Banshee, the most outdated Warframe of all with only one ability that is worth using; Sonar

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2020-06-20 at 9:21 AM, IceColdHawk said:

You forgot Ash, Atlas, Baruuk, Chroma, Ember, Garuda, Grendel, Trinity and Valkyr

A frame being focused on one thing isn't inherently bad design.  So Atlas, Baruuk, Ember, Garuda, grendel, and valkyr do not belong up here.  I disagree with Trinity's inclusion here as well.  She has 3 very good and very usable abilities.  You can very easily argue that she's dated.  But then you'd have to acknowledge that argument for Banshee as well.

On 2020-06-20 at 9:21 AM, IceColdHawk said:

All those frames could need a rework so much better than Banshee. Either because they barely have a use outside of a niche situation or they're being replaced by gear items/arcanes. Banshee takes some more effort than other frames but she gets stuff done. She can survive using her light CC and allow killing high level enemies for the whole team.  Yes, her 1 and 3 arguably could need some patchup to feel more "up to date" for using but they still get things done. Unlike other frames.

Something being better than something else also isn't inherently a problem.  An operator with the right arcanes has better survivability and cc than Banshee does.  So your own argument works against you here.  No one here is saying Banshee can't get things done.  Every frame can.  The argument is that she's dated.  And since you straight up acknowledge that she could receive some improvements for some things means you're already agreeing with the basic premise of this thread.

[taiiat]

59 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Did not know this!  Do you know how it works?

If it always affects something,  it still seems like a great augment to me, even with the cooldown.    Want lots of coverage fast, with sweet, sweet overlap?  Recast.  Want lots of coverage with minimal energy cost and no recast time that allies can propagate too?  Just let Resonance do its thing.

they simply changed it so that if it would overlap, it just moves it somewhere else. no idea what it would theoretically do if an Enemy was "100% covered".

it's still fairly good overall atm, yes. i want to undo it partly out of principle but also it would need to change from how it is to work with what i rewrote Sonar to be there.

[IceColdHawk]

47 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I disagree with Trinity's inclusion here as well.  She has 3 very good and very usable abilities.

Yeah and all 3 are being replaced by gear items and arcanes. Something you can put on any frame. At least Trinity can insta heal the lures in eidolon fights and make the fight a lot easier. I gotta give her that. Btw, i used to love Trinity. But that was when she mattered and also when self link damage was an interesting mechanic.

47 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

An operator with the right arcanes has better survivability and cc than Banshee does.  So your own argument works against you here

No. There's no single arcane or gear item that allows you to push out millions of damage on enemies for the whole team. Don't you dare think Banshee is being used as a cc frame outside of excavation/mobile defense in which soundquake does a better job and allows afking. Elevate is a great tool for cc-less frames or just as a general arcane for safe void dashing and shutting down enemies on arrival. Not a replacement unlike heal arcanes that make healing abilities obsolete.

47 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And since you straight up acknowledge that she could receive some improvements for some things means you're already agreeing with the basic premise of this thread.

I'm definitely not agreeing with her being the "most outdated" nor do i agree with sonar being her only ability "worth using". You must use all first 3 abilities in tandem for best results. All i'm saying is that 1 and 3 CAN be improved and perhaps her 4 reworked (but that's up for debate). But "can be improved" can be applied to almost every frame. And Banshee works damn fine already. Especially after watching the Warframe partners complaining about the incoming "hard mode" narrowing down weapons choice and bullet spongy enemies. Just more reasons for Banshee to shine.

Edited June 29, 2020 by IceColdHawk

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

To the people disagreeing with op: Their entire point is that Banshee regardless of performance or capability is very out dated in terms of mechanics.  They'd like the kit to be refreshed so it works closer to today's frames on a mechanical level whilst potentially including benefits from newer kits.

I agree with -that- point.  It clearly wasn't the entire point though--another objective was to start a fight.  Mission accomplished, well done, everybody... 

...but not you, Knight Raime.  You really need to get with the program. 😉

 

 

 

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Yeah and all 3 are being replaced by gear items and arcanes. Something you can put on any frame. At least Trinity can insta heal the lures in eidolon fights and make the fight a lot easier. I gotta give her that. Btw, i used to love Trinity. But that was when she mattered and also when self link damage was an interesting mechanic.

Trinity specifically stopped being required because individual frame survival went up just in their base kits alone.  That still doesn't mean trinity is designed poorly.  I'd say it's a good thing that we don't need dedicated supports for high end content anymore.

2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

No. There's no single arcane or gear item that allows you to push out millions of damage on enemies for the whole team. Don't you dare think Banshee is being used as a cc frame outside of excavation/mobile defense in which soundquake does a better job and allows afking. Elevate is a great tool for cc-less frames or just as a general arcane for safe void dashing and shutting down enemies on arrival. Not a replacement unlike heal arcanes that make healing abilities obsolete.

I didn't touch on damage once at all with that part so grats for moving the goal post.

2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I'm definitely not agreeing with her being the "most outdated" nor do i agree with sonar being her only ability "worth using". You must use all first 3 abilities in tandem for best results. All i'm saying is that 1 and 3 CAN be improved and perhaps her 4 reworked (but that's up for debate). But "can be improved" can be applied to almost every frame. And Banshee works damn fine already. Especially after watching the Warframe partners complaining about the incoming "hard mode" narrowing down weapons choice and bullet spongy enemies. Just more reasons for Banshee to shine.

Semantics.  OP wants to update the frame mechanically to current day WF standards.  You agree she can be touched up.  That's literally all I pointed out.

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

I agree with -that- point.  It clearly wasn't the entire point though--another objective was to start a fight.  Mission accomplished, well done, everybody... 

...but not you, Knight Raime.  You really need to get with the program. 😉

 

 

 

 

I definitely haven't read the entire thread so I can't really comment on that.  I disagreed with some of the particular words chosen with the opening post.  I merely felt to comment because the discussion seemed to get away from itself.

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Trinity specifically stopped being required because individual frame survival went up just in their base kits alone.  That still doesn't mean trinity is designed poorly.  I'd say it's a good thing that we don't need dedicated supports for high end content anymore.

 

Her 1 is a heal just like her 4, except worse. Her 2 is an energy pad. Her 3 gives herself some damage reduction (again just like her 4) and some disregardable amount of reflection damage. I wonder what the point even is? Even Wisp replaced Trinity nowadays in eidolon fights.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I didn't touch on damage once at all

Uh..well...yeah, exactly. That is your issue. What do you even want?

4 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

An operator with the right arcanes has better survivability and cc than Banshee does

like why mention this at all when it has no relevance? I wasn't pulling the "Banshee does this and that better than this and that frame" card. Please don't twist my words just to make me look wrong. I simply mentioned some frames are still looking for a reason to be played outside of fashion (Garuda, Ash) or get replaced by gear items (Trinity). So much for Banshee being "outdated". And i'd like to think that Garuda is fairly new as well so...

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

OP wants to update the frame mechanically to current day WF standards.

...i don't know if i really want that. As a further reminder, i'd like to point the Zephyr "rework" out that gave her a new turbulence animation which ultimately resulted in a longer casting time whilst still not being able to recast. Zephyr got her best ability nerfed there which can be fatal if you rely on it as a defensive tool. So much for "current day WF standards"...just look at Protea with her 3s~ long turrets. The most recent and "up to date" frame, in desperate need of buffs (Still!). Reason why Banshee hasn't been updated during all this time is because they didn't have to. She fits the glass cannon/support role very well and actually requires some player input or team support to stay alive but she also rewards it. That's what's balanced in my eyes. No need to turn them into unkillable destruction machines and slap on a lazy damage reduction ability like what seems to be the current new "WF Standard".

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You agree she can be touched up.

Everything can. Doesn't mean they have to be touched up. Turning things too good also ends up in outcries for nerfs. Just making everything "better" isn't actually improving the quality of the game.

DE doesn't have to waste even more time on something that doesn't really need the time especially since after what's been happening (or not happening) in the past updates. Give the attention to those that need it, please.

[dreadley]

A month long discussion started by a player with less than 1% banshee playtime spouting nonsense and everybody else resorting to every kind of fallacy to prove their points... If you don't enjoy playing a favorite frame of endurance runners that have been proven to work with many different builds, maybe it's not because the frame is bad but something else. Entitlement of this community smh.

[SpringRocker]

On 2020-06-10 at 8:31 PM, Deluxe-Chimera said:

Banshee, the most outdated Warframe

Whoa, whoa... Whoa... Now just hold on, She has-

 

On 2020-06-10 at 8:31 PM, Deluxe-Chimera said:

with only one ability that is worth using; Sonar

... Well... Nevermind, that's pretty accurate...

 

Jokes aside, Silence isn't bad. It's just not an ability you can just sit with. You're supposed to be moving around and with Sonar w/ Resonance you're dealing huge amounts of damage.

So she's not a frame that can just sit there spamming abilities, sit-n-spam frames are stupid and need to be tossed back to the drawing board.

[ShortCat]

On 2020-06-29 at 5:42 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Did not know this!  Do you know how it works?  If it rolls a body part that's already affected, is the effect ignored?  Or as long as there are uncovered bodyparts, is Resonance guaranteed to affect one of those? 

When Equinox got released, her Maim interacted with Sonar spots and created a really strong cheese combo. Soo afterwards, DE added cooldown to Resonance, prohibited Sonar spot stacking and I know at some point there was a cap on how many Sonar spots can affect one enemy (this cap is no more). Today, Sonar spots may overlap and stack their effects. However, there is a huge visual discrepancy with Sonar spots - namely, not the whole marked area provides a damage boost.

Another feature many people do not know is, that Sonar does not count as base damage increase and will not increase status procs like Slash or Heat, only the initial hit damage.

Edited June 30, 2020 by ShortCat

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Another feature many people do not know is, that Sonar does not count as base damage increase and will not increase status procs like Slash or Heat, only the initial hit damage.

I've seen occasional bursts of high gas proc damage in the simulacrum.  So erratic that it seemed obviously buggy to me.

[ShortCat]

32 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I've seen occasional bursts of high gas proc damage in the simulacrum.  So erratic that it seemed obviously buggy to me.

Just tested it, seems like Gas & Electricity procs are now considdered "outside" damage sources and can hit Sonar spots for bonus damage (to my knowledge, this wasn't the case before status rework). Slash, Heat and Toxin are not enhanced.

Seems like we found a reason to use Gas again xD

EDIT: Nope, Gas is still bad. Electricity though...

Edited June 30, 2020 by ShortCat

[Tiltskillet]

23 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Just tested it, seems like Gas & Electricity procs are now considdered "outside" damage sources and can hit Sonar spots for bonus damage (to my knowledge, this wasn't the case before status rework). Slash, Heat and Toxin are not enhanced.

Seems like we found a reason to use Gas again xD

EDIT: Nope, Gas is still bad. Electricity though...

Ah, that might explain why my Ceti Lacera does so well with her.  Do the procs just hit torso weakspots, or...?

I've barely ever used it, but Arca might be super fun.

[ShortCat]

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Do the procs just hit torso weakspots, or...?

You still have to hit Sonar spots for enhanced procs. Seems like somebody messed up the math while reworking those status procs for recent status update. Expect fixes SOON^TM

[TheGrimCorsair]

On 2020-06-30 at 3:26 AM, SpringRocker said:

Jokes aside, Silence isn't bad. It's just not an ability you can just sit with. You're supposed to be moving around and with Sonar w/ Resonance you're dealing huge amounts of damage.

Pretty much why her 4 stinks, that's really the only bad skill in her kit. It's not a strong enough CC or clear for the cost of not being able to move and fire, and if it were strong enough, it'd just run roughshod over any mission that isn't nullifiers all the way down.

The only thing her 1/2/3 need is to remove the fact that they immobilize you while grounded.

Her 1 should be an off-hand that doesn't interrupt reloads as it perfectly fills the role of buying space when you need a moment to reload without wanting to give ground.

Her 2 and 3 being upper-body locks would work fine as neither of them need frequent casting.

Well, her 2 needs to be fixed to not stack with itself, or at least not exponentially, but that's already in the works if Scott's comments about exponential multipliers are anything to go by.

[(PSN)I_graviton_I]

Could she do with some tweaks? Yes. But she's not in need of it the most. Chroma and Inaros and maybe Hydroid all need it much more than her.

Her 1 is only good for the memes. I will admit that this could do with a buff or a change. 

Her 2 is incredible 

Her 3 is good CC. What is wrong with deafening all enemies in range to open them up for kills? It's a nice get out of jail free card if you're in trouble and is good for stealth. Range and duration with this ability is great. You can just go around bopping enemies and they can't really do anything about it. 

Her 4 is weak in high end content and needs a buff or a rework but lol at it being "the worst ultimate ability". At least it is still good for clearing waves at Hydron and Helene with Resonating Quake. If you want to see an ability that is even more useless than SQ then look no further than Inaros' sandnado that not only drains energy at an incredible rate but is straight up counterintuitive. All that is doing is making it slower for you or allies to kill enemies by throwing them around. At least RSQ can kill everything on the map when farming XP similar to discharge (again, it just falls off at higher levels).

I'm not saying that she isn't without problems. She is pretty fragile and can die easily at end game if you're not moving around a lot so she's not a brain dead frame in that regard. Her 1 needs changing or tweaking and her 4 needs a buff but her 2 and 3 are fine IMO and she's much more fun to play than Chroma and Inaros even though they have more survivability. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by (PSN)I_graviton_I

[_Anise_]

Banshee rework has my support but seen enough threats complaining about her lackluster abilities to know a rework isn't coming soon.