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We need ACTUAL Lich missions.


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I am currently making zero actual, real, tangible progress on my Lich hunt.  Why?  Apart from the fact that I'm in the forums and not playing:  I know all my mods, and not the order, that's why.  I'm just trying to guess the random order, so I'm running mission after mission, completely solo, clearing every thrall, and just...  Nothing.  I'm tired of running basic star chart missions with the only reward being a tiny increase in my Lich's irritation bar.  I feel like MY irritation bar is filling faster than his is. 

There is no guaranteed gameplay mechanic other than the RNG-slot-machine-of-tedium to figure out mod order.  No mission for it, nothing actually interesting and engaging.  Just, stab, roll slot machine, do it again.  That's not interesting.  It's not fun.  It's the definition of tedious. 

There is also no guaranteed way to spawn a Lich once you know the order of your mods.  No big hideout.  No flagship, like we were shown (not a letdown at all, DE).  Not even a guaranteed spawn node, like a boss fight.  Just the same starchart missions we already had, that we've already run 4,000,000 times each, that we JUST ran for murmurs.  Those.  Again.  Until the game decides to spawn the Lich so you can roll the slot machine to check your order.  There's not even a set number of missions in between spawns.  Could be the next one.  Could be an hour's worth of constant grinding before it spawns again.  No ACTUAL, hard, real, quantifiable progress.  "Spawns in 3 missions.  Spawns in 2 missions.  Spawns in next mission.  Lich spawns."  Nope.  "Slightly more likely to spawn.  Slightly more likely to spawn.  Still not guaranteed, but slightly more likely to spawn."  That's all the rage meter is.  A carrot on a stick tied lashed to our forehead.

There needs to be missions to discern mod order and there needs to be a way to guaranteed go after your lich, and not yet another pointless mission where nothing happens and no progress is made.  Sure, the grind is "needs" to be there.  But it's already a long grind for murmurs and leveling the weapon is already a longer grind than putting 5 forma on a non-kuva weapon.  Just getting the 5 forma takes nearly a week unless you buy them.  Just getting the Lich you want in the first place can take literally hours of time.  I spent over 3 hours just trying to get a second Nukor to spawn.  The fact that I was getting a second Nukor to transfer into the first is another layer of grind that currently exists.  We don't need all that BS AND have the layered RNG of mod order and Lich spawn on top of it. 

The system is already pure pallet swapped grind.  It's literally just the same starchart missions we've already had for years, now with an extra fieldboss and new eximus types (thralls).  There's virtually no new gameplay to the entire Lich system, just grind grind grind.  You can remove a little of the RNG from finishing a Lich after you've already farmed out all the murmurs and make it less annoying to work through for the MR, at the very LEAST.

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That's actually a fair point.

I'm pretty sure that this will be addressed when DE does what they actually promised and escalates the Liches into Railjack.

As far as I'm aware their own plan was to have Liches increase in 'influence' until they didn't just have Thralls in different sectors, but their own capital ship, which we then attack with the Railjack and confront the Lich as a specific, dedicated mission. Including the idea that the people infiltrating the capital ship can identify a ship core that we can destroy with the RJ main cannon, thus having something to do even if the Lich isn't defeated.

That would be why the Lich's meter rises so slowly, because they want to ensure engagement in that side of things when it happens; once you get them to level 5, they then have a ship, and that's where you can find them, but if you don't have a RJ yet, there's an option to grind the Thralls and get the Lich to appear in a regular mission again and defeat them there.

Which would be fine. If this function existed yet.

But no~oooo... DE had to rush the release of the Old Blood and RJ in turn to get their updates out faster, without enabling the actual full suite of their functions...

Anybody remember Command intrinsics?

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Although Liches is by far my most default game mode at this point, offering me a decent challenge, (as well as fighting my Lich is a joy), and i have no huge concerns over it, infact, i really like it, i would still prefer to have those changes you propose ^^

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On 2020-06-08 at 8:04 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

I'm just trying to guess the random order, so I'm running mission after mission, completely solo, clearing every thrall, and just...  Nothing

They could stand to have the Lich naturally be more aggressive once all 3 mods are revealed, because if you know all three it's 4 attempts max.  Which if you only need 4 stab attempts, that's not bad at all as long as the Lich is coming after you.  And this would be the route newer players should go, that first Lich attempt won't be hard to initiate since by now they are at max rage and likely spawning nearly every mission.  Attempts 2-4, different story.  Maybe increase rage meter gain per thrall killed to speed it up once all 3 mods are revealed or prevent regression of the rage meter between stabs if all 3 are known.  Vets don't usually run into this issue as they are more likely to stab every attempt to speed the process up, becomes a race of revealing mods first or guessing all mods first (I'm a horrible guesser too, sigh).  

On 2020-06-08 at 8:04 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

There is also no guaranteed way to spawn a Lich once you know the order of your mods.  No big hideout.  No flagship, like we were shown (not a letdown at all, DE).  Not even a guaranteed spawn node, like a boss fight

I would like a RJ mission/flagship spawn once all 3 open, that would be fun.  The "lack of" was an issue of DE over-reaching, which...I'm not gonna blame them for dreaming big, trying something new isn't always going to come out perfect though.  

On 2020-06-08 at 8:04 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

There needs to be missions to discern mod order

No, there really doesn't need to be.  4 attempts at most for newer players if they're smart.  Vet's just try brute forcing before knowing all 3.

On 2020-06-08 at 8:04 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Just getting the 5 forma takes nearly a week unless you buy them

....people aren't continuous building them and keeping a stockpile?  (looks at all his built forma sitting there collecting dust).

On 2020-06-08 at 8:04 PM, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

Just getting the Lich you want in the first place can take literally hours of time.  I spent over 3 hours just trying to get a second Nukor to spawn.  The fact that I was getting a second Nukor to transfer into the first is another layer of grind that currently exists.  We don't need all that BS AND have the layered RNG of mod order and Lich spawn on top of it. 

Be glad you can see what weapon the Larvling has.  That said, weighted system geared towards Kuva weapon you don't own/mastered/in foundry would be nice.  The more times you don't see it the more likely it is to show up.  And combine that with weighted system towards a Kuva weapon you have equipped once you have obtained all the weapons.  

Otherwise I enjoy them as is, some changes for QoL would be welcome.  New mission variants and a base/flagship.

Edited by (XB1)Calliber
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On 2020-06-09 at 4:28 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm pretty sure that this will be addressed when DE does what they actually promised and escalates the Liches into Railjack.

I was really disappointed about this when I watched the TennoCon video showing the Railjack integration and actual Lich galleon boarding. There was a TON of stuff that was interesting (like having to disable the ship shields and things to weaken the Lich) as opposed to just the Murmur farming as pointed out. I'd be happy if there was some system (like based on their naming structure) to determine which Requiem mods were needed, since it literally does get super repetitive (especially that 3rd mod) mowing through ever increasing enemy levels.

 

The Squad Link thing would have also been nice to implement, but I also remember some of the painful issues with Scarlet Spear sitting around on the Murex ships twiddling thumbs due to the serious lack of ground missions taking place.

 

Usually, my Liches have spawned during Exterminate missions overall pretty regularly though. More than a few Murmurs were obtained just by them showing up mid-mission.

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On 2020-06-10 at 7:51 PM, (XB1)Calliber said:

I'm not gonna blame them for dreaming big

I am.  Don't shoehorn in a system that literally just piggybacks the most basic version of the game (starchart.) with virtually no new gameplay mechanics, thin it out with insane amounts of layered grind and RNG and then throw up a surprised pikachu when people don't like it.  

 

On 2020-06-10 at 7:51 PM, (XB1)Calliber said:

No, there really doesn't need to be.  4 attempts at most for newer players if they're smart.  Vet's just try brute forcing before knowing all 3.

First off, miss me with the "vets do it this way" because I have 2k hours in the game.  I didn't come here for you to talk down to me like bad Lich RNG is my fault.  I got completely and totally screwed by Lich RNG on the run that sparked this thread and had almost no Lich spawns.  I cleared several planets without ever seeing my Lich.  And those "4 attempts if you're not an idiot" doesn't mean 4 missions.  The reason there does need to be a way to discern mod order is because getting your Lich to spawn 4 times might take literally hours of missions.  I know, because it's happened to me.  If there was a way to learn mod order you could stab your Lich the first time it decides to pop up after you finish murmurs, which still might take half a dozen missions.  Guaranteed missions to learn mod order and a half dozen to get it to spawn once and finish it off still sounds like a lot of work on top of a lot of work just so you can get a weapon that then requires even more work, but it's still a lot better than "just 4 attempts" that might take all damn day when it decides not to spawn.  I've brute forced it and guessed my entire mod order and some of the mods on the second spawn I've had on one Lich.  I've also had a Lich take days to kill because it refused to spawn and I guessed wrong (which is not the player's fault) until the last possible combo.  You're saying that's fine.  I'm saying it's absolutely not.

 

On 2020-06-10 at 7:51 PM, (XB1)Calliber said:

people aren't continuous building them and keeping a stockpile?

I build one every day and I farmed up a bunch during the last PS.  It's almost like I'm using them to forma more than one loadout, and trying different builds and non-meta weapons, and putting forma on things for NW challenges and oh, the dozens upon dozens of goddamn forma required to unlock all the MR tied up in Kuva weapons.  It's almost like that.  I'm sure it's not like that and I'm somehow just an idiot that airlocks all his forma, at least that's the tone I'm getting from you.  But it's at least almost like that.

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On 2020-06-10 at 7:51 PM, (XB1)Calliber said:

1 - No, there really doesn't need to be.  4 attempts at most for newer players if they're smart.  Vet's just try brute forcing before knowing all 3.

2 - ....people aren't continuous building them and keeping a stockpile?  (looks at all his built forma sitting there collecting dust).

 

 

1 - The best way to farm Murmurs is to do your own controlled nodes, get your Lich to spawn and (not deliberately) get a bad stab. Getting a bad stab gives you a crap-ton of Murmurs and reduces the tedious dullness of the grind, albeit somewhat. Nearly every single Lich I've had has ended up Rank-5 while I've been farming Murmurs AND trying new mod combos.

Maybe 4 attempts AFTER you have all the Murmurs, but what does it matter if the Lich is already Rank-5?

2 - Not everyone loves to run relics all day every day outside of a Baro appearance, as that also gets boring, fast. I had 50-something Forma blueprints and guess what, they're all gone, on stuff I actually want to level (or needed space for Rivens) and Kuva MR fodder.

 

Also this has nothing to do with not wanting new stuff and this has everything to do with DE putting out a completely BS trailer, which was borderline false advertising. I will back up the OP 100% on that point.

Nearly every piece of content DE has released in the last couple of years requires hours and hours of grind and farming; they specifically said they would start to lessen the grind and respect our time more... yeah, what happened to that exactly? 

If it were ONLY Lichs that took a few hours, it would be fine but with everything else this game has? We do not need any more hours of needless grind for very little pay-off.

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The things that annoy me most is that you have to go out of your way to actually farm those thralls for murmurs and have him appear.
You can't go open relics or farm for any resource and get those murmurs naturally. Worse yet, there are no endless lich missions.
Despite having to go to select specific missions on a node, they can still steal your S#&$ in any kind of mission and there's nothing you can do about it.
Except for you know, kill him.

The stuff he steals isn't correctly recorded either, it gets pretty screwed the moment you have a booster active or he steals certain stuff.
I myself still didn't get those 4 ayatan ortas back, not that I really care much though, but it shows how flawed the system currently is.

Going back to the fact that you have to go out of your way to deal with him.
The liches say it themselves... THEY ARE THE HUNTER! They definitely don't feel like it.
Granted the easiest way to get the lich to spawn at least about every other mission, is to get him to rank 5.
Once he has reached that rank his enrage meter won't reset.

There comes another thing why they don't feel like a hunter, their AI, the way they respond to you.
Currently everybody can just ignore the lich and they'll just stay in the tile they spawned in.
They don't chase their adversary around, they don't feel like a threat at all.
Other than that they throw their abilities around at random, especially their mobility one.
I'd much prefer that they use their mobility to stay out of your aim or try to chase you.
Rather than randomly hopping about.

If they're supposed to be an enemy that is more on par with the tenno, DE failed with this one.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Abysspurnyan:

The things that annoy me most is that you have to go out of your way to actually farm those thralls for murmurs and have him appear.
You can't go open relics or farm for any resource and get those murmurs naturally. Worse yet, there are no endless lich missions.
Despite having to go to select specific missions on a node, they can still steal your S#&$ in any kind of mission and there's nothing you can do about it.
Except for you know, kill him.

The stuff he steals isn't correctly recorded either, it gets pretty screwed the moment you have a booster active or he steals certain stuff.
I myself still didn't get those 4 ayatan ortas back, not that I really care much though, but it shows how flawed the system currently is.

Going back to the fact that you have to go out of your way to deal with him.
The liches say it themselves... THEY ARE THE HUNTER! They definitely don't feel like it.
Granted the easiest way to get the lich to spawn at least about every other mission, is to get him to rank 5.
Once he has reached that rank his enrage meter won't reset.

There comes another thing why they don't feel like a hunter, their AI, the way they respond to you.
Currently everybody can just ignore the lich and they'll just stay in the tile they spawned in.
They don't chase their adversary around, they don't feel like a threat at all.
Other than that they throw their abilities around at random, especially their mobility one.
I'd much prefer that they use their mobility to stay out of your aim or try to chase you.
Rather than randomly hopping about.

If they're supposed to be an enemy that is more on par with the tenno, DE failed with this one.

Can only agree on this here.

My main gripe is also that none of the missions feel connected, jsut Lich name slapped on with Lich able to spawn and the thralls.

I said it and say it again in this and simliar threads. Let give the objectives give murmurs/reactents and stop going this mass killing thing only.

The game has so many modes but the most efficent are as always endless ones, DE need to seriously need to reward them equal to other missions to make them worth while simply.

I like endless but prefer short ones but they are not worth the reward often simply. For Lichs and Relics it just not makes sense why even have different modes if all comes down to killing for Murmurs and Reactents. The objective is non existent in this and just slapped on again. Make the objectives important to the mission type and connect them more at least, spy should give info on Lichs or new location, capture lets us interrogate them for such info to and so on.

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