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Colyeses

Huabi, the Calligrapher

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For the community-made Warframe, DE ultimately settled on the Broken Frame as the winning theme, but they did also release a list of themes that made it through to the final selection. Being a bit of a game design addict, I decided to set myself the challenge to make a few more kit concepts based off themes in this list. Starting this off is the theme of Calligraphy, as submitted by JareeZy.

For this reason, I decided to create Huabi, the Calligrapher.

 

Passive: Brush dipped in Blood

Enemies slain by Huabi, and corpses touched by him, grant him blood ink. Once sufficient blood ink has been acquired, his next Rendition has doubled range.

First ability: Renditions in Agony & Malice

Huabi gains access to three different brush-strokes, which replace his first, second and third abilities until one of them is cast.

River - Huabi sweeps horizontally in front of him, dealing damage to enemies and leaving behind a curved line.
Home - Huabi sweeps around him, dealing damage to enemies and leaving behind a circle.
Sun - Huabi thrusts his brush forward, sending out a projectile that deals damage to the first enemy it hits and leaves behind a radiant point.

Second ability: Expressions of the Will of the Author

Huabi gains access to three different words, which replace his first, second and third abilities until one of them is cast. If a word intersects with a Rendition, the Rendition is inscribed with it.

Pain - Huabi inscribes the word Pain and sends it out as a projectile, dealing damage to all enemies it touches.
Protection - Huabi inscribes the word Protection and sends it out as a projectile, granting overshields to himself and all allies it touches.
Potential - Huabi inscribes the word Potential and sends it out as a projectile, granting a damage boost to himself and all allies it touches.

Third ability: Serenity in the Heart of War

Huabi becomes invulnerable for five seconds. During this time, any damage that would normally be taken is converted into energy, and Huabi's cast speed is drastically reduced, while his ability stats are increased. Once the invulnerability expires, Huabi gains an attack and movespeed boost for ten seconds, during which Serenity cannot be recast.

Fourth ability: Artist of the Last Language

Huabi conjures the Jade Brush, an exalted polearm that gains an additional attribute based on the last Expression cast. Pain grants it slash procs, Protection makes it give Huabi overshields on every kill, and Potential makes its strikes launch blobs of ink that seek out and damage nearby enemies.

 

Renditions & Expressions: The finer details

Every Rendition and Expression is written in Orokin Script. The River is a line of Orokin Script, the Home is a circle, and the Sun is a word written in a flower symbol, similar to the Hayden Tenno sigil. The Home is a firmly lined ring that affects those within it, while the Sun is a point that radiates its power outwards, having a diminished effect the farther away the subject is from the Sun.

When an Expression intersects with a Rendition, it becomes inscribed. Only one of each Rendition can be inscribed at a time, so only one River, one Home, and one Sun. The effect is dependent on the combination.

River of Pain - Enemies that touch the line take heavy damage and are stunned.
Home of Pain - Enemies within the circle take damage over time.
Sun of Pain - Enemies within range take more damage from all sources.

River of Protection - Enemy projectiles are intercepted by the line.
Home of Protection - Allies within the circle gain damage reduction and status immunity.
Sun of Protection - Allies within range periodically gain shields.

River of Potential - Allies that cross the line gain increased movement and attack speed.
Home of Potential - Allies within the circle gain increased ability strength and multishot.
Sun of Potential - Allies within range gain increased weapon damage and regain energy when they cast an ability.

 

Design Notes

The name 'Huabi' is derived from the Chinese word for 'Brush'. The ability names were made wordy to invoke the idea of eloquence in poetry, while still centering around a single word that the abilities can be abbreviated to: Rendition, Expression, Serenity and Artist.

Brush dipped in Blood is intended to mechanically leverage more power, creating an ebb and flow in playstyle that makes the peaks stand out a bit more. A blood-inked Sun would be a massive radius, for example, and a blood-inked circle could cover an area that would be much more comfortable to maneuver around. It is simplistic, but I think it will add a bit of kick.

Renditions in Agony & Malice is designed to offer both a small quantity of stand-alone value, while offering the set-up for a complex system of ability combos. The brushstrokes themselves would deal moderate damage, but the figures left behind are the key to using Expressions.

Expressions of the Will of the Author is designed in much the same way, with a little extra: Each word's initial effect characterises the effects they bestow upon Renditions. The combination is meant to invoke the idea of each brushstroke of a character being incomplete without the next. Letters combined form words, words combined form sentences. Similarly, Expression and Renditions combined form Huabi's core powers. The benefits granted by each combination were difficult to come up with, so if anyone has any suggestions or ideas, feel free to share, as this is merely a rough draft.

Serenity in the Heart of War is meant to invoke the calm of this particular form of artistry, by simply shutting out the rest of reality for a moment. It employs the same cooldown concept as Harrow's Covenant to off-set the complete invulnerability, while simultaneously aiming to allow Huabi to fully concentrate on his brushwork, to ensure that the result is immaculate. This is why his ability stats are increased: Any artwork takes time. More time translates to a better quality.

Lastly, Artist of the Last Language plays on a somewhat common theme drawing parallels between armed fighting and calligraphy by making the brush itself the weapon. A few extra traits were thrown in to make it pop a bit more compared to an ordinary polearm, and to integrate it better into the kit.

 

Feel free to make any suggestions and leave any ideas you can think of. I'd enjoy making this a public brainstorm over what a calligrapher Warframe could be like. This is merely a draft of one possible angle.

 

 

 

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I second a calligraphy warframe, this concept is too good to be wasted.

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While the abilities themselves aren't bad, to me, they ultimately feel like an uninspired afterthought to the concept and how it functions. They feel samey and boring, which could be argued for maybe any new frame, but I just can't shake the feeling on this concept.

I really like the ability names and the way the abilities can overlay on each other  both mechanically and visually, but I feel like more can be done with the abilities to make them more than "damage" and "healing".

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On 2020-06-17 at 3:37 PM, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

While the abilities themselves aren't bad, to me, they ultimately feel like an uninspired afterthought to the concept and how it functions. They feel samey and boring, which could be argued for maybe any new frame, but I just can't shake the feeling on this concept.

I really like the ability names and the way the abilities can overlay on each other  both mechanically and visually, but I feel like more can be done with the abilities to make them more than "damage" and "healing".

It's true that the base effects are very limited, but it's a price that has to be paid in order to fit what is technically a total of seventeen abilities into one kit. What adds to this is the limitations of how Warframe works, as the base combat mechanisms are actually very bare-bones and manipulations of more factors would require more of those factors to be introduced first. 

Another option is probably to have the different Rendition + Expression combos interact with one another as well to create new synergies, but it does run the risk of making the frame even more bloated than it already is.

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On 2020-06-24 at 12:14 PM, Colyeses said:

It's true that the base effects are very limited, but it's a price that has to be paid in order to fit what is technically a total of seventeen abilities into one kit.

I think at that point it's worth asking why one should have seventeen abilities in the first place if they're all going to feel samey and uninspired. The problem I see with the above implementation is that it's both overly complex and fairly shallow: I'd rather not have to keep a booklet of all the different effects that can arise from combining the above frame's abilities, but at the end of the day, that's not going to be important either if the optimal combination is to just cast steroids on oneself.

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On 2020-06-28 at 4:05 PM, Teridax68 said:

I think at that point it's worth asking why one should have seventeen abilities in the first place if they're all going to feel samey and uninspired. The problem I see with the above implementation is that it's both overly complex and fairly shallow: I'd rather not have to keep a booklet of all the different effects that can arise from combining the above frame's abilities, but at the end of the day, that's not going to be important either if the optimal combination is to just cast steroids on oneself.

The goal is to emulate the way words combine to new meanings. And I suspect you won't need much brain power to remember them, as there's a certain intuitiveness to their design. All you need to remember is which form is which, and which word is which. The combinations should follow somewhat logically. For example, you know that Home of Potential isn't a speed buff, because +movement is useless when it only applies within a constricted space.

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Posted (edited)

I really like the concept but I agree that It would make for a very complicated frame gameplay wise. How about making him less complicated by reducing the numer of skills to 11 like this;

Ability one and two get ride of their solo function and only work in combination... with each other, they would no longer block the slots till cast but work like ivaras quiver or vaubens tools, but he would have two of them. To keep him energy efficent the first ability would cost no energy at all but instead you add an Ink meter like Nidus has it with mutation (but much easier to fill) and use ink for the first skill only. If you want to keep the range aspekt you could give the first skill a multi level charge, consuming additional ink for every charge level.

Otherwise nice work, had a similar concept in mind for a sun based frame, actually...

 

Edited by Imothec-the-Harbinger
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3 hours ago, Colyeses said:

The goal is to emulate the way words combine to new meanings. And I suspect you won't need much brain power to remember them, as there's a certain intuitiveness to their design.

I do not find the design intuitive, and it seems I'm not the only one.

3 hours ago, Colyeses said:

All you need to remember is which form is which, and which word is which. The combinations should follow somewhat logically. For example, you know that Home of Potential isn't a speed buff, because +movement is useless when it only applies within a constricted space.

That's already far more memorization than any current frame, and this is before even factoring in the specific combinations.

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11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's already far more memorization than any current frame, and this is before even factoring in the specific combinations.

Okay, but base frames require almost no memorisation to begin with, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the memorisation of Minelayer or Quiver. Plus, there will be visual assistance for the Renditions and Expressions anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Okay, but base frames require almost no memorisation to begin with, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the memorisation of Minelayer or Quiver. Plus, there will be visual assistance for the Renditions and Expressions anyway. 

Because people only use about half the abilities in those kits anyway, and don't have to combine them with other abilities for them to make sense. If "base frames require almost no memorisation to begin with", that's the standard you're gonna have to work with.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Because people only use about half the abilities in those kits anyway

Doesn't mean they don't remember them. Just like I know that Vector Pad is the third slot in Minelayer, despite using it literally never. And the icons just help remind you. 

28 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

and don't have to combine them with other abilities for them to make sense.

I don't think it's very difficult to remember that damage + line = line that deals damage.

28 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If "base frames require almost no memorisation to begin with", that's the standard you're gonna have to work with.

Absolutely not. There's no reason to restrict ourselves to what past warframes have done. We wouldn't have any cycling abilities to begin with if we rigorously stuck to 'one ability per slot', purely because previous frames had done so.

Edited by Colyeses

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Doesn't mean they don't remember them. Just like I know that Vector Pad is the third slot in Minelayer, despite using it literally never. And the icons just help remind you. 

Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. In either case, the distinction is academic, as even the full number of Minelayer grenades or Quiver arrows is a fraction of the different effects you are proposing to give the above kit.

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I don't think it's very difficult to remember that damage + line = line that deals damage.

If it's meant to be that simple, why even have those combination effects at all then? This also goes back to the original problem, because if all of this fiddling exists solely so that one can choose to deal some really basic effect in a line, circle, or point, then you have a system that is both overly complex and shallow.

Quote

Absolutely not. There's no reason to restrict ourselves to what past warframes have done. We wouldn't have any cycling abilities to begin with if we rigorously stuck to 'one ability per slot', purely because previous frames had done so.

We do within reason, though. If frames are designed with a standard of simplicity in mind, and are complained about being overwrought when their kits have too many mechanics tacked on, that's a pretty surefire sign that a frame designed with a multiple of those mechanics is unlikely to gel with the rest of the game. This is also ignoring the issue players typically have with cycling through a single ability wheel, let alone two, due to the associated delay.

Edited by Teridax68

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21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. In either case, the distinction is academic, as even the full number of Minelayer grenades or Quiver arrows is a fraction of the different effects you are proposing to give the above kit.

But this is, again, skating past the fact that some of these are logical consequences of the combination and thus don't have to be remembered.

The base abilities are only one over what Vauban and Ivara have.

22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

If it's meant to be that simple, why even have those combination effects at all then? This also goes back to the original problem, because if all of this fiddling exists solely so that one can choose to deal some really basic effect in a line, circle, or point, then you have a system that is both overly complex and shallow.

Because versatility is its own value. Being able to respond to various situations and having something in your arsenal to help you deal with various problems can give a Warframe a level of comfort. We could make it more complex and actually require players to remember everything, but that would make it less accessible. 

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

We do within reason, though. If frames are designed with a standard of simplicity in mind, and are complained about being overwrought when their kits have too many mechanics tacked on, that's a pretty surefire sign that a frame designed with a multiple of those mechanics is unlikely to gel with the rest of the game.

True, but I don't think I crossed a line in my design. 

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is also ignoring the issue players typically have with cycling through a single ability wheel, let alone two, due to the associated delay.

That's why they aren't on a wheel.

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17 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

But this is, again, skating past the fact that some of these are logical consequences of the combination and thus don't have to be remembered.

Logical to you. Your own argument is skating past the fact that your kit is stuck between either expecting players to remember a bunch of different combinations, in which case it's far too complicated, or can be reduced down to the same mechanics each time, in which case it's far too complicated and shallow. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

17 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

The base abilities are only one over what Vauban and Ivara have.

This is a silly argument, as neither Vauban nor Ivara are expected to combine multiple ability wheels to form new effects. Is that not the point of your frame concept?

17 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Because versatility is its own value. Being able to respond to various situations and having something in your arsenal to help you deal with various problems can give a Warframe a level of comfort. We could make it more complex and actually require players to remember everything, but that would make it less accessible. 

Okay, but there's your problem: you're trying to engineer versatility by special-casing a combination for each imagined scenario, which leads to an overly complex array of cases that individually are pretty rigid and not necessarily interesting. It doesn't have to be that way, as often simpler mechanics can be inherently quite versatile. Just to give an example, if you could project ink in freeform manner, with just that you could create a point, a line, a circle, and more, without having to manually select the shape. You'd have to alter the mechanics you could apply through that ink, but with just that you'd already be able to do much more with less. Do you see where I'm coming from?

17 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

True, but I don't think I crossed a line in my design. 

That much is clear to see.

17 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

That's why they aren't on a wheel.

So you are literally reinventing the wheel here, on top of proposing an exceptionally complex combination system dependent on it.

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13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

expecting players to remember

 

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a silly argument, as neither Vauban nor Ivara are expected to combine multiple ability wheels to form new effects.

A) I specifically mentioned base abilities

B) Combining these ability wheels is why you -don't- need to remember everything, because there are parts that can simply be deduced or at the very least give an approximation of what you're looking for. 

15 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Just to give an example, if you could project ink in freeform manner, with just that you could create a point, a line, a circle, and more, without having to manually select the shape. You'd have to alter the mechanics you could apply through that ink, but with just that you'd already be able to do much more with less. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Um.

LIterally all this would do is collapse one menu. You wouldn't need to remember which button equals which shape on his 1 (And there will be visual aids for that too), but you'd still have to remember each shape (now without visual aid) and their combinations, so this would not solve any of the issues. But it would invite a whole new host of issues because the game would need to be programmed with shape recognition, you'd have to fix that with level geometry, and you'd need to make sure that the game properly distinguishes between forms, and then there's the matter of range as well.

Sure, it sounds good on paper to just have free-form arts and crafts, but in reality it's pretty damn tough to work with. There's games that are built on the very concept of free-form drawing (Like Okami, and Trine borrows from it a little bit with Amadeus' conjurations), and even those games, that are built from the ground up to support it, struggle with it. 

This is a hell of a lot of effort to turn '1=line, 2=circle, 3=point' into one ability.

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

So you are literally reinventing the wheel here,

Considering most people are either indifferent to the current system or they don't like it, I think it's a good idea to reinvent that ability selection wheel, yeah. 

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7 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

 

A) I specifically mentioned base abilities

Your frame isn't just base abilities, though, which is the entire point. You are alternating in this argument between falling back on your "base abilities" when defending against criticism of excessive complexity, and mentioning the combinations when defending against criticism of your kit being shallow. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

7 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

B) Combining these ability wheels is why you -don't- need to remember everything, because there are parts that can simply be deduced or at the very least give an approximation of what you're looking for. 

That's not how combinations work, as you need to know the base components you're working in and their interaction in order to make sense of the ability. That's even more complex than just the base abilities on their own.

7 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Um.

LIterally all this would do is collapse one menu. You wouldn't need to remember which button equals which shape on his 1 (And there will be visual aids for that too), but you'd still have to remember each shape (now without visual aid) and their combinations, so this would not solve any of the issues. But it would invite a whole new host of issues because the game would need to be programmed with shape recognition, you'd have to fix that with level geometry, and you'd need to make sure that the game properly distinguishes between forms, and then there's the matter of range as well.

Sure, it sounds good on paper to just have free-form arts and crafts, but in reality it's pretty damn tough to work with. There's games that are built on the very concept of free-form drawing (Like Okami, and Trine borrows from it a little bit with Amadeus' conjurations), and even those games, that are built from the ground up to support it, struggle with it. 

This is a hell of a lot of effort to turn '1=line, 2=circle, 3=point' into one ability.

That's nice, except I specifically mentioned that such a system would involve changing the other ability in the kit so that it's not contingent upon specific shapes. You are the only one in this conversation insisting upon specific shape recognition, and it seems like your only complaint about my example is that it wouldn't fit your hyper-specific proposal. This is why it sometimes pays off to try to understand other people's perspectives.

7 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Considering most people are either indifferent to the current system or they don't like it, I think it's a good idea to reinvent that ability selection wheel, yeah. 

Sure, and I'm not specifically opposing that, I'm just pointing out you are proposing an untested new system that your complicated kit is going to be relying heavily upon. Perhaps it could improve multi-ability selection, or perhaps it could backfire and make for even clunkier and more confusing ability selection. Suggesting this on a kit with two ability wheels (or the equivalent replacement) is an order of magnitude riskier than suggesting it on a kit with just one.

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20 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Your frame isn't just base abilities, though, which is the entire point. You are alternating in this argument between falling back on your "base abilities" when defending against criticism of excessive complexity, and mentioning the combinations when defending against criticism of your kit being shallow. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You actually can. It's called depth, or skill expression. Not every frame has to be for everyone. I've still not gotten Grendel because he just doesn't appeal to me for example. That's not a problem, though. 

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's not how combinations work, as you need to know the base components you're working in and their interaction in order to make sense of the ability. That's even more complex than just the base abilities on their own.

That IS how combinations work. You need to know the base components, but that's only one over a kit like Vauban's or Ivara's, with additional visual aids to support it, and you can, in some cases, deduce their interaction, and in other cases you get an approximation that's close enough to what you're looking for.

For example: You put down River and hit it with Pain. The River now applies Pain. Simple as that.

Second example: You put down Home and hit it with Protection. Even if you were expecting it to raise a circular barrier that blocks incoming shots á la Snowglobe, you'll get a damage reduction instead that will still serve as a protection against incoming damage.

You are acting as though the -entire- warframe is unplayable if you can't remember ALL the interactions, and you're acting like remembering all these interactions is some sort of herculean task. 

Then you also debunk yourself by claiming that it'll just devolve to 'slap steroids on', which means no one would have to remember any interaction anyway, and it'll just end up being 5 abilities in 4 slots.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's nice, except I specifically mentioned that such a system would involve changing the other ability in the kit so that it's not contingent upon specific shapes. You are the only one in this conversation insisting upon specific shape recognition, and it seems like your only complaint about my example is that it wouldn't fit your hyper-specific proposal. This is why it sometimes pays off to try to understand other people's perspectives.

Ohh, so you're talking about a completely different concept entirely unrelated to this thread! My bad!

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, and I'm not specifically opposing that, I'm just pointing out you are proposing an untested new system that your complicated kit is going to be relying heavily upon. Perhaps it could improve multi-ability selection, or perhaps it could backfire and make for even clunkier and more confusing ability selection. Suggesting this on a kit with two ability wheels (or the equivalent replacement) is an order of magnitude riskier than suggesting it on a kit with just one.

If DE was averse to any kind of risk, we wouldn't have half the content in this game. The only thing I'm concerned about is how this would work on consoles, since I don't know how ability casting works there. For PC, I can't really foresee any troubles, other than microstuns throwing people off. Which I think is an issue with the current system as well anyway.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Colyeses said:

You actually can. It's called depth, or skill expression. Not every frame has to be for everyone. I've still not gotten Grendel because he just doesn't appeal to me for example. That's not a problem, though. 

Okay, so first off, that is not what depth or skill expression is, because depth is the number of valid choices one can make at any given time, and in that respect your frame appears quite shallow. Second, that's not what is being discussed here, as the specific problem being pointed out is that you are simultaneously denying and asserting the existence of combinations on your frame when the argument suits you. Either your frame only has its base abilities, in which case its kit is far too complicated for what little it does, or it has combinations, in which case its kit is almost an entire order of magnitude more overly complex relative to any other frame in the game.

Quote

That IS how combinations work. You need to know the base components, but that's only one over a kit like Vauban's or Ivara's, with additional visual aids to support it, and you can, in some cases, deduce their interaction, and in other cases you get an approximation that's close enough to what you're looking for.

It's not "only one over" because in addition to remembering the base elements, one needs to also remember the interaction between those elements, which is significantly more complicated than just cycling through a single ability wheel, so that's really not how combinations work, my dude. Even you implicitly acknowledge this by repeatedly falling back on the player only having a vague idea of what they're casting, even after visual aids and some dubious process of deduction based on the assumption that everybody thinks like you.

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For example: You put down River and hit it with Pain. The River now applies Pain. Simple as that.

Which, according to the combination list, also applies bonus heavy damage and a stun, on top of the damage, so it isn't as simple as that. If you didn't want to mention the combination, why even have combinations to begin with?

Quote

Second example: You put down Home and hit it with Protection. Even if you were expecting it to raise a circular barrier that blocks incoming shots á la Snowglobe, you'll get a damage reduction instead that will still serve as a protection against incoming damage.

So, effectively, you get a completely different effect that could screw you over if you were relying on another mechanic to fully protect you in a life-or-death situation. How is this good?

Quote

You are acting as though the -entire- warframe is unplayable if you can't remember ALL the interactions, and you're acting like remembering all these interactions is some sort of herculean task. 

I'm not saying the warframe is unplayable, I'm saying it's a bloated mess of mechanics that the player is unlikely to fully understand or care about, because people don't play Warframe so that they can memorize lists of mechanics with slight variations. Invoker from Dota runs on even fewer total mechanics than your frame, and he's notorious for being the most complicated character in that game... and Dota has a pretty high degree of character complexity, far more than Warframe. 

Quote

Then you also debunk yourself by claiming that it'll just devolve to 'slap steroids on', which means no one would have to remember any interaction anyway, and it'll just end up being 5 abilities in 4 slots.

Yes, which isn't a contradiction. A frame can be both overly complex and shallow, as is the case with the above kit. I'm saying that for all the different mechanics you've added, it's highly likely to simply degenerate into players using only a small subset of them in uninteresting ways, effectively killing the point of the combination system.

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Ohh, so you're talking about a completely different concept entirely unrelated to this thread! My bad!

Or, rather, a simpler way of implementing the theme you've chosen to approach with a similar idea of using and empowering ink in mind. It seems like the mere suggestion that you could've approached your idea differently is enough to make you visibly salty, particularly as you appear to have great difficulty even conceiving that others may have different thoughts or opinions from yours.

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If DE was averse to any kind of risk, we wouldn't have half the content in this game. The only thing I'm concerned about is how this would work on consoles, since I don't know how ability casting works there. For PC, I can't really foresee any troubles, other than microstuns throwing people off. Which I think is an issue with the current system as well anyway.

There is a difference between taking a valid and informed risk, and taking a reckless risk in spite of prior available information. Yours is the latter. DE isn't going to turn Warframe into a turn-based strategy game or the like just because "it's a risk", and taking risks purely for risk's sake is an absolutely awful mentality. Part of the problem here is that you seem to think that the means of convincing people to like your concept is to either have them accept it on blind faith (which is never going to happen), or to argue with them until they somehow do (which is even less likely to happen). Had you spent even half the effort you have arguing with me into making an actually functional concept, you'd likely have come up with a far better kit.

EDIT: Not sure if this'll go anywhere, and should probably warrant its own thread, but just based on the idea of manipulating ink, my quick take on a calligraphy frame:

  • Passive - Inkwell: Huabi gains bonus health, Energy, or ammo from the excess of his respective pickups, which decays over time.
  • 1 - Blood Ink: Huabi fires a continuous stream of ink which sticks to any surface it touches and lasts for a duration. Enemies in contact with it are inked, receiving a debuff that slows them, damages them over time, and causes them to drop a health, Energy, or ammo pickup on death. The pickup drop chance is biased towards whichever resource Huabi has the lowest percentage of.
  • 2 - Glyph of Pain: Huabi conjures a glyph at the target location that freezes enemies within in a scream of pain, stunning them and reducing their shields and armor over time. This effect propagates to all of Huabi's ink, applying the same effect to any inked enemies.
  • 3 - Glyph of Purity: Huabi conjures a glyph at the feet of the target ally (or his own if no ally is being targeted) that remains for a duration, granting allies within damage and status immunity (and cleansing them of status effects). This effect propagates to all of Huabi's ink, applying the same effect to allies in contact with it.
  • 4 - Words of PowerHuabi conjures the massive outline of a random glyph on the target surface, which he must fill with ink as accurately as possible. Upon completion of the glyph, it erupts, granting Huabi and his allies a massive Power Strength increase that decays over time. The initial bonus is dependent upon how accurately Huabi drew the glyph (i.e. drawing outside the outline for a messier glyph makes for a less intense bonus).

No idea how good the kit would be in practice, but should at least hopefully give an idea of what I mean by taking a simpler approach and getting more out of it.

Edited by Teridax68

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so first off, that is not what depth or skill expression is, because depth is the number of valid choices one can make at any given time, and in that respect your frame appears quite shallow.

Right. Quite shallow, but your main point is that there are too many options to remember. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Second, that's not what is being discussed here, as the specific problem being pointed out is that you are simultaneously denying and asserting the existence of combinations on your frame when the argument suits you

No, I keep pointing towards the fact that the abilities themselves point to what you're going to get out of the combination. The shape is determined by the shape, the class of effect by the word. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It's not "only one over"

I specified the BASE ABILITIES there. Read.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

one needs to also remember the interaction between those elements

I can't keep going over this.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

he player only having a vague idea of what they're casting, even after visual aids

Oh no, bud, the visual aid would let you know EXACTLY what you're casting. If the icon shows a (, you are casting a (.

 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm saying it's a bloated mess of mechanics that the player is unlikely to fully understand or care about

That only stems from your personal opinion.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

because people don't play Warframe so that they can memorize lists of mechanics with slight variations.

If we only cater to what 'people' want, we'd end up releasing the same frames over and over. Just some big nukeframe with a 'push-button to wipe cell' option. But that's not exactly grounds for interesting gameplay design, so excuse me for straying from it.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Invoker from Dota runs on even fewer total mechanics than your frame, and he's notorious for being the most complicated character in that game... and Dota has a pretty high degree of character complexity, far more than Warframe

Yeah, and he's infinitely more complicated, because his combinations are a chain of three for a total of twenty-seven combinations, none of which have any relation to the components they're built out of. 

Invoker is nonsensical. That's why his design doesn't work.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm saying that for all the different mechanics you've added, it's highly likely to simply degenerate into players using only a small subset of them in uninteresting ways, effectively killing the point of the combination system.

And when the bad Huabi players leave, the good ones can still put the full versatility of the arsenal to work. 

'Players will just cheese it' is not a reason to stop designing.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Or, rather, a simpler way of implementing the theme you've chosen to approach with a similar idea of using and empowering ink in mind.

No, because freeforming isn't exactly calligraphic. What you're aiming for is painting, not calligraphy. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

and taking a reckless risk in spite of prior available information. Yours is the latter.

What prior information is there? Because this system has never been tried. All we know is that people aren't happy with the wheel. Reason enough to reinvent. 

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Part of the problem here is

You arguing around the lowest common denominator, refusing to consider possibilities, not offering any suggestions, along with an abject refusal to consider anything someone else suggests that isn't already in the game.

Stop responding.

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42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Right. Quite shallow, but your main point is that there are too many options to remember. 

Exactly, welcome to the point. It is perfectly possible for something to be both overly complex and to offer too few truly compelling options, which your kit neatly demonstrates.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

No, I keep pointing towards the fact that the abilities themselves point to what you're going to get out of the combination. The shape is determined by the shape, the class of effect by the word.

Yes, and then you have a combination that doesn't immediately follow from either, as the combinations are arbitrarily determined by you. It is this aspect that you are attempting to deny here, while simultaneously flaunting when trying to claim your system offers diverse options. I am not the only person on this thread to tell you as well that your concept is overly complex, so it doesn't really come across like you're listening to feedback here.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

I specified the BASE ABILITIES there. Read.

I did, and as per the above, you can't have your cake and eat it too by denying the existence of your frame's combinations when it suits you. Impotent scream-texting isn't going to magically make people lose awareness that you've been desperately trying to shift the goalposts whenever the topic of complexity gets brought up.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

I can't keep going over this.

And yet you clearly try. Once again, if you didn't want to have your combinations talked about, you shouldn't have included them in your frame concept to begin with. Either your frame has that layer of interaction, in which case you need to assume the complexity cost that comes with that, or it doesn't, at which point you can't use them in defense of the shallowness of your kit.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Oh no, bud, the visual aid would let you know EXACTLY what you're casting. If the icon shows a (, you are casting a (.

So what visual aid do you propose to show which exact mechanics the player is getting from the combination, pray tell? For your insistence upon others reading what you have to say, it is you who are being wilfully blind to contrary arguments, as you've been pressed numerous times now to explain how the player is meant to properly understand the entire table of interactions you've put forth, and have conspicuously refused to answer.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

That only stems from your personal opinion.

One shared by the majority of people who have bothered to give feedback on your concept. If you didn't want opinions, why submit this concept for feedback at all?

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

If we only cater to what 'people' want, we'd end up releasing the same frames over and over. Just some big nukeframe with a 'push-button to wipe cell' option. But that's not exactly grounds for interesting gameplay design, so excuse me for straying from it.

There's a world of difference between catering to more than just the lowest common denominator, and catering to an audience that doesn't exist. If you want to design stuff for Warframe that only you will ever like, that's absolutely your prerogative, but then don't be surprised if other people don't fawn over that content as you'd want them to.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Yeah, and he's infinitely more complicated, because his combinations are a chain of three for a total of twenty-seven combinations, none of which have any relation to the components they're built out of. 

Invoker is nonsensical. That's why his design doesn't work.

They do, though, and the more recent version has ten, not twenty-seven combinations. So tell me, why is your kit any better, given that you've acknowledged the problems with Invoker's own complexity?

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

And when the bad Huabi players leave, the good ones can still put the full versatility of the arsenal to work. 

Unwarranted and unintentionally hilarious elitism isn't exactly going to counter the fact that the "good" Huabi players, i.e. the ones getting the most out of the frame, would likely be the ones using it in the way I mentioned, i.e. a rather boring manner that doesn't make your kit live up to its complexity. You seem to be under the impression that the most optimal playstyle will always be the most fun, which is... not how game design works.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

'Players will just cheese it' is not a reason to stop designing.

Agreed, it just means one needs to avoid designing in ways that are conducive to cheese. It seems you've missed that memo.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

No, because freeforming isn't exactly calligraphic. What you're aiming for is painting, not calligraphy. 

That's a rather silly and pedantic argument for a frame that arguably features more calligraphy than yours, given that one would have to actually write in my kit, while yours is... circles and dots? And an exalted paintbrush? Really? Not saying my kit is good, let alone the best possible implementation of a calligraphy frame, just pointing out that the automatic defensive stance you've taken is not only rather weak, but also far more destructive to your own suggested concept, which you seem willing to defend to the death, than it is to my idle suggestion.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

What prior information is there? Because this system has never been tried. All we know is that people aren't happy with the wheel. Reason enough to reinvent.

I mean, one could easily point to all the instances of DE trying mechanical and systemic reworks that didn't work out, releasing frames with ability wheels with the consistent problem of only a subset of them only ever seeing real use, already having tables of effects in Warframe that people have rightfully pointed out are needlessly complex and reductive, not constructive, to gameplay, but if you really want to ignore all that, be my guest.

42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

You arguing around the lowest common denominator, refusing to consider possibilities, not offering any suggestions, along with an abject refusal to consider anything someone else suggests that isn't already in the game.

Stop responding.

This is all rather nonsensical, particularly given that you've given me crap in the past for daring to suggest changes to the game, so you yourself ought to know you're lying, and that I too am aware of this fact. We both know that the above isn't the issue, it's just you finding excuses for your refusal to accept any different point of view, let alone criticism. Before I gave feedback, your thread was dead, yet apparently you find even constructive criticism so unbearable to even witness that you'd rather deprive your concept of what little oxygen is left for it than face the facts. You're not looking for feedback, you're looking for applause. You've failed.

 

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