Corrosive status effect became completely outclassed and needs a 2nd pass

[Xolgys]

Am 4.6.2020 um 21:16 schrieb Famecans:

broh, sorry disagree but it doesn't change much in the game, it will just DE mess things up again

you will always build the damage pyramid in which the main damage type is the most dominant, if corrosive or magnetic becomes the most dominant you will prioritize all your builds for the most dominant damage, and if all types of damage are balanced and efficient everything will equal and everything will be like the damage of the truth

if DE created mods to convert percentage of damage A to damage B everything could be different

someone needs to do a well-structured topic explaining this to DE, I don't have much experience with English

impact and puncture dont matter at all, u just want them as low as possible, 0 at best. heat has no place in there when u use viral/slash or HM/viral, it will just delude the proccs. we had this discussion in another thread and ur pyramid would be fine if it actually was expressive but i wonder why u insist on spreading that picture when all it really does is confuse ppl who dont know the dmg system at all.

u never want everything to be equal because usually everything is limited to a certain function for proper balancing reasons, like corrosive should be universally great against armor, which it is not currently and thats one of the big issues for why viral(/slash) is absolute meta. there will always be "better" and "worse" but the issue is the gap right now and lack of real choice and diversity. when everything but viral/slash is as bad as it currently is due to unjustified nerfs then theres no real choice anymore.

same goes for gas. its just average at best against most things. even against corpus its not worth going for it and the only thing that really makes it worth considering against corpus at all is its AoE. magnetic was bad before, so it didnt change and is excused...kind of. gas was awesome before, so here again one huge nerf for no reason.

 

[George_PPS]

Corrosive should be restored so it could totally strip armor like before. 

[TheWhitterMatter]

On 2020-06-08 at 8:52 AM, Xydeth said:

heat has no place in there when u use viral/slash or HM/viral, it will just delude the proccs

That's not entirely true, I see your point, but heat strips armor too. I'm fairly certain that effects how much damage viral will do in the end.

[ShortCat]

22 hours ago, TheWhitterMatter said:

That's not entirely true, I see your point, but heat strips armor too. I'm fairly certain that effects how much damage viral will do in the end.

There is no need for Heat in a Viral/Slash build, becasue you do not need to reduce armor in the first place. Viral procs are there not to boost direct damage, but to increase Slash proc damage, which ignores armor entirely. It is not Vitral that does the work, it mostly boosts other damage sources. Thus in a Viral/Slash build you are better off boosting either the proc chance or magnitude of already existing procs. Additional elements, like Heat, are utilized to boost Condition Overload and are mostly used on a utility weapon you carry with you.

The Viral/Heat cookie-cutter build various YTuber spread is working fine on the star chart, becasue enemies are weak.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

Corrosive still kills everything, just not as fast as viral. If anything, the game could use more corrosive (and viral) resistant enemies.

Meanwhile... impact, puncture, cold, blast, magnetic, and gas are all still literal garbage.

[Graavarg]

One thing to notice is that addressing/analysing status/damage only from a meta-perspective (max damage/max killing potential) leads to a pretty narrow view. While all (or close to) can agree that it is good to keep up the changes and to have one (or a couple) meta-built weapon(s) in each class, the idea that you would always use the same setup on all weapons in all situations is a bit excessive (to put it mildly).

The amount of damage you can dish out is more than sufficient for all "normal play", so killing enemies in 0.1 or 0.2 seconds or with 10k or 100k extra damage (over the hp limit) is, let's say academically interesting but not of significant practical use. If you're into special missions (like endurance runs, to name an example), where you might actually meet high level enemies scaling beyond the "normal" weaponry, yeah, using the right weapon & build becomes more significant. But testing weapons on such enemies in the simulacrum is not as informative as one might think, if you don't actually meet them during play.

I am well aware of the current meta, and I use viral/slash (or 100% crit/viral/Hunter Munitions) on some high fire-rate weapons, but I also mod for a lot of different stats depending on how I want to play. I find that I get a lot more out of the game going for playstyle-dependent builds and/ or building on weapon strength. Gas is actually quite fun to use (but gas cloud graphics suck), Kuva Ogris with heat and Nightwatch Napalm (and Firestorm & Amalgam Furax Body Count) is glorious. And high status radiation can be used to create enemy-slaughtering monster units (with high fire rate) or enemies group-killing each other (area effect). It might not fit the "kill everything as fast as possible"-style of playing, but it allows a more chill playstyle (proc'ing radiation from a distance) regardless of (normal) enemy level. Just to name a few examples.

My point is not that there is anything wrong with maximising damage output (by selecting the right status combo for the weapon in question), there isn't, such min-maxing is an inherent and important part in all games where stats play a part. The point is rather that there is  lot (A LOT! 🙂) more to the game, to damage, status and killing enemies than meta-builds. And if you look at the game from that perspective, diversity is much more important than equalising the damage/dps/killing per time-potential of different status effects (which was the heading for this thread). If every status effect was equally effective against a lvl 120 Heavy Gunner in the simulacrum, status would be become meaningless. My opinion is that Warframe is much better game with a large variety of status effects, if you want the meta you can go with viral/slash, but if you want to proc gas clouds on a group of enemies and watch them drop like flies (after a while) you can do that too.

[TheWhitterMatter]

On 2020-06-11 at 5:22 AM, ShortCat said:

There is no need for Heat in a Viral/Slash build, becasue you do not need to reduce armor in the first place. Viral procs are there not to boost direct damage, but to increase Slash proc damage, which ignores armor entirely. It is not Vitral that does the work, it mostly boosts other damage sources. Thus in a Viral/Slash build you are better off boosting either the proc chance or magnitude of already existing procs. Additional elements, like Heat, are utilized to boost Condition Overload and are mostly used on a utility weapon you carry with you.

The Viral/Heat cookie-cutter build various YTuber spread is working fine on the star chart, becasue enemies are weak.

I did't know if viral works that way with slash. I guess I'll have to look at that.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

3 hours ago, TheWhitterMatter said:

I did't know if viral works that way with slash. I guess I'll have to look at that.

It has always worked that way even before the rework. The first proc buffs all subsequent damage by 100 percent (enemies take double damage) which is functionally equivocal to halving enemy health like it used to. The rework made it stackable.

For heavily armored enemies, Slash procs deal orders of magnitude more damage than your actual hits so adding heat which dilutes your proc pool isn't a good idea.

This is most plainly demonstrated using a crit bow with Hunter Munitions against Heavy Gunners in the Simulacrum. If you proc Slash, they die in one hit. If not, they're merely tickled.

The only reasons to add heat is for Condition Overload, or your weapon can't use Bleed, but weapons that can't use Bleed got hit hard by the Corrosive nerf.

Edited June 12, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[Berzerkules]

All this viral vs. corrosive talk and I'm over here running toxic/slash melee with viral/corrosive/heat scourge. Why choose the best status type when you can use them all.

[-Kittens-]

On 2020-06-04 at 11:28 AM, Artekkor said:

Ever since the status rework i noticed that corrosion as a damage type became far less desirable on weapons with status potential.

Its still a good damage type with weapons that do not proc and just deal damage (crits, raw...) but anything that has 25%+ status chance benefits from having now overpowered viral far more.
Kuva Quartakk, Hind, Kraken and many others seem to follow this pattern. With two 60/60% status chance mods - the Viral appears to reliably outdamage Corrosion against grineer. GRINEER! A FACTION THAT RELIES ON ARMOR!

I propose that corrosion status effect needs an additional effect besides armor reduction.
My personal suggestion: how about - following the theme of compromising the target's defenses - it should also increase critical chance against the target? Lets say +5% additive crit chance per proc, maxing out at +50% crit chance at 10 status stacks.

It would help the corrosion to hold at least some kind of leverage against all-destroying viral which became essentially mandatory for any weapon with faint status potential.

Viral was the strongest status until it was nerfed, now it's the strongest again, as it should be. You're just mad because corrosive was put where it used to be; as a  armor specific side grade. Viral's strength is boosing other sources, corrosion was a literal catch all lazy ass bandaid to combat completely bullS#&$ armor scaling.

Edited June 13, 2020 by -Kittens-

[Artekkor]

10 часов назад, -Kittens- сказал:

Viral was the strongest status until it was nerfed, now it's the strongest again, as it should be. You're just mad because corrosive was put where it used to be; as a  armor specific side grade. Viral's strength is boosing other sources, corrosion was a literal catch all lazy ass bandaid to combat completely bullS#&$ armor scaling.

But its not a sidegrade. Viral literally outdamages corrosion when it comes to status-capable guns. Does your guns has at least 15% status chance and has a good fire rate? Put 60/60 viral on it - instantly superior to corrosion when it comes to grineer, THE armor faction.

I don't even feel the difference when i use corrosion status builds. Even if i deal more damage, its not noticeble, unlike viral when you can immediately see and feel how the procs ruin the level 80 bombard.

Corrosion's status effect is WORTHLESS. It does jack S#&$. I don't feel any effect from it kuva lich territory enemies, from level 1 to level 5 liches.
Level 1 territory dies to anything anyway, but level 5 seems to clearly die way faster to viral - proven on Kuva Hind, Kuva Karak and Kuva Twin Stubbas.

So the question remains: why would i use corrosion on a status-capable gun? Because right now the answer is: "Don't, just put viral on it - its just better".

[-Kittens-]

I use both, depending on weapon and build and again corrosion never should been top dog in the first place and secondly throw fire and corrosion on a kuva nukor, things die just fine.

 

You've also provided zero evidence other than MUH NOSTALGIA on why corrosion should still be the only mods ever put in any weapon at any time, cause that S#&$ was boring as hell for five years.

[Artekkor]

36 минут назад, -Kittens- сказал:

I use both, depending on weapon and build and again corrosion never should been top dog in the first place and secondly throw fire and corrosion on a kuva nukor, things die just fine.

 

You've also provided zero evidence other than MUH NOSTALGIA on why corrosion should still be the only mods ever put in any weapon at any time, cause that S#&$ was boring as hell for five years.

I don't want it to be THE only mods, i want to be a viable alternative - which it isn't. Its an INFERIOR alternative. I wan't it to be equal so i had a choice. Because i prefer my bullets being coated in corrosive substance and not AIDs. Its almost a fashion choice for me, but that's besides the point.

I did a test right now in simulacrum: +60% IMPACT Kuva Karak against level 170 grineer bombard.
Standart modding: Damage, Multishot, Crits... And then two 60/60 mods. (and a fire rate, to speed up the test).

Corrosion takes ~2,5 magazines (~175 bullets) to kill a single bombard.
Viral takes ~1,5 (~105 bullets). In fact, it doesn't even need the half! In majority of cases the bombards just die to GODDAMN SLASH PROCS which drain the remaining 40% (!!) of their health bar after the first magazine.

Alright, let me find a gun that doesn't have a slash to finish the job... How about Boltor Prime? Literally 0 slash.
Viral took 6 magazines (~360 bolts).
Corrosion took 8 (~480 bolts).

Again, this is against level 170 Grineer Bombard. The most armored POS there is. THE definition of an armored unit.
Conclusion: Corrosion status effect is INFERIOR to Viral status effect when dealing with heavily armored opponents.
(Unrelated Conclusion: Slash status effect is still overpowered compared to other physicals)

If you don't see the issue here, i'm afraid we can't even continue to debate this.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Artekkor

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

16 hours ago, Artekkor said:

I don't want it to be THE only mods, i want to be a viable alternative - which it isn't. Its an INFERIOR alternative. I wan't it to be equal so i had a choice. Because i prefer my bullets being coated in corrosive substance and not AIDs. Its almost a fashion choice for me, but that's besides the point.

I did a test right now in simulacrum: +60% IMPACT Kuva Karak against level 170 grineer bombard.
Standart modding: Damage, Multishot, Crits... And then two 60/60 mods. (and a fire rate, to speed up the test).

Corrosion takes ~2,5 magazines (~175 bullets) to kill a single bombard.
Viral takes ~1,5 (~105 bullets). In fact, it doesn't even need the half! In majority of cases the bombards just die to GODDAMN SLASH PROCS which drain the remaining 40% (!!) of their health bar after the first magazine.

Alright, let me find a gun that doesn't have a slash to finish the job... How about Boltor Prime? Literally 0 slash.
Viral took 6 magazines (~360 bolts).
Corrosion took 8 (~480 bolts).

Again, this is against level 170 Grineer Bombard. The most armored POS there is. THE definition of an armored unit.
Conclusion: Corrosion status effect is INFERIOR to Viral status effect when dealing with heavily armored opponents.
(Unrelated Conclusion: Slash status effect is still overpowered compared to other physicals)

If you don't see the issue here, i'm afraid we can't even continue to debate this.

Corrosive procs are inferior to Viral procs period.

Consider at Sortie 3 level, a Heavy Gunner generally has roughly 6000 armor that translates to 95% Damage Reduction.

Damage Reduction = Net Armor/(300+Net Armor)

1 Corrosive proc reduces armor by 26% to 4440 armor which is 93.7% Damage Reduction. From 5% going through to 6.3%, is a 1.26x multiplier which is less than Viral's 2x.

10 Corrosive procs reduces armor by 80% to 1200 armor which is 80% Damage Reduction. From 5% going through to 20%, is a 4x multiplier which is still less than Viral's 4.25x at 10 stacks.

Against enemies with less armor, Corrosive procs are even worse.

Double dipping armor modifiers against Ferrite are all that save Corrosive from being dumpstered completely, but only against Ferrite armored enemies. 

Damage Modifier = (1+ Armor Modifier)*(1+Health Modifier)*300/(300+Armor*(1-Armor Modifier))

Before factoring procs against an enemy with 6000 Ferrite armor and Cloned Flesh (aka Heavy Gunner):

100 Neutral will deal 5 damage.

100 Viral will deal 8.75 damage. At 10 Viral procs, it will deal 37.2.

100 Corrosive will deal 29 damage. Almost 3x more than Viral. With 10 Corrosive procs, it will deal 87.5.

However, against Bombard with Alloy, Corrosive is only neutral while Viral will deal the same damage it does to Heavy Gunners with Ferrite.

In the case of Bombards, 100 Corrosive would only deal 5 damage and ramp up to 20 damage at 10 Corrosive procs.

 

 

[Hellmaker2004]

I would say make Corrosive strip up to 90% Armor.

The problem is where it should start at, and how much per application.
 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Hellmaker2004

[kwlingo]

On 2020-06-04 at 12:28 PM, Artekkor said:

Its still a good damage type with weapons that do not proc and just deal damage (crits, raw...) but anything that has 25%+ status chance benefits from having now overpowered viral far more.

Are you using Hunter Mutation? If your weapons can slash with Viral, Corrosive stands no chance. If the weapons doesn't slash Corrosive usually will out perform just Viral.

[Artekkor]

4 часа назад, kwlingo сказал:

Are you using Hunter Mutation? If your weapons can slash with Viral, Corrosive stands no chance. If the weapons doesn't slash Corrosive usually will out perform just Viral.

I don't. In fact i intentionally avoid using HM.  Mostly because i just don't like it. And its irrelevant anyway.

As can be seen from my experiment couple of post above - viral status build is superior to corrosion status build even if one excludes all other sources of damage like slash and heat procs.

I wonder i should put tthat experiment into OP for better visibility...

[kwlingo]

7 hours ago, Artekkor said:

I don't. In fact i intentionally avoid using HM.  Mostly because i just don't like it. And its irrelevant anyway.

As can be seen from my experiment couple of post above - viral status build is superior to corrosion status build even if one excludes all other sources of damage like slash and heat procs.

I wonder i should put tthat experiment into OP for better visibility...

This is weapon specific. I've test many weapons Corrosive vs Viral. Like I stated more than likely if it doesn't slash, Corrosive does come on top. Or even if Viral procs with heat also, it may out perform Corrosive. But if the only pros are Impact and Puncture, Corrosive will shine.

[(NSW)Blackoween]

2 hours ago, kwlingo said:

Like I stated more than likely if it doesn't slash, Corrosive does come on top. Or even if Viral procs with heat also, it may out perform Corrosive. But if the only pros are Impact and Puncture, Corrosive will shine.

 

On 2020-06-14 at 2:56 AM, Artekkor said:

Alright, let me find a gun that doesn't have a slash to finish the job... How about Boltor Prime? Literally 0 slash.
Viral took 6 magazines (~360 bolts).
Corrosion took 8 (~480 bolts).

Again, this is against level 170 Grineer Bombard. The most armored POS there is. THE definition of an armored unit.
Conclusion: Corrosion status effect is INFERIOR to Viral status effect when dealing with heavily armored opponents.
(Unrelated Conclusion: Slash status effect is still overpowered compared to other physicals).

Artekkor, this testing was done without Hunter Munitions, right?

Because if so, this shows that even without slash, "if the only pro[c]s are Impact and Puncture," Viral is still the better choice until very high levels (1000+) where 80% armor reduction is more like a 7-8x damage multiplier.

[Artekkor]

2 часа назад, (NSW)Blackoween сказал:

 

Artekkor, this testing was done without Hunter Munitions, right?

Because if so, this shows that even without slash, "if the only pro[c]s are Impact and Puncture," Viral is still the better choice until very high levels (1000+) where 80% armor reduction is more like a 7-8x damage multiplier.

Yes, of course. Literally just Serration, Split Chamber, a fire rate mod to speed up the experiment and two 60/60's to get viral / corrosion going on.
Well, and karak had standart crit mods, but that's it. No HM.

Viral Boltor Prime simply dealt more damage to a level 170 grineer bombard than a corrosion one.
+325% bonus damage to health was doing a better job than 80% armor reduction against in enemy that probably has armor in thousands. Go figure.