The Deadlock Protocol: Jackal Revamp Feedback Megathread

[SilverBones]

The Jackal received a facelift!

The whole boss fight has been reworked to include new mechanics, different stages and some new attacks. Prepare yourselves for an invigorated fight, Tenno!

If you have feedback to leave on the subject of the new Jackal Boss Fight, then please do so in this thread. Please remember that you should keep your feedback constructive and civil. If you like an aspect of the boss, tell us what you like. If you do not like an aspect, then tell us why, and what you would change to make it better!

Please bear in mind this is not a place to leave bugs you discover while playing. If you do need to report a bug, please use The Deadlock Protocol: Bug Report Megathread

Thank you!
 

[ixidron92]

It's amazing. Finally, after so many years of terrible, oversimplified bosses, DE has created a boss worth fighting against. Now, we only need bosses that can take a few hits and pose a challenge when it comes to damage. 

[Lady_Khaos]

Honestly, it doesn't feel any better. Health gating is one thing, but putting the actual progress behind forced cutscenes is not satisfying. The fight has become less about fighting and more about just dodging and waiting for the button prompt. Also where was the "auto repair" that kept getting mentioned?

The Parazon use was completely unnecessary and adds nothing of value to the fight.

How to improve? Get rid of the parazon cutscenes completely and just let us damage the Jackal in it's downed state as before (still with the new attack sequence of course). Maybe have a weakspot that reveals like Sargus Ruk while downed. If you insist of keeping the finishers, then put them after a vulnerability phase so that we at least feel like we're doing something. The "auto repair" can trigger as an alternative to one of his attacks (it may already do this, but again I didn't even see it in the time it took to finish the fight).

[DebrisFlow]

In 2 runs out of 4 we had to abort because jakkal got stuck after attempting a the parazon animation

[ixidron92]

hace 1 hora, Khaos_Zand3r dijo:

Honestly, it doesn't feel any better. Health gating is one thing, but putting the actual progress behind forced cutscenes is not satisfying. The fight has become less about fighting and more about just dodging and waiting for the button prompt. Also where was the "auto repair" that kept getting mentioned?

The Parazon use was completely unnecessary and adds nothing of value to the fight.

How to improve? Get rid of the parazon cutscenes completely and just let us damage the Jackal in it's downed state as before (still with the new attack sequence of course). Maybe have a weakspot that reveals like Sargus Ruk while downed. If you insist of keeping the finishers, then put them after a vulnerability phase so that we at least feel like we're doing something. The "auto repair" can trigger as an alternative to one of his attacks (it may already do this, but again I didn't even see it in the time it took to finish the fight).

The cutscenes make the whole fight feel like we're like the warframes shown in the trailers. They are cinematic and I love them. Besides, they last like 2 seconds, ffs. It's about damn time we've got a real boss with real phases like other RPGs do. Frankly, the wall of lasers thing is quite nice and not uncommon to see. I just wish the walls weren't perfect and some had, at random, a hole on top or bellow where you could jump off or slide under.

If anything, to make it more interesting and have the auto-repair apply, it'd be cool if once you down one of its HP bars, the jackal'd repair fully and do the spinning laser animation, but instead of being invulnerable, you could shoot at it to force it to stop, and then, you stab it with the parazon to go to the next phase.

So far, I'm loving that boss. Yeah, DE still needs to cut down on invulnerability and do like other RPG like Destiny and Borderlands, which have bosses that can take some real punishment instead of being outright invulnerable. That can be easily achieved if they cap the max damage bosses can take with each shot.

[BlackCat500]

I like it and it is reasonably easy for anyone to beat ,so it will not impact the newbie experience negatively. However, the parazon animations of other people seem to bug out here and there. Or so it feels.

 

EDIT: Make cutscenes skippable and don't make homing missiles (?)...or is it the electric fence?...I don't know. Make it not deal so much damage when it scales up to level 100+. I don't even know WHAT is killing me, it's really annoying.

[Aurora3500]

The boss as a whole feels greatly improved. It feels more like a boss battle compared to before.

It is good to utilize the parazon more and the cinematics give a similar good feeling that I got from the Exploiter orb fight.

Near the 3rd and 4th phases where the blue energy gates take effect, that does make the fight trickier. It took time to figure out how to dodge those while also dodging the red laser wall attack of the Jackal.

I feel the Jackal's movement speed could be improved a bit. Similar to what was portrayed in the teaser trailer earlier this week. It doesn't feel like it goes fast enough and you effectively can control where to bring it by moving to an area of the room of your preference and having him catch up with you. It feels like the fight could benefit from having him move a little more strongly around the room so you can't control where to bring him. Maybe also having him move in mid air while he does the spinning attack with the laser wall.

Since he is an early boss, I can see how it is also important that he's not too difficult. That's the main thing that came to mind. But otherwise, it is a lot better and I look forward to more situations where he needs to be fought due to these changes. Especially future sorties after this week's 7 days of Jackal Sorties are up and the upcoming Hard Mode.

[Reifnir]

7 minutes ago, Aurora3500 said:

Near the 3rd and 4th phases where the blue energy gates take effect, that does make the fight trickier.

Except, since Warframe is all about finding the right way to cheese any fight, this one is no exception. You can:

1) Jump to one of the small ledges and avoid the mechanic altogether

2) Wall-latch somewhere for a similar effect

3) Operator Void Mode ignores all that

4) Rhino, Revenant and Nezha couldn't care less about them

5) Titania, Zephyr, Ivara and, to a lesser extent, Wukong can trivialize the encounter just as easily.

 

So yeah, it's now flashy, has unskippable cutscenes and kills pets with deadly efficiency. Can probably serve as a part of that "New player experience" they mentioned long ago... But adds about nothing in the actual challenge department. 

[Althaline]

Ivara's wire counts as ground for knockdown purposes in this fight. Doesn't make much sense that I get knocked off the wire that's 30m in the air when Jackal falls down.

Also, those electrical hazards do way too much damage. Even fighting the Jackal at level 6-8, they're enough to outright kill me without shield gating (or with it, if he traps me in one of them with his absurd amount of knockback).

[Tyreaus]

It feels like a step in the right direction. While, as mentioned, it is easy to cheese, I didn't feel a particular need nor desire to do so. Most things feel decently telegraphed so that I'm not blindsighted by anything, everything moves at an acceptable pace (not so fast we can't avoid it, nor so slow it feels sluggish or non-threatening), and, without the parmesan, it's a good test of mobility.

That said, a few pet peeves.

One, as mentioned, it feels like a bit of a waiting game. While laying into it is fun, I didn't notice any particular progress when dealing damage. This could just be a UI thing, because "big boss health bar" only budges when dealing with the Parazon stuff. But if dealing damage to it is important, it probably should have a visual feedback. (Even just replacing the 3 health bars to show the leg health bars would probably do the trick, TBQH)

Two, homing missiles. The boss begs to be an exciting test of player mobility and positioning. Homing missiles are the trick question you can't get right. But if you're going to rap my knuckles when I get a question wrong and there's trick questions I'll always get wrong, why not just put on a metal gauntlet and stop trying with the test? Especially if I'm going to be taking the test over and over. The concern stops being about avoiding punishment and turns into enduring it. That's not as fun.

Three, the Parazon stuff - while I don't mind it - is a bit overdone. I literally start out by Parazon stabbing the thing in the head. The Parazon sequences after that just feel underwhelming by comparison, and the finale doesn't feel like a finale as a result. (Liches IMO have a similar issue)

Basically:

1. Show players progress more clearly. If shooting the legs is the key to victory, make those the health bar. Health bars to represent Parazon stabs aren't really health bars.

2. If you're going to test mobility and positioning, triple check there's always a way out. Also check that said way out isn't easily universalized: I was pinched between the spinning wall and the electric fence and had to jump up. Guess what works with the spinning wall in every scenario? Made things pretty trivial for the rest of the fight, and that's without traditional cheese tactics like Void mode.

3. Don't blow the cinematic load so early. Anticlimactic endings are a thing.

Don't get me wrong, I had fun, and this is the sort of thing I can see being the new "norm" with boss fights. Taking advantage of player mobility is great. But I can really see those other things becoming quite grating over multiple replays. Novelty is temporary, but annoyances last forever.

[ixidron92]

hace 6 horas, Aurora3500 dijo:

Near the 3rd and 4th phases where the blue energy gates take effect, that does make the fight trickier. It took time to figure out how to dodge those while also dodging the red laser wall attack of the Jackal.

Or you can swap to your operator and become invulnerable. 

[mrbubblepants]

I find it boring. It’s a nice simplistic fight, but more attack variety would be nice. It used to be guns and rockets and movement. Now it’s pretty spiny lights. At least add something different for each stage. Played it 5 times got the new drops and have no desire to run it again. 

Second phase should add guns, maybe some attack drones that pop out the back, maybe some fancy beam weapon we have to dodge. Show us what corpus money can do.

[ixidron92]

-Currently: The jackal has 5 health bar portions and 4 leg health bars. You have to destroy the 4 legs to trigger the spinning animation and once he's finished, you stab him with the parazon to take down one health bar portion.

-Suggestion: Make the health bars work like those from liches. Make him vulnerable during the spinning phase so you can damage a health bar portion. Once you empty that portion, it stops spinning and then you can stab it to unlock the next phase.

That way, the spinning phase isn't a waiting game you can spend invulnerable. That way you have to use your frame to attack the jackal while still dodging his attacks, the way it was intended.

[Lady_Khaos]

1 hour ago, ixidron92 said:

Or you can swap to your operator and become invulnerable. 

Jackal is the first boss of the game. Sure, late game players can just cheese with Operators, but the boss is intended for new accounts that don't have access to void mode. I can see newbies without a grasp on the movement system getting extremely frustrated by this fight, because as noted by others, the various wall attacks can easily kill non durable warframes

[vaisso]

Do not include the time you have to wait unnecessarily for missions you have to go many times. It's a waste of time.

[Zelmen]

Having played this mission a handful of times now I can say we really need a hard mode. There is so many things I would love to see in this fight. I would love to see the grid wall go from floor to ceiling and have openings to jump through. Currently it just spins and later in the fight changes directions. I would love to see some addition enemies for a little added madness. Only a few later in the fight not profit taker level. That takes away from enjoy the beauty of the map and boss fight. I just want expert modes for people who know the basics and want more of a challenge. Only giving it more armor / health does not increase difficulty. It creates a grind after losing the one shot kill aspect. (Which by the way great job with the 4 phase mechanic. This helps.) We want unpredictability. Maybe rather then the pillars blowing up and disappearing the parts should be on the ground to make movement harder and also add to the fact a battle is happening. This would be great for a hard mode. This, even in the current state, is not great for the first boss of the game

This seems rather advanced for the first boss fight of the game. While you can hide behind the pillars (even the broken one seem to block the wall a little. The wall is visually blocked but clips through and still does damage. Should be tweaked.) none of that is clear for new players. Maybe highlight the ground one where they can stand or lotus can say take cover more clearly. Having recently been playing with someone who started only a few weeks ago, they still haven't perfected the movement in this game. The wall moves too fast. The parazon is all new to them and the indicator to run up and interact is not big enough. Having dealt with liches I knew to run in go for the stabby. Maybe lotus needs to be more blunt and say "go in and stab it with your parazon before it recovers". Telling a new play to "use your parazon" doesn't explain much.

Lastly, remove the damn cut scene. If you are not going to let people skip it don't have it. Open the wall and move the jackal to the next room. Leave the wall open for two reasons. First people may want to go backwards and explore for the gold hand, or just want resources. Second it would prevent people getting blocked from exiting. It is 100% acceptable to not use a cut scene. Let players control their frame and jump into the next room. It not going to hurt anything if they are a little slower getting there. For the experience players it will be faster. maybe some of the pillar debris from the first room makes a ramp to jump to the second room. All of this has been done in warframe before.

[Gabuzomeu]

I'll never understand how bosses work in warframe.

[Muminidas]

On 2020-06-12 at 5:31 AM, Reifnir said:

Except, since Warframe is all about finding the right way to cheese any fight, this one is no exception. You can:

1) Jump to one of the small ledges and avoid the mechanic altogether

2) Wall-latch somewhere for a similar effect

3) Operator Void Mode ignores all that

4) Rhino, Revenant and Nezha couldn't care less about them

5) Titania, Zephyr, Ivara and, to a lesser extent, Wukong can trivialize the encounter just as easily.

 

So yeah, it's now flashy, has unskippable cutscenes and kills pets with deadly efficiency. Can probably serve as a part of that "New player experience" they mentioned long ago... But adds about nothing in the actual challenge department. 

I can't disagree with that except ... Jackal always has been and probably always will be the first major boss encounter for new players.

I pretty much enjoyed the rework: OST, cutscenes, new attacks and parazon stages. I guess it would be challanging for new players and very enjoyable.
Ofc, veterans can easily solo lvl 100-120 Sortie Jackal with decent time, actually if I pick my Riven packed, 5 forma Pyranna Prime he just goes down in seconds. Environmental changes and laser wall ofc kill weaker frames pretty quickly which is good reason to avoid it any way possible.

As 5 yrs WF player even though it's ez ps for me I enjoyed it greatly!

[akrid45]

Really good boss fight DE and a step in the right direction, it's not too challenging but also not so easy that you can watch Netflix while fighting it. 

Hope you rework the rest of the boss fights like this 

[Laxativus]

Two things that aren't neccessarily tied to this boss but this fight makes them particularly noticable:

1. pets should really be immune to AoE damage,
2. buffs/debuffs shouldn't be cleared by cutscenes.

Love the new fight, though.

[Wret]

I think the fight's a good improvement, though the blue electric fields in the second arena are nearly invisible with all the FX flying around. It might just be because the spinning lucent wall thing is blue when it's not active and it all melds together. Sometimes I just take the horrible Electric proc and look around confuse because I felt I was cleanly outside any damage zones but OH WELL. If a new player gets killed a few times by this I don't think they're going to exhaust their revives being killed a few times by this, but it is sort of a theme where the second anything in Warframe becomes dangerous it's hard to tell what happened or where it came from because readability. Perhaps it would be better if the later phases were made more dangerous by adding bombs falling out of the Jackal as it spins or something versus ramping up the large fields. I realize you can avoid them mostly by just staying closer but it's frustrating still.

 

Also, I'm fine with the Parazon scenes, they're short and mean, but I wish the camera and character transitioned into the hit rather than a sudden cut. I know that's difficult to link up animation wise but I'd trade some production values for feeling more like I'm actually making the stabby.

[blitzsharp]

This boss is on Venus. This boss drops Rhino. Now how is a MR2 going to deal with this fight, with his mk1 weapon and level 20 Volt. That is the moment new player will decide to quit.

[5m4llP0X]

Jakal needed a change up, he was way too easy beforehand, so I'm down with making him harder and I can even accept the parazon gimmick. But the magnetic field ring a ring 'o Roses is just obnoxious. This is easily the worst mechanics of your bosses.

[Joezone619]

4/10

cool boss fight, nice rework. explains parazon for new players.

reaaaally not appreciating it being shoved in my face as it is the sortie for the next 7 days or so. and the nightwave is complete sortie 3 times.

Honestly they are making the same mistake they did when they released the pacifist defect. shoving it in our face forcing us to do it OVER AND OVER AND OVER until everyone is burnt out of defection missions and now hates them.

[zuraja]

It's even easier than the old version, but more tedious and time consuming because of the unskippable room transition cutscene and the time you spend just running in a circle or using operator to completely ignore the spinning laser.  You spend so little time doing actual Warframe stuff that I'm honestly not sure I would even call this a boss fight.