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Riven Disposition Procedure for New Weapons


[DE]Connor

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1 hour ago, Kayll said:

Pretty sure rivens aren't suppose to be mandatory, and the entire point of disposition is that strong weapons don't aren't made over the top by rivens..and to bring weaker weapons to a more usable state to compete with the strongest weapons.

"Mandatory" is sorta a misnomer, what folk usually mean in game design when they say that is progression. For us, that is our damage, critical, status, and multishot/attack speed; for warframes that might be our standard durability stats, ability stats, and the like. They take the place of deals like level ups in RPG systems basically; though we do have other mods conditionals, augments, and the rare pure utility, they fight for space against being able to essentially get better as you continue playing from a game-stats stand-point. That isn't to say that other mods can't be more powerful; Conditionals are often more potential growth, since their power is variable; and act as tools for a designer to push players or pull them as the case can sometimes be, to a given behavior of playing. Similar to how DE is changing disposition for rivens now to try to manipulate how players are enjoying the game right now and herd them in a different direction.

As far as Rivens go, if they were not intended to be progression, that is easy; DE wouldn't have had progression stats on them. They would have just boosted the base stats of the weaker than normal weapons; or given what we know about how disposition was traditionally determined until those reworks; by adjusting according to a chart based on the current popularity trends. Amalgam mods represent a more optional and usually not progression alternative to rivens; and indeed are very similar in concept to one of the original fan ideas that I personally think acted as inspiration for mods that combine aspects for two or more mods into one; but perhaps do it weaker than the individual. Earlier versions like Nightmare mods, or the malus Corrupted mods could be seen as similar deals in their own way, but usually pure progression combos and they don't reject the normal versions; unlike Amalgams and that original idea for rivens! If you consider rivens in the light of popularity manipulation, the acquisition, the gambling mechanic of rolling for Kuva, and the limited spaces make much more sense and I think help tell a story about how they are not about "strong" or "weak" but around trying to incentivize switching up arsenals while requiring a focus on limited weapons.

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On 2020-06-08 at 5:10 PM, (PS4)NotNidus said:

I feel this is a terrible choice.

It basically means that good popular weapons will never have the chance to use a good riven as they will stay 0.5 forever.

That's the point of Rivens isn't it?

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Ain't got no reason to actively work for rivens any more if you can't win the lotto here and there. It's just a bunch of same ol when you can't hit big on a new weapon. That was the whole deal with rivens: Most of the time you lose & get trash, but sometimes you hit big if you work hard.

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On 2020-06-08 at 5:00 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Um....

Rather than starting at the bottom with riven dispositions, and thereby guaranteeing that no one will use the new weapons and/or a crap riven..... why not wait to release rivens for the new weapons until you have hard data on the weapon's popularity and THEN implement rivens for them at the appropriate level.

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Le 08/06/2020 à 23:00, [DE]Connor a dit :

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

I'm a bit desapointed by taht, after using riven for a little while, 0.58 is the minimal to make a 10point mod as valuable as a 5point  mod at ratio 1  ... who is most common warframe mods ... if you taking this in mind start as 0.6 make a riven still usable  without nerf a build just to pass a little cap in mechanics buy focussing a little on a stat .

 

and in my bad opinion ; 0.6 should be the minimum disposition ; and it's only my opinion

 

 

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I feel like the minimum riven disposition should be at least 0.8 even for the lowest disposition weapon.  Why?  
It makes it slightly worthwhile to slot in a riven at the expense of mod slots.  0.5 minimum disposition is so low - it's better to slot in a regular mod.

On the other end of things, the highest riven disposition should be raised to 3.0.  Even with a riven disposition buff for super low popularity weapons, they may still be outperformed by new weapon releases so the buff makes these weapons slightly more useable.

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On 2020-06-09 at 3:50 AM, PookieNumnums said:

Most people complaining that dispos are based on popularity are just now learning that. No need to belittle them. 

I mean, it has been a year, and many of these "sToP bAsInG iT oN pOpUlArItY" posts are from accounts with multiple hundred posts, which means they are active forum goers.

After a certain point, you really just have to assume some people are illiterate or simply choose to ignore the information because it lets them complain.

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Why do you still use popularity to balance weapons? Like skiajati? Alot of people use that weapon because it was basically given to you for free whether you wanted it or not meaning it was popular for the right reason but has a low dispo for the wrong reason. Paracesis, we are about to destroy sentients and a sentient killing sword is seeing heavy use because its good at what it does? Jesus christ...

 

Edit: I don't care enough as I have plat to buy whatever riven I want for stupid amounts but I don't because I would like to believe I am smart in some capacity lmao. Anyway its just silly nonetheless

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It would be seriously nice if we saw riven dispositions changing more often than like, twice a year. You guys release new weapons faster than you tweak dispositions.

This new approach could really work wonders, but only if you stay on top of the curve and not let gameplay stagnate.

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On 2020-06-09 at 3:50 AM, Infernus3 said:

You guys are funny if you believe this will balance weapons and rivens.

You guys actually believe that having a riven dispo of 5/5 makes that gun usable? Really? The Stug is usable?

What you did now is not balance Rivens, but ruin Rivens for possible good weapons which we normally painstakingly farm and roll.

It's your own game DE. Stop coming up with newer methods to ruin it every 2 months.

You want to make Rivens enjoyable for everyone instead of the hardcore players/spenders, then give the option to save a stat and roll the other 3 for double the Kuva cost. Every single time you save a stat and roll the remaining, the Kuva cost doubles for the subsequent rolls.

3.5k Kuva for unsaved

7k for 1 save and 3 unsaved

14k for 2 saved stats and 2 unsaved

28k Kuva per roll for 3 saved stats and rolling the last stat.

People would not be forced to spend 30k plat for a God roll riven, but at the same time it would also not be cheap on Kuva that any casual player would be able to use it.

Think it through.

id love to see stat saving in the riven system. bcs as it is right now, the games economy is being ruined due to totally overpriced " god rivens " just bcs that seller got super lucky on the rolls.

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On 2020-06-11 at 3:41 PM, Kayll said:

Pretty sure rivens aren't suppose to be mandatory, and the entire point of disposition is that strong weapons don't aren't made over the top by rivens..and to bring weaker weapons to a more usable state to compete with the strongest weapons.

Totally get that.  I just feel like at the moment, a weaker weapon needs a god-rolled riven just to achieve 'usable' as a status, while stronger weapons - by contrast - feel almost nerfed by uber-low riven dispos.  Rivens are icing on the cake, right?  What I'm saying is, with the strong wep / weak dispo situation, it's like I'm scraping off the icing because somebody dropped a little dogfood in the frosting mix.  (That's a tad harsh.  Maybe they just used too much salt.)

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[DE] giveth and [DE] taketh away.  Pablo must be at the bottom of this. 

It never fails, I start to invest my time and plat into rivens and BOOM they nerf it.

You do know this is another method not to balance the game but later to institute another method for us to spend our plat. 

Peeps were upset about the Catchmoon nerf Pablo put in and now he’s board and they nerf the rivens.  Next it will be the Bramma.

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3 minutes ago, VictusRhul said:

[DE] giveth and [DE] taketh away.  Pablo must be at the bottom of this. 

 

It never fails, I start to invest my time and plat into rivens and BOOM they nerf it.

 

You do know this is another method not to balance the game but later to institute another method for us to spend our plat. 

 

Peeps were upset about the Catchmoon nerf Pablo put in and now he’s board and they nerf the rivens.  Next it will be the Bramma.

 

Son what are you even saying, this change is for unreleased rivens, how have you spent plat on things not even in the game yet?
Take off your tinfoil hat you lunatic LMAO

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On 2020-06-16 at 2:34 PM, Kayll said:

Son what are you even saying, this change is for unreleased rivens, how have you spent plat on things not even in the game yet?
Take off your tinfoil hat you lunatic LMAO

Some folk trade or acquire through missions resources to be used later, and it could be that some might have used the opportunity presented by rivens for new weapons being at that starting average state to trade them for a pretty fetching return on investment. Don't know the son comment though, I am sure that it would sure confuse that player's mom and dad; unless it was being used to show some attempt at belittling that player of course.

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Personally, I think that the only problems with rivens are that:

  1. 0.5 dispo is really weak. So weak that often another mod will always beat it. If it's weaker than existing mods, why would I use it for 18 or 9 drain?
  2. There's no linear progression. In some games, I can lock a desired stat and reroll the rest for a higher cost (of kuva), but in Warframe, it's all or nothing
  3. There's a lot of random stats. Like bane of factions are bad negatives, but also bad positives. Sometimes you get projectile speed on a hitscan weapon. There's a lot of stats that just aren't things people will ever look for. I dont know if this was the intention: to give both good and bad stats, but when the riven actually takes up 1 slot with 18 or 9 drain, you'd expect it to perform at least marginally better than serration for example. Instead, I fail to see why anyone would keep projectile flight speed, reload speed, and less recoil on aksomatis for example. Would that really be a riven, or would it just be something you'd put an exilus mod towards (where it literally doesn't cost you a performance slot)?

I'd be really happy if rivens are capped with minimum 1.0 dispo, so you're never actually deciding to endo a lost cause. And make the reroll progression linear (locking stats for higher cost) so that users aren't pressured to pay the "god roll" tax and the riven market normalizes for all kinds of players (since any combination is equally as achievable by yourself and not just everyone rolling for a damage meta because it's guaranteed to sell).

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0.5 riven disposition in weapons I think it will be double work for DE. I explain:
When a weapon appears, many of the users buy a riven, this is affected depending on how good, striking and efficient the weapon is.
In the case of Kuva Nukor, Bramma, Kuva brakk, it was something too obvious, they are weapons that stand out too much and even differing from their normal versions (Nukor, Brakk) they have a riven disposition of 0.9 (kuva brakk), 0.8 (kuva nukor ), but these weapons for any user who tries them, will see them really attractive.
Under the previous example, then users, a considerate group, will start using and recommending it, not only because it meets their expectations but goes beyond them.

Another example is Rubico Prime (0.6), it is a weapon that has been highly used by many players, and the reason is also very obvious, it has 38% cc, x3 critical damage, + 50% critical zoom damage. Something that left the rest of the sniper behind, especially Vectis Prime.
The correct thing would not have been to lower the provision to Rubico Prime, because even without any riven (Rivenless), it can be more powerful than having a riven (today), but if we put this example in the rest of the sniper in the game, Well it couldn't be possible.
Vectis prime does not have enough CC to perform perfectly, it has high damage if, but it has 2 bullets, there is an excellent mod for this weapon, and now that it is released (Primed chamber), the weapon has become more popular, and possibly more used that rubico prime. So, DE will lower the vectis prime riven disposition, why is it now more popular?

I think the solution would be to give a FULL REWORK, of stats, on all existing weapons in the game.
In the case of the Snipers, Snipetron Vandal has many problems even with the best riven of all, it does not manage to do even half the damage of a rubico or vectis (normal), something that should not be ignored, on the other hand there is Vulkar Wraith, who It has a ridiculously high riven disposition, and the weapon is very powerful and even more so when using Lasting Purity.

Ideally, all weapons should be left at a disposition of 1 and remove the riven disposition level, from 1 to 5.
Make ALL weapons more attractive, improve status chance (It's kind of absurd that Kohm has a ridiculously high status chance and other weapons don't even come close), create a critical chance standard, change multi-shot mods, introduce new prime mods critical probability or critical damage or fire rate.

If Rubico Prime with 38% CC exists in the game, why wouldn't it be nice to see a Vulkar Wraith with 29% CC or a Snipetron Vandel with 35% CC or a Vectis prime with 36% CC? , or among those last snipers to have an x2.2 or x2.5 of critical damage?

Another scenario is the aksomati prime, pyrana prime, corinth prime, they do not have a notable difference between their non-prime versions, if a riven is used in aksomati, this will be more powerful than its prime version, something that doesn't make sense. In the case of Corinth Prime, it is understood that its alternative shot is extremely high, and in Pyrana Prime, it has a passive, making it attractive compared to the normal, but the other weapons?

I do not think that putting a disposition of 0.5 to all new weapons is an idea, what would really be good is to have a general provision for all weapons and before that, decrease or increase the stats of existing weapons in the game to adjust to the riven disposition of 1

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On 2020-06-08 at 11:00 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Greetings Tenno!

With the upcoming release of The Deadlock Protocol, we wanted to outline some further changes we are making to the Riven disposition process in response to player feedback.

When we introduced separate dispositions for each weapon variant back in November 2019, we planned to give new weapons a disposition of 1 (the “average”), or matching the lowest member of the weapon family if it already had a disposition lower than 1. Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions. We may have an idea of how popular certain weapons will be, but under this new system, waiting a few months for players to integrate the weapon into their arsenals will give us a much clearer picture, without ever having to start high and backtrack.

This change leads us directly to another common piece of player feedback: weapons with very low dispositions are sometimes not worth equipping unless you get a very good roll, and if a weapon is way off of where it should be disposition-wise, it can take several waves of changes for it to reach an appropriate power level. 

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common.

Thanks to everyone for understanding, as we make changes to help make the Riven balancing procedure a more positive experience - literally!

 

On 2020-06-08 at 11:00 PM, [DE]Connor said:

Greetings Tenno!

With the upcoming release of The Deadlock Protocol, we wanted to outline some further changes we are making to the Riven disposition process in response to player feedback.

When we introduced separate dispositions for each weapon variant back in November 2019, we planned to give new weapons a disposition of 1 (the “average”), or matching the lowest member of the weapon family if it already had a disposition lower than 1. Unfortunately, this meant that powerful new weapons (like the Kuva Lich collection) might have Rivens that start too strong, forcing reductions in accordance with our balance methodology.

In order to prevent this situation, we will be changing this policy: going forward, all new weapons will be released with the minimum Riven disposition of 0.5. For The Deadlock Protocol, this includes the dispositions on newly added primary kitguns, in addition to regular weapons (secondary kitgun dispositions will remain as-is.)

This more conservative approach will give us a fair chance to see how powerful and popular a weapon is on its own, before giving them access to potentially game-changing Rivens with higher dispositions. We may have an idea of how popular certain weapons will be, but under this new system, waiting a few months for players to integrate the weapon into their arsenals will give us a much clearer picture, without ever having to start high and backtrack.

This change leads us directly to another common piece of player feedback: weapons with very low dispositions are sometimes not worth equipping unless you get a very good roll, and if a weapon is way off of where it should be disposition-wise, it can take several waves of changes for it to reach an appropriate power level. 

That’s why we’re also revising another aspect of our process: In the past, we’ve only changed Riven dispositions by up to 0.2 at a time. Since new weapons are starting from the very bottom, Prime Access balance passes will increase dispositions on newer weapons by larger values, when warranted. Disposition decreases will still be limited to small incremental changes, but with these new procedures, decreases should be far less common.

Thanks to everyone for understanding, as we make changes to help make the Riven balancing procedure a more positive experience - literally!

 

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