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Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.


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On 2020-06-08 at 5:01 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere
- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
- Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m
- Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

We will be monitoring feedback after these changes go live to ensure we’ve struck a better balance of having a powerful weapon - but not one that overshadows everything else in the game to the detriment of your squadmates.

I don't think anyone can fairly say the Bramma wasn't a skosh OP. But this appears rather sweeping, doesn't it? How about an ammo reserve of 8/9 and 4 cluster bombs? And as far as the not being able to see...why can't you just turn down the particle effects per cluster? My fear is this is going to be the next Penta. That was my go-to weapon for a long time (in fact, I think it's still my all-time most-used weapon in my stats, and I haven't used it in years.) That thing was nerfed so hard, it's never bounced back. Is this going to be how "feedback" is going to be "monitored?" Nerf it to hell and then forget about it?

Many of us specifically spent time hunting down a larvaling for the Bramma and then maxxing out the level once we got it. How about at least refunding a few forma for current Bramma owners to pump into their next nerf-fuel weapon? 

Not surprised it's getting a nerf, but disappointed how deep the cut is. Yet another fun weapon relegated to the scrap heap. Thanks bunches.

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Cool. As someone who loves the Bramma, I acknowledge that it needed some adjustments. The Lenz is now competitive against it again with these changes.

Now there's the problem of making anything other than Bramma and Lenz viable primaries. Stuff that eats too much ammo/gets too little back like Kohm come to mind as decidedly non-viable compared to bigger and better things even with ammo mutation. Maybe make adjustments to how much ammo Kohm and other high ammo capacity weapons get back per pickup? Even with ammo mutation, Twin Grakatas, Kohm/Kuva Kohm, etc. seem to run dry and stay dry in anything longer than a Capture.

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Kuva Bramma's damage output is on par with other top tier weapons. Its popularity is not due to it being overpowered, its popular for the fact that it is fun to use and labeled as 'meta' by the community.

Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about/lacks math skills.

Edited by (PS4)Ares_Arizen
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Not surprised, but In my case despite the weapon being powerful it was the most fun primary weapon that ive used next to the synoid simullor + mirage before its nerf. 

Anyways, its just a game we can always play or do something else when we are bored instead of complaining. 

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13 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Well, and children do not like vegetables, yet those are necessary. Seems there is no purpose in this discussion, since you were not intending to discuss anything in the first palce.

Nerfs compared to vegetables, that's a weak comparison.. There's always a case for nerfs hurting a game more than making it better and there's even a few players that will leave WF for a bit or forever because their favorite weapon was nerfed. Frankly too it's an insult to a player's invested time after most people have Forma'd theirs at least 5-6 times already. And I would be interested in discussing the topic further if your approach was to have a civil discussion instead of hostility. To try and debate someone whose main points are to attack, well there's nothing to be gained there but wasted time.

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The games design encourages a player to obtain a weapon add a catalyst add forma and hunt down mods to make the weapon totally awesome. The downside is that when the weapon is awesome and others see and follow the same path to enjoy the level of fun and awesomeness DE feels it is time to make adjustments as that awesomeness makes other weapons look too weak.

I would dump the innate stats on all weapons. Give all weapons a basic damage of points period. Then allow a mod path where a player chooses their farmed resources to make choices..... Add 5% crit or 5% Status. Add 5% toxin electric or Heat etc. This would add diversity as each and every weapon would have countless variations.

If players had to invest their time and use their brains to make a weapon OP then you would not have the situation where a weapon is used by almost everybody at the same time simply because the base stats are way out of proportion to other weapons and a 30 seconds youtube vid tells you which mods to apply and done deal blast everything in less time than it takes enemies to spawn.

It does not matter what you do with any weapon right now..the limits to modding a weapon are simply too static. 8 mod slots and Forget the exilus slot as it is simply redundant on 90% of weapons. of the thousands of mods to be farmed in game only a handful are used almost exclusively therefore zero diversity. 90% of all Rubicos are the same as are 90% of all weapons. There is no player choice is the reality once a player has reached mastery level 15 as they have by that time gathered every mod they require to build the best possible outcome which is again shared on youtube. That is the reason why rivens are the one source of diversity. they are the only source of a modification that can possibly lead to my Rubico being different than the Rubico of the next player because the other 7 mod slots are using the same mods.

Giving players new weapons is nice but so many weapons are simple mastery fodder and the ones people adopt as they are fun become too popular you then decide OOPS THAT WAS A MISTAKE:

I am not complaining just stating a fact as after 5298 hours of gameplay the formulae is as i posted earlier

New weapon 🙂

Farm it build it add a catalyst add the forma make it powerful wait for the nerf and then wait for the next:

New weapon  🙂

Farm it etc etc rinse and repeat.

 

 

 

Edited by johnno23
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On 2020-06-09 at 4:38 PM, Loza03 said:

Numbers really aren't the core of it.

I mean, sure, you can just go to level 1000 and need to spam invisibility powers and scaling oneshots instead of nukes, but... that's still a problem. You're still treating every enemy identically, there's still no variety to gameplay, and you're still not really thinking about the game.

That's why content feels so shallow. The game is as wide as an ocean and as deep as a puddle.

And I'm afraid power creep and balance issues helped us get there, and are stopping us from fixing it. And nerfs are needed to get out of this.

Not thinking about the numbers is exactly what i was implying in my post lol. there will always be that 1 weapon or frame that people will go to. you might aswell nerf everything in the game to dirt not just bramma, if everyones going to cry about weapons being "too op" the visual/audio i agree is annoying with the bramma, but even back when synoid simulor was op, looking back at it what did nerfing it honestly solve? the meta just shifted and that will always just keep happening.

I think we need more variations within each factions. Nox's are a good example of this where their weak point is their head. If the Dev's would elaborate more on that and introduce more unique enemies i think we would see a very positive change to the day to day gameplay.

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1 minute ago, --Aegis--Cody said:

Not thinking about the numbers is exactly what i was implying in my post lol. there will always be that 1 weapon or frame that people will go to. you might aswell nerf everything in the game to dirt not just bramma, if everyones going to cry about weapons being "too op" the visual/audio i agree is annoying with the bramma, but even back when synoid simulor was op, looking back at it what did nerfing it honestly solve? the meta just shifted and that will always just keep happening.

I think we need more variations within each factions. Nox's are a good example of this where their weak point is their head. If the Dev's would elaborate more on that and introduce more unique enemies i think we would see a very positive change to the day to day gameplay.

There will always be one that people consider the best, true. But, here's the thing, in a better-made system, the other playstyles are themselves viable enough and fun enough that you don't feel like you're gimping yourself by taking them. And/or that 'best' item requires skill, understanding or co-operation beyond the reams of casual play. Sometimes both. Sometimes the 'best' option for casual is massively removed from the 'best' for high level play. You can see things like that in the likes of Monster Hunter, speedruns, Devil May Cry, even the likes of Destiny.

And then you have Warframe. Warframe says 'high level gameplay is putting together an elaborate drinking bird setup and going to make tea'.

The idea that everything either needs to be vanilla or overpowered is a false dichotomy.

 

Quite frankly, I see Noxes thrown around pretty often as good examples of game design, as something that isn't as easily cheesed as good Warframe design. As a Limbo player who can de-activate the entire map without even the faintest risk to myself, including the Noxes, I have to say that, no, they're not. No amount of weak-point design is going to stop that. And I'm fairly sure the immortal Chroma and the permanently invisible Loki over there agree. Simply put, Noxes are better, but not by much.

This is what it means for something to be overpowered. The game can be plenty easy - even somewhat unbalanced in a calculated way - but our power has reached the point where it closes off vast amounts of DE's design space. That needs to change.

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4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

There will always be one that people consider the best, true. But, here's the thing, in a better-made system, the other playstyles are themselves viable enough and fun enough that you don't feel like you're gimping yourself by taking them. And/or that 'best' item requires skill, understanding or co-operation beyond the reams of casual play. Sometimes both. Sometimes the 'best' option for casual is massively removed from the 'best' for high level play. You can see things like that in the likes of Monster Hunter, speedruns, Devil May Cry, even the likes of Destiny.

And then you have Warframe. Warframe says 'high level gameplay is putting together an elaborate drinking bird setup and going to make tea'.

The idea that everything either needs to be vanilla or overpowered is a false dichotomy.

 

Quite frankly, I see Noxes thrown around pretty often as good examples of game design, as something that isn't as easily cheesed as good Warframe design. As a Limbo player who can de-activate the entire map without even the faintest risk to myself, including the Noxes, I have to say that, no, they're not. No amount of weak-point design is going to stop that. And I'm fairly sure the immortal Chroma and the permanently invisible Loki over there agree. Simply put, Noxes are better, but not by much.

This is what it means for something to be overpowered. The game can be plenty easy - even somewhat unbalanced in a calculated way - but our power has reached the point where it closes off vast amounts of DE's design space. That needs to change.

The only thing i can think of is the whole system is flawed. % damage bonus to weapons and frames makes the power creep absurd. id rather have weak weapons with a "higher reward per kill" system where instead of blowing through masses of hordes every enemy may be worth killing or noticably contributing to the missions success & rewards.

Idk mate, im just tired of feeling obligated to pump forma (5 forma for rank 40 kuva weps) for later down the road to feel scammed of not only my plat invested but also my time. its rather depressing.

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Just now, --Aegis--Cody said:

The only thing i can think of is the whole system is flawed. % damage bonus to weapons and frames makes the power creep absurd. id rather have weak weapons with a "higher reward per kill" system where instead of blowing through masses of hordes every enemy may be worth killing or noticably contributing to the missions success & rewards.

Idk mate, im just tired of feeling obligated to pump forma (5 forma for rank 40 kuva weps) for later down the road to feel scammed of not only my plat invested but also my time. its rather depressing.

If I might shamelessly plug my own thread?

I've had ideas of at least something to improve the situation in regards to damage - mainly, the problem being that your regular mook and your elite that aren't meant to be treated the same are.

I acknowledge that the idea has its limits, but I believe it'd be a step, and a journey isn't completed in one step.

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I love bows, my reason for getting my Bramma just was that simple thing. Still have to build a Lenz and Zhuge though for complete set... My thing is as said: if players complained about noise (I use Supress but never noticed this supposed ear-piercing noise Bramma makes) and the graphics- how's that equal nerf? Gara'll have her wall cut next. It can take effort making one: 11+ Larvlings to get my first Bramma at 26% Toxin and as of writing 20 Larvlings and no sign of another to Valence Fuse her. MR20+ the bow would not be fair, I'm MR19 so I'd lose my bow I'm already grinding hours to improve just because someone got butthurt that MR5 kids have her? Yes up it to MR15 say but not higher as MR7 clears a Star Chart as it is.

The nerfs were really not as bad as expected, though my friend hates the Bramma so much it's like he is in my face with these just because I find the bow fun to use.

Those on about PuGs? Easy solution, brace yourselves as it's not for the faint-hearted... Don't PuG! Oh gawd did that fry braincells? Seriously, you want to kill my bow I work hard at just because you hate it- don't PuG then. I'm a Soloist for the reason I hate speedrunners who just want to be in, complete, out yesterday not explore a map thoroughly - yes Volt and Gauss mains looking at you guys. I like taking my time, so I have to be Solo. So why be more Blizzard and kill the fun just because of crybabies who hate not being the top of every imaginary DPS board complain Saryn and Bramma are oh gawd having fun too?

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That have the ability to see how popular every frame and weapon in the game is.

When something is the most popular, they nerf it.

Instead they could buff the least popular item, not with a whole rework,
like they did and failed with the last few frames,
but just a stat boost.

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AoE weapons in general were nerfed because of Bramma. This isn't yet enough for the weapon that virtually removed all other AoE weapons from the game.

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I must say that I'm not a fan of the changes to the cluster bomblets. It's a lot of fun to spread repeating explosions off one shot. Maybe if you need to go through with this particular change, add a new weapon that clusters to that extent?

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🙂 actually rather funny as games for fun give a weapon to up the enjoyment then they get broken so we are sad and then they make a new fun weapon to make us happy again 🙂

Kinda makes me think DE are refining the meaning of the "love hate relationship"

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Ammo nerf doesn't change anything because ammo mutation & exilus slot exist.

Not sure about how the cluster bomb number change affects the performance. It will definitely reduce the damage, but doesn't seem to matter at normal contents since explosive damages are always overkill at normal contents.

Would have been better if it was something else like fire rate or direct AoE nerf instead of DPS because all the DPS nerf does is only make it worse at end game contents instead of balancing for contents that make up most of the gameplay,

Edited by Jangkrik
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10 hours ago, Awazx said:

What you have achieved with this unnecessary nerf is to generate even more mistrust in many of your players, who will no longer be sure to invest 6 ways and tens of hours to upload their favorite weapon at the risk of another imminent nerf.

So true, unfortunately 😞

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A friendly suggestion.

Change how the policy works. Release weapons after proper testing please. Like really, test it yourselves to make sure it isn't broken. Don't go changing things after so long after many players have invested so much time after a certain weapon. 

 

If you must adjust / nerf. There should be a rule where it's done within 45 days of release. That should give enough time to look at charts and usage (simce somehow you guys would release some weapons without thinking it would be too op) after the said 45 days. NO stat change should be applied no matter what. Just no. If earlier testing wasn't enough. 45 days should be. After that, stats remain the same. 

 

Also, why always the nerf. Is it not possible to look at some weapons and say how bad they are compared to others and buff them too? For the sake of balance. Not saying make everyone meta but there are some utter MR fodder weapons that could see a bit of light here and there. 

 

I am just giving this idea because like many players, I would be scared of investing much more on a weapon I like and to see it get nerf is a slap on the face. I know its to keep balance. But it's also PvE. So there has to be a limitation to how much something can be changed. So players can confidently spend time on something and stick with it without fearing one day stats will drop. 

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3 hours ago, Cosmic_Executioner said:

If you must adjust / nerf. There should be a rule where it's done within 45 days of release.

Would be good, but then again something simple like the Pandero has had fire delays and bugged firing since release (3 years) and has yet to be addressed.

I feel like the whole system needs to be examined in depth. Guns, mods, frames, and to an extent melee again. I know melee basically had it's second major revamp, but things like lifted status and stances that were smooth made to be clunky (like Tempo Royale) kind of shows that things need to be reevaluated.

Otherwise you get things like the Bramma that straight up blows everything out of the water. The weapon could be nerfed down to 1/7th of it's damage and it would still be powerful but comparable to other weapons.

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3 hours ago, Cosmic_Executioner said:

If you must adjust / nerf. There should be a rule where it's done within 45 days of release. That should give enough time to look at charts and usage (simce somehow you guys would release some weapons without thinking it would be too op) after the said 45 days. NO stat change should be applied no matter what. Just no. If earlier testing wasn't enough. 45 days should be. After that, stats remain the same. 

No. Players just won't use/invest in them during the first 45 days after the release.

 

8 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

The weapon could be nerfed down to 1/7th of it's damage and it would still be powerful but comparable to other weapons.

Not really. Bramma is currently less powerfull than many weapons like Ogris, Acceltra or Nukor. Without speaking of melee weapons.

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