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[DE]Rebecca

Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.

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29 minutes ago, MacIntoc said:

Not really. Bramma is currently less powerfull than many weapons like Ogris, Acceltra or Nukor. Without speaking of melee weapons.

Bramma, not even including the cluster bombs does an aoe of 839.

Ogris has an aoe of 600.

 

Now add in Kuva damage bonuses and cluster bombs, it clearly does LOTS more damage.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-06-08 at 3:05 PM, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Just a reminder: if a Bramma main gets angry as if they weren't expecting something like this, that's on them. 

Thats what i say!!

even more so if you would pay hundreds and thousands of platinum for a bramma riven.

like did you seriously think they werent obviously gonna have to nerf bramma? Pffft

 

totally not anyones fault but their own.

 

This is why you grind for it, and not pay to win.

Edited by (PS4)Rook117
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Bramma, not even including the cluster bombs does an aoe of 839.

Ogris has an aoe of 600.

 

Now add in Kuva damage bonuses and cluster bombs, it clearly does LOTS more damage.

ogris have a larger AoE, less damage fallof and an augment that make 3 times the damage as fire DoT on a similar AoE without fallof.

Looking at the number is great. Looking at the effect and possibilities is far better.

Edited by MacIntoc
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Posted (edited)

Its also pretty wack that the Kuva Brammas Cluster Bombs are WAY more powerful than the Scimitars own Cluster Bombs.

 

Makes no sense that a bow has more firepower per shot than the Scimitars entire Payload.

 

Its embarassing. 

Edited by (PS4)Rook117
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Rook117 said:

Its also pretty wack that the Kuva Brammas Cluster Bombs are WAY more powerful than the Scimitars own Cluster Bombs.

 

Makes no sense that a bow has more firepower per shot than the Scimitars entire Payload.

 

Its embarassing. 

Are you saying that DE should nerf every weapons because they all ouperform the Sentry Gun of Xyphos ?🤣

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On 2020-06-08 at 11:01 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

t so that:

- It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere
- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
- Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m
- Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

 

LeL ... who cares about the ammo nerf. Double ammo converter, on carrier and weapon itself, are enough to even over compensate that "tweak".

Clusterbombs were useless anyways. The main impact is the main damage dealer. Nothing withstands it. And those "many many explosions block view" being complained by probably 1% of the community.

As said, main impact is the king.

 

A failed nerf, again, like with Saryn for her 4th time. 😂

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, MacIntoc said:

ogris have a larger AoE, less damage fallof and an augment that make 3 times the damage as fire DoT on a similar AoE without fallof.

Looking at the number is great. Looking at the effect and possibilities is far better.

This is not correct.

1. Falloff doesn't mean that you will be doing the minimum damage all the time -- in fact, most of the time you will be doing most of the damage. Ogris' falloff is also 80%, meaning there is little difference between Bramma and Ogris' falloff in practice. Bramma also has more AoE than Ogris, because it has +0.4m base range, and then the 7 cluster bombs increase the practical range by a lot.
2. Kuva Ogris has almost no critical and absolutely no slash damage to speak of. One of the things that makes Kuva Bramma so strong is the fact that it can be used a Hunter Munitions weapon. With the massive base damage of Bramma, Bramma can easily kill extremely high level enemies in just a couple of shots using Slash procs. It also has high status, meaning that you can easily couple Viral for mega slash procs.
3. The Kuva Ogris only has 3 ammo capacity and a rather lengthy reload. While Bramma has slightly less fire rate so to speak (0.4 charge rate and 0.6 reload per shot, vs Ogris' 1.5 fire rate), Bramma never has to do the 2.1s second reload. This also means that Bramma can just spam shots everywhere, whereas the Ogris must be used slower and more deliberately (which is how the Bramma should be used, but due to the high ammo capacity, no end reload and ammo mutations, it doesn't have to be), meaning that in practice, Bramma has more DPS.
4. Cluster Bombs allow the Bramma to do A LOT of status, and also counters nullifiers, which it shouldn't.

Kuva Ogris is a very good weapon, but it most definitely not better than the Kuva Bramma. I don't understand why people live in this fantasy where Bramma isn't the best primary weapon for 99% of content.

Edited by (NSW)Matt-S

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18 minutes ago, MacIntoc said:

ogris have a larger AoE, less damage fallof and an augment that make 3 times the damage as fire DoT on a similar AoE without fallof.

Doesn't matter, as Bramma has higher crit and status chance (bomblets apply status, which is not shown in the UI.). Its Viral + hunter munitions significantly outclasses Orgis's DPS whilst covering more ground with the bomblets thanks to the fact that they apply Bramma's statuses.

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12 minutes ago, MacIntoc said:

Are you saying that DE should nerf every weapons because they all ouperform the Sentry Gun of Xyphos ?🤣

No dum dum. Im saying they should buff 1 orbiter.

 

not nerf every weapon in the game. 
 

Logic. Use it.

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Posted (edited)

@(NSW)Matt-S

@Aadi880

In fact, you right. Please, don't believe me. But moreover, don't try it yourself. Stay as far away from this weapon as possible. The less you will use it, the less complains it will create. And no cry, no nerf, like Bobby said. Everybody is happy 😋

 

@(PS4)Rook117

Ok, sorry for the misunderstanding 😉

Edited by MacIntoc

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Posted (edited)

Hello everyone,

My two cents:

First of all, to sum up the rest of my post (as I know some people are too lazy to actually read it) (don't hate me - read me) I'm just gonna say this video, by J.R. Jeriko, is a mandatory for everyone here, discussing different weaps in WF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTyrgVv9uo0 

If you don't get my point after viewing it... well - your loss 🙂

On with this post, however:

Firstly, it's a shame about that ammo cap reduction - bramma will be more alike with Lenz in this respect now. Secondly, I personally think the problem is not with the bramma itself being so overpowered - the problem going on has ever been the self-damage removal. Such overpowered weaps (not only bramma, but orgis and lenz among others) were rid of their being fun, because there's no penalty for insufficiently planned usage. If you would plant (IRL) a landmine on some field where cows and other herds are grazed it'd be no surprise that you had a penalty: you planted a mine because you wanted to kill a tank - instead you got rid of whole herd of cows. It's a trade-off: you want to be powerful - be responsible along the way.

Okay, but that's a subject forgotten already. Another thing - nerfing bramma reduces the fun of playing with it - okay, so very true! And all the talk about how the nerf is fun-killing and so on - I agree... BUT: to some degree only. Firstly, did you guys really think a weapon that powerful wouldn't be nerfed someday in the future? Then the point about paying for say riven for bramma 1k plat and getting the weap nerfed causes somebody to quit the game is to me... dubious in the least. As I say - weapon that powerful was bound to be nerfed - so it's on you, if you decided to pay 500$ in real cash to buy plat - to buy the riven. Having said that - however - the idea of nerfing it when someone had done it - payed for the said upgrade (riven) - well, it's just the opposite to "Tenno play free"... However, then again - a FTP game always has some caveat and means of getting your real money into play, so let's just agree on that it's a self defeating and pointless arguing for the sake of the arguing as it seems.

My another, third cent, would be a plea to the DE to instead of nerfing a weap such as bramma - it's there already, so community has gotten used to it, so don't take away the WHOLE fun... Just maybe take another take on this: INSTEAD of nerfing the stats of this powerful weapon, MR lock it up, like to MR 22 or something. Then you are fair to people who already got this weap and already modified it to their own personal preference, while at the same time you don't get people whining about aborting the mission when some youngster just get it that you don't only blow everything up in this game when you are in a squad. And don't get me started on "Well, don't go public then you noob" - again, this is pointless argument, and not related to my post at all. But, in fact, when you are in a squad, you agree to let other people play too, and it's extremely obtrusive and annoying when you flash every oher player's screen with your pinkish energy blast color, because you need to be visible. It's annoying - just like the attarax sweeping combo use was back when the [Maim] mod was a thing. You wanna fire it up everywhere - go solo - you've got your bramma - I think you can handle that 😉

Tu sum up: bramma nerf for or against? - AGAINST.

MR lock up higher - definite FOR (YES YES YES)!

 

Galadh

 

EDIT: Besides... nerfing weapons such as rubico or bramma is bad for business, DE, it's very bad for business... 😉

EDIT2: Instead of putting in powerful weaps into play, risking having them overpowered - introduce them "nerfed" at the start. People like upgrades more than nerfs, Tenno will thank you for that - not whine about it. GOOD for business :)

 

 

Edited by Galadh
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Rather than nerf something, how about buff abandoned old weapons?

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1 hour ago, MacIntoc said:

In fact, you right. Please, don't believe me. But moreover, don't try it yourself. Stay as far away from this weapon as possible. The less you will use it, the less complains it will create. And no cry, no nerf, like Bobby said. Everybody is happy 😋

Stop using my favorite weapon?

No thanks.

Thanks for the useless advice though.

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12 hours ago, DeweySalt said:

It's sad to see this day come, another weapon nerfed into the ground by the fun police crowd. Time to dust off Mesa and go back to 4 spamming.

Name, uh, checks out?

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On 2020-06-08 at 4:01 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are changing it so that:

- It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere
- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
- Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m
- Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

From someone who uses Kuva Bramma since Release, I feel like the Ammo would affect me the most. I've used it in different Areas (long Survivals, everyday Missions, and Railjack) and in everyday Missions, Ammo Mutation Mods only helps a little for it with 15 Ammo. But for long Survivals and Railjack/Anomaly, Ammo Mutation Mods means a lot and it would be needed even more with 5 Ammo after Deadlock Protocol since it only uses Sniper Ammo. The changes to the Cluster Bombs looks fine since before Deadlock Protocol, they barely do anything besides procing Status and dealing damage in Mag's Bubble.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-06-09 at 4:45 PM, (XB1)MonStream00 said:

DE first of all thanks for the amazing game! Please don't become like Destiny were nerf all my year one raid weapons and make me grind for them again as exotics. Thus Warframe happened!

I understand change but this does feel like a huge nerf. I have one and I don't use it all the time. I say let people use what they like and let people grind for the weapons they want. If you fill Kuva is overwhelming, maybe the better solution is to have a public match making with an option to ban annoying weapons and frames you don't want others to come in with.....or just play solo. This change that you are about to do could be a short term solution to the bigger issues. It will be interesting to see if it is even useful afterwards. I wonder if DE should think about giving back Forma and Catalyst's if they Nerf a weapon so much.

One way to limit the usage of one single weapon is to take the sortie modifier "x weapon archetype only" and slap it onto some more activities(relics, bounties, nightmare missions, syndicate missions etc. etc.)
I'd actually like to be forced to come out of my comfort zone and try to build or use stuff I don't normally go for. I have at least one weapon built for each "class"(auto rifle, shotgun, sniper, bow, crossbow, explosive launcher etc.) and I'd like to use some of them more, hence why lately, me and a buddy are rolling a random.org before going into longer missions and choose weapons/frames from a list. It's actually pretty fun.

Edited by DeLawrence
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On 2020-06-09 at 12:01 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.

I think:

1) Remove bomblets. Completely. 

2) Increase arrow's direct damage. Make it 300 (That is less than Euphona's slugs...and takes much more precision).  Reduced explosion range upon direct hit on enemy or surface (4 meters)

3) Mid flight trigger (alt fire) creates bigger explosion with 8m range.   Explosion damage is 900 ( I believe this damage is enough...As even a single Electric proc from this will absolutely destroy things)

 

So you either focus on a single target, or boom entire groups of smaller enemies.  Not both with same arrow.

Adjust ammo economy as you see fit, as it barely matters. Even if its just ONE arrow.  Carrier or mutation. Spam all day.

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At the end of the game this game belongs to Digital Extremes. Anything they choose to do, any creative direction they decide on, any changes they decide to implement, even if its to burn the game to the ground, it's their decision. Their right. For me, I've been playing Warframe since the beginning and am thankful for the 7 years of entertainment that Digital Extremes has provided me. Have they done everything the way I've wanted them to? No. But, you can't make everyone happy all the time. I'm sure even internally they disagree on some of their creative directions. At the end of the day when I tabulate all the positives and negatives, they've done a tremendous job. In my opinion this is the best video game ever created. Thank you Digital Extremes for everything you've done.

-----

The kuva bramma is quite well balanced with other top tier weapons in this game. It's not overpowered by any means and am surprised that so many players here aren't evaluating it objectively (perhaps haven't calculated the damage output or taken it in endless missions to see where it caps out?) Confirmation bias?

 

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I wonder which are the most used warframes by people who post about about being happy about this change, (but I suppose the usual aoe nuking frames are all there together with Limbos that prevent others from having fun) or the level of the enemies they usually go against. Because you all say this or that is OP of a said weapon...

But the higher the level of the enemies the less powerful primary and secondary weapons become. I can have a bramma with me in a high level mission and never use it or use it once or twice, simply because the higher you go, the more you literally melt enemies with melee weapons. Or you use other weapons that are more useful simply because they deal a lot more dot against single targets. Bramma and others smilar weapons perform well until a certain level, then they become pretty much useless, that's why they are fun weapons to clear low/mid/sortie level missions, but not so useful after that.

"With 5 ammo bramma will be on pair with the Lenz!!!". Yeah, that's the point. NO ONE USES THE LENZ, even with mods to convert ammo. Nor the other weapons with so few ammos. Ask yourself why, even if they're powerful. Because they become completely useless the higher you go and the more you are swarmed by enemies.

"It's too powerful, we have to reduce the damage and the magazine!!!" Yes. Ok. 5 ammo. Cool. Meanwhile I can do carpet bombing like there's no tomorrow with an Ogris that has a magazine of 33 or a Tonkor with a magazine of 60. Yeah. Balanced. Sure.

And they are introducing hard modes. What's the point of nerfing NOW some weapons that are fun and perform well and that we could finally really test against harder enemies, instead of boosting the tenths of useless weapons that serve the only purpose of being mastery fodder? If you want the players to use more weapons and different loadouts, make the less used useful and fun to use, there's a reason if many of them are never touched again after you master them, and THAT is the real problem. Not the good ones,

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I lost all interest in the weapon when they removed self-damage. Using it and avoiding blowing yourself up was half the fun.

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On 2020-06-09 at 6:57 PM, Loza03 said:

If I had to guess?

Because there's only one meaningful gameplay situation in Warframe right now. Crowd clearing. There's no room for sidegrades, utility weapons, loadouts, because everything save the boss fights only comes down to 'here's a lot of enemies, get rid of them as fast as possible'.  There are very few enemies that matter, those few that do are spammed inconsiderately for some barest hint at variety, which just leads to annoying spam in the form of randomly-appearing deflector shields that turn off powers. Ancient Healers don't matter, Bursas don't matter, Bombards don't matter - we spam Area of Effect weapons or powers into the crowd of mooks they're in and they die just as fast.

In other words, there's no niches for DE to make a weapon to fit into. Precision weapons are fundamentally less powerful than explosives, because a fast time to kill on a single target genuinely does not matter, because you almost never have a reason to burst down a single target. If you do, then that's the only thing you need to do anyway, so now crowd clearers aren't useful (I distinctly remember that during Hostile Mergers). Warframes and players have so few vulnerabilites and are so self-sufficient that support weapons, either of the direct boosting or weakness-covering varieties are irrelevant. Even mobility, one of the biggest selling points of Warframe and one of its most praised elements, isn't meta. Positioning and dodging is irrelevant in the face of nuking.

Without a niche for a weapon to fill, there's nowhere for DE to go to make people excited for a new weapon, because it won't be interesting. With one track, one challenge, one objective to do, then it is either better or it is useless

This is why people warn against power creep. This is why people want more balance and challenge. This is why just following the idea of 'it's a power fantasy, players should never be threatened' leads to the game getting boring. Because DE can't make their own game anymore.

 

But there are ways to balance weapons to suit whatever need. Stuff like giving assault rifles innate +3 mts punchthrough and increase headshot damage to matter far more, which would make precision shooting atleast somewhat comparable to explosive weapons which should not get headshot damage bonus, etc. It might not entirely solve the issue but it will reduce it significantly. Even basic stats like damage are not balanced. And explosive weapon should not do as much damage in one explosion as a full AR clip. Explosion damage should be diluted and AR damage should be boosted. Or maybe give many single target weapons a bullet shatter/splash like Tombfinger or Astilla. There are plenty ways to consider.

Its just that they dont. They rely on riven disposition adjustments, which doesn't do jack really. Weapon balance is a serious issue in the game. And if going back and reconsidering all old weapons is too much trouble, remember they did it for melee with 3.0, effectively reducing the gap between regular melee weapons and zaws, especially plague zaws, significantly. So its doable.

Warframe is basically a looter shooter so the clearing hordes thing is gonna be the mainstay. There is no way around it. They might make some boss, semi boss, elite type mobs, but most of the game is just a crowd clearing dps fiasco. There are ways around it like making CC and buff/debuff more important, but thats too much to ask of DE :')

If they can just take a moment and look at new weapons being released and ask themselves, is this weapon design good or bad, how it will affect other weapons that already exist in game? And take the time to adjust accordingly, thats acceptable enough at this point.

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1 minute ago, Arkennstar said:

But there are ways to balance weapons to suit whatever need. Stuff like giving assault rifles innate +3 mts punchthrough and increase headshot damage to matter far more, which would make precision shooting atleast somewhat comparable to explosive weapons which should not get headshot damage bonus, etc. It might not entirely solve the issue but it will reduce it significantly. Even basic stats like damage are not balanced. And explosive weapon should not do as much damage in one explosion as a full AR clip. Explosion damage should be diluted and AR damage should be boosted. Or maybe give many single target weapons a bullet shatter/splash like Tombfinger or Astilla. There are plenty ways to consider.

Its just that they dont. They rely on riven disposition adjustments, which doesn't do jack really. Weapon balance is a serious issue in the game. And if going back and reconsidering all old weapons is too much trouble, remember they did it for melee with 3.0, effectively reducing the gap between regular melee weapons and zaws, especially plague zaws, significantly. So its doable.

Warframe is basically a looter shooter so the clearing hordes thing is gonna be the mainstay. There is no way around it. They might make some boss, semi boss, elite type mobs, but most of the game is just a crowd clearing dps fiasco. There are ways around it like making CC and buff/debuff more important, but thats too much to ask of DE :')

If they can just take a moment and look at new weapons being released and ask themselves, is this weapon design good or bad, how it will affect other weapons that already exist in game? And take the time to adjust accordingly, thats acceptable enough at this point.

They did go back and look at every single weapon.

It didn't help.

Bringing things up to the level of Bramma isn't a solution, because that makes the problem you bring up - that you only ever do one thing one way - even more pronounced.

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47 minutes ago, _Miyagisan_ said:

"bRaMmA uSeLeSs" "nErFeD tO gRoUnD" 😆

I know right. The overreaction in here is real.

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Just nerf the damage and dont take away the fun part. The way its going right now will just make it pain to use and explosions wont be as satisfying as before.

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