Riven Disposition Procedure for New Weapons

[TastyTaro]

*looking at 146 rolls on Rattlegus riven*

DE dearest, it would so much better if you would allow to reroll a particular stat in a riven instead of these gamblings we have to suffer through every, single time we want a reroll. You have the mechanics i believe, that valence fusion can be used for that i believe.

[Jarriaga]

2 hours ago, chaotea said:

The issue is that riven dispostion is based on poularity and usage, not on performance

This is not true as of April 2019. 

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This is our first time determining disposition changes with the help of an internal ranking, to help guide dispositions closer to where we feel they should be, and to offer a solid baseline that is less subject to fluctuating player usage stats.

It's been over a year and people still insist otherwise. Why?

[Pzykdruhgs]

11 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

They are not based on popularity as of April 2019. 

I think DE needs to pin that post. It's been way too long for that misconception to still float around as often as it does.

The problem with this is... which weapons are the "control" for a 1.0 dispo then? If the weapon is too weak then obviously everything will go below 1.0 and if the weapon is too strong we may as well not have rivens at all and balance the weapons individually. Also they do still show that they use usage stats:

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because we factored in our personal interpretation of Kitgun strength instead of relying solely on usage stats.

(solely implying that there is some usage stat incorporation)

As for the first statement, kitguns are a good example, some have innate PT, ability to hit multiple enemies *and* pax seeker as an option. Rivens just wont be able to compete with that. Even if gaze and catch were 0.5 dispo they'd be worth using to some extent - though most would move to nukor, if that was lowered, atomos, if that was lowered, probably still 1 of these 3, or maybe people would finally move on to some other weapons but only ones that are still broken like brakk/euphona p/mara detron/staticor/etc. Once it gets to those having their dispo lowered though people will just go straight back to gaze/catch for the utility because there aren't enough single targets in the game that even warrant a dispo of 1.0+ (e.e. basic mods alone will get the objective completed). Then if one (a single target) is released, because we haven't had one for a while literally anything looks "broken" because we have a tonne of options. Once the event passes that riven can be seen as an invested sacrifice because it will basically have an 100% chance to deteriorate.

There's a reason AoE is used in this game.. because there are hordes of enemies. I think one change that could make the game different altogether is displacing our need for +punch on a riven on most weapons that have to compete with AoE-style weapons. Weapons with innate PT are just so much more friendly for this style of game because if we're shooting down a hallway and an enemy dies and the death anim isn't one that knocks the body away, that body blocks ALL OF THE REMAINING SHOTS unless you have punchthrough which can often be regarded as a wasted riven bonus (or necessary one) or a wasted mod slot to have it over weapons that simply don't need it. This could make shield lancers obsolete, but perhaps they could just be rebalanced needing more than 0.5 to PT a shield, and start most weapons at 0.3.

It was shown that bows weren't used a lot in those April riven changes. I could explain that one also: bows for regular missioning, even though they have PT, are just overkill - we could use a rifle like stradavar p or tenora with Primed Shred, or a utility weapon like amprex/ignis/bramma and not have to deal with the charge mechanic and/or single-shot nature in a game with enemy hordes. Literally any semi-auto is likely going to have a high dispo simply for the convenience of automatic (similarly to how some weapons without innate PT or other utility will remain high).

My 2 cents.

[Totterson]

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

Marelok has always been a good Weapon statistically, and the Variant of it is competitive with other similar types of Spike Damage Weapons.

You know, I think you might be right and I was mistaken. It could be worth revisiting. It's been a good two years for me, I'm not sure what caused me to stop using it. Maybe a combination of newer weapons getting powercreeped statistics with passives that can outdo a syndicate proc that can be activated at will combined with the fact that if anybody talks about any given weapon then usage can spike skewing DE's data into nerfing disposition. It's a grand life, isn't it?

 

Even the forums are one big mindgame in that regard thanks to how DE is handling riven disposition. There's still a few gems out there that perform exceedingly well just because all they need is one or two good modifiers on a riven. That isn't balance, that's the clinging by a thread to still be relevant which can be changed at the whim of DE's data. I'm glad you agree with me though; the rest of my examples were on point weren't they?

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, Pzykdruhgs said:

The problem with this is... which weapons are the "control" for a 1.0 dispo then? If the weapon is too weak then obviously everything will go below 1.0 and if the weapon is too strong we may as well not have rivens at all and balance the weapons individually.

We don't know what the control weapons are, but I don't think there are control weapons to begin with and DE are going with "The higher the base stats, the lower the disposition ceiling" or "Even at max disposition, an MR2 weapon should not compete with an MR15 weapon".

These are Connor's exact words when he announced that Riven disposition would no longer be at the mercy of popularity:

Quote

This is our first time determining disposition changes with the help of an internal ranking, to help guide dispositions closer to where we feel they should be, and to offer a solid baseline that is less subject to fluctuating player usage stats. 

An internal ranking. This implies that there is a hierarchy or a power bracket ceiling based on a designated ranking. This in turn means that even if a weapon is extremely popular, it may still get a disposition buff if it remains within their internal ranking. Opposite is true as well and unpopular weapon can be nerfed if they are above their expected ranking even if literally no one is using them.

[Pzykdruhgs]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

there is a hierarchy or a power bracket ceiling based on a designated ranking. 

Ok but this is almost the same as not having rivens, except that having rivens makes single people luckier than others for the sake of frustration.

[Jarriaga]

21 minutes ago, Pzykdruhgs said:

Ok but this is almost the same as not having rivens, except that having rivens makes single people luckier than others for the sake of frustration.

I still think they serve a purpose of pushing an MR2 weapon closer an MR6 weapon so it can compete better a few ranks above its weight without stepping into the toes of weapons expected to be much more powerful as per the February 2018 base weapon damage pass, in which weapons were grouped into damage ballparks based on the expected performance of their MR rank.

The MR6 weapon Riven then gets pushed to MR9 territory. The MR9 weapon into MR11 territry and so on with progressively diminishing returns in order to still respect that at the end of the day, there is a top damage MR bracket that needs to be respected.

A lot of people throw around the Stug here and how it can not compete even at full disposition. Compete against what exactly? If it gets pushed to compete with a non-Riven Kohmak (MR5) then the Riven did its job. It's not meant to push it to Tigris Prime levels. This is why I believe Rivens for MR3 and lower weapons should not exist at all as it is a lot harder (If not impossible) for them to get close to the base stats of the MR8 bracket, which is a much more acceptable damage ballpark.

[taiiat]

45 minutes ago, Totterson said:

You know, I think you might be right and I was mistaken. It could be worth revisiting. It's been a good two years for me, I'm not sure what caused me to stop using it. Maybe a combination of newer weapons getting powercreeped statistics with passives that can outdo a syndicate proc that can be activated at will combined with the fact that if anybody talks about any given weapon then usage can spike skewing DE's data into nerfing disposition. It's a grand life, isn't it?

probably the so-so Accuracy that gave lukewarm memories? as elsewise it makes up for having mediocre Crits in having high Status and a decent Slash weight that could be weighted into usefulness (even if the Status changes severely impacted the usefulness of Slash Status except for Hunter Munitions, still worth mentioning).
there's even the newly crossovered into PvE Augment for Marelok too, hehe. (Shrapnel Rounds if you're not familiar, 200% Multi-Shot for -66% Damage. effectively 0.79x Damage for two more Projectiles which is a straight upgrade. ~35% more plain DPS plus all of the other benefits that come from more Multi-Shot too anyways)

[Danielw8]

[Azamagon]

How about balancing rivens according to the weapon's Mastery Rank (and make sure its Mastery Rank is appropriate to its level of power)? Meaning; High MR = Low Disposition, and vice versa.

AFTER that, if certain weapons still seem too popular for some reason, tweak its disposition or the weapon's stats mildly as needed.

[Proscriptor]

rivens aren't meant to impose balance, but to make unpopular weapons appealing in order to create more player choice

[RottedApples]

what's so wrong about you guys setting a number for the dispo to start at?

If x weapon has a 1.3 dispo, and you know the new variant is stronger but not super strong, why start it at 0.5, why not just hop in and start it at 0.9-1.1, what's so wrong with that.

Like unless you expect a new weapon to be excessively OP i don't see a reason why it should start at 0.5

[Proscriptor]

almost all new weapons are op in this era of warframe

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

Basing riven dispositions on popularity in combination to these new changes just outright kills the riven system for me. It was already bad that they would nerf rivens because certain weapons were being used with rivens. Making it worse by making rivens for new weapons weaker to begin with and possibly not getting the chance for the disposition to get increased because they may be popular just kills all incentive of farming rivens.

This in my eyes has got to be the dumbest move you can make with rivens This is like putting salt on a wound and then hitting the wounded spot again.

[(XBOX)Ahkris Spac]

Is it possible, one day, to stop the nerfing of Rivens when the disposition of the weapon change.
I mean, when we use thousand of Kuva to look for a better roll and the next day, the new riven disposition make the stats of the riven decrease, it is frustrating.

Maybe, you could code the system in a way that rivens keep their stats whatever the disposition of the weapon until their are rerolled

[Slayer-.]

Thanks for the update and new content.

I'd like to see Riven rolls cheaper, 3500 Kuva is to much.

All these new weapons coming out raising the riven cap so we can get more slots would help with the juggling to keep the Rivens used.

Being able to sell duplicate mods for Kuva would be awesome too. 

[chaotea]

5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

This is not true as of April 2019.

Think it still uses popularity as a basis for the disposition, with internal ranking  used to more evenly balance in certain instances.

[(NSW)draugath]

Regardless of the rubric used to evaluate rivens for disposition adjustment, if they aren't going to be updated more frequently than they currently are, we going to constantly have this "The sky is falling reaction!"  

Also, a disposition change is not a nerf, it's an underused mechanic.  The base riven has not been changed.

[rodzzila]

20 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5

I see, so no one can cry about a riven being ruined when it never was good to begin with

 

[Stalc]

why does my riven littered gear for weapons that suck still make them suck, I haven't had a single riven that made it a game changer for any of the weaker weapons in my arsenal since rivens released, I never ran with meta weapons but even they benefit more from it than the weaker weapons. Rivens don't do anything to improve the gameplay if not just clashes with actually fixing garbage weapons that aren't actually performing to their fullest capacity from either being dated or some dev changes that absolutely made no sense or wasn't needed, beam weapons still suck so much ass and the shotgun beams are jokes tied with a gimmick. Remove range on beam weapons they still won't kill faster than any projectile/hitscan hybrid crit beast.

[Xolgys]

1 way to solve the hype-market. nice one actually.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb rodzzila:

I see, so no one can cry about a riven being ruined when it never was good to begin with

 

yep, makes sense.

lets hope it hits the mark.

[DarthVaderdeTco]

pffff

[Err0rZero]

Ok ok just give me my sobek wraith and kuva stug...

[Merrcenary]

just remove rivens from the game ok?

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

23 hours ago, Xardis said:

Pls, stop basing disposition changes on purely popularity. It creates a cycle where all weapons worth using riven on will eventualy drop to a disposition level that is barely usable, if even, when there are weapons so weak that full 1.5 doesnt make them usable on par with unrivened weapons.

Change to start new weapon dispo at the bottom is nice, but its a placebo, the only thing that it changes is most of the people getting disappointed coz of their new weapn rivens getting nerfed again and again. Now it will only increase to that low dispo that they would drop to. The problem is that low dispo and riven usability.

This.  If a weapon is only fixed by a riven because you can't manage to balance the weapons in the game, then the weapons that NEED rivens to not suck will only be usable while popular, which will get the dispo nerfed which will make them trash again.  Learn how your own game works so that you can base the riven stat ranges on the weapon's base stats and then leave it the #*!% alone.  

All these changes are going to accomplish is when people are disappointed and angry.