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Why does everyone want better rewards for hard mode?


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Il y a 4 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

The scenario I mentioned previously where people are after the loot first and the difficulty second. If people are after the loot they will not run the harder mode if it rewards the same since it will be less efficient time vs reward. Having higher loot yield in harder modes will attract those players at all times instead of having them go do trivial content to have a better time vs reward ratio when they are actively farming specific loot. I mean, why would I ever start a +100 Kuva Survival if my priority is the kuva and the extra 100 levels dont provide me more per life support tower? The risk is drastically higher for the type of missions since one false move will have the siphon blown up. Now if the yield at that level was double it would be worth since you'd be able to lose a few and still end up the same as a normal kuva survival mission. Same deal if people do Kuva Disruption, just a demo kill might only take a few seconds longer, but if they dont reward more it will be a net loss in the end since the seconds eventually add up for each rotation that goes by.

Then I agree that they wont probably run it, but only until they wont have anymore rewards to get in the normal mode, they will eventually run out of them and then maybe run HMs ? I still dont see the problem if they wont instantly run HM with drool on their face ^^ (humour). A small part of the community is still a community. Plus, you and me dont exactly know how much people will actually run it if no rewards and who wont, we only guess in the end.  

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But it is backwards thinking. You think it should be without rewards just so some people wont whine because they cant handle it?

I dont like the terms "whine" and "cant handle it" but to prevent any sort of discrimination, yes, but not only that. I think it should be without rewards so people wont have never ending complains like "hard modes dont have enough loot" and after that "hard modes have too much loot" or "when do we have even more reward for HM?!", if there's none from the start, then they may complain for a bit but since they will ignore it for that reason, they will forget it soon after and go back farming like they are used to while leaving us peacefully playing in our corner until they reach progression end and join us.

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So you want two minorities of the community to control what the majority (us that want both challenge and appropriate loot like in all other arpgs, mmos etc.).

Your question is missing a part ? So cant answer it, sorry. 😕 

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You can play the "hero" card all you want and claim you want to protect those that may whine, but in the end it is counter productive for DE to release content used by a clique of players, where part of that clique aswell as others have demanded scaling loot for endless missions over many many many years already. There is a reason some of us ignore endless currently, since it just isnt efficient to go on. Those of us that come from other arpgs are used to optimizing builds to farm more effectively in higher content that is more challenging and rewarding. That has been a thing since D2.

I'm no hero, heros are taking care of old people right now or treating sick people, not debating on a forum over a game. I'm just what we call an altruist. And yes, we exist in the real world if you were asking yourself.

Like I repeated it multiple times in previous posts, upcoming Hard Modes are not new contents but shortcuts to something existing and planned from long ago and made because we asked for it long ago and designed for us, who just wanted a shortcut to not waste time in slaying low level ennemies for hours just to access it and having fun again (you probably wasnt even playing the game at that time) so saying it's counter productive for DE to realease it for the ones that asked for it and designed for this same "clique" of players is what is backwards thinking. DE proved that they werent running after money but were understanding and passionate people. You, wanting to take for yourself what was designed for us, just to satisfy more of your greediness sounds like a guy that suddenly enters a backery, stealing in front of us the bread we waited hours to get and exit the backery like it was normal. (just a funny image that made me smile that I just thought of from this discussion) ^^ I'm sure you wouldnt be ok with this. And last, it's not to you to decide if something is counter-productive for DE, it's a bit arrogant to do so (no offense) they can manage their productivity by themselves, they dont need us for that.

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No you were not the ones. There are more sides that have asked for higher content. You arent the ones that have asked for shortcuts for endless, several of us have asked for "elite" star chart missions. HM/UHM isnt just about endless missions. And where the flark do you get the idea that I see it as forced, when the hek did I ever imply that? Never.

Right.. Look, I'm not interested in the immature competition thing of "No I was first!" "no it was me!". Proof is that they said there wouldnt be more rewards the first time they talked about it so if it were the greedy people that asked it, they would have said there would be more reward from the start, wich is not the case. Keep calm.

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And no UHM doesnt exsist, nor will the new UHM really be it either since it is just the same mobs, the same snooze approach with just higher levels. To call it UHM or HM it should have special mutators to it, kinda like the different vault hunter modes in BL2, or how normal and heroic dungeons in WoW have different mechanics for bosses etc. And again, this isnt endless exclusive either.

Sounds like you dont know what upcoming Ultra Mode is, it's actually the same missions of actual star map but level +100, Hard mode being +50. Just because you didnt know how to acess or never saw lvl 130+ ennemies in the actual content, doesnt mean it dosnt exist. Just calm down.

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You wrote mindless in one of your other posts. Or if it was brainwashed. SSDD in the end, both imply those that think different from you are feeble minded.

No. Quote the "mindless" that you claim I wrote or you will be judged as a liar causing imaginary and unecessary quarrel accusing falsely other people just because you felt offended. Plus, if you are not sure, just dont claim anything.

For the brainwashing games part, I already explained what I was talking about before and that was not the same thing. 

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If you find fun in WF missions without rewards then you must be very easy to entertain. I guess that goes for any hack n slash game though.

Is that a bad thing to easily have fun ? What ^^

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How is that answer unrealistic. We were raised that way, simple as that. Though my parents wouldnt have told me or my brother to stop playing right this instant eitherway if we were at an arcade hall unless it was absolute emergency, they'd just go do something else while we had fun since we went to the place for one reason only, for us kids to have fun and play. We never had to beg for those things as kids, so if something happened that ment we had to be cut short, then we'd know we'd get compensated later on. The furthest we had to go as kids if we wanted something like going to the arcade was to ask. That always resulted in a straight answer that was either "sure go get dressed" or "not today but we'll go on <insert day here>" and that was it. 

That's nice, you were part of the lucky ones then 😊 I dont think you were spoiled so normally you should be fullfilled after such a nice childhood. 

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And no I have fun even if I dont get the rewards. You clearly dont get the idea of the thrill of the chase that is also part of the fun. There are game modes I wouldnt run without the basic rewards they offer though, because they simply arent interesting enough to be fun on their own. But if I go and say crack relics for X rare drop I wont be put down if I dont get it in 20 radiated relics, I'll just try again later and have more fun. But at the same time I wont head into a fissure without a relic just to play the mission.

It's not that I dont understand, it's just that since you already have enough of ressources and rewards, why being even more greedy when you know it will just make you closer to quit the game ? And while you claim that I "clearly' dont get the idea, you just admited above that you dont get how I could have fun with no rewards. See what I mean ? If you're the one not getting how fun works for me, why telling me that I dont get it ? It's the excessive greediness that I'm against of. Is it that hard or unacceptable to let a piece of that bread to an old minority ?

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No people arent animals for wanting to get rewarded. What I'm saying is that everything we do is tied to rewards, even in your case, though your reward is on a personal level, your reward is the "fun". Are you a donkey or an animal for getting rewarded with what you chase, which is the "fun" carrot? It is your brain that gets a rush either from one thing or another, if you feel that something is fun and you enjoy it, that is the reward your brain wants. Your fun is much the same as setting a new high score, because you dont get anything concrete as a reward in the end, neither do we when we chase an item made up of pixels, yet it hits the same center of the brain. This comes down to a matter of taste, the thing that triggers that part of your brain, which is the reason why there should be increased rewards in harder content in order to reach the larger sum of the masses. Higher rewards will let everyone have fun, no matter if you enjoy sensless monster killing, chasing loot, grind farming materials or head in there undergeared for a "challenge".

But in this particular case, if you already have enough of that carrot chase already (wich is the case) and we dont anymore, asking for more is no more a matter of taste, but a matter of greediness wich wont let us have peaceful fun since we are not interested in the same thing. It's like you putting two chemicals together without any knowledge in chemistry hoping it wont explode and evaporate one chemicals out of the pot. I'm for the safetyness of letting the two chemicals in their own each pot, waiting for the more unstable chemical to get ready and let it choose when they feel like getting in the other pot. I like your argument i find it interesting but I cant help but feel like it's an excuse to hide wanting more things than you already have. 

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Do you seriously think someone will tease or mock someone for not farming UHM Kuva Fortress for higher loot yield? How the flark would they know to begin with when they arent even grouped?

Why do you think some people would prefer no rewards over any kind of single reward like a ship decoration ? Just read the entire topic if you dont believe me. It's not just teasing or mockery but fear of feel jealousy too. Word-of-mouth.

And yes, a lot of these things happens in the game. In these 7 years i've seen so many different silly, ridiculous, toxic and bad behaviour you wouldnt believe there are in the game, to mockery for playing a frame, discrimination and insult just by being a Founder to players flaming new players in a mission lvl 5 because they wouldnt stop to die until they left the game and many more. Sigh... You just made me remember awful players, thanks for that. ^^' 

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You keep making up such silly scenarios at this point, and if someone has feared something like that they are even more silly.

Yeah, right.🙄 What do I know, I'm just a guy playing a hero after all.. I'm so silly. ^^  

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This isnt an MMO where we are in hubs 24/7 between missions or where you run past a random stranger in a lower area and pulls a "HA-HA <points finger>" Nelson move on them as you pass by. Is the community now made up of telepaths and psychics that know where everyone is farming their materials? I have no freakin idea where any player is at except when I group with them, at which point I know they run the same mission as me. Oh wait, so you mean that 1 out of the 4 guys, or even all 4 guys in a group will start sending mocking tells to everyone else in the game since they obviously arent grinding the hard content since they arent part of those 4? This imaginary scenario of toxicity really cracked me up since it is so damn far fetched.

Well, well, if that isnt a form of mockery 😛 I guess it's proof that we are too different to share a peaceful moment together. 😞 

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And how would it impact you if you are a group of passionates? It wouldnt in the end. If you decide to PuG you'll get the same thing since people will complain that it is less rewarding and not worth it over normal missions. You reduce that happening by introducing loot yield that is balanced. I also think you compeltely missed my point regarding "quitting". That was in relation to what you asked and how long it has taken to get a harder star chart out there for us to enjoy. If I ask for a thing and it too will take this many year (when this was all about increased levels only) then it would be better to quit than wait.

Enjoying a peaceful moment between people that understand each other, have the same interest and that dont complains in chat but have a nice chating if we can. Imagine a theatre where theres a room for your favorite movie with teenagers that are laughing too loud (not just a little) always talk during moments where you are enjoying the movie, ruining your fun. If you had the choice with another room for the same movie where only well mannered people are, wouldnt you change room ? The answer is yes (unless you are, of course, of the same type of the teenagers of the first room in wich case youd stay there. UNLESS you really want to be annoying and make your presence known and go to the other room with the fullfillment of ruining other people fun. I think it's a pretty good exemple but you tell me. ^^  

If you ask more and more without end, it wont even take you years to quit the game friend. I've seen so many players in that case, trust me. Time to realise that farming the normal way without asking more is fun and that greediness is not a good thing for you nor the game longevity.      

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They are phantom problems because they are made up issues. A higher loot yield will have no negative impact. If we were to start talking about brand new loot from HM/UHM it would be a completely different story and I'm pretty much against anything exclusively new that is tied to progression in HM/UHM. But as it is, where we are just talking about increased amounts of current loot, you are making up some massive exaggerations and phantom scenarios that make absolutely no sense.

For someone who imagined me and accused me of saying something I never said ("mindless"), didnt know what UHM was exactly and ignoring that lvl 100+ ennemies already existed in this content and could be accessed to right now, talking about phantom problems, made up issues over my experience with the community over these 7 years just being imaginary is kind of nonsense and ironic. No offense, just trying to open your eyes to the fact that you may lacking of ingame experience, community and discernment wich makes your statements not really convincing. 😕

Edited by Sven_Lazar
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il y a une heure, BillyBlyatStorm a dit :

I can't even find the hard mode even though I finished the star map.

You will find it if you look for it ! 😄

But more seriously, find a good clan that will help you to access it when you are ready 😉 Unfortunately, mine is not english speaking so cant invite you if you wanted 😞 

il y a une heure, Steel_Rook a dit :

The problem with these examples is that what you're describing here is A JOB. It's the difference between doing something for fun and being paid to do something. Unless you're playing the Secondary Market, nobody playing Warframe is actually being paid. I'd argue even those people aren't being paid, strictly speaking, as Warframe's Secondary Market uses scrip currency. You can't take it out of the game's closed system. Maybe mod makers? Conflating "reward as a video game mechanic" and "salary/commission/pay" is a mistake I see a lot of people making, on both sides of the developer paradigm. The majority of us playing Warframe are not getting paid to play it. Quite the opposite - a lot of us are paying to play the game. "Rewards" in the game mechanics term are not and should not be looked at as compensation. They are a gameplay mechanic. They're one part of a more complex progression system, but they are not payment. I can't stress this enough.

The difference between an artist drawing for free and an artist taking commissions is the same as the difference between an athlete working out for fun vs. an athlete under contract with a sport, or writer writing their own fan fiction vs. publishing books or writing for publications. It's the difference between a hobby and a job. Unless you are part of Digital Extremes, Warframe is a hobby. There is no alternative situation where it's anything else, unless you apply for a job or possibly unless you create professionally-made mods which DE will then license from you. Shooting high-level enemies is none of these activities. It's never a job. I know I'm repeating myself but this distinction is important.

The question with high difficulty, therefore, should never be "Are players fairly compensated for their work?" We aren't, we can't be and we shouldn't be looking for compensation in the first place for the above reasons. If players ever find themselves looking for compensation for their time spent in the game, then that is a failure of game design, both by making the game tedious and by teaching players bad habits. That's the fast lane to burnout, as far as I'm concerned, and overall not health for the game's long-term survival.

 

Your portrayal here is very one-sided. You're only examining the situation from the perspective of a player who wants to be rewarded more for the content they run. That's fair - no real criticism there. However, you're neglecting the opposite - a player who wants the reward and will do whatever content is required to earn them. Rewards predominantly serve as incentive. Place too high an incentive on Hard Mode and you risk pushing people into running it who normally wouldn't because they genuinely don't enjoy it. Again - my example with ESO. I hate running it, but I still run it occasionally because Focus progression is too tedious otherwise. The problem with this is that it shifts the player's relationship with the game into a "job-like relationship," which is HUGELY damaging to that player's experience because - as we established - Warframe is not a job. It has no means of compensating us for work done. Its only merit is entertainment, the value and nature of which is highly personal.

The question, then, is this: Do you want to put players in the position of feeling pressured to play Hard Mode? Do you want to put people in the position of having to choose between "fun" and "reward?" Do you believe that everyone should be playing Hard Mode, making it OK to apply this pressure? Because there IS pressure. As I said - rewards are incentive, their goal is to influence what content people choose to run. I know this isn't your goal, but are you OK with a side effect of your goal being people running Hard Mode who aren't up to it, don't enjoy it and would rather play something else? Because that's precisely the result you're going to get. Putting high rewards on an activity will cause who don't enjoy it to play it anyway.

In my personal opinion, that's the worse option. If given the choice, I would always rather feel unrewarded than feel pressured into content I don't like. Video games are our hobby. Whether you enjoy them casually, try to be hardcore or come up with ridiculous challenges, "fun" is and should be the first consideration always. Progression systems can be fun, yes, but they can also be damaging when they pull in people who don't enjoy them intrinsically.

 

Because that allows the "thing" to better fit those who are expected to enjoy it. Are you under the belief that all players in a video game should play all aspects of it? Even the ones we don't like? That's what I'm getting out of your line of reasoning, and I'd argue that Nightwave already proved that wrong. When it came out, Nightwave's chief failure - far more so than FOMO - was that it tried to push ALL of the players into doing ALL of the things. This all but guaranteed that everyone would be unhappy. Enjoying video games - especially modern Live Services - is an exercise in selection. Finding out which activities are fun to do is arguably less important than finding out which activities are unpleasant. What to skip/avoid/ignore is absolutely essential to enjoying a modern Live Service.

You bring up Destiny, and that's a good example of doing... Just about everything wrong when it comes to progression. You brought up Raids, specifically, as something players are I assume expected to transition into. I have never run a single Raid because they don't have matchmaking and I don't have enough Destiny-playing friends to host one. "Oh, you can go to Forums/Discord/Chat and recruit." Yeah, or I can screw that and do something else. Worse than Raids, Destiny rams PvP and achievements and a whole bunch of other tedious bullS#&amp;&#036; down players' throats. A whole host of quests have PvP components, for example. Not just Shax' PvP quests, either. A common example I give is the Ace of Spades requiring I think 25 headshot kills with a revolver in PvP. I hate PvP, but I got the Ace of Spades, sandbagging my team-mates along the way because I don't give a rat's ass about the match. I just need my headshot kills. Do you know what the result of it was? I took a break from Destiny, kicked the habit an I never went back. I have no intention of dealing with a game which tries to push me into the activities it wants me to do to that extent.

Not all content is designed for all players, not all content should be. Designing content around broad appeal naturally waters it down. Pushing players who don't enjoy the core paradigm of a game mode into it anyway is a mistake. Those players will not enjoy their time, they will complain. If there are enough of them, the game mode will be changed, often at the expense of said core paradigm. Pushing players who don't want to play Hard Mode into Hard Mode by jacking up the rewards ensures that Hard Mode will be made into Easy Mode eventually. The simple fact of the matter is that despite the noise on the forums, most players generally don't like or want high difficulty. Foisting high difficulty on the broader community is a great way to ruin it down the line.

No developer designs content that's never intended to be played. Not on company time, anyway. But a developer could spend time designing content which only appeals to a minority of player. A smart developer might even disregard accessibility entirely, making said content entirely alien and impenetrable to people outside its target audience. As long as it's optional and tucked away in the corner, nobody will mind and the people who enjoy it will have a bit extra to look forward to.

Let me ask you a question: Do you play the guitar? Do you own a Shawzin? Do you spend time playing it and training your skills in it? You might, but let's assume for the sake of argument that - like the majority of Warframe players - the answer is "no." Does it bother you that there are not unique Arcanes for playing perfect pieces on the Shawzin? Do you figure the people who shelled out real money to buy one are upset that they aren't being rewarded for the often vast amount of time they invest in it? And yet, the Shawzin is content. DE pushed out quite a few patches and spent quite a bit of work on it, including releasing a Bass version. I don't for a second think that "Hard Mode" the way it's been described to us is more complex than implementing a literal guitar into the game. So did DE create a Shawzin that they didn't want anyone to play on account of not attaching rewards to it?

Well... If DE can release the Shawzin with no rewards and indeed a paywall and still expect a minority of people to play it, then I fail to see why they couldn't release Hard Mode with the same expectation. Inversely, I don't see why people are willing to spend money on and train the skills for playing the Shawzin, yet wouldn't be willing to play Hard Mode unless they're being compensated for it. As far as I'm concerned, Hard Mode should not offer meaningfully higher rewards than standard difficulties (aside from standard enemy reward scaling with level), and be offered merely as a "for fun" option for people who specifically want higher difficulty. For everyone else who feels it's unrewarding, I have no issue with the answer being "That's OK. It's not made for you."

 

In conclusion: I firmly believe that Warframe should not be examined within the same context as a paying job, that its game design should not follow the same paradigms, and that it's perfectly fine for content to be niche. Hard Mode works better as a niche feature than a mainstream update with the intention of broad appeal anyway.

Damn ! I'm too bad with english and would be incapable to explain it better than this. You have my respect even if it probably dosn't mean anything to you. 👍  IMO, this should be put as sticky so people would understand this point of view where i have difficulties in doing it.  

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4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The question with high difficulty, therefore, should never be "Are players fairly compensated for their work?" We aren't,

There's one flaw in your logic chief. 

Farming isn't fun. In fact, farming feels a lot like work. On the other hand, combat in warframe is fun, when I'm challenged. Any enemy under level 130 dies nearly instantly. 

You can fix both problems by adding a solution to make farms less of a job. (People call it grinding. Like a day to day grind. In other words? A job.) This can be done by adding a hard mode that that shortens the farm with more abundant rewards, but comes with more challenging enemies. 

Have you ever noticed that when somebody wins a lottery, gets a prize, wins a contest etc- The context is so rarely a job? 

Not only that, but if hard missions had special rewards, that nobody knew about? Getting them would be a fun surprise. 

The point when Warframe becomes a job to play, the world's first job that makes you PAY to play it? The game dies. Many games have a mechanic that harder missions are more rewarding. It's so that there's an incentive to not bother the low levels, and that you feel accomplished for doing something hard. It's really not an alien concept.

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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQP2k6Zr_goHPj_b-Kn5H_

I Dunno maybe something that is better than 5000 creds from a rotation for exmp ? lmfao

13 hours ago, 844448 said:

 

And what do you see as better reward? Warframe isn't your usual MMO and GaaS where you grind for gears with higher level/rating over and over to reach next tier of gear grind so what will be better reward then?

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14 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The only reason to increase kuva rewards would be to balance it out compared to regular Kuva survival.  i wouldnt really consider "more rewards", just balanced rewards. The only risk with doing that is if players break "hard" mode and end up getting far more Kuva than DE intends per 20 min session. 

I think when people talk of "more rewards" they are talking about something unique, like new mods or weapons. Increased resources and affinity are to be expected. 

I do hope that hard mode will eventually be more than just a level bump. Hopefully they add things like special modifiers, mission tweaks, etc. I also hope the community allows DE to truly make it challenging without the forum drama. Maybe they can get the PvP team to help balance it. 

 

Yeah it should be a balance thing. My suggestion is to simply add the boosters already present in fissures to apply to hard and ultra in some way. +50% in hard and +100% in ultra, problem with resource balance solved and it can be applied in all normal endless missions aswell. I'm 100% against new rewards, except for vanity items that show that "I did it!". We dont need more mods in the game that increase power, and if they decide to introduce sidegrades like alot of the mods from arbitrations, then they should be added in normal mode aswell, just slightly easier to obtain if you run harder content to serve the risk, time and reward balance. Lets say something has 1% chance to drop in normal, in hard that shifts to 3% while in ultra it lands at 5%, while the less wanted rewards have their drop chance lowered to fit the 100% of the drop table. It is already in the game with relics, so it should work to add it to hard and ultra aswell.

The problem in this thread is that many are against even increased resources and affinity or altered percentages on the loot tables.

And agreed, I hope it brings alot more than just levels and I hope people understand the words hard and ultra hard, and stops complaining that it is "too hard".

edit: I just read your post above this one. Great idea. 👍

Edited by SneakyErvin
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12 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

For someone who imagined me and accused me of saying something I never said ("mindless"), didnt know what UHM was exactly and ignoring that lvl 100+ ennemies already existed in this content and could be accessed to right now, talking about phantom problems, made up issues over my experience with the community over these 7 years just being imaginary is kind of nonsense and ironic. No offense, just trying to open your eyes to the fact that you may lacking of ingame experience, community and discernment wich makes your statements not really convincing. 😕

If you've run into issues to the point where you think adding higher rewards to HM and UHM is bad, maybe you should look around for new friends or a new clan. If you have friends or are in a clan that mocks players that dont bother with endless in its current braindead unrewarding state then those friends or that clan is a stain on the community.`I wouldnt wanna be associated with such people.

I havent seen a single comment anywhere in the game or elsewhere regarding how nooby or bad people are for not running absurd endless runs. So again it is very much a phantom idea or you are an outlier with outlier friends/clannies that have the maturity of a bully in a sandbox. Because that seems to be what you are saying, that you've experienced bullies based on endless.

So going by your logic here, HM and UHM shouldnt be added at all since it will make it even more accessible so even more people will bully others for not running high endless or even at that high regular missions.

I'm still curious as to how those people will manage to bully the avarage player since they'll never have any "physical" contact with them ingame except when running the same missions. Or will we have a Town Cryer Bully (sounds like some Monthy Python thing) that's going to machinegun insults at randoms in relays.

Also, regarding increased rewards. There are certain thing we will never cap out on, like Kuva. You also miss the whole possibility of another RJ addition where we need new mats. Why should we not be able to do the hardest content to make the progress the most interesting and effective when something new arrives? Why be forced to tedious low levels?

You also keep bringing up exlusive rewards, I dont give a crap about those. I'm talking purely about increased rewards of what we usually hunt, in order to get a more interesting yet effective way to farm things, past and future additions, from old mods to new mods, old and new resources etc. If people worry about jelousy rooted in new vanity items maybe they should grow up already.

Again I ask you, should we really have DE design a system so it caters to the absolutely most outlier and rediculous part of the community that get their feelings hurt for practically anything eitherway and are never pleased? No, they should design for the majority and dont give a flying duck about the very few over sensities instant gratification outliers.

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8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Farming isn't fun. In fact, farming feels a lot like work. On the other hand, combat in warframe is fun, when I'm challenged. Any enemy under level 130 dies nearly instantly.
You can fix both problems by adding a solution to make farms less of a job. (People call it grinding. Like a day to day grind. In other words? A job.) This can be done by adding a hard mode that that shortens the farm with more abundant rewards, but comes with more challenging enemies. Have you ever noticed that when somebody wins a lottery, gets a prize, wins a contest etc- The context is so rarely a job? 

The context might not be a standard 9-5 job, but the dynamic is the same. The "winner" is still being compensated for time or money spent with actual, tangible compensation - something Warframe doesn't have and can't have. Again - looking at video games in a transactional manner is healthy for the overall experience. I'm also not going to disagree with you that farming feels like work. I know that a niche audience exists that enjoys farming for its own sake, the majority of us do it in a transactional context. I do things I don't like, you give me rewards I want. My criticism here is that this entire mindset is toxic at inception. To go back to what I've said in the past - the statement "Warframe is a grindy game" is not a justification but the definition of a problem. When a video game turns into a second job, I call that a failure of design - or monetisation, as the case may be.

Warframe's entire monetisation model has a fundamental issue of context, I think. More than pretty much any other game I've played, Warframe has no issue selling power. There's almost nothing I can't spend money to buy, from cosmetics to Warframes to items to even a few rentals (Boosters come to mind). To my mind, this is because Warframe advertises itself backwards. It's presented to us as a free game with the option of paying for it, when what it ACTUALLY is is a paid game with the option of playing a free, cut-down demo. You can get a lot of mileage out of the demo, to be sure, but you're also going to need to treat this actual game as though it were a job to do it. "You get what you pay for." The point of the grind is presented to us as adding "extrinsic rewards." When those rewards can be purchased directly, however, what it's actually adding is a grindwall, I guess because modern audiences are more accepting of grindwalls than paywalls.

To address your actual point, however - "adding more rewards to Hard Mode can fix two problems at once." This is where I brought up a one-sided examination in my previous post. It solves two problems at once FOR YOU, because you already intrinsically enjoy playing Hard Mode and would like to be rewarded more for it. That's fair. Consider the opposite situation, however. Put yourself in the shoes of a person who doesn't like Hard Mode but likes the boosted rewards. That player, then, is put under significant pressure to play Hard Mode anyway, have a miserable time of it, but still keep doing it. That person is, in effect, encouraged to turn the game into a job. This is why I argued against treating rewards like compensation, and treating them as incentive. They're not there to "reward" you for running content. It's rather the opposite - they're there to "convince" you to run content. Over-rewarding Hard Mode, therefore, is going to convince people who don't enjoy it to play it anyway, and thus overall degrade their experience.

You're also running a serious risk of shifting the status quo by doing this. Let me ask you a question: What do you think "normal difficulty" is Level 40-60? 80-100? It didn't always use to be that way in Warframe. I'm told tales of a time when enemy levels capped at 30. Prior to Raijlack/Liches, I'd have argued that 40-60 was high level. Now those updates have convinced me to see 80-100 as high level. If you over-reward Hard Mode and it becomes the de-facto mode everyone's supposed to play, are we in for another major game rebalance to make a broader section of the player base more competitive at level 140-160? It's happened before. In fact, it happened very recently. Liches pushed a lot of people into the 80-100 range, people discovered that enemy scaling made that level range unpleasant, so DE dramatically slashed enemy health and armour scaling past level 75, in fact turning 80-100 into Normal Levels, despite my description of it as "High."

There's this idea in video game communities that players should naturally keep playing harder and harder content as they get better at the game, with the goal being to play the hardest difficulty in the game all the time and - presumably - complain that the game isn't hard enough. This is entirely the wrong approach in my experience, because it leads to nothing more than constant power creep. People feel pressured to play Hard, developers increase player power, players start asking for Very Hard. People fell pressured to play Very Hard, developers increase player power, people start asking for Ultra Hard. Etc. Payday 2 is the perfect example of this. It launched with Overkill being the game's highest difficulty, eventually released Deathwish as a "#*!% YOU!" difficulty that nobody was supposed to play... But gated achievements behind it. So everyone played it, found ways to exploit it, demanded better balance on it, then turned it into Normal Difficulty. Overkill eventually had to release One Down/Death Sentence as the new "#*!% YOU!" difficulty, rebalancing the game around Deathwish. If they hadn't gone bankrupt, I foresee them eventually needing one more at around this point in the game's life.

I don't have anything against you being rewarded for your time in the game. Far from it. What I have a problem with is viewing Warframe in purely transactional means. Rewards are not compensation, they are incentive. If you want your Hard Mode to actually stay "hard," you don't want to incentivise everyone to play it. On the contrary, you want to dis-incentivise them else it's going to be made easier and easier and lose its point. And if your primary goal is the rewards, then your issue is not with difficulty, but with DE's approach to grind as a smoke screen for their business model.

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Posting this here, since it's relevant to the topic:
As mentioned on this thread, Reb and Megan said on yesterday's home time that hardmode may be released for testing on the public test cluster next week.

 

Edited by General-Pacman
Removed quote that may be confusing
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 Most players would like better rewards for most of the content. Or at least a few rounds of new ones. The original syndicates havent had anything new and substantial for a Looooooooong time. 

Hard mode should def come with something other than brownie point emblems hardly anyone will wear because we are too busy wearing clan and alliance emblems. 

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4 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

Posting this here, since it's relevant to the topic:
As mentioned on this thread, Reb and Megan said on yesterday's home time that hardmode may be released for testing on the public test cluster next week. A quick  recap of what they mentioned about the mode, also extracted from Jarriaga's thread:

 

Thanks for the heads up.

I dont think any veteran players need any resources from starchart (besides occasional argon duh) so this bonus is totally useless for us. But might upset new players who still need resources yet cant pay 'hard mode'.

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8 minutes ago, General-Pacman said:

Posting this here, since it's relevant to the topic:
As mentioned on this thread, Reb and Megan said on yesterday's home time that hardmode may be released for testing on the public test cluster next week. A quick  recap of what they mentioned about the mode, also extracted from @Jarriaga's thread:

 

Just for clarification, those are my personal expectations based on my experiences with hard mode in all other loot-based games I've played. 

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2 minutes ago, Monolake said:

(besides occasional argon duh)

Don't forget Orokin Cells...which seem to just go back and forth between "I have too many of these damn things" and "WHY AM I OUT OF CELLS AGAIN!?" for all but the biggest hoarders.

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Just now, Jarriaga said:

Just for clarification, those are my personal expectations based on my experiences with hard mode in all other loot-based games I've played. 

Oh, wasn't that a summary of what they said? My bad, Im going to remove that quote then, to avoid confusions.

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Just now, General-Pacman said:

Oh, wasn't that a summary of what they said? My bad, Im going to remove that quote then, to avoid confusions.

They did mention +50 and +100 back on May 8th when they initially announced hard mode was coming, but no news ever since. I was replying to another user that as long as they deliver on that (Plus difficulty reward scaling) I'd be happy since that was a very low bar and I'm expecting nothing more than that.

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3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

They did mention +50 and +100 back on May 8th when they initially announced hard mode was coming, but no news ever since. I was replying to another user that as long as they deliver on that (Plus difficulty reward scaling) I'd be happy since that was a very low bar and I'm expecting nothing more than that.

Got it now, thanks for the clarification. And I 100% agree with that, Having just increased resource drop rates would be more than enough for me to fully move to hardmode and almost stop doing regular missions.

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21 hours ago, Koga. said:

there is 2 groups, the ones that think More challenge = more fun and also the ones that think More challenge=More rewards, so why not both ? 

I have no problem with having both. I have a porblem with people who say they want X while they actually want Y. There were loads of people saying they want challenge and later on started QQ that challenging content needs to have better rewards or they won't play.

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21 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

I have no problem with having both. I have a porblem with people who say they want X while they actually want Y. There were loads of people saying they want challenge and later on started QQ that challenging content needs to have better rewards or they won't play.

Do you have a job? Do you expect the same pay for a more difficult position or higher responsibilities? 

There is literally no reason to waste time by willingly pursuing a less efficient way to accomplish the exact same outcome in a game that resolves strictly around loot and gear rather than skill. You can currently do that by nerfing your build or by playing with a hand tied to your back.

Heck, even the most skill-based games reward you for playing harder difficulties. The infinite devil trigger mode in Devil May Cry is always unlocked after beating the game in Dante Must Die, which is the hardest difficulty.

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9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The problem with these examples is that what you're describing here is A JOB. It's the difference between doing something for fun and being paid to do something. Unless you're playing the Secondary Market, nobody playing Warframe is actually being paid. I'd argue even those people aren't being paid, strictly speaking, as Warframe's Secondary Market uses scrip currency. You can't take it out of the game's closed system. Maybe mod makers? Conflating "reward as a video game mechanic" and "salary/commission/pay" is a mistake I see a lot of people making, on both sides of the developer paradigm. The majority of us playing Warframe are not getting paid to play it. Quite the opposite - a lot of us are paying to play the game. "Rewards" in the game mechanics term are not and should not be looked at as compensation. They are a gameplay mechanic. They're one part of a more complex progression system, but they are not payment. I can't stress this enough.

The difference between an artist drawing for free and an artist taking commissions is the same as the difference between an athlete working out for fun vs. an athlete under contract with a sport, or writer writing their own fan fiction vs. publishing books or writing for publications. It's the difference between a hobby and a job. Unless you are part of Digital Extremes, Warframe is a hobby. There is no alternative situation where it's anything else, unless you apply for a job or possibly unless you create professionally-made mods which DE will then license from you. Shooting high-level enemies is none of these activities. It's never a job. I know I'm repeating myself but this distinction is important.

The question with high difficulty, therefore, should never be "Are players fairly compensated for their work?" We aren't, we can't be and we shouldn't be looking for compensation in the first place for the above reasons. If players ever find themselves looking for compensation for their time spent in the game, then that is a failure of game design, both by making the game tedious and by teaching players bad habits. That's the fast lane to burnout, as far as I'm concerned, and overall not health for the game's long-term survival.

Reward is not merely financial compensation. There is a reward (enjoyment) in doing hobbies as you're noted "entertainment value" is something that can be gauged and valued even in hobbies or games. There are hobbies that produce more reward for the time put into them than others and this varied from person to person.

It was never about warframe being a financial paying job so I'm confused on how we jumped so far to that parallel. It's about fairness and behavioral economics, the fact that people compare any task at hand to other possibilities, but it's particularly potent for jobs. However, people frequently question if "A GAME IS WORTH THEIR [Resource]" It's the reason you're playing Warframe and not Tetris or why you watch one show over another. Even if we exclude money, time itself is a expendable and valuable resource, so it's still fair to calculate and compare the enjoyment factor of Game A over Game B or Task A over Task B the same way in financial economics one would compare spending or earning income. Fun is a reward, for many they are compensated for their work, literally effort/time spent in this case, in games with enjoyment. That's why the parallel was made, because although there is not money, players are rewarded. But it's not ALWAYS about what's more rewarding and in that I believe we agree.

However the question was "Why would people want better rewards for increased difficulty" and I mentioned that there are instances where people wouldn't care to be rewarded in the same way for work they normally would be rewarded, but at the same time it does make sense to desire more rewards for increased difficulty since you are dedicating potentially more resources (time, money, etc.) to a task. 


There is a delicate balance in rewards to not lean too far against incentive to people who'd like the content and to not lean too far against people who have no desire otherwise.

 

9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Your portrayal here is very one-sided. You're only examining the situation from the perspective of a player who wants to be rewarded more for the content they run. That's fair - no real criticism there. However, you're neglecting the opposite - a player who wants the reward and will do whatever content is required to earn them. Rewards predominantly serve as incentive. Place too high an incentive on Hard Mode and you risk pushing people into running it who normally wouldn't because they genuinely don't enjoy it. Again - my example with ESO. I hate running it, but I still run it occasionally because Focus progression is too tedious otherwise. The problem with this is that it shifts the player's relationship with the game into a "job-like relationship," which is HUGELY damaging to that player's experience because - as we established - Warframe is not a job. It has no means of compensating us for work done. Its only merit is entertainment, the value and nature of which is highly personal.

 

9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

People gravitate to what they enjoy and even in warframe there are sections of enjoyment that people have made from professional Eidolons, fashion frame, index life, kuva rerolling, dojo decorating etc.

I'm not sure we're disagreeing at this exact point. Maybe my examples faltered, but the point is that there is multiple sides to every decision.

Dojo Decorating, Fashion frame, running only index, running only Eidolons, rolling rivens hundreds of times they're all content that various people chose to do even if simply because they enjoy it more than other options. These tasks are not directly tied to progression or reward. Players can roll a riven thousands of times and not be guaranteed anything better.

I feel like there are things I agree with just suddenly being attached to something not completely relevant or factual. Non-sequitur I believe?

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Place too high an incentive on Hard Mode and you risk pushing people into running it who normally wouldn't because they genuinely don't enjoy it. Again - my example with ESO. I hate running it, but I still run it occasionally because Focus progression is too tedious otherwise.

"So Focus/ESO is just not for you? If you truly enjoyed focus you wouldn't be worried how long it took or how efficient the grind was, you'd be happy to make whatever progress you made?" It feels like this is a point you were making, so forgive me if I'm not understanding properly. 


How does your experience differ from the same player who doesn't like hard mode but feel forced into doing hard mode simply to level because they're provided more affinity/resources? Or Even Dark Sectors because they provide more credits and resources? 

I don't think it's great if players feel forced into content they don't enjoy, BUT I ALSO DON'T THINK that necessarily means Hard mode shouldn't exist or not be more rewarding; there are more points to the conversation. The people who engaged with harder content accomplished something compared to the players that didn't desire to engage.

 

Should players be allowed to AFK in games and still receive an equal reward to those that engage in the content?

Developers are already forcing us to do things we may not want to do, but providing us with options to do so in a manner that is enjoyable.

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Not all content is designed for all players, not all content should be. Designing content around broad appeal naturally waters it down. Pushing players who don't enjoy the core paradigm of a game mode into it anyway is a mistake. Those players will not enjoy their time, they will complain. If there are enough of them, the game mode will be changed, often at the expense of said core paradigm. Pushing players who don't want to play Hard Mode into Hard Mode by jacking up the rewards ensures that Hard Mode will be made into Easy Mode eventually. The simple fact of the matter is that despite the noise on the forums, most players generally don't like or want high difficulty. Foisting high difficulty on the broader community is a great way to ruin it down the line.

No developer designs content that's never intended to be played. Not on company time, anyway. But a developer could spend time designing content which only appeals to a minority of player. A smart developer might even disregard accessibility entirely, making said content entirely alien and impenetrable to people outside its target audience. As long as it's optional and tucked away in the corner, nobody will mind and the people who enjoy it will have a bit extra to look forward to.

Let me ask you a question: Do you play the guitar? Do you own a Shawzin? Do you spend time playing it and training your skills in it? You might, but let's assume for the sake of argument that - like the majority of Warframe players - the answer is "no." Does it bother you that there are not unique Arcanes for playing perfect pieces on the Shawzin? Do you figure the people who shelled out real money to buy one are upset that they aren't being rewarded for the often vast amount of time they invest in it? And yet, the Shawzin is content. DE pushed out quite a few patches and spent quite a bit of work on it, including releasing a Bass version. I don't for a second think that "Hard Mode" the way it's been described to us is more complex than implementing a literal guitar into the game. So did DE create a Shawzin that they didn't want anyone to play on account of not attaching rewards to it?

Well... If DE can release the Shawzin with no rewards and indeed a paywall and still expect a minority of people to play it, then I fail to see why they couldn't release Hard Mode with the same expectation. Inversely, I don't see why people are willing to spend money on and train the skills for playing the Shawzin, yet wouldn't be willing to play Hard Mode unless they're being compensated for it. As far as I'm concerned, Hard Mode should not offer meaningfully higher rewards than standard difficulties (aside from standard enemy reward scaling with level), and be offered merely as a "for fun" option for people who specifically want higher difficulty. For everyone else who feels it's unrewarding, I have no issue with the answer being "That's OK. It's not made for you."

Equating the Shwazin to having arcane progression just seems off. People who deliberately invest time into creating Shwazin works are being rewarded in their own right by making a distinct choice to do that over another task they've evaluated as less rewarding. Complete with skill and experience neither of us would have if we choose not to engage in the content.
 

And even that is different than having an Umbra forma locked behind a year of Shwazin Mastering. That's simply putting core game progression into a system that was built for a specific optional play-space.

I would say hard mode is potentially closer to a core content update while the Shwazin was a fun add on to a core update; apples and oranges to compare the weight of one to the other.

Some people would have a bigger issue with the Shwazin if it meant core development time was being seriously hampered with. The difference between the Shwazin tacked onto a massive update vs. Shwazin Hero being the only Tennocon reveal.

12 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Because that allows the "thing" to better fit those who are expected to enjoy it. Are you under the belief that all players in a video game should play all aspects of it? Even the ones we don't like? That's what I'm getting out of your line of reasoning, and I'd argue that Nightwave already proved that wrong. When it came out, Nightwave's chief failure - far more so than FOMO - was that it tried to push ALL of the players into doing ALL of the things. This all but guaranteed that everyone would be unhappy. Enjoying video games - especially modern Live Services - is an exercise in selection. Finding out which activities are fun to do is arguably less important than finding out which activities are unpleasant. What to skip/avoid/ignore is absolutely essential to enjoying a modern Live Service.

Nightwave is both a good and bad thing. The developer made it with the intent to get players to do things they wouldn't normally do as well as introduce information. Equally while it does cause worry of FOMO the developers have failsafes to make it not punishing to outright ignore a good percentage of the content, not play for weeks, and still receive the core rewards.

Even now, we're at phase 2/5 of nightwave and many will be rank 30 within the next couple of weeks with 3~4 weeks between each episode and 3~4 weeks before it's announced to end and being put into a cycle where it returns during an intermission where I believe it's easier to obtain them.

Even simply at the challenges themselves: 

A) Kill 1000 enemies (Good)

B) Polarize a Weapon (Mixed)

C) Gild a weapon (Bad)

I don't believe pushing players a little out of their comfort zone is an inherently bad thing, though there exist bad methods to do so. 

For example they give you seven days to Kill an Exploiter (Do it or don't do it, you'll be fine) and not to Kill 1000 Exploiter Orbs (Do it, or you wont get all the rewards).

 

Again, a delicate balance.

 

There are multiple non-exclusively mutual points being jumbled in your examples, it reminds me of instances where a frame could use improvements but people counter with the players that enjoy the frame as is, simple fact of the matter is both can be true. There can be people who love something that may be flawed in the grand scheme of design and people who dislike something that may be paradigm in the grand scheme of design, so I'm just gonna focus on the end where you make a more concise point.

 

11 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

As far as I'm concerned, Hard Mode should not offer meaningfully higher rewards than standard difficulties (aside from standard enemy reward scaling with level), and be offered merely as a "for fun" option for people who specifically want higher difficulty. For everyone else who feels it's unrewarding, I have no issue with the answer being "That's OK. It's not made for you."

So here's the thing, it is absolutely okay if hard mode doesn't offer more rewards, but is it not also okay if it does to a certain extent? The key would be potentially offering alternate acquisition methods, but those other methods are typically intended to be equivalent as to not trivialize one method over another.

 

 I'm of the belief of not caring as long as the developers make a choice with specific intent and design goals.

A) There are people who WANT higher level, difficult content

B) There are people who want to be rewarded more for increased difficulty

C There are people who DON'T want higher level content

D) There are people who don't care about in mission rewards, since they are rewarded with the enjoyment of the environment, music, fashion, lore, etc.

E) There are people who want Challenge and are sick of artificial difficulty

 

I'd argue that people in category A and B are the outliers trying to be satiated by hard mode as it stands their only option is to sit countless hours to get to a point where they feel fun or rewarded similarly to how you feel with ESO. Those particular players have had 7 years of content worth of "That's OK. It's not made for you."

10 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

The question, then, is this: Do you want to put players in the position of feeling pressured to play Hard Mode? Do you want to put people in the position of having to choose between "fun" and "reward?" Do you believe that everyone should be playing Hard Mode, making it OK to apply this pressure? Because there IS pressure. As I said - rewards are incentive, their goal is to influence what content people choose to run. I know this isn't your goal, but are you OK with a side effect of your goal being people running Hard Mode who aren't up to it, don't enjoy it and would rather play something else? Because that's precisely the result you're going to get. Putting high rewards on an activity will cause who don't enjoy it to play it anyway.

 

I don't think any of those questions matter, it's the same as "Do YoU tHiNk NO ONE sHoUlD pLaY HaRdMoDe!?"

The importance to me is the target audience for Hard Mode and what DE expect Hard Mode to be. I was under the impression that Hard mode was designed for the players DE put on the backburner that specifically critique not being properly rewarded through normal content AND those that desired higher level content. It's like asking if I feel if everyone should have to beat the Gyms in Pokemon to get to the Elite Four. When there's merit to doing either, but it makes sense that a developer would have a progression plan for their players.

Players are already constantly making a choice on the spectrum of fun, difficulty and reward, it's not so polar. The Limbo named Dio Brando with MK-1 JoJo references doesn't care how effective they are, they're having fun in their own way and their reward is more likely the enjoyment than whether or not the mission succeeds. While on the other side, XQT-Farmbot can feel the equal amount of fun and reward running ESO and min-maxing, while you or I struggle to feel either in those same instances. 

There's plenty of pressure to use specific weapons, and many make a conscious decision to use what they WANT to err more on the side of FUN though it may be less efficient or rewarding.

Either way it's two sides of the same coin. This is the point I was making: everyone wont be happy, but as a developer you have to sometimes provide your players with vision and intent.

Take the MR requirement of weapons: Players are forced to use plenty of weapons they may have no interest in to build up to use things because the developers had an idea of the power players should have at a particular level and prevent players reaching maximum power at the start of the game which can potentially ruin their experience and invalidate portions of content.

11 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

You bring up Destiny, and that's a good example of doing... Just about everything wrong when it comes to progression. You brought up Raids, specifically, as something players are I assume expected to transition into. I have never run a single Raid because they don't have matchmaking and I don't have enough Destiny-playing friends to host one. "Oh, you can go to Forums/Discord/Chat and recruit." Yeah, or I can screw that and do something else. Worse than Raids, Destiny rams PvP and achievements and a whole bunch of other tedious bullS#&amp;&#036; down players' throats. A whole host of quests have PvP components, for example. Not just Shax' PvP quests, either. A common example I give is the Ace of Spades requiring I think 25 headshot kills with a revolver in PvP. I hate PvP, but I got the Ace of Spades, sandbagging my team-mates along the way because I don't give a rat's ass about the match. I just need my headshot kills. Do you know what the result of it was? I took a break from Destiny, kicked the habit an I never went back. I have no intention of dealing with a game which tries to push me into the activities it wants me to do to that extent.

Yeah...I don't like Destiny for the same reasons, but what relevance is MATCHMAKING!? When the discussion was targeted at designers specifically laying out a pathway of progression. Specifically that players have to climb and reach a certain light level to even be qualified to do them.

This is what I mean it feels jumbled:

  • Me: "Destiny does a good job to help players know what content they can do and what level they need to aim for to do later content."
    • You: "Destiny also does a bad job at forcing integrating between PvP and PvE" (I agree, but it's not relevant)
  • Me: "Destiny does a decent job at providing players a space where they feel challenged"
    • You: "Destiny also does a bad job at providing players an easy way to connect and progress in non-dedicated squads" (I agree, but it's not relevant)

Then suddenly we arrive at "Games can't be equated to jobs and forcing activities will make people quit" and I'm trying to figure out where to even begin because the statement as a whole isn't necessarily true nor false but I'm not sure how it linked to the fact that:
 

>>> IF <<< the developers make the choice to make hard mode a progressive part of the game then they would have to make sure to structure the game properly and prepare players for hard mode content with specific progression goals. I.e: are rivens progression or not? If they are they need to be altered to properly reward players for investing in them with easier methods to invest in a weapon they desire to obtain said progression.

You shouldn't feel forced to acquire certain gear, unless the game properly provides variety and pathways toward reaching the goal. Again, hard mode doesn't HAVE to be that, but either way you slice it it's going to be niche.

I mention that regardless of what it is, Warframe at its core is an RPG power fantasy needs to get a grip on player's goals because >>> IF <<< Hard mode isn't progression, a player joining the game could build up to that point, progress through it and be left with no where to use that power (kind of causing the same problem).

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Leyvonne said:

I have no problem with having both. I have a porblem with people who say they want X while they actually want Y. There were loads of people saying they want challenge and later on started QQ that challenging content needs to have better rewards or they won't play.

so true, and after this they will complain that this hard mode ''ain't rewarding''

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11 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You can fix both problems by adding a solution to make farms less of a job. (People call it grinding. Like a day to day grind. In other words? A job.) This can be done by adding a hard mode that that shortens the farm with more abundant rewards, but comes with more challenging enemies. 

But why would anyone want to farm on a higher level content mission? If player want to its fine but if not they can farm the same resources on the regular mission node.

Like others have said players are already getting bans for excessive looting. If we are placing a passive double drop chance and resources on Hard mode, and if they bring a double loot frame, you are indicating it's okay to get 6 drops per kill and 12 drops with booster? This is excluding double stacking frames, so possible 24 drops per kill... Yes I can see lots of bans with this extra looting tactic. Farming = Camping =/= Challenge 

Hard mode should just be there to test weapons and frames as intented, not for bonus rewards. It was initially ment for the alternative to Simulacrum of higher level enemies not just mission rewards. If the Devs didn't see this as a problem, they may have never stated the discussion of the mode.

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38 minutes ago, Koga. said:

so true, and after this they will complain that this hard mode ''ain't rewarding''

Exactly this is why Hard mode shouldn't be tied to rewards. It can should be an area for DE to mingle with enemy design for more challenging AI

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Just now, kwlingo said:

Exactly this is why Hard mode shouldn't be tied to rewards. It can should be an area for DE to mingle with enemy design for more challenging AI

i'm siding with the reward idea tbh, if you wanna put a hard mode that ain't rewarding then sure go ahead. the ppl who want that will love it and the other who don't want it will simply just ignore it. 

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