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Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.


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3 minutes ago, -ZeroStar- said:

Warframe: Here's a new awesome weapon!
Warframe Players: Wow!  Thanks!  This weapon is awesome! So awesome that everyone is using it!

Warframe: So, we saw that everyone was using this weapon and we didn't like it, so we're nerfing it until it's near useless!
Warframe Players: It's almost like you do this with EVERY SINGLE WEAPON that people like and use a lot...

It's nothing about balance.  You make a weapon and it's good, useful, efficient for Warframe, yes, people are going to use it more... That's how gaming works, nerfing it into the ground isn't helping anyone... A minor nerf/balance change would be nice for once...

So, now what is going to happen???  This: People are going to start using the one in 2nd place as far as it being useful, efficient, and best for how Warframe plays... That's just how it works...

Agreed. I honestly had high hopes that DE had realised the fault in their previous decisions after the recent positive melee changes...but it seems they have learnt nothing. Shame...

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I see there's a punchbowl. My my.

 

 

Severely cutting down the 'power fantasy unstoppable god' casual stomp gameplay and ruthlessly refocusing gameplay and power level to be more about 'monster ninjas in a dark space opera' would result in a better game.

 

Thank you.

Ehh it's kinda come too far for that I think. Too many frames are God-level.. Gauss' 4 is even practically Super Saiyan mode heh, Limbo's time powers put him in the class of extra-dimensional being, Vauban can nuke from orbit, list goes on.

Edited by StormWolf1337
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Just now, StormWolf1337 said:

While there are niches you can practically use any weapon for any situation in Borderlands so it's not a good comparison but with the projectiles WF can take some inspiration.

Using any weapon any situation =/= weapons all excelling in every field, or there only being one field to excel in.

This doesn't get at the core point. The no nerf, only buff mentality is fundamentally selfish. It is, basically, 'I enjoy nuking, so that is the only gameplay style I will permit in this game.' Whether you realise it or not.

If you only buff things, that means ironing out weaknesses those items might have. That eliminates support players right out the gate, because support gameplay is built on covering the weaknesses of your fellow players (for example, this is why the Pyro in TF2 is considered partially a 'support' class by the community, thanks to his supreme ability to weed out spies which are the weakness to many other classes). As you make AoE stronger to be able to get rid of heavy targets as indiscriminately as 'ads', that gradually weeds out the weapons and items that deal single-target damage, which focus on those weapons. And in the process, you also get  rid of all-rounder 'utility' weapons that thrive as jacks of all trades that are 'good enough' in all fields, because that's what AoE is now.

And even then, this doesn't change the diversity issue. Either only one weapon will have the highest area:damage ratio and be the best pick that everyone uses, or all viable weapons will have the same ratio and be functionally the exact same weapon, with no differences in performance, only different graphical effects.

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Just now, StormWolf1337 said:

Ehh it's kinda come too far for that I think. Too many frames are God-level.. Gauss' 4 is even practically Super Saiyan mode heh, Limbo's time powers put him in the class on extra-dimensional being, Vauban can nuke from orbit, list goes on.

Sadly, yes. I kinda think the situation almost calls for a hard reset, except that DE can't really do that either!

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Kinda funny. All this big brain balancing wouldn't be needed if we still had self damage. People hated this weapon because it was very risky to use. Almost like the perfect drawback for the literal strongest weapon in the game.

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6 minutes ago, StormWolf1337 said:

Because I care about a game as far as I can throw it, I play them purely for entertainment, being emotional about them would be a waste. My points may contradict but it was intentional, I understand both sides of the argument and would take neither side usually but in this case I err more towards not nerfing the Bramma. Simple as that. 

So, just another "don't nerf my bramma" thread, got it.

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As someone already replied, buffing all other weapons is the same as nerfing this one, that is the correct answer.

With that said, it not like no one saw this coming, and this not ideal when they discard people investement into something, its not the fault of those people that DE couldn't get it right first time and people already invested time and resources into it. They can't refund time, but it would be nice of them to at least refund forma or something. Would be a nice touch.

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Just now, Zimzala said:

So, just another "don't nerf my bramma" thread, got it.

"My bramma" nah man, I use it as often as I use my other weapons, got lens' and forma on quite a few so I use a variety. I don't get your hostility, have I hurt you? 

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Posted (edited)

One of the Devs (I believe Scott) talked about this in a recent interview:

"Think about a gun like the catchmoon which had 80+% usage. It came down to either JUST changing the catchmoon or changing every other weapon around the catchmoon which each weapon would need a different adjustment since a damage increase wouldn't always be enough. Then you run into the issue that now every weapon is stronger than any enemy, so you have to bring up the resilience of the enemy and after doing that you'd probably end up with another outlier. So we just fixing the individual problem seems the less roundabout approach"

I think in an ideal world you'd see all weapons in a place where melee currently is, where for the most part all melees feel pretty even; though I wish I could say the same for the stances 😆

Edited by Synpai
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, StormWolf1337 said:

"My bramma" nah man, I use it as often as I use my other weapons, got lens' and forma on quite a few so I use a variety. I don't get your hostility, have I hurt you? 

How an I being hostile?

I asked my questions, you answered very well, my conclusion is that this is just another thread about people not liking the bramma nerf.

I am direct and blunt, no hostility from my POV. 🙂 

Just like to understand. 🙂 

Edited by Zimzala
speeling
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ammo 15 to 5, I dont think it would change anything, just use ammo mutation.

The thing with the bramma is while it does much more domage than the lenz (no complain here) its shoot much faster than it too

The real issue is the charge time of the bramma: 0,4 sec (unmoded) while the lenz is 1,2 sec.

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I love how a lot of people are whining like 3yr olds about this nerf before we even know what the end result will be. Come on guys, you're better than this. From the description of the changes, it doesn't even appear to be that bad honestly. I too am getting sick of the Bramma spamming in the game. It totally ruins the experience when four people are using it.

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To be honest they will nerf it again, these changes are nothing the weapon will still be heavily used, they need to give it the catchmoon treatment so that we find something else to take its place,

I am curious about the usage of catchmoon

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23 minutes ago, StormWolf1337 said:

Keep it civil dude, no baiting.

 
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I'm just so done with the way the community reacts to things. It's always "Oh NO! This thing is dead for good!", despite the fact that there are plenty of occasions where they're flat out wrong and it'd be obvious to tell just by looking at it. It's like how when self-damage was removed, people where crying doom and gloom about Chroma, despite the fact that that's flat out wrong. Chroma's fine, he can still rather easily get his Vex Armor for the situations he needs it in and that was obvious. Like I swear, DE could say they're nerfing the Bramma, but only end up reducing its base damage by 1 point and there would likely still be a lot of people saying "it's dead" or "I'm tired of DE nerfing the strong things they add into the game".

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I’m alright with this. Everyone knew it was going to get nerfed eventually. The bramma will still do immense damage though. Also if that’s the only primary you use, get some variety in your life you bland ass ho.

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18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:
18 hours ago, Casardis said:

However, this doesn't change one important thing in regards to new player experience: Kuva Liches are accessed WAY too early in the game. As soon as you finish TWW, you can access it, which is as early as MR5. I've seen SO MANY low MR players that barely have 30 hours in the game, who probably got carried and bombrushed through the map to get to Sedna Junction, and then only focused on gaining Kuva weapons. They're running in lvl 100 Kuva lich missions with MK1 weapons, Taxion and a Kuva Bramma.

This huge power spike, even after Bramma nerf, will not change.

You need to address this by putting a much higher lock on Kuva Lich access, maybe tied to MR15 or something, because this is quite ridiculous. Note that MR on Kuva weapons does nothing, because they come prebuilt in the foundry which will ignore MR requirements.

We are doing a comprehensive review of this issue that players are raising to see what the next steps are.

Adding to what @Casardis said, there is also a lot of players that are forced to engage with Kuva Liches because they simply mercy killed a strangely marked enemy during one mission.

While it would be merely a couple days of annoyance for someone with experience of the game, new players will be left stuck with a nemesis that yells at them everytime they log in and steals their resources.
They will rarely be able to even complete the Lich controlled mission unless someone with better gear helps them, in which case they'll be just a dead weight walking across the map trying not to die.

Please consider making Kuva Liches access a higher priority going forward.
I know these are difficult times and you guys have a lot to tackle, but the longer this issue goes unattended, the more it will harm the new player (as well as any player) experience.

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Few things (disclaimer: I don't play pubs very often so I don't know what that experience is like for the "meta", and I have taken a few weeks off recently)

  1. Why are people so incensed about what seems to amount to an AOE nerf, which isn't even that drastic (radius increases are pretty powerful, due to math being math a small radius increase gives a large area benefit, plus the falloff change is a big boon)
  2. For those crying that nerfs (and this happens on like, every nerf ever) are "ruining fun", why do you give a S#&$??? If you really have fun just spamming a weapon blindly that'll just wipe any enemy off the map, why don't you just play earth missions? You clearly aren't in it for the challenge, so why do you care about playing the "challenging" content? Just play a lower level mission and you'll be able to play without having to try once more
    1. But, you must realize a fundamental part of game design is a skill and/or investment payoff. Players need to be motivated to continue to progress by needing better gear, and having the chance to acquire it. So, to keep a meaningful player base, DE has to ensure all the way up until the last MR ranks when you basically get addicted or don't, you are incentivized to seek out the new gear and continue progressing. Having an MR5 bramma that means nothing else in the game matters anymore destroys that. Even if you have an MR16 bramma that does that, it still means players have no reason to invest hundreds of hours ranking other weapons. Why bother, you already have the best thing. There's 20 frames you don't have yet? Doesn't matter, you have a tank and a bramma, you don't need damage abilities or buffs, just bramma everything. On the side players might care even less about, if the bramma is all that matters, the plat market (which makes DE money) takes a hit. If only the bramma is relevant, the value of rivens for everything else slides, and the total volume of plat being traded goes down. That's not how you make sure your game stays alive.
  3. Even if none of that matters to you and you still just want to be able to run around a tier 5 Lich mission and one shot everything solo, you still can. Just... think for a few seconds when making your loadout before jumping in instead of hitting auto-equip in your mod screen. There are plenty of resources to help you if you actually can't figure out how to build things on your own. But needless to say, the bramma is far from the only way to trivially clear any mission in the game, solo or otherwise.
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16 minutes ago, Kratosthe1st said:

To be honest they will nerf it again, these changes are nothing the weapon will still be heavily used, they need to give it the catchmoon treatment so that we find something else to take its place,

I am curious about the usage of catchmoon

No they better not best way to fix it without messing with it anymore is to MR lock it a simple fix 

 

If they Nerf it anymore people will quit Warframe & never return because people don't want to play a game that consistently nerfs weapons & stuff 

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Implement self damage again, make the bomb-lets do self damage and watch as the rampart whining about the weapon stops as the herd stops using it because they are largely inept and cant handle an occasional self-detonate (because i find it hard to believe that some people have a pet/ally/enemy step in front of them each time they pull the trigger but its easier to blame something other than oneself for it)

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48 minutes ago, StormWolf1337 said:

I meant to make it a more even line across what's usable in high level content but even when is everything became OP, like with many other games, fun factor would probably be the deciding bit. 

Well, to be fair, this is not possible to achieve in warframe's current state.

A significant number of weapons in the game are so fundamentally different that it is impossible to make them in line with each other without trivializing everything in the game.

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54 minutes ago, Xaero said:

New quest + new warframe + new weapons + new tileset = 5%

One weapon being nerfed = 90%

Sure.

One weapon? Are you blind or have you not seen all the "rebalances" DE has done. They have rebalanced more weapons than actual content drop. You can legit count how many updates they have done in a year with one hand lol. 

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