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Why does everyone want better rewards for hard mode?


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11 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Can DE make a game that actually tests player skill Without it excluding players simly because they havent got the MR to use Rubico Prime yet ?

MR gates for use of a weapon are just plain stupid an argument considering it can be reasonably acquired very rapidly. Gear checks are also present in every single loot-based game. Just because I want to use the Braton in level 100 missions does not mean it should be possible. If early game guns could easily handle hard mode, then what is the point to the later higher mastery level guns? Gear checks are a thing. I know my Glaxion isn't the best weapon in the game. I know it won't compete in power output to other guns. So I don't take it when I have to fight high level enemies. Problem is, I don't have to worry about that at all because most of the content in this game is not high enough to prevent me from using it. Hard mode will offer content that actually allows us to use the potential of our endgame gear much quicker than sitting in a survival for an hour.

Also, if you want to test player skill, but cater it to those who cannot access the best of guns, then how are you testing player skill when the best gear isn't taken into account? I'm no meta slave, but I've found no content out of the reach of my Vectis Prime. And only high level disruptions to ever push the weapon into using more than two or three shots to take down anything except Eidolons. You can't test a player's skill if the content is too weak to push them. Hard mode is what players who have nothing to utilize their high power equipment need. Just as a start.

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1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

Citing Anthem in general is unconvincing to me.

It doesn't have to be convincing. It is a direct example of this. Can you name a single loot-based game with higher difficulty tiers that reward the same things as easier tiers/activities and having said activities not being disproportionately ignored by players with the gear needed to tackle said content?

Go ahead. I'll wait. I at least gave you this example that is as apples to apples as it gets.

3 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Even if that's how loot-based games work (and that's something you'll need to demonstrate more than just asserting it), this says nothing to whether said loot-based games work WELL.

Then you would be a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a minority of players who think the following games don't have loot systems that work well:

- NiOh/Nioh 2

- Shadow Warrior 2

-  Monster Hunter (All of them)

-  Borderlands 1 & 2

- Diablo 1, 2, and 3 (After the auction house was removed and loot was tied to your class)

- FFXIV

8 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I personally tend to find that aspect of loot-based games to be one of their more irritating aspects, because it fundamentally undermines the core gameplay loop for the sake of feeding a Skinner box. That's not healthy for one's long-term experience with a product.

That's fine if you they irritate you, but that's the cornerstone, backbone and pillar that defines what a loot-based game is. Your opinion is akin to complaining about car driving simulators having manual transmission outclassing automatic transmission. It's such an outlier and out there opinion that just begs the question of whether you should even be playing them in the first place, because that design is intentional and what most people look for.

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26 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Warframe's not a job, though. It's entertainment. We don't get paid to play this game - not outside of the Secondary Market anyway. We, in fact, pay to play the game - that's its business model. When you over-reward hard modes, what you end up doing is making people feel pressured to play difficulty settings they don't enjoy just for the sake of rewards. I already have a job. I'm not looking for a second one.

So nerfing things that can make the grind faster and less tedious and make it feel less like a 2nd job such as Ember, Bramma, Tonkor, Simulor, Spin2Win etc. is fine but introducing challenging and properly rewarding content for those that are willing to play it instead of curbstomping weak missions is not? I need to see what's the logic behind this.

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2 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

MR gates for use of a weapon are just plain stupid an argument considering it can be reasonably acquired very rapidly. Gear checks are also present in every single loot-based game. Just because I want to use the Braton in level 100 missions does not mean it should be possible. If early game guns could easily handle hard mode, then what is the point to the later higher mastery level guns? Gear checks are a thing. I know my Glaxion isn't the best weapon in the game. I know it won't compete in power output to other guns. So I don't take it when I have to fight high level enemies. Problem is, I don't have to worry about that at all because most of the content in this game is not high enough to prevent me from using it. Hard mode will offer content that actually allows us to use the potential of our endgame gear much quicker than sitting in a survival for an hour.

But there in lies the Problem... if its just a Gear Check... then can you even call it "hard" ?

3 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

Also, if you want to test player skill, but cater it to those who cannot access the best of guns, then how are you testing player skill when the best gear isn't taken into account? I'm no meta slave, but I've found no content out of the reach of my Vectis Prime. And only high level disruptions to ever push the weapon into using more than two or three shots to take down anything except Eidolons. You can't test a player's skill if the content is too weak to push them. Hard mode is what players who have nothing to utilize their high power equipment need. Just as a start.

I don't think you understand you're own Argument... If theres Equipment in the game isnt similarly Powerful then sorry to say that Any and all attempts at challenging Player Skill is gone... 

If you want your game to test player skill then you can not have equipment that is just outright Better than everything else or simple isnt viable in "harder" modes...

My Oppinion is.. Why shouldn't I bring Glaxion Vandal or Braton Prime into Extreme Face Punch Mode ? I like those weapons ? why am I being punished for having a Preference ?

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Let me tell you why people want better rewards from "challenging" things. Because the "difficulty" is just an excuse to get them. They always say they want "difficulty" but if it doesn't give better stuff, then no one ever does them and of course like in every game with raids, if you can exploit the game to make it easier, then people will exploit the S#&$ out of it. The rewards are the thing that people really want and the only reason for the "challenge" is so when they have it, they can go around flaunting it, you know, "i have this and you filthy casuals never will HAHAHA git gud, scrub".

If people found "challenge" fun, they wouldn't need better stuff, but it's all about the stuff.

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

Let me tell you why people want better rewards from "challenging" things. Because the "difficulty" is just an excuse to get them. They always say they want "difficulty" but if it doesn't give better stuff, then no one ever does them and of course like in every game with raids, if you can exploit the game to make it easier, then people will exploit the S#&$ out of it. The rewards are the thing that people really want and the only reason for the "challenge" is so when they have it, they can go around flaunting it, you know, "i have this and you filthy casuals never will HAHAHA git gud, scrub".

If people found "challenge" fun, they wouldn't need better stuff, but it's all about the stuff.

Imagine fighting lvl 100+ enemies and get the same amount of XP and/or loot from lvl 30 enemies.

Imagine getting Kuva Bramma, the strongest weapon in the game, as early as MR5 cuz "we dont want rewards tied to difficulty or progression"

Imagine actually wanting an endgame.

Imagine not getting burned out on content in 2 days because tougher content with good rewards incentivies people to get better and play more.

DE has been spoonfeeding their community for way too long to the point that endgame turned more of a "frowned upon" thing compared to years before when almost everyone was screaming for it.

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7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It doesn't have to be convincing. It is a direct example of this. Can you name a single loot-based game with higher difficulty tiers that reward the same things as easier tiers/activities and having said activities not being disproportionately ignored by players with the gear needed to tackle said content?

I can cite City of Heroes, where the reverse happened. High-difficulty "raid" content was generally unpopular and worked mostly through prearranged teams. I can also cite Payday 2, where much the same happened. Despite Death Sentence and Deathwish offering substantially higher XP and money rewards, the majority of players still played on Overkill because that's where balance was the most stable. Both games had their diehard max difficulty fans, but the majority of my own discussions with people were on much the same issue - "High difficulty sucks, I hate it, I should be rewarded more for it." Honestly, play what you actually enjoy. Chasing rewards WILL burn you out. I have eight years of burnout in City of Heroes to show for it.

All of this is secondary to my main point, though. Let's just assume you're right. If high difficulty settings don't "pay well," people who could play them don't play them anyway. Why is that a bad thing? I ask you this question. Do you enjoy high difficulty settings? If so, is that not enough of a reward on its own? I speak purely for myself here, but really the only reason I play Lich missions these days is because they give me a fixed enemy level in the 80-100 range. I certainly don't have any love for the actual Lich game mode. And if you don't consider the difficulty to be reward enough on its own, then what's the issue of simply playing lower difficulty settings? Again speaking purely for myself, but - if I wanted a lot of Cryotic, I wouldn't go to Pluto Excavation. I'd go to Earth Excavation specifically because it's an easier mission.

Again - play what you enjoy, or else play what you feel you need to. Just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's good.

 

16 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That's fine if you they irritate you, but that's the cornerstone, backbone and pillar that defines what a loot-based game is. Your opinion is akin to complaining about car driving simulators having manual transmission outclassing automatic transmission. It's such an outlier and out there opinion that just begs the question of whether you should even be playing them in the first place, because that design is intentional and what most people look for.

And yet, here we are. I find myself playing a game I enjoy and agree with on an ideological level (on this subject, at least) and you don't. You claim to represent the vast majority of players and tell me to go play a different game if I don't like playing your way, yet I'm not the one discontent with how the game is being designed. If you're advocating for change, you're going to want something more substantial than argumentum ad hominem. That, and I'm still dubious of your claims. You claim that this design is intentional, yet here we see it intentionally designed otherwise. You claim this is what "most people" look for (thus claiming to speak for an implied majority), but my experience says otherwise. Almost universally, people give the impression of resenting high difficulty settings, but playing them anyway out of a mix of "pride and accomplishment" and habit-forming exploitative progression systems. Arguments to the contrary almost always rely on grandfathered rules. Loot-based games work like this because loot-based games have always worked like this. Because loot-based games have always worked like this, this is what people expect.

Tradition matters only to an extent. I personally see nothing wrong with breaking it. If that means a game mode becomes unpopular and unplayed, then so be it. Not all game modes need to be popular. PvP in Warframe is highly unpopular but you don't see people suggest locking disproportionate PvE rewards behind it. Not often, anyway. Because - and I can't stress this enough - trying to incentivise people to do things they normally don't like doing, a lot of those people will burn out and walk away.

 

To make a long story short:

I'm of the opinion that people should only ever play Hard Mode if and only if said people enjoy Hard Mode on its own merits. People who don't enjoy Hard Mode should never be pressured - either by FOMO or by grind - to engage in it. If that means not a lot of people play it, then that's fine by me.

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Needs both, inadequacy of Challenge-Reward is one of WFs problems. Most rewards are basically symbolic since veteran players dont need anything, there is nowhere to grow and many people DO play harder missions and endurance only for 'fun', cause sadly most of WF is so trivial it's sleep-inducing. And many will play 'hard mode' for challenge alone just like we go to Sim to spawn max level enemies.

But still it feels good to win something bigger than just 5000 credits and 1000th low-tier relic.  

 

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5 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

But there in lies the Problem... if its just a Gear Check... then can you even call it "hard" ?

I don't think you understand you're own Argument... If theres Equipment in the game isnt similarly Powerful then sorry to say that Any and all attempts at challenging Player Skill is gone... 

If you want your game to test player skill then you can not have equipment that is just outright Better than everything else or simple isnt viable in "harder" modes...

My Oppinion is.. Why shouldn't I bring Glaxion Vandal or Braton Prime into Extreme Face Punch Mode ? I like those weapons ? why am I being punished for having a Preference ?

Because Braton Prime or Glaxion Vandal isn't powerful enough. Simple. Like in Terraria, I shouldn't be picking up a Lead Bow and be expecting it to perform against Plantera. It's progression. Getting better gear and getting more equipment is simply how progression in games work.

Just because you like something, doesn't mean that something has to work in all parts of the game. I really like the Lato. It's a fun pistol and I love it. I do not expect it to work against Level 100 anything because it is available at the start of the game. Is it hard at all if the enemies stand little to no chance against mid-game gear? If something survives my Vectis Prime dumping all 3 shots into it, then I have a problem. It becomes difficult because I have to focus more to taking out that target as it tries to take me out. If everything I put my gun at dies in one shot, then nothing will be difficult. Hence why some guns need to be too weak. Because if they aren't too weak, then the top is too strong, and we fall into the same thing we run into now. Most weapons are too strong to be bothered being used to their best for a majority of the game.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Quantaminum said:

I like some challenge as well, but mostly in single player games.

In a game like Warframe, where we run the same missions hundreds of times, how long is it going to take until people get bored of running the same challenging mission with bad rewards, just for the sake of challenge? 10 times? 25 times? 50 times?

For those who don't actually enjoy the challege, not long.. I have no issue with there being extra rewards, i just think it is stupid that hardmode is now trying to cater to everyone instead of being aimed at the people who actually want a challenge. Why is that a problem? Because people who don't like challenge will now feel "forced" to play hardmode for the rewards and then they will start complaining that it is too hard and isn't fun. I hope I'm too busy irl to be around the forums when that happens.

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2 hours ago, kwlingo said:

Player were asking for more challenging not better rewards. Or was challenge a reason to tie to rewards?

In theory no one will play a mode with any kind of challenge if there is no extremely great reward at the end of it?

Hard mode is just the same as camping in a mission for a few extra waves or minutes. It's the same exact mission. No one expected better rewards camping in a mission, or did they?

Because doing what others can’t to get what other players don’t have and then showing it off...it’s a thing.

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4 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

Because Braton Prime or Glaxion Vandal isn't powerful enough. Simple....

Just because you like something, doesn't mean that something has to work in all parts of the game.

Then this will continue to be a Problem...

You want a Hard Mode... But the mode isnt actually hard... its just a Gear Check... Players who don't have the Gear Complain about being excluded... players who do have the gear complain about there still being a lack of challenge... 

This is the warframe Cycle... as long as you feel I shouldnt be allowed to do just fine with my Glaxion Vandal in that content... then this problem will never go away... Simple..

11 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

I really like the Lato. It's a fun pistol and I love it. I do not expect it to work against Level 100 anything because it is available at the start of the game.

Okay.. heres a simple question... Why not ? if you claimed to love the Lato so much then why don't you expect to be able to use it in that content ? 

I love Booben... I want Booben to Vortex Eidolons and Im disapointed everyday I don't see Hydrolyst Spinning Around in Circles in My Vortex... why ? because I actually do love Booben... I wouldnt consider myself a big admirer of Booben if I said "No... Booben's abilities shouldnt work against Sentients.... lets keep using Chroma/Trinity/Volt because thats how much I love Booben" What kind of logic is that ?

17 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

It becomes difficult because I have to focus more to taking out that target as it tries to take me out.

Theres no Difficulty here... only Math... You deal X amount of Damage per second and Enemies deal X amount of Damage per second... Enemies Scale... You don't... Eventually you will get out DPS and one shotted.... Theres no challenge here... only numbers. And there in lies the problem... why do people want to get rewarded for having better numbers ? why do the players who do not have better numbers have to be excluded from participating either Directly or Indirectly from having equal access to these rewards in a mode Labelled as "Hard"...

Dont see what the problem is ? then this cycle shall continue... Simple...

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Anyone else find it funny that there is the line of thought "Don't nerf powerful things, buff other things to its level" but also "X weapon shouldn't be as good as Y weapon because reasons"?

Which is it? If you buff other things instead of nerfing the outlier then the other things might take away from the things you're buffing up to.

Just a small observation from a bored person, don't mind me.

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I was under the impression Warframe has been since day one somewhat of a rebel. Why should everything in Warframe work as they do in other games just because "that's how looters work"?

All I'm tasting is someone who wants an avenue "for bragging rights", shown-off by special loot and rewards because "thats how MMO's work" and then lists a zillion games that are different. And therein lies the essence, Warframe is different, its not your run of the mill MMO or looter-shooter.

Stop trying to make it one.

You want hardmode!? Sure fine, have it, but dont start another hamster-wheel, gearscore, peacock, bragging, elitist environement because "thats how games work".

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1 hour ago, CaptainMinty said:

Just because I want to use the Braton in level 100 missions does not mean it should be possible.

It's actually possible with some knowledge and skill and I can say it because I've done it solo on level 5 lich mission before armor change

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28 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Okay.. heres a simple question... Why not ? if you claimed to love the Lato so much then why don't you expect to be able to use it in that content ? 

I love Booben... I want Booben to Vortex Eidolons and Im disapointed everyday I don't see Hydrolyst Spinning Around in Circles in My Vortex... why ? because I actually do love Booben... I wouldnt consider myself a big admirer of Booben if I said "No... Booben's abilities shouldnt work against Sentients.... lets keep using Chroma/Trinity/Volt because thats how much I love Booben" What kind of logic is that ?

So you have a problem with some weapons being better than others? And some frames being better at certain things than others?

This is not a problem. Weapons available at the start of the game should be weaker than those you acquire later because that creates a sense of progression.

And certain frames being better at certain things is also good for diversity. Vauban is a very good warframe, he’s just not good at fighting eidolons. That’s okay to me. Every frame has an area that they excel in, some are certainly more OP than others, but I think the diversity is fantastic and encourages different play styles for different situations. I see this as a good thing, not a problem.

Edited by (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face
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8 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

I was under the impression Warframe has been since day one somewhat of a rebel. Why should everything in Warframe work as they do in other games just because "that's how looters work"?

All I'm tasting is someone who wants an avenue "for bragging rights", shown-off by special loot and rewards because "thats how MMO's work" and then lists a zillion games that are different. And therein lies the essence, Warframe is different, its not your run of the mill MMO or looter-shooter.

Stop trying to make it one.

This is a really great point that no one has mentioned yet. Sure, warframe is a looter by definition, but show me someone that says they’ve played another game like warframe and I’ll show you a liar. It shouldn’t be compared to other games because it is so fundamentally different.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Zimzala said:

 

This circular argument has existed since the invention of GaaS games.

In this case, if the more challenging modes offer rewards that continue to add to powercreep, it will not do anything to fix the issue of players wanting more challenging content, becuse the hamster wheel will turn in a couple days and those players will be right back where they started, with too much power for the content.

 

Yes agreed. This is the problem with Warframe community.  I want more challenge but then give me mods that make my frame a God and I can't die or I can instakill every enemy. The cycle will never end. 

I'm totally okay with a mode just to test myself and teams skills.

Edited by kwlingo
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vor 37 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face:

This is a really great point that no one has mentioned yet. Sure, warframe is a looter by definition, but show me someone that says they’ve played another game like warframe and I’ll show you a liar. It shouldn’t be compared to other games because it is so fundamentally different.

It's really not. "iT's FuNdAmEnTaLlY dIfFeReNt" isn't an argument, that's just you acknowledging that you don't have an argument. Players (in general, no one cares about what anecdotes you can dredge up) don't chose what's most fun, they will chose what's most efficient, to the point that they'll eventually leave if the most efficient path is unfun enough. They do this in Warframe just like they do in every other game because Warframe is in fact not fundamentally different.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Lutesque:

If you want your game to test player skill then you can not have equipment that is just outright Better than everything else or simple isnt viable in "harder" modes...

My Oppinion is.. Why shouldn't I bring Glaxion Vandal or Braton Prime into Extreme Face Punch Mode ? I like those weapons ? why am I being punished for having a Preference ?

Because if Extreme Face Punch Mode is dumbed down to the point where you can do fine with your Braton Prime, it's no longer Extreme Face Punch Mode. I don't really know why I have to spell this out, but in games with RPG elements, the right gear selection is part of player skill and part of the challenge.

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11 minutes ago, Mos-Eisley said:

No clue. Hard mode should not have better rewards at all. It's for the 'challenge' which should be the only reward

In a game that's all about looting and grinding? How does that make sense? Why would ANYONE want to play a mission where enemies deal more damage and take longer to kill, for the exact same rewards and loot? Challenge and reward go hand in hand together. You don't just ask for rewards OR challenge. Play baby levels, get baby loot. Play big boi levels, get big boi loot. You want big boi loot but it's too hard? Well then it's either time to get better or earn things at a slower pace, playing softer levels. I don't know why this concept is so hard to grasp, reading through this thread.

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I feel like some people are asumming that the rewards in hardmode are going to be some new thingy exclusive to that gamemode, and are already getting triggered for that, when we dont even know what rewards it will give, if any. I was assumming that the rewards will be just an increased amount of resource and credit drops, and that would be more than enough for me to play it.

Edited by General-Pacman
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