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Why does everyone want better rewards for hard mode?


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3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Not "new game mods" but shortcut. The main reason for the upcoming Hard modes coming out is mainly for people that dont have enough time anymore because of real life duties to one shot low level ennemies for hours just to get to high level enemies to have fun.

 

Im not sure if the fun factor is a valid reason (on it's own) to release a hardmode.  Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree that harder content would certainly improve the fun factor for a lot of players, myself included; but with no additional incentives, it has very little replay value. There are lots of games in the market that have their own version of hardmode, where there are no extra rewards, the only difference is the difficulty, and they had a great reception from the players; but almost all of those games are mostly singleplayer, like DmC, Dead Space, Doom, Dark Souls (without the invasions), etc. You win the game on a normal setting, and then you play it again with higher difficulty for the fun and glory... one more time, or two, maybe three in most cases; and that's it. That's not an issue on singleplayer games, but on GaaS games such as warframe, where player retention is an important factor, spending development time on content that has little replay value makes no sense. Also, I agree with something that was mentioned a bit earlier: the amount of players that would regularly play hardmode just for the fun would be a very small part of the community. So, making a gamemode within a live service game, with little replay value and aimed to a minority of the playerbase makes even less sense to me.

Edited by General-Pacman
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On 2020-06-11 at 11:33 AM, kwlingo said:

Player were asking for more challenging not better rewards. Or was challenge a reason to tie to rewards?

In theory no one will play a mode with any kind of challenge if there is no extremely great reward at the end of it?

Hard mode is just the same as camping in a mission for a few extra waves or minutes. It's the same exact mission. No one expected better rewards camping in a mission, or did they?

edit: If so, I believe the mode should be called something else, possibly Reward Mode? Next Deluxe Reward Mode in a few months?

Why did DE want Hard Mode in the First place?

Here is the video for why we are getting Hard Mode.

https://youtu.be/rzrAL0NsU8M

 

Well dunno about you  but the reward system in this game is kinda wack and boring so... and in most games  More challenging=Better rewards

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4 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

So I'm lost- what "rewards for their effort" are people really expecting here? 

New weapons and mods? 

Well they're obviously not going to give those, the most I want is just more of the resources we would get in normal missions and I'm pretty sure that's going to be it I don't know why some people are expecting more than that. They said that there's going to be some decorations if you beat the whole thing as well

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On 2020-06-11 at 12:02 PM, Leyvonne said:

Because some people claim more challenge = more fun? If more challenge = more fun why do they need extra rewards? I would totally understand if people were asking for gamemodes with better rewards, but they were asking for more challenge. But what do I know, I'm just an odd ball who plays games for my own entertainment 😄

there is 2 groups, the ones that think More challenge = more fun and also the ones that think More challenge=More rewards, so why not both ? 

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2 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

I say that the small minority is the ones that play only for fun.Everyone plays for fun in the big picture.Even competitive gamers have fun, it's just that their fun is to win.
The point is the only part is for the minority and even they have a profit - I've seen many videos, posts, screenshot with mission times, kill etc etc to show to others.
It is the same thing and if you can't understand that you just want to test your keyboard.

Again, you make a claim with nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

There are simply no accurate numbers to back up your claim.

Just because there are loud people on the Internet saying something, does not make them a majority.

In my life, I have encountered just as many people, if not more, that play games for fun and relaxation as I have met those that only play for rewards and the feeling of advancement. Only one GaaS game friend has ever even mentioned wanting to 'progress' during each play session.

So, my anecdotal evidence counter balances yours.

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6 minutes ago, Koga. said:

there is 2 groups, the ones that think More challenge = more fun and also the ones that think More challenge=More rewards, so why not both ? 

If it was really that simple, don't you think all GaaS games would already be doing it?

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Just now, Zimzala said:

If it was really that simple, don't you think all GaaS games would already be doing it?

Well, i call that a missed opportunity 

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1 minute ago, Zimzala said:

If it was really that simple, don't you think all GaaS games would already be doing it?

You are making it sound as if this wasn't the industry standard. Im pretty sure most MMOS and GaaS make this.

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Just now, General-Pacman said:

You are making it sound as if this wasn't the industry standard. Im pretty sure most MMOS and GaaS make this.

They might try to do this, but I do not see (m)any suceeding, I see these exact same arguments on every GaaS game forum I visit.

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18 minutes ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

Well they're obviously not going to give those, the most I want is just more of the resources we would get in normal missions and I'm pretty sure that's going to be it I don't know why some people are expecting more than that. They said that there's going to be some decorations if you beat the whole thing as well

Yeah, that and more affinity is all I expect... But as a vet, I don't consider these as"more rewards". 

If people are expecting much more than that and maybe refined relics, they are hyping themselves up to be disappointed. 

I don't think it matters how many people play it. I don't think the devs intend for it to be a mode that everyone graduates to. 

Completionist that hate difficulty are going to have a hard time though. I still predict were going to get a bunch of complaints about hard mode being "hard". But of course they wont use those words. It'll be things like "it's cheesy, not hard. Nerf the enemies."

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8 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

They might try to do this, but I do not see (m)any suceeding, I see these exact same arguments on every GaaS game forum I visit.

Im not sure I follow. If I think of the most popular online games right now, specially mmos and mobas, all of them make exactly this. Take WoW, for example. You can't get the highest level PvE gear without engaging with the hardest content in the game (dungeons and raids), and the difficulty of those is way higher than anything you may encounter by simply roaming around in the world. Another example is League of Legends; if you want to get a Challenger badge at the end of a season, you will certainly not be able to do so by only playing casual matches; you have to put quite an amount of effort and play against the most skilled players. Those two may a bit of an extreme example, but they are an accurate  description of what most games in those genres tend to do; and WoW has been using the exact same formula for over 15 years, so I think it actually works for them.

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Il y a 3 heures, Synpai a dit :

Yes, having an easy way to get to higher level content is great, but they could really test the waters with some nice reactionary change of pace.

I also wonder what Hard Modes are gonna do for the already high level content....do we get hard mode sorties, arbitrations, ESO? See where the can of worms starts to spiral. Without proper preparation, you'll end up giving people level 180 base content at the hardest difficulty then say go back to doing level 60 arbitrations when they're finished.

True 😊 and me too, I'm curious. The 50-100 sortie will obviously stay for everyone but I think they will get upgraded in HM but maybe later on when they finished testing it with the solar map.

Citation

 

I say Imagine if they added a variety of arbitration drones to the spawn system of all hard missions:
Regular Drone: Requires weapon to damage
Bulwark Drone: Requires ability to damage
Kuva Drone: Requires CC to be damaged (Void blast/dash at minimum).
Sentient Drone: Requires void damage (Amp) to destroy (Don't even get me started on Operator/amp progression or lack thereof)

This is more than just the "Don't use abilities X.D." meta that current arbitrations forms where exalted/CC frames are just smacked in the face and players tank + AOE/Melee to win. It could even get more varied just from the base where say eximus enemies take significantly reduced damage from all but one damage type that can be reset with void damage (like a mini profit taker mechanic so we actually use MORE THAN ONE WEAPON/element to be efficient or prepare with team-play).

Then the rare boss spawns could be guaranteed and more frequent in the harder missions: G3, Zanuka, Stalker, Juggernaut etc.

Could also mix in uniques like Wolf, Liches, Warframe Specteres (after junction clears)

 

Very interesting ideas ! That would add more reactivity, stress situations and reflexes gameplay that some players here suggested and asked for. 

Thank you ❤️ It was a nice and interesting lecture.

il y a une heure, General-Pacman a dit :
Im not sure if the fun factor is a valid reason (on it's own) to release a hardmode. 

You mean, if it's worth it just for that only one reason ?  Well I can understand what you mean if that's the case, but there's a lot to do in the game and things to farm and new seasonly rewards to get already. Am I wrong If I say that each kind of player have their own modes to be satisfied with right now exept the ones that progression stopped ?

Citation

Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree that harder content would certainly improve the fun factor for a lot of players, myself included; but with no additional incentives, it has very little replay value. There are lots of games in the market that have their own version of hardmode, where there are no extra rewards, the only difference is the difficulty, and they had a great reception from the players; but almost all of those games are mostly singleplayer, like DmC, Dead Space, Doom, Dark Souls (without the invasions), etc. You win the game on a normal setting, and then you play it again with higher difficulty for the fun and glory... one more time, or two, maybe three in most cases; and that's it. That's not an issue on singleplayer games, but on GaaS games such as warframe, where player retention is an important factor, spending development time on content that has little replay value makes no sense. Also, I agree with something that was mentioned a bit earlier: the amount of players that would regularly play hardmode just for the fun would be a very small part of the community. So, making a gamemode within a live service game, with little replay value and aimed to a minority of the playerbase makes even less sense to me.

Just because it's a small part of the community, we dont have the right to have fun and our own thing in a corner, is that it ? As Founders we already get the "we dont need you anymore so keep quiet and dont ask for anything else or quit the game" and now if we stay passionate and play we get this: You are a minority, shut up you cant have fun anymore, just leave 😕 damn..  Really ?

People can still come join us in UHM tho, we just ask that they dont complain or ruin it.

About singleplayer games, what I always disliked about singleplayer games of nowadays is that you pay a big price a game that you finish in about 30 hours or even 15, I even heard a recent resident evil had like 10h or less ? While there are singleplayer games that, for the same big price, are unlimited. How ? Just one simple word: MODS. Choices are so infinite just by making it mod compatible. Some game makers refuses to put more work to make it compatible and it's really too bad cause some games would be even great with them and would would spend big price and be satisfied just knowing it's wayyy worth it. 

So how about this as suggestions ? How about the possibility of HM and UHM being modable, kinda like Simulacrum ? 

Like: 

- Magnetic Storm event : ON 

- Cosmic Storm event : OFF

- Number of ennemies multiplicator : x3

- No mods : OFF

- Melee only : OFF

and so on ? But of course, stil no more rewards since it would be game broker. 

I'm not too sure about the idea but what you guys think, would you finally find it worth it ?

Edited by Sven_Lazar
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9 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

Im not sure I follow. If I think of the most popular online games right now, specially mmos and mobas, all of them make exactly this. Take WoW, for example. You can't get the highest level PvE gear without engaging with the hardest content in the game (dungeons and raids), and the difficulty of those is way higher than anything you may encounter by simply roaming around in the world. Another example is League of Legends; if you want to get a Challenger badge at the end of a season, you will certainly not be able to do so by only playing casual matches; you have to put quite an amount of effort and play against the most skilled players. Those two may a bit of an extreme example, but they are an accurate  description of what most games in those genres tend to do; and WoW has been using the exact same formula for over 15 years, so I think it actually works for them.

So those games are able to cater equally to the the players that just want to relax and have fun as well as those that want a challenge, and no one complains on either end of the spectrum that things are too hard or not hard enough?

Lets not even talk about budgets and resources and why I say (m)any, lets just ask that question...do they really please the whole rainbow?

I don't enjoy either game, have not played WoW is years, never tried LoL, not my thing.

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29 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

So those games are able to cater equally to the the players that just want to relax and have fun as well as those that want a challenge, and no one complains on either end of the spectrum that things are too hard or not hard enough?

Lets not even talk about budgets and resources and why I say (m)any, lets just ask that question...do they really please the whole rainbow?

I don't enjoy either game, have not played WoW is years, never tried LoL, not my thing.

I obviously can't give you a valid answer to that, since im only a player with no access to those metrics; the best I can do is give you my personal experience:
I mentioned WoW mainly because I started playing it a couple of months ago, and im having a blast with it. The amount of content that can be played casually is INSANE. I only have two characters, none of them max leveled, and In two months of casual gameplay I feel like I barely scratched the surface; there are lots of quests to play, low-level dungeons to engage with, and tons  of achievements, cosmetics and mounts that can be obtained without being a hardcore player. And there is also a big chunk of challenging endgame content, with special rewards, fully available to  whoever wants to push their gameplay experience even further beyond.
Regarding League of Legends, I haven't played it in quite a long time; I was even more of a casual there, and still had lots of fun. I played that game for around 2 years, and never played a single ranked match. I mostly played just for the lols (no pun intended) and to collect the different characters, and that's it. So, if you ask me, I do feel like those  games  cater to different kinds of players, which is exactly what I feel we are missing here.

Now, whether or not people complain about things being too easy or too hard there...  I cannot really tell, since I never engaged in forums or gaming communities as much as i do here, in Warframe; but it surely happened, and it's inevitable, because as much as a game tries, they will never be able to please every single player. BUT! I feel like those games have done a lot more in that area than Warframe. 

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3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

 The two real "thought schools" here would be: Players that just need challenge with no rewards to just have fun and the ones that needs rewards to have fun. 

Players play hard games for the reward of testing their skills and dexterity. This is why you have games like Horizon Zero Dawn, Dark Souls, Demon Souls, Blood Borne and Sekiro among other games. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

And even if you dont want to admit it, one of them is in the wrong. If a "thought school" makes you rush something fun to then ruin it and make you stop playing it, like players that rushed the content to then quit soon after, then it is certainly a wrong one.

Intrinsic and extrinsic happens almost in every game. Rushing is a culture in gaming known as time runs. Many players dedicate time to post their 'world records'. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

You can live your life while ignoring competition because competition is a choice and it grows ego too. Plus competition is not a good thing IMO, there are multiples cases where competition caused harms, jealousy and even murder because it grew ego into madness and made people insane, doing stupid things or change character. Life is way more pleasant without competition, I recommend doing without it.

Disagree. Competition keeps the market improving. Competition keeps the production of knowledge. Competition happens in nature. Competition measures performance. You can't get rid of the concept. It happens in video games too even in War Frame. 

What you seek is a pipe dream. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

If reward would be actually tied to effort, people that works harder than others should be paid more but it's not the case but some people dont care about that because they have something that goes over this, and it's what a few people have, passion. Society's logic is a really bad exemple to refer to.

Reward is tied to effort always. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

The purpose of games is to have fun, not to follow what society expects or forces you to do. If you choose to play by the "logical way of thinking" of others it's your choice but dont tell others how they are supposed to have fun. The "play meta or leave the group" is an exemple of that "logical way" of yours, society wants you to play meta just because it's how they play and they dont want something different that could make them feel less "special", and that's another problem that competition is causing. 

For some people competition is fun and fundamental part of learning. 

 

Your visions about your personal ideal world are incompatible with the real world. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

An exemple: I used to hunt eidolons with my excalibur and when joining a game, I would many times encounter "optimal meta" players saying "LOL Exca ? Lol that's stupid/ it's useless or "leave the group plz" on my arrival, then they would all die, one after the other, where I had to finish Hydro alone because time was limited and couldnt revive them anymore. Then there was a silence at the end and they left without saying "thank you for revives" or finishing the quest... Not like I did it for it but it's only good manners when I wasnt even being toxic back on them and just ignored the insults.

Theorem: Basic meta are Trinity, Volt, Chroma, Harrow for Eidolon hunting. There are other frames but the best tier for 5x3 are that. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

It's not the gear that's important guys, it's your build, open mind and capacity to adapt, so dont lose that capacity with being narrow-minded or follow what society tells you how to have fun folks.    

Gear refers to all possible builds. Part of your gear are the mods. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

You contradict yourself from what you say above and here talking about pillars of society and their "logical way of thinking" that has to be followed and then saying that individuals are not supposed to dictate others when you tries to convince me that people have to make efforts and competition to have fun.

Fun is subjective but the term is related with learning. Competition teaches optimization, a particular type of learning. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

For the rest, that was my point from start. if people that just wants rewards farm where there already have enough, people that just want challenge without more rewards play Hard and Ultra and people who seek competition farm conclave, then there shouldnt be any complaints, anyone has their place to be and if they want to change places they are welcome but without complains. It's not a matter of dictating, but opening eyes and reasoning on what they really want.

Rewards is related to effort despite if you like it or not. This is how the world is. The idea that you have about the world is your fantasy. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

 

Reference that you actually didnt put right away like I did with my "not on my watch" reference (that's how you make funny references), you didn't even quoted the sentence to make it clear it was one and you actually said "I will destroy you so hard" when the hobbit reference says "I will destroy you" without the "so hard" wich you added it out of madness and then searched a "I will destroy you so hard" video on google to try to make it like you actually kept your calm and were trying to be funny while you only looked to attack me. Nice try tho ^^ 

You missed the reference.  

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Time to stop acting all calm and innocent when you clearly lost your calm and are in the wrong friend, that was clearly personnal attack and toxicity 

Again, you missed the reference. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Friend, we are talking about having fun and warframe, not science. I understand that your competition side wants to prove you are smarter than everyone else or whatever but avoid going off the road that much or changing subject please. 

I'm not your friend. I'm a random player. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

The fact that you start by calling them "nubs" or "noobs" says a lot about you and what you really think about them. Making them feel like noobs by calling them like that is very bad and lower them the same way you tried to lower me before.

A name widely known by the gaming community that denotes players who are beginners. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

So... you claim that I'm a kid now ? I guess that was the next thing on the list to lower me again I guess 😞 

Adults have the initiative to search and do their research. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

 

But you did even if you had the choice to be mature, if you didnt, that means you cant. Plus, you keep being passively toxic towards me every time when I just find something we can agree on but I guess being toxic is the way your respond to a question that you dont like or feel inapt to answer. Ok 😕 I will stop putting question marks then if it makes you uncomfortable and toxic. At least you admit that you were, wich is a good start. Thank you for that (no to provoke, just encouraging you to keep that way).

Wrong use of the term 'toxic'. Someone is toxic when there are insults, humiliation or mockery towards the other person intelligence, mental disability, ethnicity or age among many other personal aspects. 

The discussion here is about rewards tied to effort. 

3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

So... quoting is offensive now ? Quoting post we find interesting because we come late after a break or other obligations makes it more clear to who we are talking with and for other people to understand our arguments. Just stop being offended by everything everytime... That's not mature at all. And of course we blame you for for being toxic, no one forces you to be. 😞  

I dont drink alcool, it's really bad for the body and mind so avoid claiming that I want it, thank you. 🙂

Well... again, That's what a forum is for... If you can't help being offended and toxic, I would recommend seeking for people specialised in giving advices on how to live a more peaceful life. Yoga is nice, I recommend it.  

"put me in my place" ? Wow, that's toxic 😕 Where is my place ? The thrash ? I'm asking knowing you wont be honest on that. 

And I never asked you to be toxic either. Just drink a cup of tea friend. 

I certainly writes a lot (because I like writing) but nothing wrong with that, nothing prohibit me from quoting multiple post and I'm dont mind being here 🙂 and never complained about it, you do and no one forces you to stay 😕  I saw courageous people, open minded people and people trying to find answers. That's what I like about forum depsite trolls or toxicity. 

Your lack of self-confidence is. What about all the effort talk you had previously ? It's just a street fighter game I'm sure you can do it. go for it !

Yeah.. but when someone claim to be a "wise man", it's not being wise but it's being arrogant. (no offense) You dont just decide that by yourself one day, others do while you prove it and in this case, get mad or toxic over a forum dosnt help.

Plus mountains rocks are not statics, sometimes they fall letting you climb it. You can see these falling rocks as opportunities and maybe one day you will have one to succeed.

 Then dont claim knowing how much time i pass on games or if I didnt dedicated enough time on something ^^

 

This has nothing to do with the discussion of the topic. 

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Il y a 2 heures, Felsagger a dit :

Disagree. Competition keeps the market improving. Competition keeps the production of knowledge. Competition happens in nature. Competition measures performance. You can't get rid of the concept. It happens in video games too even in War Frame. 

Passion does the same with less risks.

Citation

What you seek is a pipe dream.

I said that I recommend it so who said I was looking for it ? I'm living it :satisfied: If it's a dream for you I take that as a compliment. I wish you can find the same hapiness too one day friend. 

Citation

For some people competition is fun and fundamental part of learning. 

I understood that point but it's still not the optimal way of being happy or making the others around you happy too. You get a lot more of frustration and unsatisfying feeling from competition than without it. Just saying that a life without trying to compete is more fun and peaceful. Thats my point.

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Your visions about your personal ideal world are incompatible with the real world. 

Because of people that think it's impossible.

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Basic meta are Trinity, Volt, Chroma, Harrow for Eidolon hunting. There are other frames but the best tier for 5x3 are that.

You didnt get what I was talking about. ^^ My point was that people dont have to play meta if they dont want to or prefer playing other frames and should ignore people that make fun of them playing differently. People trying to dictate what and how other players should play in Warframe just because it's meta, are in the wong.  I know the meta, that's not the matter but I appreciate the intention of helping 😉 maybe it will serve to others here. Unless it was another way to moke me ?

Citation

Fun is subjective but the term is related with learning. Competition teaches optimization, a particular type of learning. 

Citation

Rewards is related to effort despite if you like it or not. This is how the world is. The idea that you have about the world is your fantasy.

Citation

Reward is tied to effort always.

Repeating the same thing again and again without argumenting after I do wont make it a truth. It's what is called delusion (no offense).

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I'm not your friend. I'm a random player.

That's toxic attitude. I was just trying to calm you by being friendly but fine, random player. 😕

Citation

A name widely known by the gaming community that denotes players who are beginners.

 But used in the wrong way. The right way is actually new players, beginners" or even newbie wich are not offensive names for them. "Noobs" or "nubs" are immature and pejorative words and a form of denigration. You should know that as a "scientist".

Il y a 2 heures, Felsagger a dit :

Adults have the initiative to search and do their research. 

Il y a 2 heures, Felsagger a dit :

Wrong use of the term 'toxic'. Someone is toxic when there are insults, humiliation or mockery towards the other person intelligence, mental disability, ethnicity or age among many other personal aspects. 

Wich is exactly what you are doing while treating me like a kid, or trying to moke me with a hobbit reference telling me "you dont even know the reference multiple times or that "I can't do research" and so on just to try to humiliate me... Well at least, we both agree that you are toxic then. We make progress 😄 You can try to provoke me but I'm too happy in life for that to work ^^ 

Citation

The discussion here is about rewards tied to effort. This has nothing to do with the discussion of the topic.

Stealing this argument from me just to save face is shameful man 😞 Plus, coming from someone who made a single post with just a hobbit reference to threathen and make fun of me doesnt make it convincing. If you have no more arguments and refuse to admit it, just stop friend, it dosnt affect me anyway since I proved my points with arguments, I'm just saying that for you since you are just being ridiculous and making a fool of yourself in front of everyone here at this point but if there's more toxicity from you, you will get ignored and judged as not worth of attention anymore. 😕 

Coming back to the subject. Let's see what the shortcut Hard modes will be. Hope it wont be a disapointment. 😞  

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2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Yeah, that and more affinity is all I expect... But as a vet, I don't consider these as"more rewards". 

If people are expecting much more than that and maybe refined relics, they are hyping themselves up to be disappointed. 

Exactly my point. It's the same as doing long endurance runs. Player just want the difficulty not the reward. 

I don't know why this is so hard to grasp?

The mode doesn't mean anyone needs to play it but just gives player a way to test out weapons and frames at higher levels quicker without spending hours to get to the difficulty level they are seeking.

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Citation

Yeah, that and more affinity is all I expect... But as a vet, I don't consider these as"more rewards". 

If people are expecting much more than that and maybe refined relics, they are hyping themselves up to be disappointed. 

 

il y a 7 minutes, kwlingo a dit :

Yeah, that and more affinity is all I expect... But as a vet, I don't consider these as"more rewards". 

If people are expecting much more than that and maybe refined relics, they are hyping themselves up to be disappointed. 

Same here. I agree to these too. 🙂 

Edited by Sven_Lazar
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2 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

-snipped down to save space-

The scenario I mentioned previously where people are after the loot first and the difficulty second. If people are after the loot they will not run the harder mode if it rewards the same since it will be less efficient time vs reward. Having higher loot yield in harder modes will attract those players at all times instead of having them go do trivial content to have a better time vs reward ratio when they are actively farming specific loot. I mean, why would I ever start a +100 Kuva Survival if my priority is the kuva and the extra 100 levels dont provide me more per life support tower? The risk is drastically higher for the type of missions since one false move will have the siphon blown up. Now if the yield at that level was double it would be worth since you'd be able to lose a few and still end up the same as a normal kuva survival mission. Same deal if people do Kuva Disruption, just a demo kill might only take a few seconds longer, but if they dont reward more it will be a net loss in the end since the seconds eventually add up for each rotation that goes by.

But it is backwards thinking. You think it should be without rewards just so some people wont whine because they cant handle it? So you want two minorities of the community to control what the majority (us that want both challenge and appropriate loot like in all other arpgs, mmos etc.). You can play the "hero" card all you want and claim you want to protect those that may whine, but in the end it is counter productive for DE to release content used by a clique of players, where part of that clique aswell as others have demanded scaling loot for endless missions over many many many years already. There is a reason some of us ignore endless currently, since it just isnt efficient to go on. Those of us that come from other arpgs are used to optimizing builds to farm more effectively in higher content that is more challenging and rewarding. That has been a thing since D2.

No you were not the ones. There are more sides that have asked for higher content. You arent the ones that have asked for shortcuts for endless, several of us have asked for "elite" star chart missions. HM/UHM isnt just about endless missions. And where the flark do you get the idea that I see it as forced, when the hek did I ever imply that? Never.

And no UHM doesnt exsist, nor will the new UHM really be it either since it is just the same mobs, the same snooze approach with just higher levels. To call it UHM or HM it should have special mutators to it, kinda like the different vault hunter modes in BL2, or how normal and heroic dungeons in WoW have different mechanics for bosses etc. And again, this isnt endless exclusive either.

You wrote mindless in one of your other posts. Or if it was brainwashed. SSDD in the end, both imply those that think different from you are feeble minded.

If you find fun in WF missions without rewards then you must be very easy to entertain. I guess that goes for any hack n slash game though.

How is that answer unrealistic. We were raised that way, simple as that. Though my parents wouldnt have told me or my brother to stop playing right this instant eitherway if we were at an arcade hall unless it was absolute emergency, they'd just go do something else while we had fun since we went to the place for one reason only, for us kids to have fun and play. We never had to beg for those things as kids, so if something happened that ment we had to be cut short, then we'd know we'd get compensated later on. The furthest we had to go as kids if we wanted something like going to the arcade was to ask. That always resulted in a straight answer that was either "sure go get dressed" or "not today but we'll go on <insert day here>" and that was it. 

And no I have fun even if I dont get the rewards. You clearly dont get the idea of the thrill of the chase that is also part of the fun. There are game modes I wouldnt run without the basic rewards they offer though, because they simply arent interesting enough to be fun on their own. But if I go and say crack relics for X rare drop I wont be put down if I dont get it in 20 radiated relics, I'll just try again later and have more fun. But at the same time I wont head into a fissure without a relic just to play the mission.

No people arent animals for wanting to get rewarded. What I'm saying is that everything we do is tied to rewards, even in your case, though your reward is on a personal level, your reward is the "fun". Are you a donkey or an animal for getting rewarded with what you chase, which is the "fun" carrot? It is your brain that gets a rush either from one thing or another, if you feel that something is fun and you enjoy it, that is the reward your brain wants. Your fun is much the same as setting a new high score, because you dont get anything concrete as a reward in the end, neither do we when we chase an item made up of pixels, yet it hits the same center of the brain. This comes down to a matter of taste, the thing that triggers that part of your brain, which is the reason why there should be increased rewards in harder content in order to reach the larger sum of the masses. Higher rewards will let everyone have fun, no matter if you enjoy sensless monster killing, chasing loot, grind farming materials or head in there undergeared for a "challenge".

I'm not sure what it is you are trying to be clear on since it doesnt answer what the heck you mean by competition in a PvE game with more or less zero interaction outside of groups. Do you seriously think someone will tease or mock someone for not farming UHM Kuva Fortress for higher loot yield? How the flark would they know to begin with when they arent even grouped? You keep making up such silly scenarios at this point, and if someone has feared something like that they are even more silly. This isnt an MMO where we are in hubs 24/7 between missions or where you run past a random stranger in a lower area and pulls a "HA-HA <points finger>" Nelson move on them as you pass by. Is the community now made up of telepaths and psychics that know where everyone is farming their materials? I have no freakin idea where any player is at except when I group with them, at which point I know they run the same mission as me. Oh wait, so you mean that 1 out of the 4 guys, or even all 4 guys in a group will start sending mocking tells to everyone else in the game since they obviously arent grinding the hard content since they arent part of those 4? This imaginary scenario of toxicity really cracked me up since it is so damn far fetched.

Soooo adding HM will in the end change nothing in the community behavior, since what you paint up is already part of the game from mission to mission depending if you end up with mister D-wad or Dr. Toxic pretty much. And how would it impact you if you are a group of passionates? It wouldnt in the end. If you decide to PuG you'll get the same thing since people will complain that it is less rewarding and not worth it over normal missions. You reduce that happening by introducing loot yield that is balanced. I also think you compeltely missed my point regarding "quitting". That was in relation to what you asked and how long it has taken to get a harder star chart out there for us to enjoy. If I ask for a thing and it too will take this many year (when this was all about increased levels only) then it would be better to quit than wait.

They are phantom problems because they are made up issues. A higher loot yield will have no negative impact. If we were to start talking about brand new loot from HM/UHM it would be a completely different story and I'm pretty much against anything exclusively new that is tied to progression in HM/UHM. But as it is, where we are just talking about increased amounts of current loot, you are making up some massive exaggerations and phantom scenarios that make absolutely no sense.

 

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2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

So those games are able to cater equally to the the players that just want to relax and have fun as well as those that want a challenge, and no one complains on either end of the spectrum that things are too hard or not hard enough?

Lets not even talk about budgets and resources and why I say (m)any, lets just ask that question...do they really please the whole rainbow?

I don't enjoy either game, have not played WoW is years, never tried LoL, not my thing.

Several games out there please both sides. The complaints that arise mostly in WoW (and has done so since it first came out) comes from the people that cant raid. They want the items locked behind the raids, even though the gear is tailored for the next raid tier. Those people that cant raid have their dungeon gear, which will be enough for the next dungeon coming. It has no impact on them that they cant have the raid gear since the gear they have is already balanced for what they plan to do. There are also those complaining about getting killed in open world PvP because they cant do battleground well. In the end they shouldnt have picked a PvP server to play on to begin with.

But in the end, the game manages to cater to everyone except the extremely few outliers that want the game to be something else. And you can never please those players no matter what you do as a dev.

Diablo 3 also caters to the whole spectrum since it has adjustable difficulty that goes way way up. Same deal with PoE where there is something for everyone. Those games can never be too easy or too hard unless the player decides that it should be.

And this goes for several other games aswell. FFXIV, ESO, GW2 and so on also manages to cater to the wider part of the community. And I think Destiny 2 also manages it quite well.

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1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, why would I ever start a +100 Kuva Survival if my priority is the kuva and the extra 100 levels dont provide me more per life support tower? The risk is drastically higher for the type of missions since one false move will have the siphon blown up. Now if the yield at that level was double it would be worth since you'd be able to lose a few and still end up the same as a normal kuva survival mission. Same deal if people do Kuva Disruption, just a demo kill might only take a few seconds longer, but if they dont reward more it will be a net loss in the end since the seconds eventually add up for each rotation that goes by.

The only reason to increase kuva rewards would be to balance it out compared to regular Kuva survival.  i wouldnt really consider "more rewards", just balanced rewards. The only risk with doing that is if players break "hard" mode and end up getting far more Kuva than DE intends per 20 min session. 

I think when people talk of "more rewards" they are talking about something unique, like new mods or weapons. Increased resources and affinity are to be expected. 

I do hope that hard mode will eventually be more than just a level bump. Hopefully they add things like special modifiers, mission tweaks, etc. I also hope the community allows DE to truly make it challenging without the forum drama. Maybe they can get the PvP team to help balance it. 

 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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4 hours ago, Koga. said:

Well dunno about you  but the reward system in this game is kinda wack and boring so... and in most games  More challenging=Better rewards

 

4 hours ago, General-Pacman said:

You are making it sound as if this wasn't the industry standard. Im pretty sure most MMOS and GaaS make this.

And what do you see as better reward? Warframe isn't your usual MMO and GaaS where you grind for gears with higher level/rating over and over to reach next tier of gear grind so what will be better reward then?

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1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The only risk with doing that is if players break "hard" mode and end up getting far more Kuva than DE intends per 20 min session. 

Yes this would be a possible long ban and no one wants this for themselves or others.

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8 hours ago, Synpai said:

Take artists for example who have varied levels of talent and time, some artists may have minimum talent, demand, and time and be thrilled to draw anything for free, others will have anywhere in between up to the other extreme where you could pay hundreds for the same commission someone would do for free, but at a higher quality. Just because an artist doesn't draw for a client for free doesn't mean they don't "truly enjoy" art, it just means in particular instances they don't want to draw art that doesn't feel rewarding for them. In the same instance they can choose to draw non commissioned art either apart of a passion project or fan art for the sake of exposure or comfort/admiration (which to them is rewarding even if not financially).

The problem with these examples is that what you're describing here is A JOB. It's the difference between doing something for fun and being paid to do something. Unless you're playing the Secondary Market, nobody playing Warframe is actually being paid. I'd argue even those people aren't being paid, strictly speaking, as Warframe's Secondary Market uses scrip currency. You can't take it out of the game's closed system. Maybe mod makers? Conflating "reward as a video game mechanic" and "salary/commission/pay" is a mistake I see a lot of people making, on both sides of the developer paradigm. The majority of us playing Warframe are not getting paid to play it. Quite the opposite - a lot of us are paying to play the game. "Rewards" in the game mechanics term are not and should not be looked at as compensation. They are a gameplay mechanic. They're one part of a more complex progression system, but they are not payment. I can't stress this enough.

The difference between an artist drawing for free and an artist taking commissions is the same as the difference between an athlete working out for fun vs. an athlete under contract with a sport, or writer writing their own fan fiction vs. publishing books or writing for publications. It's the difference between a hobby and a job. Unless you are part of Digital Extremes, Warframe is a hobby. There is no alternative situation where it's anything else, unless you apply for a job or possibly unless you create professionally-made mods which DE will then license from you. Shooting high-level enemies is none of these activities. It's never a job. I know I'm repeating myself but this distinction is important.

The question with high difficulty, therefore, should never be "Are players fairly compensated for their work?" We aren't, we can't be and we shouldn't be looking for compensation in the first place for the above reasons. If players ever find themselves looking for compensation for their time spent in the game, then that is a failure of game design, both by making the game tedious and by teaching players bad habits. That's the fast lane to burnout, as far as I'm concerned, and overall not health for the game's long-term survival.

 

8 hours ago, Synpai said:

These are rhetorical questions; people gravitate to what they enjoy and even in warframe there are sections of enjoyment that people have made from professional Eidolons, fashion frame, index life, kuva rerolling, dojo decorating etc.  NOTE: progression isn't always better gear, in the case of competitive games and bullet hells, progression can be improving in skill or literally in making progress in the game.

Your portrayal here is very one-sided. You're only examining the situation from the perspective of a player who wants to be rewarded more for the content they run. That's fair - no real criticism there. However, you're neglecting the opposite - a player who wants the reward and will do whatever content is required to earn them. Rewards predominantly serve as incentive. Place too high an incentive on Hard Mode and you risk pushing people into running it who normally wouldn't because they genuinely don't enjoy it. Again - my example with ESO. I hate running it, but I still run it occasionally because Focus progression is too tedious otherwise. The problem with this is that it shifts the player's relationship with the game into a "job-like relationship," which is HUGELY damaging to that player's experience because - as we established - Warframe is not a job. It has no means of compensating us for work done. Its only merit is entertainment, the value and nature of which is highly personal.

The question, then, is this: Do you want to put players in the position of feeling pressured to play Hard Mode? Do you want to put people in the position of having to choose between "fun" and "reward?" Do you believe that everyone should be playing Hard Mode, making it OK to apply this pressure? Because there IS pressure. As I said - rewards are incentive, their goal is to influence what content people choose to run. I know this isn't your goal, but are you OK with a side effect of your goal being people running Hard Mode who aren't up to it, don't enjoy it and would rather play something else? Because that's precisely the result you're going to get. Putting high rewards on an activity will cause who don't enjoy it to play it anyway.

In my personal opinion, that's the worse option. If given the choice, I would always rather feel unrewarded than feel pressured into content I don't like. Video games are our hobby. Whether you enjoy them casually, try to be hardcore or come up with ridiculous challenges, "fun" is and should be the first consideration always. Progression systems can be fun, yes, but they can also be damaging when they pull in people who don't enjoy them intrinsically.

 

9 hours ago, Synpai said:

I've said it once and I'll say it again: why would anyone spend resources to design something they don't WANT you to play?

Because that allows the "thing" to better fit those who are expected to enjoy it. Are you under the belief that all players in a video game should play all aspects of it? Even the ones we don't like? That's what I'm getting out of your line of reasoning, and I'd argue that Nightwave already proved that wrong. When it came out, Nightwave's chief failure - far more so than FOMO - was that it tried to push ALL of the players into doing ALL of the things. This all but guaranteed that everyone would be unhappy. Enjoying video games - especially modern Live Services - is an exercise in selection. Finding out which activities are fun to do is arguably less important than finding out which activities are unpleasant. What to skip/avoid/ignore is absolutely essential to enjoying a modern Live Service.

You bring up Destiny, and that's a good example of doing... Just about everything wrong when it comes to progression. You brought up Raids, specifically, as something players are I assume expected to transition into. I have never run a single Raid because they don't have matchmaking and I don't have enough Destiny-playing friends to host one. "Oh, you can go to Forums/Discord/Chat and recruit." Yeah, or I can screw that and do something else. Worse than Raids, Destiny rams PvP and achievements and a whole bunch of other tedious bullS#&amp;&#036; down players' throats. A whole host of quests have PvP components, for example. Not just Shax' PvP quests, either. A common example I give is the Ace of Spades requiring I think 25 headshot kills with a revolver in PvP. I hate PvP, but I got the Ace of Spades, sandbagging my team-mates along the way because I don't give a rat's ass about the match. I just need my headshot kills. Do you know what the result of it was? I took a break from Destiny, kicked the habit an I never went back. I have no intention of dealing with a game which tries to push me into the activities it wants me to do to that extent.

Not all content is designed for all players, not all content should be. Designing content around broad appeal naturally waters it down. Pushing players who don't enjoy the core paradigm of a game mode into it anyway is a mistake. Those players will not enjoy their time, they will complain. If there are enough of them, the game mode will be changed, often at the expense of said core paradigm. Pushing players who don't want to play Hard Mode into Hard Mode by jacking up the rewards ensures that Hard Mode will be made into Easy Mode eventually. The simple fact of the matter is that despite the noise on the forums, most players generally don't like or want high difficulty. Foisting high difficulty on the broader community is a great way to ruin it down the line.

No developer designs content that's never intended to be played. Not on company time, anyway. But a developer could spend time designing content which only appeals to a minority of player. A smart developer might even disregard accessibility entirely, making said content entirely alien and impenetrable to people outside its target audience. As long as it's optional and tucked away in the corner, nobody will mind and the people who enjoy it will have a bit extra to look forward to.

Let me ask you a question: Do you play the guitar? Do you own a Shawzin? Do you spend time playing it and training your skills in it? You might, but let's assume for the sake of argument that - like the majority of Warframe players - the answer is "no." Does it bother you that there are not unique Arcanes for playing perfect pieces on the Shawzin? Do you figure the people who shelled out real money to buy one are upset that they aren't being rewarded for the often vast amount of time they invest in it? And yet, the Shawzin is content. DE pushed out quite a few patches and spent quite a bit of work on it, including releasing a Bass version. I don't for a second think that "Hard Mode" the way it's been described to us is more complex than implementing a literal guitar into the game. So did DE create a Shawzin that they didn't want anyone to play on account of not attaching rewards to it?

Well... If DE can release the Shawzin with no rewards and indeed a paywall and still expect a minority of people to play it, then I fail to see why they couldn't release Hard Mode with the same expectation. Inversely, I don't see why people are willing to spend money on and train the skills for playing the Shawzin, yet wouldn't be willing to play Hard Mode unless they're being compensated for it. As far as I'm concerned, Hard Mode should not offer meaningfully higher rewards than standard difficulties (aside from standard enemy reward scaling with level), and be offered merely as a "for fun" option for people who specifically want higher difficulty. For everyone else who feels it's unrewarding, I have no issue with the answer being "That's OK. It's not made for you."

 

In conclusion: I firmly believe that Warframe should not be examined within the same context as a paying job, that its game design should not follow the same paradigms, and that it's perfectly fine for content to be niche. Hard Mode works better as a niche feature than a mainstream update with the intention of broad appeal anyway.

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