The Jackal 2.0 a great start for the next generation

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

2 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I'm not sure if their engine can sign a check they can't cash. But it seems that their engine is hurting them a bit on that area. I'm not a game designer, something that I'm trying to be in the future, but I honestly think that their engine IS NOT the problem. The problem here is the MINDSET. Guerrilla Games are not afraid of using the Mumakils from lord of the rings for a full fight: 

Horizon Zero 2: 

And Guerrilla Games understood that boss fights ARE the meat of their game:

Not one, but two furious bosses in a fight. 

This is a game that I have and play. The player should keep track in his mind the pursuit curve and the orientation of the robot. Otherwise the player is done. It is a chess mental game. 

I know. I've played Horizon and loved it. 🙂 

[Felsagger]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)DoctorWho_90250 said:

I know. I've played Horizon and loved it. 🙂 

And these are the same people that made Killzone Shadow Fall, another great game in my library. 

You see, Alloy is another "War Frame" like Batman in Batman: Arkham Knight and Spider Man in Insomniac's Spiderman. These ARE war frames with a finite tool kit that is based on one style. However War Frame has all of these stiles in one small playground when they deserve much better. 

The boss fights are THE reason that justifies the skill set, the only fighting chance we have to tackle large enemies. Many of these great games let you LIVE the cut scene instead of making you watch it. Do you know what game does that? Shadows of the Colossus. 

If we analyze what War Frame does, we see influences in God of War 4 with elemental damage. We have the same here in Horizon Zero Dawn. Boss fights are the epitome of the single player game and now the cooperative team player game, the famous PvE. 

DE took a portion of the video game industry for themselves and they are doing nothing with it. Their parkour system and the quick reaction traversing IS their game. Instead of plugging in dumb bosses and dumb enemies why not get more "Naughty Dog" and press us harder. 

DE sees their game, and I swear, like a mobile phone application instead of a full fledged game. They have it but somehow they simply do not commit over it. This is the thing I do not understand. Why not other parallel studios help them complete their game with all these details? Why not? 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Felsagger

[kevoisvevo]

On 2020-06-11 at 4:33 AM, Voltage said:

I actually dislike the new Jackal boss fight from the preview. The original fight was definitely boring and too easy, but this new fight is just exactly what the Exploiter Orb was: A long drawn out mission with flashy animations, cutscenes, and invulnerability mechanics where the damage you deal is hardly relevant. The old Jackal and the new Jackal have the exact same amount of damage requirements (atleast from what we saw). The new Jackal is just stuffed with eye candy that artificially draws out the fight.

It's not that long tbh, instead of a 2 min fight it's a 4 min fight now. Alad v with zanuka is much worse.

 

[Felsagger]

7 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

It's not that long tbh, instead of a 2 min fight it's a 4 min fight now. Alad v with zanuka is much worse.

 

Alad V is quite a timed invulnerability boss. Many of these bosses extends time artificially. 

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, Felsagger said:

And these are the same people that made Killzone Shadow Fall, another great game in my library. 

You see, Alloy is another "War Frame" like Batman in Batman: Arkham Knight and Spider Man in Insomniac's Spiderman. These ARE war frames with a finite tool kit that is based on one style. However War Frame has all of these stiles in one small playground when they deserve much better. 

The boss fights are THE reason that justifies the skill set, the only fighting chance we have to tackle large enemies. Many of these great games let you LIVE the cut scene instead of making you watch it. Do you know what game does that? Shadows of the Colossus. 

If we analyze what War Frame does, we see influences in God of War 4 with elemental damage. We have the same here in Horizon Zero Dawn. Boss fights are the epitome of the single player game and now the cooperative team player game, the famous PvE. 

DE took a portion of the video game industry for themselves and they are doing nothing with it. Their parkour system and the quick reaction traversing IS their game. Instead of plugging in dumb bosses and dumb enemies why not get more "Naughty Dog" and press us harder. 

DE sees their game, and I swear, like a mobile phone application instead of a full fledged game. They have it but somehow they simply do not commit over it. This is the thing I do not understand. Why not other parallel studios help them complete their game with all these details? Why not? 

Warframe isnt based around boss fights though. Just like arpgs in general arent either. Bosses kinda lived and died with Diablo 2, the genre nowdays is more about mass slaughter in hack n' slash style. Not sure why you want WF to be so many different things that just isnt part of the core. Bosses in most of these games are mainly something you experience once as you go through the story, then you never actually experience them again, or when you do you simply overpower them and ignore the mechanics.

Even in the boss rifts of D3 you pretty much ignore the mechanics that once made those bosses threatening, since at the time you start doing those rifts for materials you're already geared. So even the Larder or Rakanoth, that were deadly when you did the story or played overtuned vanilla, are like little puppies you barely notice as you stomp on them.

I think you need to stop thinking that just because it is PvE it could be the same as other PvE. It cant, there are vast differences between PvE games, what type of genre they belong to and what game systems they use. Should we start telling DE to make trinity content just because it works in some PvE games like WoW, ToR, EQ and so on, even though we dont have a trinity here?

25 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Alad V is quite a timed invulnerability boss. Many of these bosses extends time artificially. 

Actually he isnt if you play the encounter correctly.

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[Felsagger]

12 hours ago, kevoisvevo said:

It's not that long tbh, instead of a 2 min fight it's a 4 min fight now. Alad v with zanuka is much worse.

 

At least the fight is a bit more enjoying. The new players are having a better experience for sure. And the new Tileset looks amazing. 

[Galuf]

I though there was a consensus about star chart bosses beeing fodder material. This new Jackal fight is a 2mn one that puts emphasis on pre operator gameplay as d1 the void dash was rigging it. This update has nothing to rejoice veteran players wich is kind of sad as the game is already on every platform, there are less and less prospects each years. I'll give it a 5/10 because of the aesthetic but I'm sorry I'm not part of the crowd that is sensible to it. I prefered honestly some other reworks like Kela De Thaym wich is very old.

Now about the quest itself: it is alse poor. However it is pretty and polished and the new corpus tiles are a success.

I'm very mixed about this update and pretty pissed off that it is 100% dedicated to newer players. Jupiter rework was a success because it introduced a compelling game mode(also the boss wasn't trash), this one introduces this coin concept that is extremly bland and easy in its current state(it has high potential like liches tho), you have no reason to engage with it after collecting the parts and eventually the fluffy posters.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Galuf

[Felsagger]

29 minutes ago, Galuf said:

I though there was a consensus about star chart bosses beeing fodder material. This new Jackal fight is a 2mn one that puts emphasis on pre operator gameplay as d1 the void dash was rigging it. This update has nothing to rejoice veteran players wich is kind of sad as the game is already on every platform, there are less and less prospects each years. I'll give it a 5/10 because of the aesthetic but I'm sorry I'm not part of the crowd that is sensible to it. I prefered honestly some other reworks like Kela De Thaym wich is very old.

Now about the quest itself: it is alse poor. However it is pretty and polished and the new corpus tiles are a success.

I'm very mixed about this update and pretty pissed off that it is 100% dedicated to newer players. Jupiter rework was a success because it introduced a compelling game mode(also the boss wasn't trash), this one introduces this coin concept that is extremly bland and easy in its current state(it has high potential like liches tho), you have no reason to engage with it after collecting the parts and eventually the fluffy posters.

 

When DE tries to put effort on something we trash them all out. We can't see the positives on what they tried in this update. 

 

Yes, Jupiter Tile set with Wisp was outstanding. That was a sure hit. We have to motivate DE push their game further instead of having knife and fork all the time in our hands. DE decided to push Tennocon Agust 1 because you know what, the PS5 became a game changer. DE is interested on that pie of costumers. So they are at least trying to insert themselves in the next generation. 

 

 

[Galuf]

il y a 58 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

Yes, Jupiter Tile set with Wisp was outstanding. That was a sure hit. We have to motivate DE push their game further instead of having knife and fork all the time in our hands. DE decided to push Tennocon Agust 1 because you know what, the PS5 became a game changer. DE is interested on that pie of costumers. So they are at least trying to insert themselves in the next generation.

1) I also said very nice things

2) On a personnal perspective, I feel empathetic about your angelism, but as every thing that goes nowhere in this world, it has a very self degrading side. DE doesn't need our inconditionnal support to succeed

3) For the PS5, we don't really have to care, the console releases was imho a mistake anyway. The update quality seems to be inversely tied to the number of consoles the game is released on. On top of it I don't know how you can make a game attractive on PS5 while it is also on NSW... I understand why they went on console market($$$), but as a old player and as a player who owns a good PC, it is always a bad new. NEVER a game is as good when released on consoles simulatenously. It works with outstanding console games, wich get a better PC version(MHW) and that's it. Each console is a technical concern, it makes games pretty stale.

[Felsagger]

33 minutes ago, Galuf said:

1) I also said very nice things

I acknowledge them. 

33 minutes ago, Galuf said:

2) On a personnal perspective, I feel empathetic about your angelism, but as every thing that goes nowhere in this world, it has a very self degrading side. DE doesn't need our inconditionnal support to succeed

No they don't. 

My father told me a basic fact about life. Being grateful helps people feel more emphatic with the small goals. Hammering on the negatives all the time will not stop DE doing further mistakes. I decided to focus on the good qualities so they feel a warmth reception. I will not change the course of history but at least I'm not going to make them feel bad about it.   

33 minutes ago, Galuf said:

3) For the PS5, we don't really have to care, the console releases was imho a mistake anyway. The update quality seems to be inversely tied to the number of consoles the game is released on. On top of it I don't know how you can make a game attractive on PS5 while it is also on NSW... I understand why they went on console market($$$), but as a old player and as a player who owns a good PC, it is always a bad new. NEVER a game is as good when released on consoles simulatenously. It works with outstanding console games, wich get a better PC version(MHW) and that's it. Each console is a technical concern, it makes games pretty stale.

 

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man." 

 

[(XBOX)Red Dough Boy]

On 2020-06-10 at 7:17 PM, Kaotyke said:

We need QTEs with a lot of button mashing to get to the level of God of War

How many controlers did that time period where they were popular I had to replace, I wonder?

Luckily it's reminiscent not exactly like God Of War, and I find button mashing doesn't mess up controllers as bad as waggling joysticks does like in Resident Evil games. Could be my own personal thing, but that's what I've noticed seems to go out on controllers. 

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

I don't think DE understands once a good boss is designed with enough interplay you can then drop those in to break up monotony. 

One of the best fights is tusk thumper considering it just doesn't stand there and let you wail on it before repositioning...great! Hey DE add more armor to knock off and expose more hit points to weaken it overall (creating more gameplay/interaction).

Those sequences when you hop on a boss...stop right there. The boss should be able to buck you off if you don't keep balanced-within that short segment I've injected more gameplay, same with getting knocked off your feet. Allow me wiggle and get up faster, not just lay there (creating more gameplay/ interaction).

Crew ships and that ultra long destruction sequence...let me shoot it some more to speed up the process.(creating more gameplay/interaction) 

There are just too many dead spots when talking of interaction. 

Ancients grapple is definite why can't  I wiggle out of that?(creating more gameplay/interaction)

I often get lulled to sleep when grinding...yeah that's me over there not moving for two or three waves. 

[Sinisha]

This boss fight is a nice and welcome change. Finally a boss that feel like a boss to some extent.

One suggestion for the fight. Make it so that the boss somehow disables the use of the operator if you want people to experience the fight instead of avoiding all damage by jumping in the Void mode. The potential for a real "boos fight" feel is lost when you can just hide from the damage.

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, Sinisha said:

This boss fight is a nice and welcome change. Finally a boss that feel like a boss to some extent.

One suggestion for the fight. Make it so that the boss somehow disables the use of the operator if you want people to experience the fight instead of avoiding all damage by jumping in the Void mode. The potential for a real "boos fight" feel is lost when you can just hide from the damage.

To be fair, the fight is intended to be fought long before the Operator shows up to begin with, so one could probably make an argument this makes the player feel cool for using the new tool in their toolbox.

Of course, one could also argue that maybe the Operator's invincibility+inivisiblity on demand combo is problem for more than just this one fight.

[akrid45]

People need to realize that this is like the second boss you fight in the game which means it's Base stats is balanced around new player damage and not late game player damage and those Base stats scales with levels. So even if it's a level 100 jackal, it will still have less HP than for example a level 100 kela de thaym or a ambulas etc. It's like the boss you fight after captain vor so yeah duh it's not supposed to be very difficult

And yeah it's designed for new players so using void mode to cheese it doesn't really count since new players won't have that 

Even with all that, this boss is still more difficult than most other starchart Bosses so i hope DE keeps this up 👍

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

To be fair, the fight is intended to be fought long before the Operator shows up to begin with, so one could probably make an argument this makes the player feel cool for using the new tool in their toolbox.

Of course, one could also argue that maybe the Operator's invincibility+inivisiblity on demand combo is problem for more than just this one fight.

True. It was designed at the point where the player still doesn't have the operator. With the Operator the fight is a bit trivial.

Some people need to understand that such bosses are star chart bosses where the player is experiencing the game for the first time. Seasoned players will find these easier. However the time gate imposed on some bosses is just way too artificial trying to extend the engagement. 

The mere existence of the PS5 is putting pressure on everybody. Sony changed the panorama completely. Made Steve move Tennocon. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

The mere existence of the PS5 is putting pressure on everybody. Sony changed the panorama completely. Made Steve move Tennocon. 

You assume too much. NSW is a fairly new port for DE, whatever DE does with WF needs to cater to that console aswell. Not to mention it also needs to work with PS4 and Xbone. Tennocon was also not moved due to this either, it was moved because they want to show at tennocon what we will actually get instead of something further down the line that isnt finished (like RJ), which anything related to PS5 would fall under since it isnt out until the winter holidays.

And aslong as PCs are a thing, PS5 (or any future next gen consoles) will not put more pressure on anything than a current high end PC does, except when it comes to console exlusive games. And last I checked WF isnt console exclusive. All that DE needs to do is tweak the console patches so it fits a newer model, evertything is already there in the game since it is available on PC. It isnt like PS5 will set a new standard that also effects what is available on a PC, it will still be behind since it is a console with poor cooling among other things.

[Felsagger]

5 hours ago, akrid45 said:

 

And yeah it's designed for new players so using void mode to cheese it doesn't really count since new players won't have that 

Even with all that, this boss is still more difficult than most other starchart Bosses so i hope DE keeps this up 👍

That's good. At least there's a honest intention to improve the assets. Besides, new players are getting a great game all the way up. With the PS5 the game will have other chances expanding on the level size and level of details or LOD on everything. 

[akrid45]

On 2020-06-12 at 9:30 AM, Felsagger said:

I'm not sure if their engine can sign a check they can't cash. But it seems that their engine is hurting them a bit on that area. I'm not a game designer, something that I'm trying to be in the future, but I honestly think that their engine IS NOT the problem. The problem here is the MINDSET. Guerrilla Games are not afraid of using the Mumakils from lord of the rings for a full fight: 

Horizon Zero 2: 

And Guerrilla Games understood that boss fights ARE the meat of their game:

Not one, but two furious bosses in a fight. 

This is a game that I have and play. The player should keep track in his mind the pursuit curve and the orientation of the robot. Otherwise the player is done. It is a chess mental game. 

 

For me this is the best boss in the game 

[Felsagger]

That one can use "thermia fractures". That Gorilla/bear mech is quite tricky. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Felsagger

[Kyronz]

invulnerable boss sessions are just LAZY

Edited June 13, 2020 by Kyronz

[Felsagger]

42 minutes ago, Kyronz said:

invulnerable boss sessions are just LAZY

Sadly DE is not Guerrilla Games, Santa Monica, Insomniac, Fromsoft or Naughty Dog. 

Few years ago capable players where almost one shot'ing these bosses. In just few seconds they where taken down. The community argued about it making DE implement artificial time of invulnerability. At least DE is trying to do something. I wish there will be more dedication on the bosses but that is what is in their boat. Now that I'm aware of the PS5, I'll go directly towards Horizon Zero 2 among many other games. Can't wait for Cyberpunk 77. Besides WarFrame will be available on those consoles too. 

[-Kittens-]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You assume too much. NSW is a fairly new port for DE, whatever DE does with WF needs to cater to that console aswell. Not to mention it also needs to work with PS4 and Xbone. Tennocon was also not moved due to this either, it was moved because they want to show at tennocon what we will actually get instead of something further down the line that isnt finished (like RJ), which anything related to PS5 would fall under since it isnt out until the winter holidays.

And aslong as PCs are a thing, PS5 (or any future next gen consoles) will not put more pressure on anything than a current high end PC does, except when it comes to console exlusive games. And last I checked WF isnt console exclusive. All that DE needs to do is tweak the console patches so it fits a newer model, evertything is already there in the game since it is available on PC. It isnt like PS5 will set a new standard that also effects what is available on a PC, it will still be behind since it is a console with poor cooling among other things.

You're lying again. The PS5's storage and bandwidth leveraging has already permanently changed how games are made, and this includes PC games. 8G of asset bandwidth that doesn't need to rely on CPU timing and state checks is a biblical shift on how gamespaces can be constructed and what kind of assets you can use. Fact. There is no PC equivalent to this level of granularity and control and there won't be for a year and a half until discrete multibidirectional I/O chips are a thing on PC, which won't be on Intel until Alder Lake or on AMD until Zen 3+. Fact.

The cooling on the ps5 has the same thermal draw as a Noctua d12, also fact.

You haven't the faintest #*!%ing idea what you're talking about, and should probably stop making S#&$ up while you're way way behind. Your assumption that DE will retain the PC as lead platform is just that, an assumption.

Edited June 13, 2020 by -Kittens-

[Felsagger]

2 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

You're lying again.

This is why I stopped any form of interaction with him.  

2 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

The PS5's storage and bandwidth leveraging has already permanently changed how games are made, and this includes PC games. 8G of asset bandwidth that doesn't need to rely on CPU timing and state checks is a biblical shift on how gamespaces can be constructed and what kind of assets you can use. Fact. There is no PC equivalent to this level of granularity and control and there won't be for a year and a half until discrete multibidirectional I/O chips are a thing on PC, which won't be on Intel until Alder Lake or on AMD until Zen 3+. Fact.

The cooling on the ps5 has the same thermal draw as a Noctua d12, also fact.

Only few understand my excitement for the PS5. 

 

Game design is changed in ways people can't comprehend. This is why open world scenarios will be the norm. 

 

 

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

On 2020-06-13 at 9:21 AM, akrid45 said:

People need to realize that this is like the second boss you fight in the game which means it's Base stats is balanced around new player damage and not late game player damage and those Base stats scales with levels. So even if it's a level 100 jackal, it will still have less HP than for example a level 100 kela de thaym or a ambulas etc. It's like the boss you fight after captain vor so yeah duh it's not supposed to be very difficult

And yeah it's designed for new players so using void mode to cheese it doesn't really count since new players won't have that 

Even with all that, this boss is still more difficult than most other starchart Bosses so i hope DE keeps this up 👍

Still no reason...just design it with more tricks and variables at higher levels.  Then that content is suitably designed to go the distance....foresight!?