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Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.

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The Bramma was OP, but not as much as other weapons. I don’t think it should’ve even been touched. DE took all the fun away from using that weapon after killing a lich. That ammo Nerf was unnecessary 

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55 minutes ago, (XB1)TIME P0LICE said:

The Bramma was OP, but not as much as other weapons. I don’t think it should’ve even been touched. DE took all the fun away from using that weapon after killing a lich. That ammo Nerf was unnecessary 

Mainly DE did adress the wrong issues with the weapon without regard for the time wasted in getting it and bringing it to full bonus damage and wanted element!

The only thing that made that weapon overpowered was the eccessively high rate of fire, letting it humiliate the lenz!

Both weapon suffered as well from the changes to launchers due to the removal of self damage and the changes to status 2.0

 

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If the game is too saturated with Bramma users, then increase the mastery rank requirement to use one and keep the weapon the same. This would allow players to set a long-term goal and make mastery rank a more important facet of the game. Higher mastery rank should mean access to more powerful weapons.

Visibility complaints is a thin justification for a nerf. If Players complain about visibility due to innate attributes of the Kuva Bramma, then that means the graphics are accurately depicting a sense of the “fog of war“ associated with cluster bombs. It’s part of what makes the weapon fun to use. I would wager the complaint is actually rooted in a diminished kill count of non-Bramma users.

On a more personal note, I’m sick of my hard work getting nerfed. it took me several weeks to farm a Bramma and then forma it to level 40. If the Kuva Bramma had its current capabilities, I would have never put the time in to grind for it. It feels like a waste and makes me want to stop playing.

The original Bramma was not too overpowered because it was balanced with a small magazine and self-knockdown/damage. In contrast, Ash’s original Blade Storm and Ember’s original World on Fire are examples of things that were too overpowered (even though they were awesome). The cycle of destroying fun and engaging items just because they are polarizing needs to end. 

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Just a spit in the face of the people from the developers who spent a lot of time on farm Bramma Kuva made it level 40 and so on. The developers just say we decided that your time in our game is worth nothing to us.

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Posted (edited)

I just got the bramma after finally decided to do some liches again and in all honesty, it feels unusable.... I literally did a mission, I hit 5 enemies directly, so no spamming, and then I'd ran out of arrows because none of the enemies dropped the ammo I needed, if you're going to nerf ammo like you have, at least give it a common ammo pickup rather than sniper ammo which is the rarest type to drop.  I shouldn't be 'forced' into running carrier or ammo mutation just to make a weapon even remotely usable... to put it bluntly, I'll just take another weapon instead...I suppose the nerf is doing as intended, stopping people from using it... completely.

I wasn't bothered by the old version in missions and knew I wasn't getting that but my god this version just sucks, it's just totally killed by the lack of ammo and nerfed pickups.   Now if I want it's full mastery I need to waste 5 forma on a weapon that in all honesty completely pointless to taking into missions

Why did you feel the need to do the nerf to the ammo when we have essentially a corpus version that has built in ammo mutation.  It really does feel like you've taken a bull into a china shop to try and 'fix' an issue that 1) wasn't an issue for most people and 2) if it was an issue, shouldn't have been there on release (poor testing) or left as long as it was.

Edited by LSG501
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2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I just got the bramma after finally decided to do some liches again and in all honesty, it feels unusable.... I literally did a mission, I hit 5 enemies directly, so no spamming, and then I'd ran out of arrows because none of the enemies dropped the ammo I needed, if you're going to nerf ammo like you have, at least give it a common ammo pickup rather than sniper ammo which is the rarest type to drop.  I shouldn't be 'forced' into running carrier or ammo mutation just to make a weapon even remotely usable... to put it bluntly, I'll just take another weapon instead...I suppose the nerf is doing as intended, stopping people from using it... completely.

I wasn't bothered by the old version in missions and knew I wasn't getting that but my god this version just sucks, it's just totally killed by the lack of ammo and nerfed pickups.   Now if I want it's full mastery I need to waste 5 forma on a weapon that in all honesty completely pointless to taking into missions

Why did you feel the need to do the nerf to the ammo when we have essentially a corpus version that has built in ammo mutation.  It really does feel like you've taken a bull into a china shop to try and 'fix' an issue that 1) wasn't an issue for most people and 2) if it was an issue, shouldn't have been there on release (poor testing) or left as long as it was.

That is a great idea, similar to how the Lenz has an innate ammo mutation right? I think that would be a solid addition.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Urlan said:

That is a great idea, similar to how the Lenz has an innate ammo mutation right? I think that would be a solid addition.

To be fair I was just thinking something like normal primary ammo rather than sniper but built in ammo conversion would be better overall. 

It feels 'better' when I'm using carrier because it will convert ammo but 5 (6 with carrier) ammo with sniper ammo is just daft.  But I shouldn't need to run carrier or ammo mutation, it should be optional and a 'bonus' if I use it.

It really does feel like DE haven't play tested this version of the bramma without devhacks so they can get ammo as needed. 

Edited by LSG501

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5 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

To be fair I was just thinking something like normal primary ammo rather than sniper but built in ammo conversion would be better overall. 

It feels 'better' when I'm using carrier because it will convert ammo but 5 (6 with carrier) ammo with sniper ammo is just daft.  But I shouldn't need to run carrier or ammo mutation, it should be optional and a 'bonus' if I use it.

It really does feel like DE haven't play tested this version of the bramma without devhacks so they can get ammo as needed. 

That was a concern of mine as well honestly; when the changes were first announced. Hopefully, a real middle ground that allows the weapon some dignity for such an acquisition method and shows off that this is intended to be a powerful reward to hunt for; instead of mastery in the shape of a bow with a forma tax. Either way, I like the train of thought there LSG501.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Urlan said:

That was a concern of mine as well honestly; when the changes were first announced. Hopefully, a real middle ground that allows the weapon some dignity for such an acquisition method and shows off that this is intended to be a powerful reward to hunt for; instead of mastery in the shape of a bow with a forma tax. Either way, I like the train of thought there LSG501.

Yeah it wouldn't be such an issue if it was something we just grabbed a bp for and didn't require 5 forma (which is annoying in it's own right) for max mr but this requires grinding out a lich which at best is a few hours, multiple forma and the time needed to level it.  Not to mention if you end up like I have of late, where I only seem to be getting '28%' range bonuses (and no ephemera....), multiple liches to max it out if you find a kuva weapon you like.

Edited by LSG501
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6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Yeah it wouldn't be such an issue if it was something we just grabbed a bp for and didn't require 5 forma (which is annoying in it's own right) for max mr but this requires grinding out a lich which at best is a few hours, multiple forma and the time needed to level it.  Not to mention if you end up like I have of late, where I only seem to be getting '28%' range bonuses (and no ephemera....), multiple liches to max it out if you find a kuva weapon you like.

Feel you pain on the values and liches not giving bling.

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The best solution is to keep doing/making fun weapons to use while increasing the hardness level of enemies. They didn't even have to come up with the new patch to address it when they could've done this before like having a planet or two that are just hard to play in. Like you don't go into those planets/systems without having good weapons with a good party or you'll get your ass kicked. Of course, the rewards of finishing a mission in those uber hard planets will be really hard to get items. 

Stop coming up with band aid solutions.

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On 2020-06-09 at 6:27 AM, Loza03 said:

If I had to guess?

Because there's only one meaningful gameplay situation in Warframe right now. Crowd clearing. There's no room for sidegrades, utility weapons, loadouts, because everything save the boss fights only comes down to 'here's a lot of enemies, get rid of them as fast as possible'.  There are very few enemies that matter, those few that do are spammed inconsiderately for some barest hint at variety, which just leads to annoying spam in the form of randomly-appearing deflector shields that turn off powers. Ancient Healers don't matter, Bursas don't matter, Bombards don't matter - we spam Area of Effect weapons or powers into the crowd of mooks they're in and they die just as fast.

In other words, there's no niches for DE to make a weapon to fit into. Precision weapons are fundamentally less powerful than explosives, because a fast time to kill on a single target genuinely does not matter, because you almost never have a reason to burst down a single target. If you do, then that's the only thing you need to do anyway, so now crowd clearers aren't useful (I distinctly remember that during Hostile Mergers). Warframes and players have so few vulnerabilites and are so self-sufficient that support weapons, either of the direct boosting or weakness-covering varieties are irrelevant. Even mobility, one of the biggest selling points of Warframe and one of its most praised elements, isn't meta. Positioning and dodging is irrelevant in the face of nuking.

Without a niche for a weapon to fill, there's nowhere for DE to go to make people excited for a new weapon, because it won't be interesting. With one track, one challenge, one objective to do, then it is either better or it is useless

This is why people warn against power creep. This is why people want more balance and challenge. This is why just following the idea of 'it's a power fantasy, players should never be threatened' leads to the game getting boring. Because DE can't make their own game anymore.

 

Very good points.  Warframe could take a page from Destiny 2, where weapon classes can generally compete with each other and have advantages in different situations. 

Also, it would be great to have Warframe weapons be able to upgrade mastery ranks, so that no weapon is simply mastery fodder and can be invested into (maybe via extra forma or catalysts) to become top tier - except prime versions of weapons would be something to deal with in that case.

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Wow... I'm having issues on the Nintendo Switch, where damage is outright not working. I'm shooting at group of enemy's feet seeing them walk away from what should be doing over 100k damage for me. Ammo was already scarce before they decided to destroy the weapon, and this just makes it worse. Nevermind MY time I decided to put into their game, and materials I had to farm for ages for just to make it as good because of DE's stupidity of letting this get rampant to begin with, by not actually setting a MR requirement to use the Kuva weapons, and allowing Kuvas to spawn so damn early in the game to begin with... They act like this weapon wasn't good for primary weapon play, but yet, neither is pissing off your community who put so much time and effort to get the weapon to begin with...

 

The weapon is boarder line unusable, and I have no say in the matter of getting my materials and time back for an action I did not choose, or vote on to happen... Player usage, and visibility are not a proper reason to "balance" a weapon... It's called don't have every alpha and lighting effect possible happen, and think why so many players are using it... Maybe possibly just allow other people to opt out of Bramma effects when they're not using one. Also, nevermind all the other broken S#&$ in this game that they're not "balancing"... Like Ember's Inferno ability which is arguably more broken, and has the same effect and worse than the Kuva Bramma. Yet it goes untouched, or the other countless examples others can point out in this forum... Not to mention, it wasn't great for a few situations, like most bosses, as the damage wasn't working right then either.

 

In short: maybe don't let MR 7's be allowed to use the weapon, and maybe don't let every possible effect play all at once causing visibility and performance issues...

Edited by (NSW)Master2873
Added a sentence I forgot to add.
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On 2020-07-06 at 2:31 PM, (PS4)Cosign_ said:

If the game is too saturated with Bramma users, then increase the mastery rank requirement to use one and keep the weapon the same.

Issue is, it needs to have a requirement to begin with... Since it doesn't have a BP, and comes fully built when you get it, there is ZERO requirement. I've seen MR 6's using the #*!%ing thing, and they are surprised there is a huge spike in usage compared to the other primaries? Nevermind other broken S#&$ in the game to begin with, but they need to address a non-issue incorrectly, for the wrong reasons.

Maybe DE could still fix some of those bugs that have been present for ages first... Like bounties not starting when I select them, enemies not spawning, connection issues, collision issues, RJ bugs that are still very present like being able not to interact with ANYTHING!!! Or find a better way to get people to play RJ to begin with, but they're to worried about the state of primary weapon usage, and visibility issues THEY CREATED by allowing every alpha and lighting effect to play all at once, and having literally ZERO requirement to use it, and allow it to be traded via crimson branch with damn near no requirement as well.

 

When you start thinking about this, it really shows how DE has no clue what they're doing, and have created these issues themselves and do not care for us as a players time we decided to invest into their game... They literally show that it is worth ZERO them...

Edited by (NSW)Master2873
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14 hours ago, TnaneverRisen said:

Very good points.  Warframe could take a page from Destiny 2, where weapon classes can generally compete with each other and have advantages in different situations. 

Also, it would be great to have Warframe weapons be able to upgrade mastery ranks, so that no weapon is simply mastery fodder and can be invested into (maybe via extra forma or catalysts) to become top tier - except prime versions of weapons would be something to deal with in that case.

That is why they are called Mastery fodder- once Rank 30, players sell it on or use it to make a new weapon and repeat. But they never again contribute even after 100 Formas otherwise we'd all stick to our fave loadouts and never use anything else as we wait for MR400 as that would be it at that point. As it is, you get the item and try it out. Like it? Keep and forma. Don't like it? Rank to 30 and sell or use to make new- that's kinda how WF has always worked.

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11 hours ago, (PS4)Claudija said:

That is why they are called Mastery fodder- once Rank 30, players sell it on or use it to make a new weapon and repeat. But they never again contribute even after 100 Formas otherwise we'd all stick to our fave loadouts and never use anything else as we wait for MR400 as that would be it at that point. As it is, you get the item and try it out. Like it? Keep and forma. Don't like it? Rank to 30 and sell or use to make new- that's kinda how WF has always worked.

Yet they're worried about the state of gunplay when there are guns that are just straight trash... They're too worried about "balancing" a weapon, when they should be taking all current weapons and reworking them to become just as viable as ANY WEAPON! They need to rework the whole game in order to properly balance anything. It's going to come to the point where they'll nerf every #*!%ing useable weapon into the ground just because a bunch of people are using them...

 

Nevermindmass adoption rate might be a sign that a majority of weapons are trash, and treated as fodder, when every gun should be just as viable, and the game will even prevent this in the long run. A gun focusing on a single target is still not viable due to the masses of enemies to begin with.

 

DE logic: Ruin a good weapon, and #*!%ing over people who put S#&$loads of time into getting them, and the mods, and the forma tax, and creds, and the 10's of thousands of Endo, to make it good, and usable for endgame for idiotic reasons. Also, not thinking why the adoption rate is high, and continue to say they want players to feel empowered, but go against that. Meanwhile, there are other weapons, and abilities that are equally as, if not worse than the Kuva Bramma... Oh, and continue making endgame content targeted at veteran players, after they said they wouldn't anymore to target newer players to make it financially viable... But, continue to piss off veteran players with idiotic decisions like this...

 

In short, they're full of S#&$, and cannot be trusted to make the game better... Look at the rate of people playing RJ after the update for it, but are more worried about a singular weapon for their lack of restraint, and restrictions...

Edited by (NSW)Master2873
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6 hours ago, (NSW)Master2873 said:

Yet they're worried about the state of gunplay when there are guns that are just straight trash... They're too worried about "balancing" a weapon, when they should be taking all current weapons and reworking them to become just as viable as ANY WEAPON! They need to rework the whole game in order to properly balance anything. It's going to come to the point where they'll nerf every #*!%ing useable weapon into the ground just because a bunch of people are using them...

 

Nevermindmass adoption rate might be a sign that a majority of weapons are trash, and treated as fodder, when every gun should be just as viable, and the game will even prevent this in the long run. A gun focusing on a single target is still not viable due to the masses of enemies to begin with.

 

DE logic: Ruin a good weapon, and #*!%ing over people who put S#&$loads of time into getting them, and the mods, and the forma tax, and creds, and the 10's of thousands of Endo, to make it good, and usable for endgame for idiotic reasons. Also, not thinking why the adoption rate is high, and continue to say they want players to feel empowered, but go against that. Meanwhile, there are other weapons, and abilities that are equally as, if not worse than the Kuva Bramma... Oh, and continue making endgame content targeted at veteran players, after they said they wouldn't anymore to target newer players to make it financially viable... But, continue to piss off veteran players with idiotic decisions like this...

 

In short, they're full of S#&$, and cannot be trusted to make the game better... Look at the rate of people playing RJ after the update for it, but are more worried about a singular weapon for their lack of restraint, and restrictions...

I love my Bramma, I agree with you. The Fun Police do follow a trend. Catchmoon comes around, rather than look at their own mechanics they dislike every player mysteriously making Catchmoons as: surprise to nobody it was the best at dealing with the bullet sponges like Wolf. Sooo unsurprisingly it becomes meta then DE go: ah, no can't have that.

Arca Plasmor, Rhino- seen as super effective in Eidolon hunts and Railjack misdions: DE solution? Kill it with fire. They also wreck Limbo for same reasons as he made Scarlet Spear cake when they tried screwing us over by removing the healing system.

Bramma is the latest victim: they make a bow that on paper would take a dedicated vet to earn... yeah but see some like helping sooo these vets help newbies get Brammas by selling Liches. Newbie gets a nuclear warhead on bowstring- as if they'd want anything else. Conveniently Bramma is nerfed as they release Primary Kitguns yet she still can outperform them. MR as someone suggested, is laughable as you can easily fly MR to max if you no life the game and even casuals can reach upper teens Mastery within a couple months: it won't really make a difference to Bramma ownership.

Buffing underperformers is an idea lots of us suggested but DE would rather nerf the meta instead of compromise. As said before on our forums- Kuva Liches were hyped up to be this bad ass enemy pursuing us and ruining our day with exclusive rewards if we beat it. We have the opposite. Most Kuva weapons are underperforming as it is making the system rather tedious and boring and now the one diamond has been nerfed because they screwed up. Players complained of effects... yeeeah so lets not tone the damn effects down or give the players what they wanted a toggle: we'll just kill the bow instead. Except she's still feasible as a weapon but the ammo nerf is the hardest part.

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В 05.07.2020 в 08:50, (XB1)TIME P0LICE сказал:

The Bramma was OP, but not as much as other weapons. I don’t think it should’ve even been touched. DE took all the fun away from using that weapon after killing a lich. That ammo Nerf was unnecessary

Why not remove the lich? Total. Completely.
And all the associated weapons. Well, really, why do you need a strong weapon in the game? After all, the meaning of balance is to equalize all weapons. Make sure all weapons are equally bad.
That there was no good.

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This was the best thing DE has ever done. I can finally hear the enemies now and not just explosions from 3 other Bramma users. I love yall DE. 😘

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On 2020-06-13 at 12:38 AM, Bandileros said:

I liked it all - the ballistic trajectory of the arrow, BOOM_BOOM sounds, and the fact that the feeling of shooting from it was as fun as burning enemies from Ignis.
The designer who created it needs to be given an Oscar for the best visual effects.

So did I. And still do. Bramma hasn't really changed, you can still drop your bomblet load on enemies from afar. The sound and the thrill is the same, and so is the lethality (almost). 

- - -

What you cannot do now is speed-run through a map continuously spamming bomblets from your 4000 plat riven-enhanced Bramma all over the place. And removing that spamming was a GOOD thing. That spamming was like turning the difficulty setting down to "5 years or lower" on a kid's game, and Warframe isn't even a kid's game to begin with. Anyone who thinks that will get them "respect" or "cred" from fellow players needs to get their heads examined...

And btw, if you really want to test your weapons & builds, try the Steel Path. Much better than shooting at patsies in the Simulacrum or using op weapons in pug missions on the normal Starchart trying to impress noobs.

Edited by Graavarg

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9 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Bramma hasn't really changed, you can still drop your bomblet load on enemies from afar. The sound and the thrill is the same, and so is the lethality (almost). 

- - -

What you cannot do now is speed-run through a map continuously spamming bomblets from your 4000 plat riven-enhanced Bramma all over the place. And removing that spamming was a GOOD thing. That spamming was like turning the difficulty setting down to "5 years or lower" on a kid's game, and Warframe isn't even a kid's game to begin with. Anyone who thinks that will get them "respect" or "cred" from fellow players needs to get their heads examined...

I agree with this 110%. The Bramma was forcefully pulled back into the real world, where you have to aim your shots and you get punished in one way or another if you don't.

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15 hours ago, (XB1)HollowCube987 said:

I agree with this 110%. The Bramma was forcefully pulled back into the real world, where you have to aim your shots and you get punished in one way or another if you don't.

No, DE simply threw the consequences of their lack of foresight on players, without solving the actual issues of the weapon and making an overall mess of things:

- self damage to self stun: unnecessary since shield gating and most recent launchers got some form of another of "safe" trigger (distance, manual detonation, delayed detonation);

  and even then selfdamage issues were due to being mainly caused by bullS#&$ outside of player's agency: other players getting in the way, pets, closing doors, enemy spawns...

- Kuva Bramma rate of fire / charging time: this was the actual issue and DE didn nothing about it, while massacring a weapon most people spent a lot of time farming and mastering;

  current ammo economy is utterly insane. with ech ammo drop giving 1 arrow or less with conversion mods installed; unless you play Protea...

  visual annoyance was barely reduced and not player's fault: if DE let's people choose and implement blinding effects on their weapons and in other players sessions it's their fault;

  Bramma still has the 2nd highest fire rate of all bows after rakta cernos... this is insane - all other changes were meaningless, and only ruined the weapon needlesly;

  low level players can still get an early access to the weapon, converting everything else they can get to MR fodder - this is the main reason for the past popularity spike;

  overall all kuva weapons are a disappointment due to requiring 5 forma to master end being barely better than their base version in most cases

  DE analisis of the problem was shallow and inconclusive - using the same metrics shouldn't DE Pablo eliminate Saryn from the game due to her dominance in most missions?

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3 hours ago, Ikusias said:

DE analisis of the problem was shallow and inconclusive - using the same metrics shouldn't DE Pablo eliminate Saryn from the game due to her dominance in most missions?

Not counting other kitguns, or the fact that Ember's Inferno ability has the same visual issues, and is equally as broken as it's a AOE ability that can have CRAZY ranges and does the same things as Kuva Bramma wiping out waves of enemies, not be able to "interact/play the game" as many others tried saying on here WITHOUT AIMING AND UNLIMTED ENERGY IF MODDED RIGHT!!!

 

TOO MANY people are looking at the weapon directly, and not thinking of similar issues, or why it was adopted to begin with... For #*!%s sakes, they MR lock frames, but not Kuva weapons... Does anyone see how #*!%ing stupid this is?!?!?! You can trade the #*!%ing Kuvas too without any consequence.

Frames are more broken than the weapons themselves, they should be addressing ALL WEAPONS since Frames too are causing issues with gunplay, but as you can see they went the wrong and direct route...

Peopleare not seeing this whole stupidity over this "balance", or their logic over it, when everything else goes against their "balance methodology"...

The proper way to balance the Bramma would be to leave the ammo alone, reduce the visuals or clusters (like they did) but increase the damage to reduced clusters to leave the damage to similar amounts, and increase bow draw time, by 20-50% while actually putting a MR limit on the weapons. INSTEAD, they devalued everyone's weapon, and time to zero...

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