? Because....*ahem* what I wanted was "good".....y'know, not baaaaaaaad as it is now.

"You barely touch and want to conform it". If that's what you mean take lessons from other places and try to make it suck less, then yes.

That was a lot of nay-saying. Nothing much useful, though.

 

[elmetnuter]

1 hour ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

I love it when people say "you ain't no developer". Are you? Because if you were: first, legit surprise; second, you certainly misrepresent yourself and should check how you respond to the playerbase. I do write code for a living, so please don't condescend with your passive-aggression like I just don't grok the Matrix. If you *did* work on the game, then you'd be saying "the Unreal engine doesn't allow for an extra object that signifies an extra set of actions even if that sounds silly".... Do *you* work on the game? Does your vague, assumptive answer mean you know something actual and specific about the engine? Do *you* work with that part of the engine? And it sounds like we're near the same age, so take the "wise experience of your general gaming" somewhere else. Have a specific, constructive thought or go condescend elsewhere.

"No perfect world building"? You ignore others' thoughts by using the "perfect solution fallacy"? Because....*ahem* what I wanted was "good".....y'know, not baaaaaaaad as it is now.

"You barely touch and want to conform it". If that's what you mean take lessons from other places and try to make it suck less, then yes.

That was a lot of nay-saying. Nothing much useful, though.

 

I am truly sorry to have bothered you by absolutely disagreeing with your ideas and challenging you further. 

[Althaline]

15 hours ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

1) If the player is *heard striking* literally *anything*, the enemy's curiosity automatically piqued. 100% chance to look in direction of it. Small chance to become suspicious (increasing as level goes up), which means a chance of going towards the sound.

Ugh, no thanks. Making all actions alert the enemy sounds tiring and boring.

 

15 hours ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

2) Shooting a weapon always arouse suspicion but also has a chance to alert *briefly*. Small chance the enemy units may fire back randomly in the direction the gunfire was heard. Shooting within a foot of an enemy unit will trigger a melee attack or fugue.

3) A unit getting killed in front of comrades currently *only* arouses suspicion. More action would make sense. Units should have a chance to *run* towards the action (increasing with level) and/or a very small chance of melee attack at the location of death (increasing in level) and/or a very small chance of randomly discharging firearm in general direction briefly. In other words, seeing magical dismemberment should trigger a brief state of alarm in that enemy.

Silenced weapons are a thing. I believe the enemy already shoots at loud noises from invisible targets, but I usually play Ivara if I'm going sneakily. Also, immediate response to the death of an enemy just makes stealth finishers unusable. Not ideal.

 

15 hours ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

4) *Touching* a *human* enemy unit should always provoke suspicion *and* have a chance (increasing in level) to make that unit do one melee attack towards the touch. (What would *you* do if something invisible brushed against you?) I'll leave it up to the lore to say how robotic units "feel" things....

Touching enemies while invisible already alerts them. Also, even if you're going for realism here, do you immediately strike any weird chills you get on your arm with the nearest sword? Didn't think so.

 

15 hours ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

6) If I'm running, footsteps should be *heard* (suspicion!). If I am *walking*, footsteps *should still be heard* as long as it is an extremely close distance! Ivara shouldn't be able to walk a tight circle one foot around an enemy and have him be completely oblivious!

Ew. Ew. Ew. The whole point of Ivara is that she's sneaky. Next you'll be saying that she shouldn't be able to pickpocket enemies without them noticing. What do you have against Ivara, anyway?

 

15 hours ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

7) At very *close range*, enemy units should be able to see a *visual distortion* of the invisibility and become *suspicious*! Standing one foot in front of an enemy's face and they can't see any warped visual cue? That's just ridiculous.
If you want a time gate (lowered based on level) could be imposed before they get suspicious.

Sure, let's just make invisibility do nothing, why not. Have you ever seen anything invisible? No? Maybe that's because it's invisible.

 

15 hours ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

9) Robotic units should have the *option* (especially when base/area is in alert) to use sensors that don't rely on the human visual spectrum. This could be accompanied by a delay or visual cue, etc. This should *at least* arouse suspicion if it successfully looks towards the player.

10) Dogs can *smell*! How is it I can walk all around these attack dogs and they never smell anything suspicious? There should be an interval or timed chance or *something* that lets dogs get suspicious of a warframe's smell right next to them.

These opinions are running under the assumption that a Warframe's invisibility is purely visual. Void magic covers these too.

 

15 hours ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

Invisible frames should try to actually *be sneaky*! Keep your distance from foes unless you plan to hurt them. Be mindful of the sound you make all the time. It's not a free ticket to literally do anything.

And your 3 friends who are sprinting through their ranks will mess all of this up for you. On top of balancing energy requirements, you now want to ensure that invisible frames can't actually go down a hallway towards the objective because there are 3 dogs at various spots down it. The maps are too tight and linear for these kinds of hyper-advanced stealth mechanics. Sure, the enemy should maybe spray a few bullets a couple of moments after they see an ally go down, but your overhaul is ridiculous, excessive, and unnecessary.

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

2 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Ugh, no thanks. Making all actions alert the enemy sounds tiring and boring.

 

Silenced weapons are a thing. I believe the enemy already shoots at loud noises from invisible targets, but I usually play Ivara if I'm going sneakily. Also, immediate response to the death of an enemy just makes stealth finishers unusable. Not ideal.

 

Touching enemies while invisible already alerts them. Also, even if you're going for realism here, do you immediately strike any weird chills you get on your arm with the nearest sword? Didn't think so.

 

Ew. Ew. Ew. The whole point of Ivara is that she's sneaky. Next you'll be saying that she shouldn't be able to pickpocket enemies without them noticing. What do you have against Ivara, anyway?

 

Sure, let's just make invisibility do nothing, why not. Have you ever seen anything invisible? No? Maybe that's because it's invisible.

 

These opinions are running under the assumption that a Warframe's invisibility is purely visual. Void magic covers these too.

 

And your 3 friends who are sprinting through their ranks will mess all of this up for you. On top of balancing energy requirements, you now want to ensure that invisible frames can't actually go down a hallway towards the objective because there are 3 dogs at various spots down it. The maps are too tight and linear for these kinds of hyper-advanced stealth mechanics. Sure, the enemy should maybe spray a few bullets a couple of moments after they see an ally go down, but your overhaul is ridiculous, excessive, and unnecessary.

 

First off, I'm starting to doubt you read half my post or the examples I put in there about invisibility. No other game (or movie) makes invisibililty the kind of free-for-all that it is here. I think you just want it to stay the same so you can breeze through a game with no effort (which is what it requires now).

I said hitting things would make enemies *suspicious* not "alerted". Also, they already do that for some sounds, but it is so cherry-picked that it doesn't make sense. EDIT: FFS, hitting means HITTING, not shooting. If the invisible man started banging a pipe against everything in your house, you'd be....suspicious.

And "void magic" sounds like the rift. It also sounds like quite an assumption. If you want to make that assumption, maybe go write lore for DE. Limbo already exists for "pocket dimensions". Ivara doesn't jump into the rift. If they want to add lore to why the rift or why invisibility ("because something-something void") and what limitations that has, they could do so. Maybe not explain the multiverse for them.

And "sure, let's make invisibility do nothing"? That's hyperbole from me saying "do *something*". The only thing that I mentioned warranting an attack (one melee hit) was touch. (If I'm alone and something keeps touching me, I will swat the air.) I'm open to caveats on that. Everything else is basically just heightened suspicion. I think you went a bit overboard with your assessment.

If, for whatever reason, Ivara is so sneaky that her tiptoeing cannot be heard, then fine. Now explain why Octavia can literally flip circles around them. That's my point. It's a free-for-all. No limits at all = so cheap.

And yes, I'm sure you can manage it so you don't step on a dog. If you think that's near impossible, then it doesn't seem any effort has gone into your playthroughs. And if you have to kill a patrolling dog, chances are you just have to roll out of the way before bystanders come rushing that way. It's not rocket surgery and definitely not "hyper-advanced stealth mechanics". Have you seen enemies when they get suspicious? They still move slowly and do close to nothing. Yet you are acting like that's game over. C'mon, let's be reasonable here....

Edited June 3, 2020 by (PS4)SchemeBag

[Keiyadan]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb (PS4)SchemeBag:

The only way to die currently while invisible is if an enemy shoots at something else *behind you*. Enemies will never respond directly in any meaningful way when you 1) should be heard and 2) they can see the awful effects of what you're doing in front of them and 3) *we* can visibly see that invisible is like "thermoptic camouflage" in sci-fi: when you're close to it, you can *see* that *something* is moving.

well i had alot of enemys shoting at me while i was invisible and nothing was in the line of fire and did not make any sound but the at the moment it is fine for me nothing to mutch out of the blue shooting at me at the moment maybe this is because i dont need to go to that places anymore but i cant say if its still there

 

[rikimaru6811]

you can try again when they reduce the number of enemies and add real ragdolls  that you can drag and hide in the dark. And when they make a new stealth-oriented game.

good try though, OP. I wonder what Saryn's braps smell like lol.

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

51 minutes ago, rikimaru6811 said:

you can try again when they reduce the number of enemies and add real ragdolls  that you can drag and hide in the dark. And when they make a new stealth-oriented game.

good try though, OP. I wonder what Saryn's braps smell like lol.

Their dead meat disappears in a second. Not sure what you're getting at with that....

[Althaline]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

Their dead meat disappears in a second. Not sure what you're getting at with that....

Corpses take more than 5 seconds to disintegrate, and with the loss of Channelling there is no longer an easy way to accelerate this removal. Enemies become alerted upon seeing a corpse, making chaining stealth kills very difficult even while invisible.

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

2 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Corpses take more than 5 seconds to disintegrate, and with the loss of Channelling there is no longer an easy way to accelerate this removal. Enemies become alerted upon seeing a corpse, making chaining stealth kills very difficult even while invisible.

Are you talking about the current game state? Because here's how the current game state currently is:

Enemies do not get alerted at all when passing by their friends dead meat. At all. Not even suspicious.

Enemies only get *suspicious* when they see their buddies getting chopped up *in front of them*. Still not alerted.

You can go invisible and spam melee through an entire mission and not alert anyone. Maybe they assume "ah, we spontaneously fall into pieces... C'est la vie...."

 

[Aedwynn]

13 часов назад, (PS4)SchemeBag сказал:

Are you talking about the current game state? Because here's how the current game state currently is:

Enemies do not get alerted at all when passing by their friends dead meat. At all. Not even suspicious.

Enemies only get *suspicious* when they see their buddies getting chopped up *in front of them*. Still not alerted.

You can go invisible and spam melee through an entire mission and not alert anyone. Maybe they assume "ah, we spontaneously fall into pieces... C'est la vie...."

 

Then this may be a difference between PS4 and PC, because currently on PC:

1) Enemies are suspicious when you touch them in stealth

2) Enemies are suspicious when they see corpses, hear gunfire/bullets hitting surface near them/other enemie's screams.

3) Enemies are suspicious when they see warframe from a distance and close in to investigate

4) Alerted enemies do fire in general direction of where shots are coming from, or where they think you are  - like last spot you've been.

BUT, lighting conditions and other stuff determine actual distances from which they react to specific stuff. Calm enemy may pass by a corpse that's lying in deep shadow but will spot and become suspicious to one laying in the open.

I strongly suggest to read warframe wiki on stealth first, to learn what's actually in game.

Also, you are not suggesting fixes (they are aimed at bugs and not intended behaviour) - you are suggesting improvements at best (most of which are already in the game).

Freshly spawned enemies breaking stealth combo because they aren't actually calm until a few seconds pass - that is a bug, and needs a FIX.

Multishot kills not counting as stealthy - not intended behaviour (I guess), and needs a FIX.

Making dogs sniff you out in stealth - suggestion.

If we take a look at stealth system, you need to differentiate between stealth gameplay and invisibility.

First is a game system, second is a tool/game mechanic.

Any warframe can be stealthy by sticking to dark areas and using silenced weapons or melee stealth kills. Honestly, current stealth system is lacking, but that's due to actual problems in other fields, so they need to be adressed first.

As for Invisibility, it just helps to be stealthy. If you think it's a god mode, you are wrong.

• There are enemies that spam AoE that you aren't protected from( and some do that on death or just spread aura ),
• There are enemies that ignore/disable warframe powers,
• Even if you are invisible, if you are swarmed by 50 enemies that are so tough it takes dozens of seconds to kill one, then benefits of being invisible drop to - "at least i'm not dead yet". It won't help you defend objective or control that spot in the slightest. 

There are plenty other ways to cheese game, so don't blame invis for making certain things easier. In the end, it doesn't matter, whether you kill stuff from Invis unpunished (to a certain degree in a certain setup) or any enemy entering 40m range evaporates due to AoE spam or CC'ed unable to do a thing - it's Power Fantasy (aka current META) issue, not a stealth system's or Invisibility's.

If we want a better stealth system, first we need a better spawn system so enemie's don't appear from thin air behind your back or right in front of you or spawn inside objects. You probably don't remember, but initially exterminate missions were stealth friendly mission type where there was a set number of enemies on map. You had to kill them all, with additional enemies spawning when alarm goes off, adding to number enemies you have to kill. But it was changed because game couldn't spawn needed number of enemies and it ended in 99/100 kills with no enemy on map.

[Steel_Rook]

On 2020-06-03 at 1:56 AM, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

You really seem to like "God mode". You maybe like a game that requires very little human function to play.

20 hours ago, (PS4)SchemeBag said:

I think you just want it to stay the same so you can breeze through a game with no effort (which is what it requires now).

Honestly, saying stuff like this isn't going to make for a great discussion. If you want people to engage with you, maybe give us a reason to believe that invisibility is an actual issue. Straw men about what you think people secretly want and appeals to popularity by citing your unspecified friends who'll also quit Warframe if your demands aren't met don't make for a convincing argument.

[_Mannaroth_]

I'm not sure about this.

This whole idea just seems to be a huge nerf to invisibility and as we all know: People hate nerfs.

I mean, I'd be totally fine with some more challenging gameplay - if it matches the rewards. But needing to spent 15min or more in a spy mission - carefully watching the paths of enemies, taking down one by one and avoiding any suspicion - just for some credits, a bit of Endo and a relic? No thanks.

I mean: What does stealthy gameplay offer more than some Exp due to finisher kills, easy going in spy missions and survivability in endless survival above 2h (what most of the player base does never attempt anyway)? Is that enough to justify longer and harder missions?

 

As you said:

Am 2.6.2020 um 23:06 schrieb (PS4)SchemeBag:

enjoy feeling like I earned it

Give me something to earn and I gladly take the challenge.