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The Jackal 2.0 a great start for the next generation


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1 hour ago, Voltage said:

I actually dislike the new Jackal boss fight from the preview. The original fight was definitely boring and too easy, but this new fight is just exactly what the Exploiter Orb was: A long drawn out mission with flashy animations, cutscenes, and invulnerability mechanics where the damage you deal is hardly relevant. The old Jackal and the new Jackal have the exact same amount of damage requirements (atleast from what we saw). The new Jackal is just stuffed with eye candy that artificially draws out the fight.

You say that as if it's a bad thing but most people love the Exploiter Orb fight lol

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1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

 

Ah so you are one of those cinematic skippers. Looks like New Jackal isn’t meant for you.

Would you rather have meta free Exploiter or a strict Meta like the Eidolons?

At least Eidolons give purpose to the 500+ weapons, Warframes, companions, Amps, Archwings, etc. we collect on our journey as a space ninja. An MR 0 with some common sense of avoiding enemy fire is just as well equipped for the Exploiter Orb as an MR 29. Sure, the Jackal is for new players and I don't think it's good to make that fight harder by any means, but it has the same lack of engagement the previous fight had with just more cinematic cutscenes. Tyl Regor was a proper boss rework, same with Kela De Thaym. Ambulas Reborn, Exploiter Orb, and this Jackal rework are lame.

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8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

At-least Eidolons give purpose to the 500+ weapons

Not true, at least there are only around 20 weapons (Crit Snipers, Chakkrur, Velocitus, Bramma, etc) that can deal decent damage to Eidolons while the rest only tickles them. Warframes? Only 5 META and 2 off meta (Vauban and Absorb Nyx) while the rest contribute nothing to the fight because they are immune to abilities. Archwing? Only Itzal and Amesha contribute to the fight while the rest are trash. Amps ? Only the crit ones.

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28 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Not true, at least there are only around 20 weapons (Crit Snipers, Chakkrur, Velocitus, Bramma, etc) that can deal decent damage to Eidolons while the rest only tickles them. Warframes? Only 5 META and 2 off meta (Vauban and Absorb Nyx) while the rest contribute nothing to the fight because they are immune to abilities. Archwing? Only Itzal and Amesha contribute to the fight while the rest are trash. Amps ? Only the crit ones.

 

Dps for 5x3 hunt: Oberon chroma volt titania ivara frost ember octavia rhino mirage garuda zephyr

You say 5 warframes and 2 off meta, i tell you 12 warframes 100% viable for 5x3 hunt, and you know what i still using the "Trash oldmeta" chroma

 

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1 hour ago, (XB1)DOMPATRIOT said:

 

We all know it won't add anything new (at least nothing worthwile), but looking at DE that haven't drop any content and has been bullet jumping tweets for the last 3 weeks, we will probably wait until October for something new to do but of course before that there must be a Tennocon so they can hype something that was hyped last Tennocon and get new players for some reason, so (sadly) this is DE's something to do while waiting for another 3 months... 

Fair enough, I don't consider remasters content; more akin to repainting a room you know? But I guess form some folk, seeing something just different is at least something and has its own appeal.

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2 hours ago, Voltage said:

I actually dislike the new Jackal boss fight from the preview. The original fight was definitely boring and too easy, but this new fight is just exactly what the Exploiter Orb was: A long drawn out mission with flashy animations, cutscenes, and invulnerability mechanics where the damage you deal is hardly relevant. The old Jackal and the new Jackal have the exact same amount of damage requirements (atleast from what we saw). The new Jackal is just stuffed with eye candy that artificially draws out the fight.

 

DE is a company that has a lot of skilled modelers and designers but very few are authentic game developers. Expert game developers are individuals who understand boss fights and how to program in addition to the basic tool set given. Bosses requires scripts, sequences and some of them a limb damage system if needed. DE is not well known for their bosses as Fromsoft, Naughty Dog or Santa Monica. Boss game play design never was Digital Extremes strongest point. How DE's design their bosses are very "ADA" like where a basic mechanics is required with zones of invulnerability for the prolongation. 

DE DOESN'T KNOW HOW MAKE BOSS BATTLES since the beginning of their career. What you are seeing here could be considered almost a miracle where at least there is some sort of destructible environment. We can't expect a Shadows of the Colossus battle or the Last Guardian on a game like this. DE doesn't have that level of expertise doing engagements with large enemies. Boss fights requires a lot of game developing maturity and consulting. 

The other issue we face is that veterans have seen this game for about seven years. Usually games are played once and then forgotten when all secrets and hints are fully debunked. The player who visits these fights will know how to deal with it in no time throwing away challenge. Those experienced players already outgrew the game.

Eidolons, Exploiter orb, Profit taker are encounters that requires a profound treatment because they are way too simplistic focusing only on gear check and a particular routine. We all know that DE is not Fromsoft. At least we have to cheer them up when at least they put some thoughts on the things they release.  

 

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27 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Fair enough, I don't consider remasters content; more akin to repainting a room you know? But I guess form some folk, seeing something just different is at least something and has its own appeal.

 

I worked in 3d modeling. With all honesty that can be, with all due respect, very offensive. Designing props is not easy. Redesigning, allocating, illumination, ambientation, defining props, level animations, texturing among many other things takes an insane amount of time. This is not repainting or just texturing old geometry. The geometry was conceptualized, drawn, painted, converted into props, solid geometry and then placed in the game. 

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2 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

You say 5 warframes and 2 off meta, i tell you 12 warframes 100% viable for 5x3 hunt, and you know what i still using the "Trash oldmeta" chroma

That's still 12 out of 43 (Including Protea).

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2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

I worked in 3d modeling. With all honesty that can be, with all due respect, very offensive. Designing props is not easy. Redesigning, allocating, illumination, ambientation, defining props, level animations, texturing among many other things takes an insane amount of time. This is not repainting or just texturing old geometry. The geometry was conceptualized, drawn, painted, converted into props, solid geometry and then placed in the game. 

Having background in artistic endeavors myself, it is the natural way of things; if you waste your time trying to make the passed over perfect, yes it might be perfect; but never noticed. Much like how the standard rush to the exit game-play misses the vast details of the art team going into level and tile set design. You are talking about the work done for something that is decorative, and unneeded, this isn't putting in a new area or advancing the plot of the game, this is redefining or prettying up what already is and giving a show-man's explanation for why it was worth the ten-thousand dollar mark-up. Prey tell me you don't think that the DE team needs to reinvent the wheel to tear out an existing one, and put a more shiny version in?

My point is about the substance of this entire ordeal; going to the effort for Jackal to be bigger, meaner, and more of a cinematic than a fight (like Exploiter and Ropalolyst if you aren't instantly killed by her fast firing auto lasers). Veterans, or whatever mastery folk try to equate to that, being able to fight said boss in Sorties isn't really even a meaningful consideration; as its for all intents and purposes to the game the same boss reward wise. Fighting an opponent that takes 15 minutes to defeat is no difference than one that is dead in the first volley if there isn't a tangible reason to do so and fight them in the first place. This can be story; mechanical rewards, or some other form of progression through deals like events; but why make tear out an existing - working - model and encounter just to have something flashier as you said Felsagger, this is a drain on visual design and implementation resources for no currently revealed pay-off than as I stated "Fresh paint".

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Seems the folks that are already condemning the fight are the same folks that just want to speed through everything as fast as possible. Yeah, 90% of the game is that. Go into a mission, nuke everything in sight/rush to a point/deal with a timer, then leave. Bosses shouldn't be like that. Bosses should require more than just a gear check. I'd rather my brain or reflexes be tested against a boss than my overpowered weapon of choice. Please. Let those of us who want at least a modicum of challenge have this one. You can have the rest of the game.

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4 hours ago, Learicorn said:

You say that as if it's a bad thing but most people love the Exploiter Orb fight lol

Who is crazy enough to enjoy this slogfest ?

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24 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Who is crazy enough to enjoy this slogfest ?

*raises hand*

And the Ropalolyst and Eidolons. I find them particularly enjoyable in solo mode. Should have enough rep to finally unlock Profit-Taker today or tomorrow and I'm looking forward to that fight too. 

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I enjoyed the exploiter orb fight, ropalolyst mechanics, heck even the profit taker fight. At least with that you have to actually understand the mechanics by losing a couple of times, gear up properly, go in and fight again with brain cells actually functioning. If a developer made boss fights straight forward and capable to be murdered in one shot then whats the point of having a boss fight at all? If everything were too easy then where is the challenge? And if there is no challenge then people will just speed through all possible content and then cry content drought

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7 hours ago, SoulEchelon said:

Seems the folks that are already condemning the fight are the same folks that just want to speed through everything as fast as possible. Yeah, 90% of the game is that. Go into a mission, nuke everything in sight/rush to a point/deal with a timer, then leave. Bosses shouldn't be like that. Bosses should require more than just a gear check. I'd rather my brain or reflexes be tested against a boss than my overpowered weapon of choice. Please. Let those of us who want at least a modicum of challenge have this one. You can have the rest of the game.

 

Completely agree. At least I try to be positive and enjoy that bit of content without being too exhaustive. I just want to have fun seeing a new tile that was seven years old. Enjoy the boss fight for what it is and get the new frame. Seems way too hard to enjoy something these days. At least we are being positive with the developer who tries to do something in this free to play game. 

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1 hour ago, Angwah said:

*raises hand*

And the Ropalolyst and Eidolons. I find them particularly enjoyable in solo mode. Should have enough rep to finally unlock Profit-Taker today or tomorrow and I'm looking forward to that fight too. 

Let's say I'm okay-ish with Ropalolyst. My PoV is altered by the fact most of the few runs I've made against it were buggy af, otherwise I think this is a good-enough encounter. Eidolons and Profit Taker, yeah I enjoy them, they feel like real bosses that want you dead by throwing all they have.

Exploiter Orb, on the other hand, is slow and uneventful. I mean, whole part 2 is us hitting an inoffensive spider who just seem to not do anything. Nothing happens in this fight, we're just here to destroy an Orb which was chilling in her corner, and when we attack her she... does nothing, so we're just trying to kill her babies to play basketball games to make her overheat.

giphy.gif

At no point of this fight are you threatened to die. You could literally stand with an unranked unmodded Nyx underneath her belly, you'll probably never die. Ah and you don't even need weapons, yeah yeah, do you feel the threat ? Neither do I. How this thing ever erased Deck 12 is a mystery to me, if all they had to do was to overheat her while she threw... raknoid mites at them.

I hate Exploiter with a passion, but on the other hand I feel Profit Taker is greatly designed. This S#&$ wants to see you dead and definitely tries to kill you.

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3 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Who is crazy enough to enjoy this slogfest ?

*Also raises hand*

I prefer it more than the profit taker, which I personally find is too gimmick-y, or having too much steps.

The only issue I have with the exploiter orb is that she is not aggressive enough on the second phase. Something like chasing after you and the flame thrower to do more damage and more range.

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It looks cool, I have to remember to bring unleveled weapons to be able to experience it in it's whole.
 

8 hours ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

bosses are supposed to be taken more seriously than a grineer lancer

nah "pres EEEEEEE"

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1小时前 , Chewarette 说:

I mean, whole part 2 is us hitting an inoffensive spider who just seem to not do anything. Nothing happens in this fight

Isnt you supposed to kill the Coolant , seal the fracture and throw Thermia at her? That's alot of running and shooting.

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1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Profit Taker is greatly designed

I disagree, the units that escort PT poses a larger threat than the boss itself, which is not a great fight design. Bosses should be main threat that pressures the player not the units that can one clip any frame that isn’t Chroma, Rhino, Inaros, Oberon, Hildryn, Mesa, and Trinity. 
 

If DE reduced the amount of the mobs that guards PT or replace all of the units with raknoids that have telegraphed attacks then her fight can be enjoyable for me and other folks alike.

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8 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Not true, at least there are only around 20 weapons (Crit Snipers, Chakkrur, Velocitus, Bramma, etc) that can deal decent damage to Eidolons while the rest only tickles them. Warframes? Only 5 META and 2 off meta (Vauban and Absorb Nyx) while the rest contribute nothing to the fight because they are immune to abilities. Archwing? Only Itzal and Amesha contribute to the fight while the rest are trash. Amps ? Only the crit ones.

I've seen MK1 Braton, Castanas, Titania, Wolf Sledge, Stug, and more used for Eidolons. People gravitate towards the easy methods. It doesn't mean that they are restricted to a few weapons.

Again, I would much prefer a boss that uses your equipment that feels engaging than watching forced cutscenes and waiting for invincibility phases to end so i can kill the boss in the same way it was years ago.

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21 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I disagree, the units that escort PT poses a larger threat than the boss itself, which is not a great fight design. Bosses should be main threat that pressures the player not the units that can one clip any frame that isn’t Chroma, Rhino, Inaros, Oberon, Hildryn, Mesa, and Trinity. 
 

If DE reduced the amount of the mobs that guards PT or replace all of the units with raknoids that have telegraphed attacks then her fight can be enjoyable for me and other folks alike.

PT can be done with Mirage. Dying to enemy fire in PT is on the player, not the game. The fight is extremely engaging and actually creates critical thinking about your entire loadout to match elementals and try unique weapons (like Kuva Nukor with Magnetic). I would definitely say that PT is DEs most well designed boss.

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29 minutes ago, BRZZAFK said:

Isnt you supposed to kill the Coolant , seal the fracture and throw Thermia at her? That's alot of running and shooting.

Kill a useless enemy with low HP and posing no threat to you, pick up something, put this thing somewhere, picking it up again and throwing it to the boss isn't really interesting. Or are you feeling the thrill everytime you pick up a power cell for excavation pods and when you put it in? Yeah, that's equally as "fun" as Exploiter Part 2.

23 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I disagree, the units that escort PT poses a larger threat than the boss itself, which is not a great fight design. Bosses should be main threat that pressures the player not the units that can one clip any frame that isn’t Chroma, Rhino, Inaros, Oberon, Hildryn, Mesa, and Trinity. 

No, there are different design possibilities. Having a boss with additional enemies is part of the design (even with how awful it is, Ambulas is the same kind). Here, enemies are SUMMONED by the boss, and they're an integral part of the design (by looting Heavy Weapon Ammo).

And thanks to those adds, this fight seems indeed eclectic and fast-paced, it also brings many other options as controlling/killing smaller units can be a huge relief to your teammates.

Exploiter Orb being a spider, slowly walking outside, doing literally nothing else than calling for her children to cool her down (in a frosty area, huehuehue) and waiting for us to overheat her ass, is lame as #*!%. Honestly, I've killed Exploiter Orb 2 times I think, and everytime I felt as much fun as I'd do if I faced a level 8000 charger with 20 billion Armor.

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43分钟前 , Chewarette 说:

Kill a useless enemy with low HP and posing no threat to you, pick up something, put this thing somewhere, picking it up again and throwing it to the boss isn't really interesting. Or are you feeling the thrill everytime you pick up a power cell for excavation pods and when you put it in? Yeah, that's equally as "fun" as Exploiter Part 2.

It's a threat to my mission timer so yes.

Just saying it's not necessary to have a failure condition to make it intense.There's a lot of way to prevent player from dead in this game anyway.Making boss deal damage doesnt has much different. 

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