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Why does everyone want better rewards for hard mode?


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Player were asking for more challenging not better rewards. Or was challenge a reason to tie to rewards?

In theory no one will play a mode with any kind of challenge if there is no extremely great reward at the end of it?

Hard mode is just the same as camping in a mission for a few extra waves or minutes. It's the same exact mission. No one expected better rewards camping in a mission, or did they?

edit: If so, I believe the mode should be called something else, possibly Reward Mode? Next Deluxe Reward Mode in a few months?

Why did DE want Hard Mode in the First place?

Here is the video for why we are getting Hard Mode.

https://youtu.be/rzrAL0NsU8M

How does a game modes get broken in the first place? "By having a high reward tied at the end of the mission after completing the rotation enough times." As you can see, this breaks the mode for those who are really asking for extra rewards, player's farm the reward and never play the mode ever again. This should not be how Hard mode is intended. It needs to be a mode just to challenge what players have in their arsenal.

Edited by kwlingo
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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Quantaminum said:

Imagine spending months designing a tough content,

If DE needs months to program "start mission with level X"...phew. Don't even want to think about it

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Quantaminum said:

Why waste time running a mission that takes more effort to be completed when you can just go to Earth and get the same rewards effortlessly?

Because some people claim more challenge = more fun? If more challenge = more fun why do they need extra rewards? I would totally understand if people were asking for gamemodes with better rewards, but they were asking for more challenge. But what do I know, I'm just an odd ball who plays games for my own entertainment 😄

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1 minute ago, Leyvonne said:

Because some people claim more challenge = more fun? If more challenge = more fun why do they need extra rewards?

I like some challenge as well, but mostly in single player games.

In a game like Warframe, where we run the same missions hundreds of times, how long is it going to take until people get bored of running the same challenging mission with bad rewards, just for the sake of challenge? 10 times? 25 times? 50 times?

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It's the regular progression formula for games, especially challenging games, though Warframe is not one of them.

You get the items you need for the next, more challenging content, you apply your skills, rinse and repeat.

Except in Warframe this is replaced with gearchecks for the most part and higher enemy levels instead of challenging or complex game mechanics.

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1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

Player were asking for more challenging not better rewards. Or was challenge a reason to tie to rewards?

In theory no one will play a mode with any kind of challenge if there is no extremely great reward at the end of it?

Hard mode is just the same as camping in a mission for a few extra waves or minutes. It's the same exact mission. No one expected better rewards camping in a mission, or did they?

We already have historical examples we can use as the reason why: Anthem.

Game issues aside, people always did the easiest stronghold over and over while ignoring the hardest stronghold because the rewards were exactly the same, so people had zero reason to invest more time and effort in the same outcome. This is a cautionary tale about what happens when the hard mode offers the same exact rewards as the easy mode when accounting for time investment.

This means that scaling rewards with difficulty by increasing their odds of acquisition, the amount, and/or by including exclusive rewards is a very low bar. It's as easy as this:

Helene - Normal - 30 waves.

1000 plastids.

Helene - Hard - 30 waves.

1000 plastids.

Results = DE dropped the ball and people will only go to hard mode when they are bored or want to challenge themselves (Which is something they can already do in normal mode) rather than graduating to hard mode so the baseline of the game matches their own progress.

This is precisely the reason why all the loot-based games I've played scale rewards with difficulty and even lock high-level gear behind the higher difficulty settings. Just to name one example, NiOh doesn't let you acquire the rarest possible gear category with the strongest buffs (Ethereal) until you beat the game in the 3rd extra hard mode (Way of the Wise) after beating the core game (Way of the Samurai) and the first 2 extra difficulty settings (Way of the Strong, Way of the Demon).

Also, core stats (Up to 200, from 99 in normal), base guardian spirit level (Up to 60, from 30 in normal), and base gear crafting level (Up to 300, from 150 in normal) are all locked until you beat the game in the hardest difficulty (Way of the NiOh), which is the 4th extra difficulty mode unlocked.

There's also Shadow Warrior 2, in which the game flat-out tells you that you won't get rare/strong gear if you play on a lower difficulty when starting the game.

But there's also Borderlands, Diablo, FFXIV, in which the difficulty and level affect the rarity and stats of your loot, and even the odds for obtaining rare loot. In case of Monster Hunter, some specific monsters are locked behind a higher difficulty mode, so you can't even attempt to farm them unless you change the hunting rank.

Hard mode can not be less efficient than normal mode for the same amount of time investment. It will fail (Population-wise) otherwise.

Edited by Jarriaga
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I think hard mode could easily give us better reasonable rewards to make folks run them.

The first obviouse reward would be more exp and base resources.

But you could have truly rare mod rewards at the end like nightmare missions.

Kuva, endo, potatoes,, skins, cosmetics, forma, ephemeras, universal medalions all rewards worth while.

Why not give us badges. At the end that can be exchanged for things.

The mode can be something really good.

Edited by (PS4)Kakurine2
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6 minutes ago, akrid45 said:

Jesus christ are you guys actually upset that hardmode will have better rewards? 

Like... BRUH 

I'm actually expecting quite a bit of backlash when implemented. You'll see players arguing that they don't want to feel like they are forced to play in hard mode for the rewards because they like to have a chill time with WF and they can't ignore the rewards. They'll also argue that hard mode is toxic for the game because it will breed elitism and hurt the power fantasy feel by indirectly nerfing the player a bit.  

Edited by Jarriaga
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I dont know.. why does anyone want to get paid more for doing a better job ? 

Effort should = Reward... 

Unfortunately its not always that simple... simply because Warframe at base... doesn't place emphasis on skill... so hard mode isnt Really Hard Mode... its just another Tier of Gear Checks. And that means people who want to get rewarded for playing Hard Mode are actually Wanting to Get Reward simply because they have better equipment than everyone else...

Thats what the Commotion is all about... 

Can DE make a game that actually tests player skill Without it excluding players simly because they havent got the MR to use Rubico Prime yet ?

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All I want is hard mode not to have stuff locked behind it, like progression stuff..

All hard mode will do is tighten the meta to a handful of weapons and frames, which then people complain how the game gets stale, basically running inaros etc all the time.

Because I'm sure as hell will try my best to ignore it and enjoy the diversity we have now, rather than being forced to do meta stuff

Even if it's just cosmetics I'll ignore it, but don't lock progression behind it.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Quantaminum said:

Sure, there are some odd balls who like running missions just for their own entertainment, regardless of rewards, but that's a very small % of the playerbase.

I get what you’re saying here, but why are you playing this game if you don’t enjoy the missions? For me, hard mode is where I want to go to actually play the game. Everything else can be for rewards but I don’t really care about the hard mode rewards because that’s where I’m gonna go just to play.

That being said I do understand why rewards should scale with difficulty, I just personally don’t care if they’re that good in WF. I’m probably an outlier though.

Edited by (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face
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1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

Player were asking for more challenging not better rewards. Or was challenge a reason to tie to rewards?

In theory no one will play a mode with any kind of challenge if there is no extremely great reward at the end of it?

Hard mode is just the same as camping in a mission for a few extra waves or minutes. It's the same exact mission. No one expected better rewards camping in a mission, or did they?

Do you work, as in have a job? Do you get paid for your time? Do you get paid the same for two days of work as you do for one?

 

Part of playing a game at the prize at the end. The expected reward for greater effort is a better prize.

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I generally don't go to General Discussions, but this one caught my eye from the forum hub.

 

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Results = DE dropped the ball and people will only go to hard mode when they are bored or want to challenge themselves (Which is something they can already do in normal mode) rather than graduating to hard mode so the baseline of the game matches their own progress.

I wouldn't consider that dropping the ball. Far from it - I would consider this doing difficulty right. The point of optional difficulty settings is to allow everyone to play at the difficulty they're comfortable with and enjoy running. The goal of difficulty settings is not to "graduate" all players to the hardest difficulty setting in the game. I'd argue the goal is to let players sit somewhere in the middle, with some playing lower and some playing harder.

If the only reason players have to go to Hard Mode is for the difficulty, then I'd consider that a job well done. Those who enjoy fighting harder enemies will do so, those who don't won't. That's a win/win as far as I'm concerned.

  

4 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I dont know.. why does anyone want to get paid more for doing a better job ? 

Warframe's not a job, though. It's entertainment. We don't get paid to play this game - not outside of the Secondary Market anyway. We, in fact, pay to play the game - that's its business model. When you over-reward hard modes, what you end up doing is making people feel pressured to play difficulty settings they don't enjoy just for the sake of rewards. I already have a job. I'm not looking for a second one.

Edited by Steel_Rook
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This circular argument has existed since the invention of GaaS games.

In this case, if the more challenging modes offer rewards that continue to add to powercreep, it will not do anything to fix the issue of players wanting more challenging content, becuse the hamster wheel will turn in a couple days and those players will be right back where they started, with too much power for the content.

If, in this case, these modes do not have subjectively better rewards, perhaps easier ways to get rare things or whatever, then there will be players that call them useless, because they are only focused on rewards, not the actual challenge of gameplay.

So, like this circular argument always goes, there is no way on earth for a game company to always please both of these camps.

The circular argument will never end, because there are players in both camps that refuse to change.

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1 hour ago, kwlingo said:

Player were asking for more challenging not better rewards. Or was challenge a reason to tie to rewards?

In theory no one will play a mode with any kind of challenge if there is no extremely great reward at the end of it?

Hard mode is just the same as camping in a mission for a few extra waves or minutes. It's the same exact mission. No one expected better rewards camping in a mission, or did they?

Translation: Someone wants the same rewards for less effort. Entitlement...its what's for dinner!

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Just now, Steel_Rook said:

I wouldn't consider that dropping the ball. Far from it - I would consider this doing difficulty right. The point of optional difficulty settings is to allow everyone to play at the difficulty they're comfortable with and enjoy running. The goal of difficulty settings is not to "graduate" all players to the hardest difficulty setting in the game. I'd argue the goal is to let players sit somewhere in the middle, with some playing lower and some playing harder.

That's not how loot-based games work though. Again: Anthem's most difficult stronghold is a testament to that.

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Because playing at a higher level should inherently come with greater rewards. That's just basic game design. Except that in Warframe, it doesnt...

At present time, there is literally absolutely no reason to have a very strong setup. In fact, the game actively punishes you for attempting to do more difficult content if your trying to actively accomplish something. Why bother farming a difficult or long map when you can get literally the exact same thing on short/easy maps. I honestly see this as the biggest problem with Warframe. Nothing pushes you to do better, when any janky half baked setup can do 98% of the content in the game. Hell, it's so bad most dont even learn the actual mechanics and get confused when a mission requires something more than just clicking on enemies.

Right now, Warframe is like being permanently stuck in the starting newb zone with some places/things being like that one high level mob that has no reason to be there and can be completely ignored unless it's got something you want. And frankly at this point, many players have been around long enough that they're 1 shotting the strongest things the game can throw at them and insta gibbing entire boss phases that were meant for groups. But they still stay there with the brain dead easy mobs, and bosses that offer no challenge because they get the exact same rewards for smashing lvl 15 grunts as they do lvl 150, except those lvl 150's actually offer some opposition so why bother. Why fight lvl 150's when you can delete entire maps of lvl 15's with a micro fraction of the effort, and get MORE for doing just that. 

The same will be if hard mode doesnt offer better reward drops and rates. It'll be an interesting diversion sure, I'd probably still do it because deleting rooms of lvl 100's is more satisfying than deleting rooms of lvl 25's... But people who have worked hard to make good frames and builds should be rewarded appropriately for doing so, and have something to apply those frames in that isnt just an insult to their time. 

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2 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Warframe's not a job, though. It's entertainment. We don't get paid to play this game - not outside of the Secondary Market anyway. We, in fact, pay to play the game - that's its business model. When you over-reward hard modes, what you end up doing is making people feel pressured to play difficulty settings they don't enjoy just for the sake of rewards. I already have a job. I'm not looking for a second one.

You do realise that DIfficulty and Entertainment are not Mutually Exclusive ? Infact... in Video Game's specifically... the idea is to try and make these things work together... Difficulty can Improve the Player's Experience with a Game... The Problem is Warframe doesn't have the Foundation to come close to anything resembling this Experience 😞

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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That's not how loot-based games work though. Again: Anthem's most difficult stronghold is a testament to that.

Citing Anthem in general is unconvincing to me. Even if that's how loot-based games work (and that's something you'll need to demonstrate more than just asserting it), this says nothing to whether said loot-based games work WELL. I personally tend to find that aspect of loot-based games to be one of their more irritating aspects, because it fundamentally undermines the core gameplay loop for the sake of feeding a Skinner box. That's not healthy for one's long-term experience with a product.

 

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

You do realise that DIfficulty and Entertainment are not Mutually Exclusive ? Infact... in Video Game's specifically... the idea is to try and make these things work together... Difficulty can Improve the Player's Experience with a Game... The Problem is Warframe doesn't have the Foundation to come close to anything resembling this Experience 😞

Difficulty can improve the player's experience, absolutely. I've seen enough people ask for "hard mode" to know as much. It depends on the person, however, and I can tell you from experience that difficulty can drastically degrade a player's experience, as well. Over-rewarding Hard Mode shifts status quo and teaches players that they're "supposed" to play Hard Mode whether they enjoy it or not. A lot of people will, as a result burning themselves on it. I personally prefer to make that a choice. If you want high difficulty, run high difficulty. If you don't want high difficulty, you can still run standard content without feeling like you're missing out. Again, everybody wins.

And if a player finds themselves wanting rewards quickly but not wanting to go through the slower pace of difficult content - I'd argue that player doesn't actually enjoy difficult content. That player has, in all likelihood, been conditioned to expect higher rewards from difficult content because "that's how loot-based games work" and isn't making decisions from the perspective of entertainment value at all. Maybe I'm jaded from playing MMOs for too long, but the rat race isn't worth it. In any of 'em.

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3 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

And if a player finds themselves wanting rewards quickly but not wanting to go through the slower pace of difficult content - I'd argue that player doesn't actually enjoy difficult content. That player has, in all likelihood, been conditioned to expect higher rewards from difficult content because "that's how loot-based games work" and isn't making decisions from the perspective of entertainment value at all. Maybe I'm jaded from playing MMOs for too long, but the rat race isn't worth it. In any of 'em.

Couldn’t agree with you more.

Don’t have anything else to add but I know you’re going to get shredded for this take so I just wanted to let you know that I will stand with you in solidarity.

Edited by (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face
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2 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Difficulty can improve the player's experience, absolutely. I've seen enough people ask for "hard mode" to know as much. It depends on the person, however, and I can tell you from experience that difficulty can drastically degrade a player's experience, as well. Over-rewarding Hard Mode shifts status quo and teaches players that they're "supposed" to play Hard Mode whether they enjoy it or not. A lot of people will, as a result burning themselves on it. I personally prefer to make that a choice. If you want high difficulty, run high difficulty. If you don't want high difficulty, you can still run standard content without feeling like you're missing out. Again, everybody wins.

And if a player finds themselves wanting rewards quickly but not wanting to go through the slower pace of difficult content - I'd argue that player doesn't actually enjoy difficult content. That player has, in all likelihood, been conditioned to expect higher rewards from difficult content because "that's how loot-based games work" and isn't making decisions from the perspective of entertainment value at all. Maybe I'm jaded from playing MMOs for too long, but the rat race isn't worth it. In any of 'em.

THis is One of those Rare Instances where I completely Agree with everthing someone says... and have nothing to add myself :O !!!

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