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Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.


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I like how you all be crying about people in the forum asking for nerfs.

 

As if Rebecca didnt just say herself they can clearly see this for themselves just by bringing up their own game stats on player use.

 

Did you seriously think Bramma wouldnt get nerfed the second it was released? Thats on you.

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2 hours ago, CAPSLUCK said:

Since the update Kuva Bramma works differently, but is still a really strong weapon.

However the current Ammo system is pretty bad. You only have 6 arrows and the ammo pickup works really weird.

I made a little test and as you see there is quite a delay between Ammo Pickup and Ammo being ready to go for the Bramma.

I dont know if this is intended or not but it currently pretty bad.

 

This is how ammo mutation works on all weapons. You pick the ammo up, then there is a wait of X number of seconds before it converts. You just don't notice it on other weapons because there's a buffer so your ammo never runs out before the conversion.

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3 hours ago, SpringRocker said:

What you've said, isn't even correct.

Bramma aoe is out to 8.3m. The 10% drop off with kuva damage sets it's outer falloff damage to 134.

Ogris aoe is out to 7.1m. This means 120 damage at max falloff.

 

Bramma has a larger aoe and deals more damage than the Ogris on the edge of it's fall off. Plus the Bramma has cluster bombs which I didn't even add in.

Guy, it's not hard to run out, test things, or do math.

Protip : the game is more reliable than the wiki 😉

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"gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups"  I think getting less ammo is a little different from using all the mods and passives that generate extra ammo and still receive only 1 ammo per collection ... and still delay        

 

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the ammo amount reduction and ammo pick up is truly a bit of an issue especially since the weapon has the rarest ammo in the game. The ammo requirements of this weapon is ,in my opinion, worse than the lenz pre nerf now it is hard to even keep an arrow in most game modes at the moment.

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On 2020-06-08 at 11:01 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.

Surely the screen dazzle effect could be mitigated by changing weapon energy colors to a darker gamma value? Players will still be able to blind their squadmates by using bright energy color patterns on their weapons and warframe abilities.

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On 2020-06-08 at 5:06 PM, Seditious_Spyke said:

why are we not allowed Nice things?

Insert long rant about you being a salty bramma main.

(btw it's a joke)

Edited by Cryonet2
probably incorrect assumption
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Knew it would get nerfed, it was way to powerful.  I'm ok with some damage reduction, and reduction in all the splody all over the place, but the ammo reduction makes it a wasted weapon slot, especially if you like to play solo.  Turns this weapon into a secondary weapon that you have to check every now and then to see if you picked up a couple of arrows.  Sorry to haters but this is a stupid nerf.

Feels more like trading a primary weapon slot for a very limited grenade pouch......

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How about you test stuff before they come out? Oh wait, forgot, you have no test servers. Why is that again? Did you really think that a weapon with ease of use, huge damage numbers and relatively easy acquisition would not be on the top? You guys really make me think that you just do some math, get bored then release the weapons without any foresight.

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On 2020-06-08 at 5:23 PM, -TSA-KenSasaki said:

So ppl have Problems with the effects from the Bramma? U ever playd Vauban or other frames with Massive AoE effekts and annoying colours? 
The Weapon does dmg and ppl have Problems with this but Play Mesa and other Weaposn that can Clear full Enemys Weaves?
We Farm a heavy Grind from Liches to get this Weapon, its not like *here the BP und build it* no we need to farm for it and for what? That it is now BullS#&$?
Why do ppl not play other Weapons? The Problem is not that the Bramma dies Tons of DMG and have nice AoE clear, the Problem is that there is nearly NO OTHER Weapon that can do this!
First Remove Self DMG Cause ppl cant play with it and no one would play bramma, now ppl play bramma cuase self dmg is gone and u wonder why so many ppl play this weapon?
Sryly?
I dont think u understand ur own game at the moment...

List of stuff DE killed:

Zenistar, Catchmoon, Nearly all Shootguns, Amps, Arcanes, Statuses like Gas, and now Bramma.
Whats next?

Probably the Kuva Nukor.

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Man, it always sucks seeing something I really like get nerfed in any game. I can definitely agree it was gonna happen to the Bramma no matter what, but I love big, boomstick weapons. It's is definitely a favorite for me, especially as a lover of bows in this game. And all games, being honest.

I've finished a couple of normal SO runs to see how the nerfs feel. I can agree with the necessity to nerf its overall damage and [slightly] change its AoE potential. It isn't really affecting the overall damage feel, so I can't complain too much. That might be due to the fact that I rarely deal non-crit damage overall (so I can see where people are coming from when calling for a nerf to that aspect as well). Damage-wise, it still feels like the Bramma I got to 40 just a few days ago, on Sunday.

However, that brings me to my gripe: I don't understand why the change to its magazine and ammunition conversions were needed. Allow me to post my build for it for reference:

Spoiler

63c9fc7127.jpg

With the above build, I had 28-ish ammo (if I'm recalling that correctly) and even without moving around much during, say, Survival missions, I rarely wanted for ammo. After patch today, running around collecting ammo constantly while firing significantly less often still leaves that weird-feeling conversion delay that comes with the Ammo Mutation series of mods. Sometimes that gives me enough time to be forced to change to my Nukor (also Kuva, because of course) making having the conversion mod on pointless, as it does not convert if the weapon is not equipped. I can easily say this is, by far, the only serious thing I have to complain about; everything else about the weapon (minus my 70~80k yellows, may they rest in peace) feels exactly the same.

I sincerely hope you guys at DE will test these changes yourself in the coming weeks and at least switch the ammo change back to the way it was. Right now, the ammunition change really grinds my gears. I don't plan on dropping the Bramma anytime soon, though.

tl;dr: Okay, damage nerfs feel fine to Bramma Monkey Brain, but the ammo change very much doesn't. Please consider changing it back? Thank you.
Many POGS were said upon the acquisition of this weapon, in case anyone was wondering.

Edited by Itsumono
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So when are we getting our self-damage back in general, now that the big no-no offender that (along with whining vocal minority) prompted the removal of the risky playstyle niche in the first place has been fixed?

 

Remember:

People who could not enjoy the risks of self-damage (10% or lower of available options) had 90% of other options to select in order to not engage that playstyle.
People who could enjoy the risks of self-damage now have 0% options from which they can select in order to engage that playstyle.

 

There were other solutions - piecemeal triage - that could have reduced the scale of the risk so that the reward didn't have to be Bramma-tier overbearing (ignoring the fact that even the Bramma was mainly used with explicit circumvention of the inherent drawback) in order to be reasonably worthwhile in comparison.

The state of other radial (and 'radial') weapons now barely-usable or just plain irritating to use because stagger is neither a real risk nor a real deterrent - again, unless the player just explicitly circumvents the 'drawback' - is not worth the 10% added 'diversity' and 100% removal of a playstyle.

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While I'm glad to see the visual noise get toned down to something more reasonable and on par with it's poor overshadowed cousin the Zarr, I definitely feel going that deep on the Ammo management is a bit much. 5 with 1 on pick up is, not very intuitive to many playstyles of the game, I feel an 'or' would of been appropriate: 15 reserve with lessened (2 or 3?) pick up per so you have a nice buffer if your not clearing something in a single shot, or are power speed running without a care in the world for loot, or 5 with full refills on pick up so the rare drops you do get are actually helping you out substantially and can even, potentially, get rationed around for use. I don't know if I think any of that was really appropriate though now that it's far less 'carpet bomb' than it used to be as is.

So to state: Bomblett and AoE modifications: Great! more reliable flat damage

Ammo nerf: ... why?

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On 2020-06-09 at 5:01 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.

so uhhh... when are we going to address the bug that causes a bramma to fire different numbers than intended clusters? when the self damage change happened i tested with split chamber and it fired 3-10, firing straight up in the simulacrum, they're very easy to see.

i tested just now and in my 16 shots i had:
2 that fired 3
12 that fired 2
2 that fired 1 (they were even consecutive) 

i also tested 5 shots without split chamber, all 2s and 1s. (small sample size, but indicates split chamber is ignored. also that it can still fire only 1)

also: to the people who were really surprised: the bramma is the second fastest bow, the highest hit damage bow (and its arsenal damage doesn't display the clusters) has high crit and status chance, above base crit multi, and the kuva damage modifier that makes it 60% harder hitting even after half its damage outclassed every other explosive anyway (~25% more damage than the kuva tonkor).
it's still the best gun in the game by a wild margin (aka completely disregarding its kuva modifier and cluster bombs still wins), and the only way DE can really fix the fundamental issue is accepting that weapons without AoE are useless in most content.

Edit: having now seen that the ammo change also causes all ammo pickups to only grant 1 arrow no matter what or how much mutation you have: why? that's such a weird and spiteful change.

Edited by Kaed0x
: having now seen the ammo change in gameplayy
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Have you considered refunding or gifting back part of the forma invested in the weapon?

It has been a long time since release and a lot of players have spent resources making this weapon so it isn't completely fair to nerf it and don't compensate its users...

Edited by Vactro
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Oh the salt, so much salt.  The weapon still has plenty of oomph.  Now you have to aim and *try.*  I know that's a hard concept for some of you who complain because I know aiming is really really difficult.  I'll try not to crack a joke about moms and cleaning up bathroom messes because I know the rules say be respectful buuuuuuuut.  Used my Bramma yesterday with an unleveled Nyx and I still had most of the dps mission after mission.  

Also, poster above; it's not been completely nerfed.  It's still terribly powerful, and like any other Kuva weapon, to gain alllllllll that delicious mastery you have to forma it a few times, and that takes, what?  An hour or two?  So, you're not out of anything more or less than any other kuva weapon, including a pile of the useless ones.  :Shrugs:  

For those who are 'bramma mains,' you had several good months of fun.  As someone who was previously on a really old computer that did not like the bramma at all, I really, really have no sympathy.  Ya'll knew it'd have to be brought into line and besides, as a game that progresses and moves forward, there will always be something newer, shinier and much more powerful.  That is the nature of multiplayer games; and DE largely handles such transitions with far more grace than most game companies.  I'd hate to see how ya'll would act if DE took some pages out of how MMOs worked.  

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5 minutes ago, Verashai said:

Oh the salt, so much salt. 

Creates a post full of salt to complain about salt, solid logic. 

 

6 minutes ago, Verashai said:

 Now you have to aim and *try.*  I know that's a hard concept for some of you who complain because I know aiming is really really difficult. 

Because a bow with exploding arrows needs to be used like a sniper rifle, solid logic again. 

 

6 minutes ago, Verashai said:

.. you have to forma it a few times, and that takes, what?  An hour or two?  

1 forma takes 23 hours to build, in addition to the time taken to acquire it. 

 

6 minutes ago, Verashai said:

I really, really have no sympathy.  

This is the very definition of privilege. It's sad, having not played this game for some years to come back and see that people still have the "I can't have / don't like so no one must have" attitude still. I really thought the community had matured more than that. 

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I'm going to resist the urge to rant. Basically, add my voice to the chorus of folks who say the # of bomblets and overall damage is ok, but the new ammo situation sucks. Please, PLEASE consider a more even-handed refinement to this "fix" and meet us halfway. Give us 8 arrows and Carrier/ammo mods work as they used to. Thanks.

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On 2020-06-09 at 2:38 AM, Casardis said:

Thank you for addressing the huge power spike that is the Bramma!

However, this doesn't change one important thing in regards to new player experience: Kuva Liches are accessed WAY too early in the game. As soon as you finish TWW, you can access it, which is as early as MR5. I've seen SO MANY low MR players that barely have 30 hours in the game, who probably got carried and bombrushed through the map to get to Sedna Junction, and then only focused on gaining Kuva weapons. They're running in lvl 100 Kuva lich missions with MK1 weapons, Taxion and a Kuva Bramma.

This huge power spike, even after Bramma nerf, will not change.

You need to address this by putting a much higher lock on Kuva Lich access, maybe tied to MR15 or something, because this is quite ridiculous. Note that MR on Kuva weapons does nothing, because they come prebuilt in the foundry which will ignore MR requirements.

finally someone speaks revelant point ..de go for it 

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i have never used the kuva brama. but i want to say that i agree it was annoying and powerful, but it should at least feature soem reaload and roll over features, or passive traits to complete its changes which allow the charged shots to function with a laser sight and AOE drop off idea, am asumming that the changes in the next patch mean that you can get extra ammo and multishots afrom pickups as well as aim time duration and reload button feature, i have never used the weapon but hope it gets the best features, and some of the other weaker bows and kitguns in the market get updated because there is no great bow, even the artemis bow and larger dojo bows have failed to impress from the start, i can say fix the MK-1 bow to have reload and roll/pickup channels for shooting at least there showulb be some aiming and gunningmechanic or transition bonuses to have the players switching to ther secondaries or melee make any sense with the bow being fully loaded maybe energy is generated or temporary functions are generated for the player and team mates, not just the abilities and passives of faster reload and pops[eeed, i think that is little, this cna be minima[,[p, and walllacht and other few things added to bow and secondary weappons so they dont feel lame, Energy channel seems like a horrible mod, you might want to change that to something more intriguing with 5 diviations or variations which make players think about channeling mode and sprinting or reloading, abilitiyu cast and pickups copy or refund something, 

as far as some new aughments for the brama will be easy to see that the secondary pistol and melee get some buffs, and energy based or channeling refunds which allow the players to benefit from having the bow on their backs as a capaciotr to make AOEs and umbral features andor some slidding and ducking passive hidden benefits without getting too mod or aughment pervy, i can see that players in  cetus can get the Zaws and kitguns to aughment their bows further or get some passive traits to the stances and reload features or like said bonuses which aughment the bow itself for bounties and free roaming, ====what if the bow got some assisting robotic which allows it to deflect damage or gain shields, or actually shoot enemies within proximitty at least the ephemeral sensors can trigger some features and prevent deathe at times, when other tims the minimap benefits when not overwhelmeed to sense loot and crates, fish, or enemies far off, its a big bow, sot its posible to get overshields when charging up and reloading.

I hope this next update can at least look at the artemis and regular bows, not just the kuva bramma, there is room to get pickups and energy pellets into robotics and reload features of passive game, ivara also is hurt, i think there were a few other warframes who are advertized as bow shooting, such as oberon v, and titania who come from the woods as feyarchs, and there is also the game starting bows and kitguns which feature no kitbow proggress in cetus and the other relatys and planets, so why not focus on PVP to have more bow features and operator amps whic can be more barberic and savage per relay and planet, at least this way you can add more music and genras to the game's planets or tilesets, variants

i think there are also other enemies and traps which can benefit from crossbow and kitbow featuers, and bolt(crossbow ammo) or quiver additions which benefit reload, not just in mod, but said charging which makes some weapons feel weak and annoying could have more zoom features and reload optimizations, t

the quiver size and pickups should benefit the players as they open and defeat enemies to gain more reserves and passives, or temporary grants of strenght, which open up like stances for the bows features to recover ammo and use hip and open sight shots, as well as zooming and charged shots to have their own features, this woudl make up for the 5-15 ammo lost of the kuvabramma, but you can assign some more ammo and passive traits or attacks to each bow with level ups and ranks, capacitors and mods which come from shooting it, and forma additions per school, this can mean that Madurai grants some shield regeneation or shrapner to act as melee counter, and added range or particle features, i dont use the bow right now for the same reasons, its limited and lacks diversity, customization and needs to have its own archwing and kitbow, crossbow schools of growth, we have many guns which lack passives and sances, the only adequate warframe seems to be mesa for most occasions because she can shoot, but part of her aughments are somewhat lacking, and restricted by her melee and primary weapons, abilitiys, bow is just held back by realod and quiver /aammo size, or magazine size options, even with elemental and blackmisth improv, the bows need oversight features and introductions to have open world players enjoy their features, even if its tranquilizer and exp bonuses, or passive traits, alarming shoots, and velocity based, charged shots could have barrage and multishot, and occasional booms, magic, glass arrow heads from unlocking gara, or simular features based on the players arsenal and operator progress, markingsm, and runes, and sub bounties.

Edited by SnakeBadger
the bow weapon needs to have passive and reload traits, and featuesf for pickups to function as multishoot, standing still, ducking, zooming, hipfire all lack fierate, features and AOE uniques, stances and aerial dominance per bow, not just kubvabramma, b
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2 hours ago, Gaikki said:

"wAaaAAaaaaAh yOu''rE tAkInG aWaY mY eAsYgAmE!" Couldn't care less. It's not like a little stat difference will ruin the entire weapon and the game.

i gave u a like because of ur style but i dissagree the weapon is a bit overpowered in most circumstances but it neesd to get finetuned and have other new features added, not just a ammo shortage and lesser perks, i wrote alot so i think the bramma coul have better shield and transition overall since its large enough to hold capacitors and additional energy reserves, or features its own farm and quivers to enhance pickups and charged shoots, what it does lack is quick fire game and secondary from what i have seem its all just bow explosions, and there is no magic or anything holding it back so i understood why they reduced its dominationg cartrige, but without added features it leaves the bramma standing horrible like a ducat weapon or something accesible, so it will need crouch , map, and reload featurs, and a few other perks to make the weapon worth while, i dont even own the weapon, butg i hope for the vestion gods to replace its S#&$tier workings and have other blueprints and kitbows to replace it with stance sand pasives, or crossbow enhancemebnts like kitbows and archwing it could be a high velocity and have better charged shots and have some game in built in to stabilize robotics and operator later.

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On 2020-06-08 at 5:01 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Tenno -

If you’ve been plugged into the community discourse since the self damage changes, you’ll have seen a lot of discussions about the Kuva Bramma. 

What makes this formerly self-damaging weapon so much more dominant than the others?

It has quickly taken the place at the top of the usage charts - which is where it should be given its acquisition - but the degree of dominance (about 3 times more popular than anything else) is not something we feel is good for the primary weapon Arsenal options.

We are changing it so that:

- It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere
- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
- Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m
- Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

We will be monitoring feedback after these changes go live to ensure we’ve struck a better balance of having a powerful weapon - but not one that overshadows everything else in the game to the detriment of your squadmates.

You will see these changes in Update 28: The Deadlock Protocol, and we can discuss feedback once they are in your hands.

Until then, Tenno! 

i already said that the bow needs to have more features added with the reduction fo its ammo and resorviories, to accompany the low kit change, a few passive and polarity game changers for the modders could have enhancements and passive, like the melee stances should also have few passive or dormant guiding lights, gunnery machineguns or robotics added which make the game more of sensors and pickup adjustments to make up for the short magazine,

this can also mean that the charged shots could increase withe the pickups from enemies and energy peleets which the players collect, or have it have more temporary properties in combat, versus its dormant shield regenaration and capacitance--the bow should have dormant features to upgrade the warframe's survival on crouch and minimap dominance since its rather large, slidding and gyro mechanics should mix up the concotions and explosive payloads not just on reload and charging which could easily replace ammunition with energy and pickups overall, i have nerver used the bow and would choose a kuva lich before i decide to fire the thing itself, but i think there should be more enhancing features which make openm world and city-life more enhjoyable, trading and glyphs to accompany its stylings.

there are a few other ways to get teh players excited about bows all together not just in recovering the ammuinition or crafting like other games, but rolling and using aerial and bullet jumping to enfeeble or passively add remorse to the shoots, which can mean there are hidden elements and cocktails which allow for RPG like sidewinders and faster shoots without charging and recoil to make rivens shake and fear, the bow is good at 5

  • the bow is good at 5 but i think there could be some pickup adjustments and energy pickup sacrificed towards the use of zoom and reload and charged shots, with teh other game mechanics, you can add some new attacks and ephemeral features, sensors and rewards which are triggered or temporal which also benefit team mates or pets, and robotics who can carry more ammunitipon/
  • alack of ammo should mean making desisive shoots, but recovering and picking up all sorts of items and opening lockers should allow the players to cycle and play with the reload and stow features, crouch and slide should have some quick targeting animations and alternatives to the casual explosive gameplay of bramma,
  • this could mean archwing bramma features are different because of the additional sublets and capacitors allow additinal shields at the cost of ammo charges,
  • pickups and items in the open world should matter.
  • increasing the battle (5) from energy and pickups to (9-17) in combat could transition into different types of ennergy shots and bullets scatter like the aural jumps which feature impact, fire, and other AOE making up the bramma to have more fear-inducing shoots
  • instead of just explosive payloads, to makeshift energy into shields and other powerfulo warframe and school based powerups on pickup and finisher, reload, crouch or walllatch, the playstyle should determine the  bramma gameplay. etc..
  • kitbows
  • enhancements to S#&$tybows: MK-1 bow should have reload and other dominant additions
  • kitbows, pickups enhancing games bow and reload quivers, sliding reload, headshots, bodyshots, and missed shots to have additional features,  ammo creation to give bow users primary options, wheel and crouch, zoom, and AOE
  • overall, finishers and passive features should be added to all bow types.
  • amalgam bow isn't effective enough, you need a katana and some other bullS#&$, its reallybad, 
  • reaload features on the bows its extremely lacking or bad, and lacking temporary, and pickup enhancing the bow,should mean charging and recovery to have time extending and temporary invincibility or immortality in some cases for some higher end bows which require a large capacitor and charge size influencing the payload and playstyle, weapons switching, and energy.
  • a stance and passive trait should be assined to each bow to feel rewarding with growing options on level up and endo allocation, not just forma and reactor but encouragement should go to players who seek further growth in blackmisth , and syndicate, PVP and PVE,.
  • bounties rewards for bow shoudl include a zaw aughments and mods, which make bows more compatible with openworld hunting and fishing, minning or minimap not just combat, maybe like the parazon there can be microchips and items to get at the end of a mission if the bow is ur primary weapon, not just EXP with other pick up or passive based boosters to keep the players training and forging.
  • make bows more compatible!
  • pet retrieval bonus on regular bows, and energy features
  • robotic and energy conversion should mean higher ammo capacitance and charged shots animations changes, and passives or explosive payload changes based on the gameplay / mode inhibitors, traps, and parazon, less mods, more game.
  • reaload features and bow growth for all bows.
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