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Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.


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I have to admit I knew this would happen sooner or later as to hurting eyes, please, just turn the color transparent like Black and you won't even see it,  So also regarding the eyes, so instead of 15 supposed blinding shots you now get 5 blinding shots lol so as far as blinding you that really didn't get solved lol

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno -

If you’ve been plugged into the community discourse since the self damage changes, you’ll have seen a lot of discussions about the Kuva Bramma. 

What makes this formerly self-damaging weapon so much more dominant than the others?

It has quickly taken the place at the top of the usage charts - which is where it should be given its acquisition - but the degree of dominance (about 3 times more popular than anything else) is not something we feel is good for the primary weapon Arsenal options.

We are changing it so that:

- It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere
- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
- Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m
- Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

We will be monitoring feedback after these changes go live to ensure we’ve struck a better balance of having a powerful weapon - but not one that overshadows everything else in the game to the detriment of your squadmates.

You will see these changes in Update 28: The Deadlock Protocol, and we can discuss feedback once they are in your hands.

Until then, Tenno! 

Congratulations, you've just killed the weapon.

It's used more than any other weapon in the same category because it's the MOST FUN.

That, and the damage falloff on explosive weapons is still overtuned which makes other weapons in the same field fall flat and under perform.


EDIT: Talk to the damn community BEFORE concocting changes for things!
You have a system of Partnered Content Creators who spend so much time in the game they understand WHY things get used more than others.
And more often than not it's because that thing IS FUN compared to the competition.

Edited by Klavinmour
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Posted (edited)

  I would have asked a few questions a bit differently when trying to balance this weapon.

 

  The question posed by Rebeca's post is: 

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

What makes this formerly self-damaging weapon so much more dominant than the others?

In my experience using it, I mainly wanted it for it's relatively high damage output across a wide area with reasonably quick firing and reload times.

 

  Then a concern is noted.

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

It has quickly taken the place at the top of the usage charts - which is where it should be given its acquisition - but the degree of dominance (about 3 times more popular than anything else) is not something we feel is good for the primary weapon Arsenal options.

I believe another question should have been posed before stating the main concern in regards to this weapon.

 

  What sets this weapon apart from other weapons of it's type?

In terms of function it's primary difference comes from it's cluster bombs.

From a combat standpoint that also includes it's total damage output along with how that damage takes place.

There's also the speed at which that damage applies.

All of these combine to define the weapons ease of use which I believe to be the primary reason this weapon is so widely used.

 

  DE's changes are unable to address these main points in a way that I find sufficient. 

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere

DE's desire for this bow to be used as a crowd killer and not as a general use weapon has not been achieved in any significant way by simply reducing the amount of ammo stored. Encouraging players to use the weapon for that one purpose is easier to do by changing the effect of a shot more so than how many shots there are. I believe a damage source adjustment would suite this goal far better. 

Currently the main damage comes from the explosion of the arrow itself. While the cluster bombs seem to me to be forgotten about as a good source of damage.

My suggestion: Alter the arrow explosion damage to be anywhere between 100%-150% of the damage of each cluster bomb. Also change it's blast radius to be no larger than the cluster bombs. 

This could make the functional difference of the bow to be the reason it can do so much damage to groups as opposed to it just seeming like an easier to use grenade launcher.

 

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.

I agree that the Bramma needs to have something done to it to make it less visually busy and easier to see through the explosions of. I don't think that just reducing the number of cluster bombs is enough. I play on the Xbox One primarily and anytime a Mirage with a Bramma fires a shot that lands within my line of sight I will drop frames, especially if the shot lands quite close to me. 

My suggestion: Adjust the animation for the explosion to allow for transparency with some colors as well as how many particle effects are created with each blast. 

This could also help console players that can't just throw more compute power at the game to handle these kinds of effects.

 

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m
- Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

These last two have been grouped together as they address the same thing, cluster bomb effectiveness. I like the radial attack size increase and to some extent the cluster projectile damage fall off change. I don't think it's quite enough however.

My suggestion: Increase the cluster projectile flight speed a small amount to help the cluster bombs hit a wider area while still hopefully overlapping somewhat near where the arrow landed. 

Allowing the total area covered to be higher helps focus the weapon on crowd killing and makes it an even bigger danger for self-stagger.

 

All together I feel that most of these changes are reasonable, though not really solving what I found to be the main reason I would choose this weapon over any other, which is it's damage potential against nearly any enemy. I'm hoping that this weapon becomes a weapon I choose primarily for it's crowd killing ability instead of just it's outright damage and ease of use.

Edited by (XB1)Malderest
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4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

which is where it should be given its acquisition

About that...

It's effectively a Mastery Rank 5 weapon as far as anyone who doesn't strictly play Solo Mode is concerned, because Lich weapon claim mechanic ignores mastery rank restrictions. It really, REALLY shouldn't be. It should be MR20, if anything.

Any plans to fix that? Because MR5 is where you unlock normal Grakata and a normal Tonkor... And, as it so happens, all of Kuva weapons - pretty much destroying weapon power progression from here on out. 

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5 hours ago, Kracken said:

this feels a little like an overkill

Which is how DE usually balances things.  Why nerf something from one direction at a time when they can nerf it from *every* direction at once.  They can always adjust it again later if they overcooked it, right?  Except it seems like they never do - once it's not dominating their usage stats adjusting it upwards again is a lower priority.  Something they might get around to in a year.  Or five.

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2 minutes ago, Aryo_Griever said:

So.... we can expect revisions to the underperforming Kuva weapons as well right? 

Which ones underperform? Im under the assumption that they all perform well, it's just some do AoE while the rest dont making them seem more lackluster. I mean yea a Kuva Hind wont 1 shot a lvl 150 heavy gunner but I think that if it could it'd be the most over powered thing in the game considering that if it did that you could just one tap every enemy in the game -sentients of course.

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Have you guys considered buffing the underperforming weapons? Its such a shame that this fun weapon is dead. Its not like the stagger was bad enough

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1 minute ago, G3M1NI said:

Have you guys considered buffing the underperforming weapons? Its such a shame that this fun weapon is dead. Its not like the stagger was bad enough

no, de wants no fun weapons in this game

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Posted (edited)

Welp, good thing i moved on from Bramma, somehow gotten bored from having the thought of it getting rebalanced due to its convenience.

Edited by Xsoskeleton
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5 hours ago, Upright1 said:

Yes, you have to use your brain now. How terrifying that you cannot delete everything.

Hahaha, too bad the players who couldn't handle self damaging weapons couldn't use their brains because the loss of self damage made the Bramma even more powerful. 

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Lol if only the Catchmoon received as miniscule of a nerf as this. This thing's still gonna be OU because there's no MR requirement or challenge to acquire it since you can be carried.

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Saw this coming a mile away, the nerfs seem mild imo.

played with bramma a fair bit but gets boring fast, haven't touched this thing in a month. Wouldn't miss it if it gets nerfed to the ground either 

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Oh no this will totally change my Vigilante Supplies build. Also for no one that saw this coming, *takes gas mask off and salutes the Synoid Gammacor painted on the wall as tears slide down face* "They may have forgotten your past wonderful ammo economy girl, but I'll never forget nor will I forgive."

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5 hours ago, Arkennstar said:

So this is the Catchmoon fiasco all over again...

I just need to ask.. how does this happen again and again. Weapon is released so blatantly powerful that everyone and their mother is using it. Usage statistics spike. Weapon is nerfed to the ground (Bramma is still not nerfed enough in my opinion, but we'll see). All the people who invested time and resources into these obviously broken weapons are disappointed.

How hard is it to see at the conception of a weapon that it is so stupidly overpowered and easy to use that it will no doubt end up in this situation? A weapon that does more damage than snipers, is massively AoE, has absolutely no drawbacks.. Isnt it time to look at weapon balance at release instead of a few months after? I mean it doesnt take a clairvoyant to see if a weapon is going to be so over the top that it makes every other weapon obsolete. 

That requires testing. I hope DE uses their testing groups to try out weapons before release, but I'm not optimistic. 

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LOL you guys sure know how to kill fun in this game. BTW you have nerfed the rubico and its rivens more than 4 times and its still the king of snipers. This nerf wont change this bow being the best. Expect another nerf. Honesty I barely play as it is as this game keeps being less and less fun at this point because of things like this. I'm only getting on to finish the content then get off go play games I'm actually enjoying. BUFF other weapons instead of nerfing the new cool fun stuff. Using this bow allowed me to go enjoy more missions like arbitrations. 

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Posted (edited)

Just as a nice retort, many players like myself, value earning rewards and will use whatever the current most useful thing is for clear speed and when you nerf that we will move on to the next most busted thing, so don't you worry, we'll still be there, topping damage charts with 80-90% in mission for a typical pug because we value earning rewards making sure that players will have 1 of 2 attitudes:  1) wow that's awesome, I can't wait till I can earn that 2) I don't like that someone with 10x the playtime as me is able to achieve more than me, I'ma go cry on the forums.  I might venture to say, the latter is not a good attitude as it's selfish and small minded.

I liked using the bramma because it let me shoot again, because since the kohm was nerfed with all shotguns, there is no point in using anything but range melee because it's the only thing left that will out dps/clear/kill a spore saryn.  Right now all guns are basically in a crap place... like I honestly think melee should be the most powerful, but not to the degree it is where ALL GUNS ARE A LITERAL WASTE OF TIME unless you're a mid game player without proper access/build knowledge.

Now I am having my play style reduced to optimally earn rewards by not being able to shoot again because it will be too weak of an option, so we're back to melee only (because the nerf is too drastic)...

I think it would be nice to have a more middle ground nerf than this, where shooting might instead be occasionally viable in a situation, but this just nerfs it into the ground where the only time it will be useful will be shooting through walls in the case where it might take longer to walk around.

The nerf itself is overkill because as it stands it's the only viable gun, when compared to melee, weapon that exists.  Well I suppose it was nice to shoot while it lasted, but I'm just annoyed that it needs to be brought down so hard so that we're always stuck in melee mode because even firing it into a crowd will be useless when 1 melee swipe will be faster and easier.  Nerf it sure, but this is just gonna make it so that shooting is a waste of time again.  Thanks for limiting my play options regarding optimal loot acquisition to 1 button spam again DE.  Watch as people now move to complain about that again next.  Tell me I'm wrong too...  watch in three months from now as people are whining about players with melee that rob them of the chance to participate... well here's the thing... that's ALWAYS going to happen, because of a few things:  1) power scope of the game, unless you balance everything perfectly which lets be real, is impossible and not actually what anyone wants and 2) skill matters and people without skill will cry for nerfs thinking that it's the system that is broken and not their lack of skill.

What you all need to get through your heads is that there are players that value loot acquisition because YOU designed the game that way by making a grindy looter shooter based on absurd crafting times... this is the result, and we will always find and take the most optimal path and we're better at figuring that out than the devs are.  Having the ability to use a gun once in a while would be nice, but as it stands it's literally pointless to do so once this nerf is inbound as bramma was the only viable alternative to min/max melee.   You've got it backwards, the problem isn't the bramma, yeah, it's a bit OP at present, the problem with it going to the top of the list is that ALL OTHER GUN OPTIONS ARE NON VIABLE COMPARED TO MELEE, this forces it to the top of the list by default.

Now to preaddress the neigh sayers:

Before you all start frothing and trying to defend your guns, ask yourself if you have the top tier min/max rivens for all the top guns and melee and know and understand the concept of clear speed inside and out... if you don't, you're likely wasting your breath.






 

Edited by Klokwerkaos
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