Riven Disposition Procedure for New Weapons

[[DE]Connor]

Greetings Tenno!

With the upcoming release of The Deadlock Protocol, we wanted to outline some further changes we are making to the Riven disposition process in response to player feedback.

When we introduced separate dispositions for each weapon variant back in November 2019, we planned to give new weapons a disposition of 1 (the “average”), or matching the lowest member of the weapon family if it already had a disposition lower than 1. Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions. We may have an idea of how popular certain weapons will be, but under this new system, waiting a few months for players to integrate the weapon into their arsenals will give us a much clearer picture, without ever having to start high and backtrack.

This change leads us directly to another common piece of player feedback: weapons with very low dispositions are sometimes not worth equipping unless you get a very good roll, and if a weapon is way off of where it should be disposition-wise, it can take several waves of changes for it to reach an appropriate power level. 

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common.

Thanks to everyone for understanding, as we make changes to help make the Riven balancing procedure a more positive experience - literally!

[Drungly]

Thanks! I'm confident this will make it more positive indeed!

[Jarriaga]

These are welcome additions. Nice!

I still don't see how this addresses cases like the Aksomati vs Aksomati Prime though. Those weapons are so close in stats that the Aksomati tends to outperform the Aksomati Prime when a Riven is involved. Regular weapons should be helped by Rivens, but they shouldn't be able to outclass their Prime versions even if by a small margin.

[-Haxboi-]

So stack up on rivens for new weapons and wait till their dispostion will be increased?
Sounds fun.

[Xardis]

Pls, stop basing disposition changes on purely popularity. It creates a cycle where all weapons worth using riven on will eventualy drop to a disposition level that is barely usable, if even, when there are weapons so weak that full 1.5 doesnt make them usable on par with unrivened weapons.

Change to start new weapon dispo at the bottom is nice, but its a placebo, the only thing that it changes is most of the people getting disappointed coz of their new weapn rivens getting nerfed again and again. Now it will only increase to that low dispo that they would drop to. The problem is that low dispo and riven usability.

[(PSN)UltroAdsunt]

I feel this is a terrible choice.

It basically means that good popular weapons will never have the chance to use a good riven as they will stay 0.5 forever.

[Hello]

 

1 minute ago, [DE]Connor said:

going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns

Why not have primary kitguns have the same dispo as secondary kitguns? They're the same weapon anyways since it will be the same chamber.You already know what will be popular or what won't be.

Regardless, I don't use rivens anymore because of dispo changes. So this doesn't affect me.

[Sevek7]

10 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common.

This is very good! Are there any thoughts about also increasing the frequency of disposition changes? It seems to me that some old weapons that were popular when rivens first came out still have quite low dispositions even though relatively few people use them these days.

[Casardis]

1 minute ago, --Brandt-- said:

 

Why not have primary kitguns have the same dispo as secondary kitguns? They're the same weapon anyways since it will be the same chamber.You already know what will be popular or what won't be.

Regardless, I don't use rivens anymore because of dispo changes. So this doesn't affect me.

They aren't the same weapon when in primary mode. If you've checked Devstream when they showed them off, they behave completely different.

[Bloop]

Will you at least update disposition for every single weapon though? I don't see this change as bad, but it's bad when in practice not all weapons get their disposition updates when the time comes.

[Revanx]

uhhhh lmao?

18 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5

sure i guess?

18 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

Thanks to everyone for understanding, as we make changes to help make the Riven balancing procedure a more positive experience - literally!

 

Have a more positive experience by starting everything negative. That's some DE logic 🤣

[saghzs]

I don't think releasing new weapons at 0.5 disposition is a good idea.

It just makes people not even want a riven for those weapons, because the stats are so low.

 

I think releasing new weapons with 0.8 disposition could be a good middleground, where you still get decent stats on the riven, but it won't outright break anything.

 

Or.. you know.. actually balance the weapons you release.

Anyone that played with the Kuva Bramma for even just 30 minutes could have told you that it is way too strong and will get it's riven disposition nerfed.

[SSI_Seraph]

Balance by popularity will never achieve any balance 😕

[---Swaggi---]

18 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5

Bad choice imo...

Oh can we have self dmg back then and get rid off that huge annoying knockdown????

Cant remember that the majority asked for that change...
 

[Fox_Populi]

Personally I'm all for this approach, hopefully this will get rid of the "WTS $newly.released.weapon riven for 20k platinum"

[lesstalkmorerokk]

So why are Rivens still being balanced based on the weapon's popularity, rather than their actual power? I'm sitting on a very underpowered Lex and an Aklex riven because every newbie has the Lex, and an immensely powerful Knell riven because the Knell is ridiculously strong but hardly used.

[An8rchy]

Stop balacing disposition with popularity

[barsiwal]

Couldn't react to the 1st post thanks to missing forum reactions, so here you go. 
I'm expressing my displeasure as I think this is a short sighted and asinine measure.
 
Please note, I'm not insulting anyone individually. I'm saying this is a dumb move.
Even good smart people make dumb decisions. This is one of them

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

I don't see why everyone's upset. Wasn't disposition always based off of usage/popularity?

And if it isn't supposed to be, what is disposition supposed to be based off of?

[LULAWS]

25 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5

wouldn't it be more productive in the long run to use the test cluster as a way for test groups to give the team a better idea of an initial disposition that isn't as useless as a 0.5 riven?

[Atsia]

Disposition has been based off both popularity and some internal powers metrics for a while now. So must of the complaining is for the same of complaining.

[(NSW)draugath]

Why aren't riven dispositions automatically updated on a monthly or other more frequent basis?  It almost seems like the dispositions are all so out of sync with reality that they should all be reset to 0.5.

[KIREEK]

11 minutes ago, [DE]Connor said:

When we introduced separate dispositions for each weapon variant back in November 2019, we planned to give new weapons a disposition of 1 (the “average”), or matching the lowest member of the weapon family if it already had a disposition lower than 1. Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

Keep in mind that it wasn't the players that created the weapons, you guys decided to introduce powerfull weapons on your own so that kuva liches were appealing and now you're fixing a mistake. It's fine but that wording gave me the impression that things just went outside your control when it is DE that makes the game

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This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions.

A single mod is not game changing, you can buff or nerf all the stats it won't make a difference.
A riven can be viewed as an all glorious thing that will certainly make you better, but the reality is that it's only a tiny fraction of the equation, you know this with catchmoon, because you kept changing the riven disposition and players kept playing as normal.

I understand the idea, but 0.5 at the start and then a 1.0 or more for certain weapons (like primary kitguns) will not be "game changing", it's a flashy statement for newer players but for me personally means very litle.

I support the decision, to me that change makes litle difference and it is indeed more conservative to avoid backlash from the players that kill enemies in the same amount of time after a disposition nerf (aka a change happened but in reality nothing changed).

Quote

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common.

 

 

You shouldn't only focus on riven disposition changes, if you guys read the forums, you'll see players adressing weapons, if they are to powerfull (no, not the bramma) or if they are mechanically weak and a trend you guys often do is to leave things, months at a time, in the same state and then when a prime access lands, the changes happen all at once.

An example was dethcube prime, as soon the prime access landed, numerous changes were made to dethcube, this entire mentality of buffing when you need to sell something and nerfs when things are no longer being aquired by the masses gives a bad taste in general, and you risk the same issue with primary kitguns, which i believe will be powerfull so that players even consider the investment, but for how long will that last until changes happen.

I also note, from my own personal experience that catchmoon isn't being used as often as before, yet it's taking a long time to even apply a single disposition chage to the riven

 

Overall, i apreciate the changes, but be carefull nontheless, don't think that just because you implement these changes that backlash will cease to happen and that you can go all in.

[Caliboom]

So that means we have to wait a literal year for the disposition of a new weapon that's weak to get boosted beyond 1.0? Setting the disposition of new weapons at 0.5 will not work unless you update dispositions more often, maybe on a monthly basis.

[SherpaRage]

This could cause some issues in the long haul. This will basically take the current cycle of release & buff/nerf and create a new cycle of release, then buff, then eventually nerf. A good amount of weapons are more popular cause they have decent to awesome riven dispos. By starting weapons at .5 dispo they will be less popular than they truly could be. As such all weapons start at .5, then get buffed then will have a spike in popularity, then most likely be on the chopping block for nerfs and now you have yet another cycle. A new cycle granted, but a cycle nonetheless. Just some food for thought as to a very real (and the most likely) out come of these changes for the starting riven dispos.