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Riven Disposition Procedure for New Weapons


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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Greetings Tenno!

With the upcoming release of The Deadlock Protocol, we wanted to outline some further changes we are making to the Riven disposition process in response to player feedback.

When we introduced separate dispositions for each weapon variant back in November 2019, we planned to give new weapons a disposition of 1 (the “average”), or matching the lowest member of the weapon family if it already had a disposition lower than 1. Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions. We may have an idea of how popular certain weapons will be, but under this new system, waiting a few months for players to integrate the weapon into their arsenals will give us a much clearer picture, without ever having to start high and backtrack.

This change leads us directly to another common piece of player feedback: weapons with very low dispositions are sometimes not worth equipping unless you get a very good roll, and if a weapon is way off of where it should be disposition-wise, it can take several waves of changes for it to reach an appropriate power level. 

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common.

Thanks to everyone for understanding, as we make changes to help make the Riven balancing procedure a more positive experience - literally!

I love this game- I've got north of 2,500 hours on steam, between hour long Mot runs and arbitrations, all the way back to my first few on earth, and every minute in trade-chat in-between. I started as a humble relic and prime junk seller, moving Valkyr prime between the relays and making plat where I could, up to now, where I hunt down and roll up rivens for friends in multiple clans and discords, and.....Its everything I can do not to laugh- Your April fools joke needs a bit of work, even after its been DElayed this hard

So, after this "Deadlock Protocol to Riven Trading" rolls out, speaking for myself here, I have no reason to care that my enjoyed weapons get primed, or that a new weapon looks kinda fun to use. You've slapped my interest of modular primaries straight across the brow, and my interest in seriously trading in this game in the face. Law of Supply and Demand be damned, we don't want people trying to get exorbitant amounts of plat for rivens. Rivens that took the time to crack open, the kuva to farm and roll, the luck and purpose of making them just a way- But how dare that value be asked from the noble buyer? This lad wants a CC/CD/MS/flawless neg Lanka, and by Jove its heresy that he ought pay for it!

Why bother building the prime or new weapon in the first month or two, while its demand and price are high?  Why should I as a player build this weapon? In cases were people like to, I don't know, sync weapon styles and warframe abilities (for more than just "bigger numbers"), a riven dispo of .5 across the board is crippling. 

As someone who WAS excited for modular primaries, I can officially say you've massively killed my interest in them already. Unless they're strong enough to kill leveled content outright, there's almost no point in me building one. Why bother, unless the weapon is going to remotely compete? "FoR tHe MaStErY!"

If it DOESN'T compete with my already built weapons, I have to find the weapon *fun* to use to want to invest in it. If I want a gun to clear content that I find fun...I have those. Already. I use them. Why should I spent plat and time and forma to make a possibly interesting weapon that's already just, worse than what I have? I'd have to really enjoy that weapon, and then its almost certain going to lose what I enjoy about it (Sonicor, for those who know, a "prime" example)

If it DOES compete with my already built weapons, how likely is it that it's disposition will rise- how likely is it that rivens will matter *at all* for the weapon? Why bother seeking a cool riven with unique stats and purposeful rolls if it amounts to being a glorified Dualstat? Why bother cracking open veiled rivens, and spending hours of farming to roll these rivens with kuva, to get it just so, when Its dispo and value and peoples interest in it will just plummet if its popular in the slightest- because widely used weapons get *tapped* with a nerf, and we're all up in arms about it. 

At BEST, maybe I enjoy the new or prime weapon, but so much of the fun and freedom rivens offer has just been kneecapped by this Protocol. Now, when a weapon I liked gets primed, or something new and shiny looks fun, I can wait 3 months while the council of popularity decides if its decent or not. If my favorite gun gets a prime, I can weigh 10% base crit and a bit more damage in exchange for a *crippling* hit to a mod I sunk time and effort into. When a cool new option for modular primaries rolls out, I can basically ignore rivens altogether, since there's no real point in bothering until its dispo settles down. 

And all of this, at the end of the day, amounts to nothing- Rivens make bad weapons decent, and good weapons stronger. Nerfing just the one mod won't kill things like the catchmoon, like others have pointed out. Dispo won't solve balance. Dispo does...nothing. All it does is screw with the market. If you're going to try and balance things, fix the weapons first, and the rivens will fall in.

The ONLY thing I can at least hope for now is that the higher level content will be worth doing, and that will influence how people use weapons and what they build them for.
If this is whole protocol is Nef Anyo's doing, he's earned my wanting to dethrone him from the corpus board- He has no idea how to run a business. 

Edited by DConagher
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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, TheLordOmega2 said:

Having rivens be additive (and apply before other mods) would be a real game changer, and would probably achieve their original goal of making every weapon viable, but that's an huge can of worms.

I'll get the can opener! Haha.

I do agree it's a potential huge can of worms, but values can be adjusted. Plus, I recall DE saying that Rivens aren't heavily considered in content balancing, and if that's the case, that leaves a fair bit of leeway. It's easier to balance "within reason" than to balance "within game parameters". E.g., 200% end-result crit chance might not be balanced in game parameters, but I don't see anything especially egregious with it.

Edited by Tyreaus
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You are putting so much effort to kill every kind of market that at this point I don't even know if you are doing it for fun or just trying to kill the game as quick as possible.

🤡

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2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

This are welcome additions. Nice!

I still don't see how this addresses cases like the Aksomati vs Aksomati Prime though. Those weapons are so close in stats that the Aksomati tends to outperform the Aksomati Prime when a Riven is involved. Regular weapons should be helped by Rivens, but they shouldn't be able to outclass their Prime versions even if by a small margin.

agreed. that equalization was total bs tbh. why would we wanna stick to the basic variant when there is a prime wich is supposed to be superior. somebody at DE totally messed up on that. hope they fix this bs asap

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Posted (edited)

WOW. And nobody in office sayd "wait a minute, we are doing some serious bs right there!"?

So, lets describe it. One game have a special mod for every weapon. This mod have a different stat for each weapon, cause some weapons are used more. So developers think bad mods will tend weapon be less used. They add new weapons, but special mod for 'em will suck, cause they are scared it will be used too much. What?

One again, what the point of prime, vandal e.t.c. version? Why it shouldn't be direct upgrade?

Maybe i'm playing a games wrong? "New weapon, cool! I want in now and fully moded" - wrong. "New weapon? Let's wait 3 months and maybe use em","Modding? Who cares, mods are only exits for semi-3D pictures"

Spoiler

I'll tell you what's wrong! Rivens.

Everything about them. In some way this post sounds good. I mean i read it and somehow does not look totally insane. But this is only because whole system is insane!

Why bad weapons exist? Why not just adding stats to low-used weapons itself? If they exist for a reason, what the point of a riven dispositions?

How is this pattern can be healthy even it theory?  — Players want OP weapon. Some weapons are not popular just becouse there is too much weapons. But with disposition 1.5 it became viable. And youtubers, or just riven market as it is make this weapon popular. Disposion get nerfed, nobody use em. How? What should i do? Pick not popular weapon and pray? And do not spread my joy for sure. Why it's sound like exploit?

You are adressing problem "rivens needs a good roll" but that's actually sound insane! Yeah, somehow this doesn't mean we are finally get a reasonable system to get a good riven, but same bs-show but with new tweaks. And tweaks are only here because you are adding new level of *********.

It's so exiting! You put so much time/money for a riven? No, nobody cares! Just wait for a PA. Maybe you pick a wrong weapon. And yeah... Do not expect Prime version, if it's luckely your favorite weapon. We nerf it inB4.

P.S. Wait, wait, listen! We have some new idea! You will be love it! We called it "pre-nerf"!

 

 

Edited by -JT-_-R3W1ND
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Just remove Disposition already. Every change DE makes to Disposition as a mechanic or Dispositions themselves will always be overall negative for the game. If you want players to have a more balanced arsenal with power, then stop releasing weapons like Kuva Bramma.

DE needs to figure out what kinda of damage ceiling is needed first.  Then everything else should fall in line.

But nah they dont want to do that. They will keep releasing broke A weapons to make that money on plat sales. Then its all oops that was unintentional.. lol /s

 

Edited by (XB1)YoungGunn82
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Sounds like a well thought out concept. Personally, I've often been slightly confused (but never concerned) that new weapons started out comparatively strong. Though I am curious if there might ever be either an automated system or more common revisions for rivens, as the changes happen somewhat rarely.

That's just a question I ask out of sheer curiosity, though.

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I'm not sure about the idea of new weapons starting at 0.5 Riven disposition. 

Their will be some pretty bad cases of non-Primed versions of the weapons being stronger than the new Prime versions of weapons due to the gap in Riven disposition between both weapons. 

Imagine for example, Corinth just being an average 1.0 Riven disposition weapon, and Corinth Prime releasing with a 0.5 Riven disposition as well as mostly being a side-grade to the regular Corinth. Riven users will mostly end up using the regular over the prime due to the gap in riven dispo being wide enough that the regular ends up being superior. 

I just don't like where this is going in the near future. 

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You guys are funny if you believe this will balance weapons and rivens.

You guys actually believe that having a riven dispo of 5/5 makes that gun usable? Really? The Stug is usable?

What you did now is not balance Rivens, but ruin Rivens for possible good weapons which we normally painstakingly farm and roll.

It's your own game DE. Stop coming up with newer methods to ruin it every 2 months.

You want to make Rivens enjoyable for everyone instead of the hardcore players/spenders, then give the option to save a stat and roll the other 3 for double the Kuva cost. Every single time you save a stat and roll the remaining, the Kuva cost doubles for the subsequent rolls.

3.5k Kuva for unsaved

7k for 1 save and 3 unsaved

14k for 2 saved stats and 2 unsaved

28k Kuva per roll for 3 saved stats and rolling the last stat.

People would not be forced to spend 30k plat for a God roll riven, but at the same time it would also not be cheap on Kuva that any casual player would be able to use it.

Think it through.

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4 hours ago, saghzs said:

I don't think releasing new weapons at 0.5 disposition is a good idea.

It just makes people not even want a riven for those weapons, because the stats are so low.

DE's intention here is pretty obvious-they don't want people spending 3000 platinum on a god roll riven for a new and super-powerful weapon, because the riven is going to inevitably get nerfed and that's going to make people feel really awful about it. Warframe riven buyers/sellers have never been really good at 'pricing in' the possibility of future balance changes, simply because pricing in future events is not particularly easy. 

Balance changes in a game like Warframe exist not only on the moment-to-moment gameplay level but also on the ingame economy level and the monetization level, and rivens starting at 1.0 had some pretty negative consequences to the monetization layer of Warframe. Sure, those consequences made DE money from the mega-whales willing to pay thousands of plat for a god roll riven, but it also could easily lead to some pretty intense bad blood and bitterness from players who didn't properly price in the possibility of future nerfs.

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4 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

There was a  great disturbance in the force, as if all eight of Tiltskillet's ripkas rivens that were awaiting a Kuva version cried out in terror...and were suddenly silenced. 

Seriously though, this seems like a good improvement.  (Or it will once me and my rivens are done crying. 😛 )  Especially if yall can do just a slightly more consistent  job of balancing weapons before release.

 I'll admit it, I read the first sentences and thought this announcement was going to be that new weapons would be released with higher dispos.   Which would have been truly horrid.

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NOT SURE YOUR IDEA, DE.

"Trading price of new weapons is not fair" is indeed. 
But, everyone wants to get Shining Something in game. 
Riven is only one of Shining for End-Gaming Players.

I note, you will take from shining everything from players.  will big MISTAKE

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Posted (edited)

I actually think this is pretty reasonable. Good on DE for making it so.

If a weapon's worth depends solely on its riven, is it a good weapon at all?

Edited by (PS4)Hikuro-93
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Kimaen_jai_Sheelal said:

Did i get it right, then new prime access releases - all new prime weapon will also have disposition 0.5? If we get, for example, prime dual zorens in future, Prime version will have 0.5 and non-prime remain 1.44?

Yes, I think that's what they mean...

THe problem i think this will cause in the future is

either

non-prime with riven will be better than primed with riven

or

Primed, vandal will give more busted increase in stat.

Both outcome, which i think are just bad.

TBH, i think all the problem with riven started with their decision to push out Rubico Prime and Redeemer Prime..

Edited by PurpledeRose
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I also quite dont understand why prime version should have less disposition then non-prime.
i mean. They are PRIME. Shiny, golden, powerful, they clearly designed and intended to be better version, but with disposition diffirences, prime and non-prime weapons... get equal?

Prime Pangolin sword 1.0 vs Pangolin sword 1.47. This is clear message, "prime is worse for stats, dont use it"
i can understand motive "rivens purpose is to buff unpopular and weak weapon", but rivens aside, why should anyone bother with regular weapon then shiny-golden-better version exist? Do you seriosly intend what more people shall use, for example, regular Braton over Vandal and Prime versions? Just because V and P more popular and you want equalization? Why? Fow what purpose?

BTW, its also very strange message for players who enjoy some weapon already and you make new version. "Hey, you love Dual Zorens? we have a new shiny-golden-powerful version! But you shall not use it, its less powerful with riven then old one, because we want you to use old one. cause Its underbuffed now."


Sorry for bad english.

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Zzzzzz

 

This won't make decreases any less common. If something in this game is ever considerdd good and a single popular streamer makes a video for it then its disposition bites the dust.

 

Maybe y'all should make a policy to fix that instead.

 

Also it doesn't matter how much you buff the Marelok's disposition; its base stats are S#&$ and it will see no use until you buff those. Same goes for Despair, Cronus, Jaw Sword, and every other stat stick for Atlas and Khora that you can think of.

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