Riven Disposition Procedure for New Weapons

[Portlalaland]

Liiiiiikeeee!!!!!

[TARINunit9]

On 2020-06-08 at 2:15 PM, Revanx said:

Have a more positive experience by starting everything negative. That's some DE logic 

It's literally the logic hardcore Riven fans asked for.

They HATED Riven nerfs on a conceptual level, even when warranted, because to them it means all the effort and Kuva and in some cases platinum they invested is quite literally (under their logic, and it's a logic I sorta agree with kinda) devalued

Under this new system, it can virtually never be devalued. It can only increase in value

[I_Am_Static]

On 2020-06-08 at 10:00 PM, [DE]Connor said:

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

Considering your idea of balance of rivens stems on popularity rather than weapon power, this pretty much just means that a lot of new weapons in the future will never see a disposition higher than 0.5 regardless of whether they should have it or not.

Quote

This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions. We may have an idea of how popular certain weapons will be, but under this new system, waiting a few months for players to integrate the weapon into their arsenals will give us a much clearer picture, without ever having to start high and backtrack.

It's almost like you have the ability to do that prior to releasing a new weapon by actually getting people to test it - hell, if you wanted to claim you don't have the time in-house then you could actually make use of your own partner system and have some of the content creators on your list who are mostly known for making weapon and frame builds do that for you and provide knowledgeable feedback. 

The rest of your comment is clear nonsense considering the nerfs that are being given to Kuva Bramma - a weapon that was painfully obvious from the outset on how much power potential it was going to have.  I don't disagree on the weapon getting nerfs, but make comment on how it's clear to everyone that you guys seem to have no scope of vision on how strong weapons you release will or won't be no matter how obvious it is to everyone else when they land on day 1, but I feel you're not actually interested in player feedback unless it's the smoke screen of fashionframe and your balance philosophy seems to be "Oh, that's popular, better nerf it!" and I'm not talking about the Bramma alone here.

Quote

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common.

Meaning when you need to sell some Prime Access packs you'll up the power level to make them more attractive for sale?  Sorry to be crude about it, but that's exactly how you've dealt with the situation.

[PieExplosion]

This is going to highlight just how bad low dispositions are.

Add 0.01 disposition per MR level, capped at 1.0. Negative dispositions are 2x more penalizing than the benefit of positive dispositions, because math. Dispositions below 0.6 are abysmally bad and struggle to compete with regular mods. Severe penalization of weapons because we enjoy using them feels real #*!%in' awful.

[Cicasajt]

or maybe use your brains and determine an approximetly appropiate starting disposition... literally takes 2 minutes /weapon

[Xardis]

7 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

It's literally the logic hardcore Riven fans asked for.

They HATED Riven nerfs on a conceptual level, even when warranted, because to them it means all the effort and Kuva and in some cases platinum they invested is quite literally (under their logic, and it's a logic I sorta agree with kinda) devalued

Under this new system, it can virtually never be devalued. It can only increase in value

You think so? Coz less dispo at the start means it will rise, then people will get rivens for weapons, weapon will be popular, and then its gets nerfed just like now, but only about half a year later, its not fixing the problem for "them" or me.

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, Xardis said:

You think so? Coz less dispo at the start means it will rise, then people will get rivens for weapons, weapon will be popular, and then its gets nerfed just like now, but only about half a year later, its not fixing the problem for "them" or me.

In practice that doesn't actually happen. If a weapon is being used seldom enough to get a disposition buff, it's because the disposition buff isn't enough to save it

[Kayll]

10 minutes ago, Xardis said:

You think so? Coz less dispo at the start means it will rise, then people will get rivens for weapons, weapon will be popular, and then its gets nerfed just like now, but only about half a year later, its not fixing the problem for "them" or me.

If a weapon is too strong/too popular then the disposition wont go up, then people wont be able to come to the forums and complain about their 3k platinum "god riven" being lowered in disposition,the only way you can go is up.
Unless its a weapon that has already been in the game and sees a sudden surge in popularity.

Honestly the whole reason for this change to me seems to be to prevent people from buying new weapon rivens for absurd prices and then being upset when they are inevitable brought down in disposition.
 

 

.
 

[(PSN)TlrbmGame]

Here is what I'd personally like to see DE post:

"Hey everyone, we are going to be making sweeping changes to the riven system. In an effort to keep better weapon balancing going forward, we are removing riven dispositions.[DE]Whoever is going to be comparing weapon usage log with the weapon efficiency(dmg, etc) log and adjusting riven stats. They will also be performing tweaks to weapons themselves so that more weapons will be viable while newer weapons dont feel weak compared to their older counterparts. [DE]Whoever is going to be testing and making changes live once a week on Tuesdays for the next 3 months, as we feel that will be long enough for the ever-changing usage and statistics log to settle.

We appreciate your feedback and will be keeping a careful eye on these changes as we proceed."

Yup, something like that would initially hit the market prices but all these dispo changes cause big hits anyway. Then we wont have dispo because each weapon has its own internal set value ranges that rivens can be. This would also address primes being weaker than non primes. And with weekly balancing on majority of weapons for 3 months, weapon stats and riven stats will eventually stabilize as balance comes closer together.

[Kamachi]

Just get rid of this horrendous RNG crap and give us a progression system for rivens already. 

[Xardis]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)TlrbmGame said:

Here is what I'd personally like to see DE post:

"Hey everyone, we are going to be making sweeping changes to the riven system. In an effort to keep better weapon balancing going forward, we are removing riven dispositions.[DE]Whoever is going to be comparing weapon usage log with the weapon efficiency(dmg, etc) log and adjusting riven stats. They will also be performing tweaks to weapons themselves so that more weapons will be viable while newer weapons dont feel weak compared to their older counterparts. [DE]Whoever is going to be testing and making changes live once a week on Tuesdays for the next 3 months, as we feel that will be long enough for the ever-changing usage and statistics log to settle.

We appreciate your feedback and will be keeping a careful eye on these changes as we proceed."

Yup, something like that would initially hit the market prices but all these dispo changes cause big hits anyway. Then we wont have dispo because each weapon has its own internal set value ranges that rivens can be. This would also address primes being weaker than non primes. And with weekly balancing on majority of weapons for 3 months, weapon stats and riven stats will eventually stabilize as balance comes closer together.

I like this exept removing dispo, there are weapons that should be powerful without rivens, and those that should only be so with one, disposition does that to a degree, yes, its bad at it, but removing it would be even worse.

I personaly would like to see a dedicated DE member doing weekly streams with a spreadsheet, asking viewers what weapon should he look at, how the weapon is used by the community, and debating what changes in stats/disposition community would like to have vs what powerlevel DE intends for it. All of that should be AFTER a public discussion on what changes the rivens should receive, like a long suggested stat type locking to reduce the grind and idiotic prices on riven auction houses.

After each such stream the person doing it would discuss the concerns and suggestions from the stream with other DE members and decide what changes, or at least their general direction in the weapons that were "balanced" on such stream, with conclusion of that being posted somewhere and/or announced on the next stream with the expectation that at least most of those would be implemented in the next riven balance or at most the next mainline.

[Orakan]

On 2020-06-09 at 12:00 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

 

Sadly your company doesn't have a balance methodology , that is why all these times DE let people take and sell rivens for thousands of platinum and than nerf the rivens. All your company's needs is QA engineers with enough veteran warframe player knowledge so customers won't get excitement from broken unbalanced systems or making profit from these kind of systems. Putting lowest riven disposition won't change that problem either , nor this action is the solution for this problem.

[60framespersecond]

I think this is a good change for the current riven system. Though I believe that it needs more fundamental changes to make it a rewarding progression system in the mod space, which I'd really appreciate.

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

Sorry @[DE]Connor but that 0.5 dispo on start is just a dumb move from DE. it almost kill any hype for new weapons and all riven market flow chain (arbitration farm, kuva farm, index farm, kuva lich farm, relic farm from prime time release...).

 

Right now, me as a vet all i do is toward riven market, if u kill that i will proly leave, cuse i will have nothing more to do, i can probably speak for the majority of vets that have grinded all stuff rn.

 

If ur guys are going to do that, its better to just remove rivens at this point or just remove riven disposition. The broken weapons on release are DE fault (or intended for milking $$$, wich is not bad cuse we live in a society ruled by capitalism anyway). Or in a side opition, decrease dispo change for a month schedule, not in each 3 months.

 

Like, ur guys released kuva bramma with 3500 base damage per second plus 10 meters range AoE, and weapons like assault rifles sitting on ~400 base dps at best, and just that, no punch through, no aoe just histcan. Thats all wrong.

 

Please dont make that change, u will end just loosing more players and $$$. @[DE]Rebecca@[DE]Megan@[DE]Steve

[Jarriaga]

8 hours ago, Kayll said:

If a weapon is too strong/too popular then the disposition wont go up, then people wont be able to come to the forums and complain about their 3k platinum "god riven" being lowered in disposition,the only way you can go is up.
Unless its a weapon that has already been in the game and sees a sudden surge in popularity.

Honestly the whole reason for this change to me seems to be to prevent people from buying new weapon rivens for absurd prices and then being upset when they are inevitable brought down in disposition..
 

And this just highlights their hypocrisy when using the "Don't nerf rivens based on popularity" argument, which is ultimately a red herring for "Always buff, never nerf". The new system effectively solves that problem because now you won't have an Acceltra or Kuva Bramma situation with people accusing DE of milking the Riven market plat by intentionally releasing overpowered weapons and then conveniently nerfing them when new weapons are released so new Riven plat flows so people buy them.

But since this solution doesn't involve max disposition or never nerfing disposition, it is being attacked. This speaks volumes about the mentality of those players as their red herrings were just exposed as the distractions they are.

Kudos to DE for this decision, as it is going to cost them plat sales for the sake of the game's health by addressing the perception that this is intentional for milking Riven plat. 

[Graavarg]

On 2020-06-08 at 11:00 PM, [DE]Connor said:

"going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5"

"Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted"

This is a really good change. Hopefully it will, over time, force rivens back towards their original role: being a sort of "supernatural"/magical enhancement option for weapons that are under-used.

The whole "god riven" & "meta focus"-concept has slowly and surely been taking over the game, crushing and destroying the richness and diversity that exists in the glorious weapon/mods/damage types-sandbox (to which you can add abilities, arcanes & more esotheric stuff like squad composition). A lot of toobers jumping on the idiot-easy "meta or mr-fodder"-bandwagon in combination with plat-sharks & -whales just made everything worse. While going for a min-max meta approach is as legit in Warframe as in many other stat-influenced games, there now exists a de-brained Tenno horde that actually thinks killing enemies with "1000000 RED CRIT DAMAGE !!!" is a central goal in Warframe (when said enemies have a 1000 hp total).

- - -

I understand that kuva weapons (with their "+ok" stats, additional status & 80 modspace) sort of forced a decoupling between the specific weapons belonging to same type (like Drakgoon - Kuva Drakgoon), but to me it still is a mistake. It makes an otherwise volatile system (disposition) even more complex (different changes for several weapons using the same riven but with differing effects) and sort of abolishes the idea that there are basic & better variants of weapons. If a Prime/Vandal/Wraith/Kuva/Telos/Secura/Sancti/Vaykor/Prisma/Synoid/Mara/Ceti/Rakta (might have forgot some variant type) becomes +/- the same as the basic weapons with the same riven attached, rivens will become the destroyers of diversity and variance, which is the opposite of their intended effect (as I understand it).

Logically there are only two solutions to this conundrum: either separate all rivens so that they are specific to a weapon only (one riven for "Drakgoon", another for "Kuva Drakgoon", and they can only be used on their specific weapon), or go back to the original system with the same stats locked for all weapons within a weapon type ("Drakgoon" & "Kuva Drakgoon" can use the same riven with the same stats on both weapons).

In the first case the arbitrary "max riven" limit has to go, either allowing any amount of rivens or replacing the "max amount of riven slots"-number with something based on the weapons you actually own, or the number of weapon slots you have, with an additional pool of 30 (or something) "free for trade & storage"-slots.

In the second case there either has to be some system for the general balancing of weapon stats (without rivens), or a general acceptance that even with a riven basic weapons will not be as good as their variants.

- - -

I think DE is moving Warframe's weaponverse towards a better place. The overall weapon balancing, melee 3.0 and the status rework all point in that direction. So does reducing the focus on rivens as a (mostly) meta-enabling mechanic (or plat-machine). And so also does all the weapon (type)-specific mods showing up. While being thoroughly dissed by the meta-blinded/-lobotomized part of the playerbase the new mods actually add possibilities and variance. They have been mostly on the conservative side, but even so some are very well designed ( a good example would be all the Penta "variants" you can put together by switching mods in/out). This mod-based variant mechanic might not do a lot for anyone hunting for "the new meta", but it has the potential to add a lot more diversity to Warframe. I do think all weapon-specific mods should be allowed in the exilus slot though, even if they have inherent damage/status/mag size/fire rate/etc.-increase. Simply because in many cases this would make them a lot more interesting to use.

- - -

Thanks!

[Monolake]

On 2020-06-09 at 12:00 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Greetings Tenno!

With the upcoming release of The Deadlock Protocol, we wanted to outline some further changes we are making to the Riven disposition process in response to player feedback.

When we introduced separate dispositions for each weapon variant back in November 2019, we planned to give new weapons a disposition of 1 (the “average”), or matching the lowest member of the weapon family if it already had a disposition lower than 1. Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

....

I hope you realize that 0,5 rivens are useless? Not worth slotting over regular mods.

And weapons are used or not regardless of rivens but because the weapons themselves are good or not. So if some new weapon is not getting any love - you need to buff the weapon, not its rivens. Rivens just cant be used to balance - only relatively few people have rivens and they are way too random.

[BladesStorm]

il y a une heure, ShiruBiru a dit :

Sorry @[DE]Connor but that 0.5 dispo on start is just a dumb move from DE. it almost kill any hype for new weapons and all riven market flow chain (arbitration farm, kuva farm, index farm, kuva lich farm, relic farm from prime time release...).

 

Right now, me as a vet all i do is toward riven market, if u kill that i will proly leave, cuse i will have nothing more to do, i can probably speak for the majority of vets that have grinded all stuff rn.

 

If ur guys are going to do that, its better to just remove rivens at this point or just remove riven disposition. The broken weapons on release are DE fault (or intended for milking $$$, wich is not bad cuse we live in a society ruled by capitalism anyway). Or in a side opition, decrease dispo change for a month schedule, not in each 3 months.

 

Like, ur guys released kuva bramma with 3500 base damage per second plus 10 meters range AoE, and weapons like assault rifles sitting on ~400 base dps at best, and just that, no punch through, no aoe just histcan. Thats all wrong.

 

Please dont make that change, u will end just loosing more players and $$$. @[DE]Rebecca@[DE]Megan@[DE]Steve

sounds like you are one of those ppl who sell rivens at crazy/excesive/stupid prices , im also a vet and i found boring grind kuva, ill like to spend that time getting fun instead of farm without results and obviously i wont pay 10k+ for one mod to the weapon i like, this could be the first step againts cancerous riven market in game.

Greetings.

[VVVVVVEmersonFisioVVVVVV]

11 minutes ago, BladesStorm said:

sounds like you are one of those ppl who sell rivens at crazy/excesive/stupid prices , im also a vet and i found boring grind kuva, ill like to spend that time getting fun instead of farm without results and obviously i wont pay 10k+ for one mod to the weapon i like, this could be the first step againts cancerous riven market in game.

Greetings.

I even touched Bramma market bud.

 

My biggest concern is future variants of dead weapons like flux rifle vandal, guadao prime, daikyu prime, ether reaper prime, magnus prime, kuva twin kohmak..... Dead weapons that have huge dispo, now will come with garbage dispo. Flux rifle sitting at 1.55 dispo will get a flux rifle vandal with 0.5 garbage, just why?

[(PSN)Ares_Arizen]

Digital Extremes is trying to kill their own game, I think. Getting sick of Warframe after all these years.

 

 

[Upright1]

This is cool and all but I feel that riven dispo changes happen far too infrequently to warrant this

[(PSN)Deeceem]

So, you make Rivens for new weapons pretty much useless unless you happen to roll them perfectly at which point they might be slightly better than a regular mod and maybe, if the new weapon turns out to be unpopular it will have a decent disposition after roughly six months or so (two Prime releases/Riven dispo changes upwards to get it to 1.0 - just an estimation based on your vague statement on increases)?

So, from now on a weapon has to be ingame for six months, it has to be not too popular and it still has to be good enough to be worth the investment (plat, time, whatever) to even go for a Riven for it. Don't you think at this point it might be seriously time to rework the system as people pointed out since its release instead of making it pretty much a farce for every new weapon going forward?

I'm not even liking or disliking this change, it's whatever to me, but if you read what you're essentially doing (giving a six months delay before a system actually has an effect) you might see how that might be a good indicator for the system potentially being somewhat flawed.

It kind of comes across like: "We have this Riven system here, guys! But you know what, it's actually kind of pointless to spend your time with it for the most part.". Maybe that's the intention? No clue.

It wont affect me personally, because I never bought Rivens for new weapons due to being too pricey and now I wont buy them due to having a bad disposition. It'll will be a worse experience to open one for a new weapon though. That's why I hardly care about this change but think it's a good sign of the Riven system itself being a mess.

[(PSN)palebluelight]

Not for this at all popularity isn’t a good metric and your just gonna narrow what’s viable again forcing the meta which you keep wanting to disrupt but are doing it badly.

[Alucanai]

On 2020-06-09 at 9:09 AM, Xardis said:

Pls, stop basing disposition changes on purely popularity. It creates a cycle where all weapons worth using riven on will eventualy drop to a disposition level that is barely usable, if even, when there are weapons so weak that full 1.5 doesnt make them usable on par with unrivened weapons.

Change to start new weapon dispo at the bottom is nice, but its a placebo, the only thing that it changes is most of the people getting disappointed coz of their new weapn rivens getting nerfed again and again. Now it will only increase to that low dispo that they would drop to. The problem is that low dispo and riven usability.

Agreed.  Riven dispo has gotten so low in some cases that the base values of the Riven's stats can be lower than the mod they're supposed to be replacing.  This can create a situation where a weapon is better off not using the riven at all.  Aren't rivens supposed to make weapons better?  Extremely low dispo rivens sometimes feel like a weapon penalty, not a buff.

[Kayll]

1 hour ago, Alucanai said:

Agreed.  Riven dispo has gotten so low in some cases that the base values of the Riven's stats can be lower than the mod they're supposed to be replacing.  This can create a situation where a weapon is better off not using the riven at all.  Aren't rivens supposed to make weapons better?  Extremely low dispo rivens sometimes feel like a weapon penalty, not a buff.

Pretty sure rivens aren't suppose to be mandatory, and the entire point of disposition is that strong weapons don't aren't made over the top by rivens..and to bring weaker weapons to a more usable state to compete with the strongest weapons.