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Why does everyone want better rewards for hard mode?


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4 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Well if this is the case, then DE never had to even consider this Hard mode concept. What sounds dumb are players asking for rewards when they were clearly asking for a challenge and not Simulacrum testing. But now you can test weapons outside of Simulacrum mean give me more better loots for it? lol This is a JOKE!

get it give me GIF by Mya

Wasn't the concept of content for reward what broke Eidolon hunts with Scarlett Spear?

If I wanted a reward, it would be some more beach balls.

I'm sorry dude, I just haven't seen people asking for just the challenge before hard mode was even a concept, all I ever saw were people wanting the challenge as well as better rewards.  I prefer both personally, but if it is just the challenge and nothing more, hard pass for me. Not because it's hard oh no, but because theres no point in doing hard content other than just because. This is just my opinion, feel free to disagree or scream or whatever it is people do on the forums.

Edited by (PS4)ErydisTheLucario
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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

I'm sorry dude, I just haven't seen people asking for just the challenge before hard mode was even a concept, all I ever saw were people wanting the challenge as well as better rewards. 

Now you know why they are trying to create Hard Mode. lol

Edited by kwlingo
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

What does that have to do wth my opinion?

 

7 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

I just haven't seen people asking for just the challenge before hard mode was even a concept, all I ever saw were people wanting the challenge as well as better rewards.

 

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3 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

 

 

 

Oh okay I get it now, one youtuber says they want just the challenge and suddenly its gospel, gotcha. Sorry dude, but we obviously disagree for different reasons, nothing one of us can say will change the others mind, we either will or won't play hardmode, plain and simple, and its not gonna hurt anyone.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, (PS4)ErydisTheLucario said:

Oh okay I get it now, one youtuber says they want just the challenge and suddenly its gospel, gotcha. Sorry dude, but we obviously disagree for different reasons, nothing one of us can say will change the others mind, we either will or won't play hardmode, plain and simple, and its not gonna hurt anyone.

The guy they interviewed works at DE who helps create Warframe. lol

Edited by kwlingo
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21 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Now you know why they are trying to create Hard Mode. lol

So let me get this straight, you think a handful of youtubers that wants it so they can do "live" high level weapon testing speaks for the actual playing players that play the game as a hobby and not as a pseudo-job?

That is just... I dont know... wow... that is just so freakin... :facepalm:

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I think it's hillarious that both sides in this thread have tried to convince the other that thier side either does not exist or is not significant.

And people wonder why developers are unable to please players, when this level of gas-lighting and hyperbole exist.

Too funny.

"As the Hamster Wheel Turns" indeed.

I often wonder why most developers bother to even talk to players.

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10 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I think it's hillarious that both sides in this thread have tried to convince the other that thier side either does not exist or is not significant.

And people wonder why developers are unable to please players, when this level of gas-lighting and hyperbole exist.

Too funny.

"As the Hamster Wheel Turns" indeed.

I often wonder why most developers bother to even talk to players.

Only one side is correct though given the genre WF is part of and how the game is set up. 

DE should in reality have no issues to make the right choice since there are a gazillion examples out there of what works and one massive example of what doesnt work. I'd get behind the "no rewards needed" mindset if this game actually wasnt a horde shooter/hack n' slash game and actually had encounters that were unique, but slapping on some levels and saying "do it for the challenge" just doesnt work, since there is no challenge in increased levels alone.

There is a reason people do Helene over Hydron for instance.

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31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So let me get this straight, you think a handful of youtubers that wants it so they can do "live" high level weapon testing speaks for the actual playing players that play the game as a hobby and not as a pseudo-job?

That is just... I dont know... wow... that is just so freakin... :facepalm:

Soo you don't want better rewards with higher difficulty on the pretext that it is like getting a second job, gotcha

but YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLAY WARFRAME LIKE A SECOND JOB, YOU CAN BE FINE BY PLAYING 1-1,5 HOURS A DAY 5 HOURS A WEEK.I am sure that you can find 5 hour of free time in your week right? or you wont be wasting time and posting here. Also, the entire purpose of better rewards for killing harder enemies is TO MAKE YOUR LIFE AS A CASUAL EASIER by making you FARM LESS for the SAME THING. 

example as follows lets say you get 2000 plastids by farming 30 min on Uranus with lvl 25 mobs,BUt in hardmode  with increased drop chance and with lvl 75 mobs that does not make much difference in terms of kill -speed if you use good guns you can get 2000 plastids in 15 min. what sounds better to you? I am really curious to know.

Edited by Follordark
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36 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I think it's hillarious that both sides in this thread have tried to convince the other that thier side either does not exist or is not significant.

And people wonder why developers are unable to please players, when this level of gas-lighting and hyperbole exist.

Too funny.

"As the Hamster Wheel Turns" indeed.

I often wonder why most developers bother to even talk to players.

Right. It's like Americans asking for a stimulus check because they don't want to work odd jobs. Lol  Give me good rewards or I won't play it. DE doesn't care if they play any content aka Fighter Frames. Either you do or you don't. I saw a video a guy player Fighter frame for 12hours live stream. Lol but atleast he had fun.

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48 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I think it's hillarious that both sides in this thread have tried to convince the other that thier side either does not exist or is not significant.

And people wonder why developers are unable to please players, when this level of gas-lighting and hyperbole exist.

Too funny.

"As the Hamster Wheel Turns" indeed.

I often wonder why most developers bother to even talk to players.

If devs aren't able to think for themself and decide logically then I don't know what to say. Or do you think they should add Pokémon to the game just because we asked for it? 

Edited by IceColdHawk
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5 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

 

This is objectively not true. When Arbitrations came out, there was a massive backlash against them. That's why enemy difficulty was changed numerous times and permadeath was made not-perma. Moreover, not a lot of people "ignore" arbitration rewards. A lot of us just buy them with real money instead of doing Arbitrations, because a major component of Warframe's experience is buying power. I don't know what went on in General Discussions, but General Feedback was FILLED with Arbitration complaints when they came out, and still occasionally is.

Now we've gone full circle and try-hard players are complaining that Arbitrations are too easy because DE "kowtowed" to the "casuals" and "ruined" the game mode. Which was obviously going to happen when you attach attractive rewards to unattractive gameplay. DE always make that mistake. For every content release, they try to get EVERYONE to play it. They don't seem to ever release niche content any more, and they really should.

There was cry about no revives. And enemies not being difficult and not scaling. And bad rewards in 10min rotations - that was in fact the biggest gripe, risk and effort not worth the rewards.  All of which got changed - token revives and better enemies scaling  AND better rewards. No one complained about that, everyone only appreciated better rewards.

So yeah there needs to be both - more challenge and better rewards. Easy-mode players will just keep on enjoying the rest 95% of the game which is tailor made trivial for them, if you dont want to level up and play higher level its your choice, you dont need to. The game is big enough for all types of players.

FYI, DE ruined the entire game for anyone who wants at least something above trivial level, since they nuked only **high-level** scaling (above lvl80), so it only destroyed high level play, despite people asking for the opposite, while not making the game much different for all the normal star-chart play. They are not improving the game for anyone, not for beginner, not for normal, not veterans who wanted harder enemies, not easier ones.

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because 'hard mode' is a potential opportunity to fully flush the padding out of Mission Rewards.
so people are going to want to take that opportunity.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, taiiat said:

because 'hard mode' is a potential opportunity to fully flush the padding out of Mission Rewards.
so people are going to want to take that opportunity.

Yes I hope they drop Prime Excalibur parts. Lol

In this case. I'm all for it. 😁

Edited by kwlingo
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23 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I wouldn't consider that dropping the ball. Far from it - I would consider this doing difficulty right. The point of optional difficulty settings is to allow everyone to play at the difficulty they're comfortable with and enjoy running. The goal of difficulty settings is not to "graduate" all players to the hardest difficulty setting in the game. I'd argue the goal is to let players sit somewhere in the middle, with some playing lower and some playing harder.

If the only reason players have to go to Hard Mode is for the difficulty, then I'd consider that a job well done. Those who enjoy fighting harder enemies will do so, those who don't won't. That's a win/win as far as I'm concerned.

 Warframe's not a job, though. It's entertainment. We don't get paid to play this game - not outside of the Secondary Market anyway. We, in fact, pay to play the game - that's its business model. When you over-reward hard modes, what you end up doing is making people feel pressured to play difficulty settings they don't enjoy just for the sake of rewards. I already have a job. I'm not looking for a second one.

Ehh, I'm not sure I fully agree. I don't think most folks will ever touch Hard Mode if it doesn't offer more rewards. If you just tack on a higher enemy level (as they actually seem to be doing), that's ... literally not going to do anything. No one's going to play it if they really have no reason to, and since DE is trying to make it into an entire new system meant to challenge players, it'd just be a waste of time on their part. 

At that point DE should add a level slider for those who want higher difficulty, but the same reward, while allowing players to access Hard and Very Hard Mode with the addition of the level slider. Yet that does still mean Hard Mode is going to need its own specific rewards, drop tables and the like to give us an actual reason to run it. You can't tell me the majority of players would run Sorties if they offered nothing but the regular rewards, same goes for Arbitration and other similar modes.

Just restrict Hard Mode to increased loot drop chances and the like, swap stuff around so there's less random garbage, maybe give us some cosmetics. I'd personally make it so Hard Mode is just the level increase with some loot and drop tweaks, while Very Hard Mode is the same thing with some massive restrictions/debuffs/and enemy buffs that outright reshapes Warframes' gameplay. Hard Mode gets the drop chance increase, Very Hard gets the cosmetics and maybe another slight resource boost on top of the drops.

TLDR, just have DE start small. What people really want is better loot drops, or at least less of a chance to get literal garbage, so make Hard/Very Mode the answer. Warframe is a very casual game, so I think it's best to keep that in mind and try not to turn the game into a bullet-hell simulator.

 

Edited by (XB1)Graysmog
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59 minutes ago, (XB1)Graysmog said:

At that point DE should add a level slider for those who want higher difficulty, but the same reward, while allowing players to access Hard and Very Hard Mode with the addition of the level slider. Yet that does still mean Hard Mode is going to need its own specific rewards, drop tables and the like to give us an actual reason to run it. You can't tell me the majority of players would run Sorties if they offered nothing but the regular rewards, same goes for Arbitration and other similar modes.

I'm personally of the opinion that DE shouldn't have bothered with "Hard Mode" in the first place. What you propose is a far better alternative. Let me pick the level of my missions and I'll be happy. The way Hard Mode is implemented still has the same issues as before, where earlier planets are too easy to be worth bothering with if one builds for the later planets. About the only compromise I can think of is maybe running some earlier planets on Very Hard and then switching to Hard when enemy levels get higher? THE primary reason I even still bother with Liches today (long after I got all their weapons) is precisely because they give me the means of playing missions in the 80-100 range anywhere on the Star Chart.

Seriously - let us pick the level of our missions, let us play the level we're comfortable with and I suspect more people would use it. I like the Mars and Ceres tilesets, I LOVE the Jupiter tileset, but enemies on those nodes are too low level to bother. I could boost them with Hard Mode, but would that put enemies on Sedna and Eris outside my preferred level range? Sure, letting us pick our level means some people would put it as low as possible, and I say more power to those folks. I personally find anything below level 40-ish to be meaningless with my current set of builds, so I'd play at least level 60 even if I had the option of going lower.

On the specific subject of Arbitrations, I'm of the opinion that the majority of players SHOULDN'T be playing them. Arbitrations were sold to us as the super hardcore "dark souls" permadeath mode, specifically designed for people who thought the game was too easy. Placing unique rewards in there was a mistake. It convinced people like me to try playing the mode, hating it and complaining about it on the forums. Eventually, it led to a watering-down of the mode. Those who were looking for a "hardcore" mode no longer seem to appreciate Arbitrations and those of us who disliked them don't really like them any better anyway. That's my whole point. Warframe is a large enough game to afford designing niche content. I would have no problem accepting that "this mission isn't for me," provided I didn't also HAVE to do it for the sake of unique or overly copious rewards. The same goes for Elite Sanctuary Onslaught, as well. I hate ESO and would never run it by choice, and yet I've run a lot of ESO because nothing can give me this much Affinity and Focus with this little effort. If I had a choice I'd never touch the game mode, but it's a loaded choice.

In my ideal world, people would play Hard Mode because they enjoy Hard Mode. It's the same reason why I prefer playing Lich missions over base nodes. In said ideal world, nobody would play a game mode or a difficulty mode they don't enjoy. That's why I want to avoid incentivising people into playing Hard Mode who normally don't like doing so.

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On 2020-06-11 at 9:22 PM, kgabor said:

It's the regular progression formula for games, especially challenging games, though Warframe is not one of them.

You get the items you need for the next, more challenging content, you apply your skills, rinse and repeat.

Except in Warframe this is replaced with gearchecks for the most part and higher enemy levels instead of challenging or complex game mechanics.

Yes, that's the annoying part. I took a month long break from the game because there was literally nothing to do in it. Now I'm back and I find that the new enemies are just stupid hard at level 50-70 and can take down even my insane Atlas. So yeah, the fact that DE shuffles around stuff and invents new gear checks is getting REAL old now. I don't mind it if there's new and fun gear, but when my old gear becomes obsolete because "hurr durr we decided to make the enemy tolerant to your meta" is just annoying.

Meanwhile, I've been playing other fun games like the Borderlands series and Deep Rock Galactic where progress just means you shoot more stuff. 

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