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Riven Disposition Procedure for New Weapons


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4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Just remove Disposition already. Every change DE makes to Disposition as a mechanic or Dispositions themselves will always be overall negative for the game. If you want players to have a more balanced arsenal with power, then stop releasing weapons like Kuva Bramma.

If they really wanted the game to be balanced they would do more than the extremely small tweaks to Riven dispositions less than a handful of times a year.

Balance changes every PA at a minimum should have been a thing a while ago.  Rivens can't be a substitute for balance, because so many weapons are going to be really bad regardless of rivens or not, and strong weapons are already strong without rivens. If someone likes a weapon and it sucks, the only hope there is waiting for DE to release the same weapon with better stats as "new" content.

 

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6 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

This change leads us directly to another common piece of player feedback: weapons with very low dispositions are sometimes not worth equipping unless you get a very good roll

Since it was actually acknowledged, maybe, I dunno, actually do something about it? The possibility of bigger disposition increases happening does nothing to solve that problem. IMO disposition just shouldn't go below 0.8, anything lower than that and most rolls aren't worth using over a normal mod.

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il y a une heure, PurpledeRose a dit :

either

non-prime with riven will be better than primed with riven

or

Primed, vandal will give more busted increase in stat.

Both outcome, which i think are just bad.

Or we get the worst of both worlds: the non-prime is better with a riven than the prime, and the prime is only marginally better anyway.

Oh wait, that's already what we have.

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I guess this is fine. Will probably destroy the market for new weapons. Selling unrolled rivens for new releases was a pretty good racket, cant imagine anyone doing that at the same scale after this though.

I don't think rivens work as a system but I also don't think this meaningfully adressers anything important about it.

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Posted (edited)

The issue is as most players already stated, when you get a riven for a weapon with a 0.5 dispo, even with a great roll  on it. It usually does not bring a significant advantage over using a regular mod in place of it, why not just increase the ranges from 0.5 to 0.85 or 9 and from 1.48 to 2 then, so even the lowest dispo weapons can still roll something worth using and the  high dispo weapons that folks really don't consider can have some pretty attractive stats to entice players to use them perhaps?

Edited by Cebian
wording
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It is another proof that riven itself fails to fulfill the “balance weapon” purpose.

Attribute of 0.5 disposition riven is just pure trash. You just don’t want another Bramma situation but didn’t even think about how to fix riven, instead comes up with this “procedure”

The solution: balance and tune the weapon instead, get rid of riven completely.

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Posted (edited)

okay, i hear loud and clear. if there's a new Weapon that i decide i really like, don't bother getting a Riven for it in the first 4 Months, then don't bother for 3-4 Months after that when the prices spike up when the Riven has the opportunity to become useful.

more waiting in a game about waiting. i guess.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, Totterson said:

it doesn't matter how much you buff the Marelok's disposition; its base stats are [bad]

Marelok has always been a good Weapon statistically, and the Variant of it is competitive with other similar types of Spike Damage Weapons.

Edited by taiiat
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stop base balance on popularity its stupid, some ""non-meta"" are op as hell and that literaly means dont use new stuff because we will nerf them, the only game I ever seen were you dont have to play with a weapon because it will be nerfed later

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great, its a far better system.

its always better to start low and give players more then to give them alot then be forced to take it away.

even if its warranted no one likes to have their shinnies taken away.

good stuff.

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10 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Greetings Tenno!

With the upcoming release of The Deadlock Protocol, we wanted to outline some further changes we are making to the Riven disposition process in response to player feedback.

When we introduced separate dispositions for each weapon variant back in November 2019, we planned to give new weapons a disposition of 1 (the “average”), or matching the lowest member of the weapon family if it already had a disposition lower than 1. Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions. We may have an idea of how popular certain weapons will be, but under this new system, waiting a few months for players to integrate the weapon into their arsenals will give us a much clearer picture, without ever having to start high and backtrack.

This change leads us directly to another common piece of player feedback: weapons with very low dispositions are sometimes not worth equipping unless you get a very good roll, and if a weapon is way off of where it should be disposition-wise, it can take several waves of changes for it to reach an appropriate power level. 

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common.

Thanks to everyone for understanding, as we make changes to help make the Riven balancing procedure a more positive experience - literally!

Really like the changes. With new weapons releasing with a 0.5 dispo it stops corrupt riven sellers. But please I will I ask that disposition changes are consistent all round. Stuff like Euphona prime for example are still so low in disposition and nobody uses it. 

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Just drop Disposition as a system. Set all weapons to the same disposition and leave them there. Having invested work getting ruined or seeing all the examples above of riven stupidity is much worse than good weapons being better with a riven.

Or just trashcan the whole riven system - but if it's going to stick around it wouldn't feel as infuriating as it does when hard work gets thrown away because of disposition changes. Really not cool.

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Most people complaining that dispos are based on popularity are just now learning that. No need to belittle them. 

 

Those that knew, probably still complain because its a valid complaint. 

Riven dispo changes will never stop with this system which is bad.

 

If only they would just use them and base the dispo off of a desired level of viability and leave it at that. 

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Why do you guys want us to not play the damn game and have fun? This is a PVE GAME FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! I don't know how some players complaining that he got matched with a MR28 player with boomboom arrow and nuke 4. You guys want us to not use the new weapons, or use it and struggle leveling. You want us to play like goddamn rookies? I see DE the last updated made some good baby steps for the right direction, but now it slipped and fell on that used diaper. Deadlock Protocol....I cant wait the bugtsunami and blame it on the testservers :D

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11 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

This are welcome additions. Nice!

I still don't see how this addresses cases like the Aksomati vs Aksomati Prime though. Those weapons are so close in stats that the Aksomati tends to outperform the Aksomati Prime when a Riven is involved. Regular weapons should be helped by Rivens, but they shouldn't be able to outclass their Prime versions even if by a small margin.

The issue is that riven dispostion is based on poularity and usage, not on performance. You're right though that some considderation for prime / nonprime weapons should be taken into account.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5.

This is a great idea, and will stop the crazy prices on rivens for brand new weapons.

But, new weapons variants will really suffer, especially if their previous version is bad or even decent but not popular. You're regularly going to be in a place where something like the Corinth with a riven will be significantly better than the Prime variant without.

A lot of new variants have been side-grades. Things like the Opticor Vandal or Aksomati/Baza Prime - either tweaks of the base weapon or boost one stat with an equivalent nerf elsewhere.

For instance, if the Opticor Vandal had a launch dispo of .5 it would be worse with a +damage riven than the base Opticor (which had 1.15 when the Vandal was launched) would be with a +fire rate one. Or even a +fire rate -damage one.

Then it would have been "wait, I played 5 hours of thermia fractures for this piece of s...? It's not as good as what I've had for ages!" and that burns players out. We're here for exciting and fun new weapons, if we wanted careful balance we'd be playing Destiny.

I want to get excited about new variants, and that means they can't be side-grades anymore. If they're going to launch with much lower dispo they need to be objectivley and significantly better than the original.

Edited by (XB1)KayAitch
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12 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions.

Guys if you need help into how modding a weapon and testing it on the simulacrum works, you have only to ask

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Guys, this isn't it.

Raise the lower disposition cap to 0.8 or 1.0. Rivens that are too bad to slot shouldn't be a problem in the first place.

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Erm... I think that this change doesn't makes the riven system better. Yeah, it prevents players from investing time/money into new weapon rivens so they don't get disappointed when those new rivens soon get nerferd... because they come pre-nerfed. It sounds more fair for players than before but it makes the riven system even less enjoyable. Firstly because the intended use "make non-viable weapons viable with rivens" doesn't work most of the time and now people will not get the rush of using OP rivens on new weapons...

I just don't know how to get out of this situation. The riven system is clearly failed and I don't think it can be fixed.

TL;DR: rivens bad

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4 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Just nuke the riven system from orbit, it's lootbox garbage.

100% this. Randomized stats on anything are a bad design decision. Rivens were always a trap due to randomized stats + disposition generally nerfing them automatically over time, and a bubble plat market has grown out of them that is not good for the player community.

Rivens are not worth the effort to grind directly, or to purchase with platinum. Since their stats are not locked, there is no reason to expect that they won't eventually be less useful to slot than a standard mod. Investing in such uncertainty to personally use them is a bad long term deal. Only the rich-rich and platinum purchase whales can really afford the waste as consumers. Rivens are complex enough in how they work that in the absence of an official auction market to show standardized prices, it isn't hard for a platinum speculator to talk up a new player and get them to purchase for inflated prices.

Rivens don't serve the publicly stated purpose of buffing weaker, unused weapons enough for them to be viable enough to see more general use. Instead, it is just used by platinum speculators to exploit players chasing the new meta weapon releases, nevermind that both the new meta weapons and their rivens will ultimately be collectively nerfed by DE to push us on to the next content release 6-8 months down the road anyway.

I don't think Rivens should exist at all, and that they were bad design choice taken over simply buffing less used weapons directly so they would be inherently viable. Starting at a 0.5 disposition is bad for the speculators, who I have no sympathy for, and will hopefully encourage everyone else *to refuse to engage with the riven system at all*. That is absolutely the next best thing to completely removing rivens from the game in my book, so I will take it.

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  • Set all disposition to 1.0, that way balancing weapons come from the weapon itself (or stances for melee), not rivens. It's a given that a variant is stronger than the vanilla. For weapons that won't have variants just buff the stats in proportion to their MR requirement like Acrid.
     
  • Remove some RNG please.
    1. rifle, shotgun, pistol, melee, zaw, and kitgun veiled riven. (Archgun and companion is excluded)
    2. random weapon unveiled. There's just too many weapons this rng layer have to go. Either this or the first layer.
    3. re-rolling in general. Dissolve and refund kuva, reduce kuva cost, increase kuva amount obtained or some ways to control riven rolls.

imo, less RNG means rivens getting cheaper, but since it's cheaper, players would receive less risks in riven trading and would try buying rivens. It may become cheap but the quantity of trades would increase.

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