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Why does everyone want better rewards for hard mode?


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5 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Did they even say what type of rewards will be on?

From the stream i watched aside from the obvious of increased exp. They where talking about cosmetics and stuff like that.

So clearing the starchart in hard mode could give cosmetics but as a one time thing. The average player may bother once.

Hence i say have stuff like badges to give to a vendor for kuva, endo, potatoes, ephemeras, skins, etc.

Edited by (PS4)Kakurine2
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On 2020-06-11 at 7:33 PM, kwlingo said:

Player were asking for more challenging not better rewards. Or was challenge a reason to tie to rewards?

In theory no one will play a mode with any kind of challenge if there is no extremely great reward at the end of it?

Hard mode is just the same as camping in a mission for a few extra waves or minutes. It's the same exact mission. No one expected better rewards camping in a mission, or did they?

edit: If so, I believe the mode should be called something else, possibly Reward Mode? Next Deluxe Reward Mode in a few months?

Why did DE want Hard Mode in the First place?

Here is the video for why we are getting Hard Mode.

https://youtu.be/rzrAL0NsU8M

 

Because everyone is basically lying to themselves for saying that they just want a challenge, nothing more.

We're getting hard mode because Steve didn't like that most of the content creators are using the Simulacrum for basically everything.

They received feedback that the reason behind that is that simulacrum has easy access to highlevel enemies without having to play a mission for a long period of time before things get interesting.

It's going to be popular for a period, then people will slowly back away from Hard and Ultra hard mode if there's no exclusive rewards to obtain in those modes, as there's really no point.

There has always beem ways to challenge oneself without the need for increasing difficulty, Dragon Keys exist, not picking the best loadout exists, heck I decided one day to do a Spy mission, with excalibur, without operator, it was fun, but I dare to say I wouldn't do it on a daily basis.

The worst part of this whole story, is that it's never going to end, it's never going to be challenging enough to satisfy those that want it. And with this, I stand by my statement that people don't just want challenging content, they want to have the ability to brag about their accomplishments, they don't want things to be challenging only for their personal reason, they want things to be challenging to everyone, so they can say "Git Gud Boi"!

Me? I just want a game that I can enjoy, without drama, something that tickles that lizard brain we all have, something that "Rewards" me for the time spent playing it, if playing a challenging mode gives me the same reward as a quick and brainless mission, I don't see how my "Effort" has been rewarded, if anything, it's a slap in the face.

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1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

 

Risk more, win more. 

Risk less, win less. 

 

Reward big when talent and perseverance is required

Reward moderate when talent is moderate. 

Reward low when talent is optional 

 

Shall we change this universal logic? Shall we even dare to question it in the first place? 

Talent? Now that is just adorable.

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

Talent? Now that is just adorable.

Indeed. 

 

Quick reaction, decision making on a whim, target movement prediction, priority, position, preservation, preference. Comprehension of kiting and pursuit curves, time traversing of the enemy on the map, route prediction, target hit accuracy. Management of resources and knowledge of the map architecture under changing condition. Balance between plan, strategy and tactics. Phsychomotor coordinating between hand eye under comprehension and apprehension of unexpected situations. 

 

Yes it is a talent that you develop when you understand what you are doing. Such talent traduces to Architecture in modeling design. Such talent traduces in structural engineering doing stiffness analysis. Yes, such talent traduces towards prototyping and testing. Video games are no different. The activity is meta cognitive. 

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Kakurine2 said:

From the stream i watched aside from the obvious of increased exp. They where talking about cosmetics and stuff like that.

So clearing the starchart in hard mode could give cosmetics but as a one time thing. The average player may bother once.

Hence i say have stuff like badges to give to a vendor for kuva, endo, potatoes, ephemeras, skins, etc.

Hurm, cuz as far I recall, I remaber people saying that a ship deco and simple skins, etc, are not "good enough" and all that jazz, XP is welcome, but not really great for levelin I don;t think?

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Il y a 1 heure, SneakyErvin a dit :

Gimping people is not the solution. What people are looking for is content where their obtained gear and builds can be useful and tested. Downgrading is the laziest of the lazy solutions and will pin people into a select few frames,

Exactly. 

Il y a 1 heure, SneakyErvin a dit :

They were fun for the purpose they served, but doing them over and over again not so much since there is zero theorycrafting or builds tied to it.

I may be wrong (and tell me guys if I am) but did the community really enjoyed it ? I heard people didnt liked it and most actually chose to buy Grendel to avoid doing it. And if it's true, I think the problem was because they felt like it was a forced farm to do for people that couldnt or didnt want to pay for it with plats.

And that would the reason why we dont want the upcoming Hard Modes to give new rewards, to not make it a forced thing to do but only a choice and so, make it a peaceful game mode without any expectations or frustrations, only for the purpose to have fun for whoever wants exactly that.

il y a 29 minutes, Zimzala a dit :

Things that change the game like this have a very real possibility to change other aspects of the game, even if only at the 'meta' level, and therefore impact the whole playerbase. Looking at any changes to the game with this kind of myopic view is not the right thing to do, IMO.

I already explained how Pablo introduced upcoming Hard Modes and again, it will be no new content, just a shortcut to a difficulty we already have so is adding a shortcut to something already existing really changing other aspects or anything in the game other than helping people that have less time for playing accessing it faster ?

il y a 42 minutes, Zimzala a dit :

If there are, in fact, 'subjectively, numerically better, new' mods or other things that get added as rewards, then it really impacts the playerbase as a whole as well.

Exactly and that's why, I and the ones that asked it, DONT want new rewards, mods or anything. Just the shortcut we asked.

il y a 49 minutes, Zimzala a dit :

Right now, it just 'sounds like' a +50/100 level bump and little to nothing more, but until it's implemented we just won't know.

To be more precise, a SHORTCUT to the level bump since you can already have this level in most missions by playing it LONGER.

Well, that's the purpose of a forum, helping devs by debating until they decide the better thing to do before implementing it (ideally). Pablo and Steve already gave hints of what it's originally supposed to be according to what old players asked years ago but new spoiled players that were not concerned started to ask more already so let's see if greedy people will manage to ruin it just because greediness over simple fun.

il y a 55 minutes, Zimzala a dit :

Even the use case of 'everyone wanting to run the new hard modes' impacts the community, so what, exactly, the modes are going to offer matters to the whole playerbase, not just those wanting more challenge.

Everyone want them simply because they are spoiled and it's "something new" they want for themselves while they didnt bother looking for why it's coming out.

The modes dont have to offer anything, that's the point. People have to learn to enjoy the game with what they already have at some point and learn how to have fun in Warframe. Nightwaves, Liches, and other incoming new or old game modes should be enough over a simple upcoming shortcut.

il y a une heure, Zimzala a dit :

Since there is no clear line between the numbers of people that just want challenge and those that also want better rewards for that supposed challenge, this is a completely circular argument that, IMO, has very little meaning until the mode actually gets implemented, because until then it's all just hand-wringing hyperbole about 'what might be'.

The clear line is the old players that asked for this shortcut years ago between the more recent and greedy players that just want it because its a "new thing" (while it's not) that may give new rewards. Pretty clear line to me and no circular argument.

il y a une heure, Zimzala a dit :

because until then it's all just hand-wringing hyperbole about 'what might be'.

That would be exactly that if DE didnt already explained the purpose of these modes and their concept, wich they did.. Only reason it could be changed, is that DE make the mistake to listen to the greedy side and make Warframe more of a mess caused by more overpowered things that we already have.

il y a 33 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

 

Risk more, win more. 

Risk less, win less. 

 

Reward big when talent and perseverance is required

Reward moderate when talent is moderate. 

Reward low when talent is optional 

 

Shall we change this universal logic? Shall we even dare to question it in the first place? 

?? And you will have more... XP that is. So what's your point ?

And what you call "universal logic" is a logic that recent games created to hide the fact that their content is not fun and where rewards are used to make easily brainwashed players forget what real fun is and make them run for more and more of them so they would keep playing. An exemple: Ever knew or played old arcade station games where you had to insert coins to play before all these nowadays games existed ? The ones where you could die any moment losing your in game life (coin) while being rewarded of nothing but where we kept inserting more coins ? Why you ask ? Because it was genuinely fun. Simple as that. 

As for Warframe, it's content is as fun as it always was since we discovered it in the alpha, the problem is that the game had to be popular so it had to adapt to these brainwashed players incoming and give more rewards to keep them but it would be nice if Warframe started to accustom players to have genuin fun again instead of spoiling them more.

Always sad when someone have to actually explain or remind other people what fun is...

il y a 7 minutes, SocialFox a dit :

Because everyone is basically lying to themselves for saying that they just want a challenge, nothing more.

Not everyone. Some have a life and no more time to wait while slaying low level ones to get over lvl 130 ennemies. The shortcut is needed and it would be time to get it.

il y a 7 minutes, SocialFox a dit :

There has always beem ways to challenge oneself without the need for increasing difficulty, Dragon Keys exist, not picking the best loadout exists, heck I decided one day to do a Spy mission, with excalibur, without operator, it was fun, but I dare to say I wouldn't do it on a daily basis.

True but doing it for years it's getting kinda redondant and hard to find the time to waste 1 hour to get to the right level ennemies with real life duties just to have fun.

il y a 7 minutes, SocialFox a dit :

heck I decided one day to do a Spy mission, with excalibur, without operator, it was fun, but I dare to say I wouldn't do it on a daily basis.

Oooooh can tell you dont know me ^^ Are you actually trying to seduce me ? Ever tried hunting eidolons with Exca ?

il y a 7 minutes, SocialFox a dit :

The worst part of this whole story, is that it's never going to end, it's never going to be challenging enough to satisfy those that want it. And with this, I stand by my statement that people don't just want challenging content, they want to have the ability to brag about their accomplishments, they don't want things to be challenging only for their personal reason, they want things to be challenging to everyone, so they can say "Git Gud Boi"!

You do a lot of arrogant statements there, talking for people you dont understand. Just be careful to not put everyone in the same bag friend. If there are no rewards for it, then it means nothing to brag with about accomplisments. That's another reason why I'm against any rewards for it, not even a ship decoration. Problem solved.

il y a 7 minutes, SocialFox a dit :

Me? I just want a game that I can enjoy, without drama, something that tickles that lizard brain we all have, something that "Rewards" me for the time spent playing it, if playing a challenging mode gives me the same reward as a quick and brainless mission, I don't see how my "Effort" has been rewarded, if anything, it's a slap in the face.

Scuse me sir, but who exactly asked about you ? :3 Just kidding ^^ but more seriously, what actually interest us in this topic is what does "enjoying the game" means for you ? And your answer is having more rewards, wich puts you in the greedy side of the community and being greedy is never a good thing. If you need effort to play or enjoy the game, then it means you are not enjoying it. So basically you play because your lizard brain wants the crickets that jump at your face at the end of the mission. Having fun IS a reward. As proof: the reason why most of the greedy players that rushed the content quit playing Warframe is that they werent rewarded enough anymore because they exhausted the reward stock too fast.

And about the slap in the face, well... it's a pretty good solution to come back to reality and would help some players to enjoy the game and not only the rewards IMO. 😄 

il y a 6 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

Quick reaction, decision making on a whim, target movement prediction, priority, position, preservation, preference. Comprehension of kiting and pursuit curves, time traversing of the enemy on the map, route prediction, target hit accuracy. Management of resources and knowledge of the map architecture under changing condition. Balance between plan, strategy and tactics. Phsychomotor coordinating between hand eye under comprehension and apprehension of unexpected situations. 

You get that with experience by practicing and learning 🙂 I know because I learned eveything you mentioned over these 7 years and I'm bad at other video games. Everyone can do it after such a long time if they dedicate themselves enough. Wich is different than talent, who not everyone can have it. 

il y a 6 minutes, Felsagger a dit :

Yes it is a talent that you develop when you understand what you are doing. Such talent traduces to Architecture in modeling design. Such talent traduces in structural engineering doing stiffness analysis. Yes, such talent traduces towards prototyping and testing. Video games are no different. The activity is meta cognitive. 

If it was natural talent, It would be the same for me playing other games but i still suck with other games. Talent is for exemple a kid with a brain capable of seeing a design for architecture in his head before actually being an architect or before even studiying it or another exemple is being Beethoven who made better masterpieces by improvising while being more deaf than other pianists. And thats when you tell them: "OMG, you have a talent for this ! You're a genius !". Experience and Talent are two different things, dont mistake one for the other.

 

 

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The real hard mode is actually reading all that sven_lazar writes.

Seasonal cosmetics or decorations for seasonal tokens would be nice rewards for hard mode. I would be happier for rewards that impact gameplay, but I won't get greedy.

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9 minutes ago, Sven_Lazar said:

There's Nightwaves for that, would be bad to steal future content of nightwaves for something else that dont need it.

As I said, there are dragon keys and trash loadouts to make missions hard, it would be bad to steal future resources to code hard mode.

They could make nightwave seasons more often instead.

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il y a 6 minutes, sitfesz a dit :

As I said, there are dragon keys and trash loadouts to make missions hard, it would be bad to steal future resources to code hard mode.

I already answered to that in a previous message, I repeated myself enough. Plus, they already started to code it and probably just finished the biggest part already because it's planned from long ago as part of the "to do list".

il y a 7 minutes, sitfesz a dit :

They could make nightwave seasons more often instead.

You mean previous Nightwaves right ? Otherwise you wouldnt make any sense to what you said in the first sentence. Even if they repeat Nightwaves seasons, pretty sure they would continue to prepare for next ones anyway but just slower or that would be to prepare for something else more important like duviri or new war, THAT would be logic. An end to Nightwaves will come someday for sure, all nice things have an end but hopefully later and I'm sure you dont want it to end now either for a mere shortcut as Hard Mode.

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51 minutes ago, Sven_Lazar said:

 ?? And you will have more... XP that is. So what's your point ?

Read again the post. 

Reward is based on effort, risk and talent. What would be the reward? Anything in the game that helps progression. 

 

Quote

And what you call "universal logic" is a logic that recent games created to hide the fact that their content is not fun and where rewards are used to make easily brainwashed players forget what real fun is and make them run for more and more of them so they would keep playing. An exemple: Ever knew or played old arcade station games where you had to insert coins to play before all these nowadays games existed ? The ones where you could die any moment losing your in game life (coin) while being rewarded of nothing but where we kept inserting more coins ? Why you ask ? Because it was genuinely fun. Simple as that. 

Wrong. 

Universal logic is based on effort and tenacity. Universal logic is based on talent, dedication and commitment. Every society, technology and progress is based on performance and the basic laws of behaviorism. A medal is given for the recognition of performance. A reward is given for the amount of effort under stress is performed. Talent is paid. Performance is paid, risk is paid and of course commitment is paid. Should we extrapolate other type of logic in a society that foster advancement of technology under strict knowledge? 

Extrinsic game play is the science of engagement where the player experience fun when there is challenge. This challenge is understood by the four P. Preference, preservation, position and priority. You distinguish between intrinsic game play and extrinsic game play. Fun depends on other elements that are missing in the game such as A.I. enemy tactical accuracy and enemy awareness of the map. However behaviorism teaches us that reward is correlated with effort. Doing any other form of pedagogy is counterproductive for the game because it gives a false sense of achievement. The balance is committed between extrinsic game play and intrinsic game play where the player plays to get certain items. 

You don't even know what fun is. 

Let me lecture you on the definition of fun. Fun is another word for learning. Meta cognition is based on the different scales of learning and how we adapt, adopt and evolve under certain changing conditions. This is the work of Raph Koster. If you are going to lecture me on what is meta cognition I advise you to come informed. Right now you are misrepresenting every concept you are managing in your sentences. In our childhood there is no division between learning and playing. Learning and playing are parallel activities that we programmed throughout our education. Game design is no different because everything in a game is based on strict science and presidents. 

https://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/gdco12/Koster_Raph_Theory_Fun_10.pdf

 

Quote

 

You get that with experience by practicing and learning 🙂 I know because I learned eveything you mentioned over these 7 years and I'm bad at other video games. Everyone can do it after such a long time if they dedicate themselves enough. Wich is different than talent, who not everyone can have it. 

Not everyone can do it. That is the reality of it. 

Talent can be learned and acquired but is innate too. Speed comprehension throughout a learning curve is another discussion that is related to meta cognition. Talent is a balance between nature and nurture. Brain construction or wiring is based on genes but at the same time a person is not impaired to acquire any other abilities that are off his or her own nature. 

Quick reaction, time management for precise selection of strategies is talent. That is learned and practiced. However talent grows when there is a balance between intuition and deduction. Some people understand this game in months whole other takes four years to comprehend how an F2P GAAS game works. 

http://perpustakaan.unitomo.ac.id/repository/Commentary on “Talent—innate or acquired Theoretical considerations and their implications for talent managemen.pdf

 

Quote

If it was natural talent, It would be the same for me playing other games but i still suck with other games. Talent is for exemple a kid with a brain capable of seeing a design for architecture in his head before actually being an architect or before even studiying it or another exemple is being Beethoven who made better masterpieces by improvising while being more deaf than other pianists. And thats when you tell them: "OMG, you have a talent for this ! You're a genius !". Experience and Talent are two different things, dont mistake one for the other.

That happens because you do not dedicate time to other games. When you have certain conditions you work around them. Let me show you an individual who is one of the best Chun Li in the world. I can't compete against him because my abilities on Street Fighter V are absent. I haven't dedicated time to such game. 

Mike Begum. 

Dedication provides talent. This is a prime example. 

Edited by Felsagger
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3 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

Risk more, win more. 

Risk less, win less. 

 

Reward big when talent and perseverance is required

Reward moderate when talent is moderate. 

Reward low when talent is optional 

 

Shall we change this universal logic? Shall we even dare to question it in the first place? 

Too bad DE doesn't understand this

Edited by Monolake
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7 minutes ago, Monolake said:

Too bad DE doesn't understand it

Of course they don't. 

 

Because their game is PACHINKO, an RNG, time gated, XP gated, gear gated game. Skill for them is irrelevant. They want to run their business with a stick and carrot scheme where placebo, ego and bragging rights are the driving force behind the game. This is how they do their money. 

 

 

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I think the reason people are asking for this is misguided.

Yes, harder content is tied to better rewards in most online games, and that is good for most of us.

Warframe is not that way.  It does not have scaling rewards beyond C rotation because the devs insist this game is only for casuals even though most of the casuals are gone and only the most loyal remain as the game numbers continue to dip (obviously this is a generalization, new players start every hour of every day).

Their philosophy is misguided, yes.

The thing people really want is scaling rewards.  Even if it's not a lot, it's something that pushes you to be better.

In warframe since there are no scaling rewards there should not be better rewards in hard mode.

There should however, be scaling rewards period.  This would alleviate the problem entirely.  Even if you just added an extra 1% to drop rolls and item counts every 100 levels, it would at least be something. 

The devs secretly think they are avoiding creating an elitist environment, when really elitism is abound all over the game in every area.  Essentially, this is their security blanket and they are not willing to give it up under any circumstances, so just learn to deal with it because unfortunately they hold the all the cards on this.

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18 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

I may be wrong (and tell me guys if I am) but did the community really enjoyed it ? I heard people didnt liked it and most actually chose to buy Grendel to avoid doing it. And if it's true, I think the problem was because they felt like it was a forced farm to do for people that couldnt or didnt want to pay for it with plats.

And that would the reason why we dont want the upcoming Hard Modes to give new rewards, to not make it a forced thing to do but only a choice and so, make it a peaceful game mode without any expectations or frustrations, only for the purpose to have fun for whoever wants exactly that.

?? And you will have more... XP that is. So what's your point ?

And what you call "universal logic" is a logic that recent games created to hide the fact that their content is not fun and where rewards are used to make easily brainwashed players forget what real fun is and make them run for more and more of them so they would keep playing. An exemple: Ever knew or played old arcade station games where you had to insert coins to play before all these nowadays games existed ? The ones where you could die any moment losing your in game life (coin) while being rewarded of nothing but where we kept inserting more coins ? Why you ask ? Because it was genuinely fun. Simple as that. 

As for Warframe, it's content is as fun as it always was since we discovered it in the alpha, the problem is that the game had to be popular so it had to adapt to these brainwashed players incoming and give more rewards to keep them but it would be nice if Warframe started to accustom players to have genuin fun again instead of spoiling them more.

Always sad when someone have to actually explain or remind other people what fun is...

I had decently fun with the grendel missions, though there were frustrating parts that DE had probably overlooked, like not being allowed to use stances on melee, mods that are free and actually are tied to muscle memory and playstyle preference and not just pure power. I would not run the missions again though as some hard mode unless the extra time spent had a hefty increase in rewards tied to it. Since it all comes down to time vs reward in these types of games, especially when the combat is very basic and on the horde side of things.

While I agree that new rewards arent needed, hard mode needs to have larger sums of rewards so they are worthwhile running over lower content. I mean, if I sit down to specifically grind Kuva I will not do it in hard mode or ultra if it gives me the same amount as normal, since I'm after the kuva and have no intention to slow down my grind just to fight higher enemies. And since all of WF is about getting resources or other drops, playing hard mode or ultra just for the "challenge" will be something very few people will bother with since they have other primary goals where a higher level mission will gimp the time efficiency.

WF is at the root an arpg looter shooter hack and slash, if there is no loot to hunt there really is no point in doing the missions. The combat just isnt engaging or rewarding on its own, pretty much the same as it is in all other arpgs. If there is no loot to hunt it isnt worth doing.

Also, there was a reward in all those old arcade games, beating them and ending up on high score lists etc. It isnt so much about "brainwashed" players as it is about gaming having evolved. The games you refer to are stoneage and even at the time there were games around for loot hunting and progression which made them fun. My mother was addicted to hunting health upgrades (hearts) in Legend of Zelda when us kids were in school. The thing is, the need for rewards is different based on the genre, in some it is about beating the game in others it is about the loot or beating the other player. The reward in WF is the loot and the progression.

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2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Quick reaction, decision making on a whim, target movement prediction, priority, position, preservation, preference. Comprehension of kiting and pursuit curves, time traversing of the enemy on the map, route prediction, target hit accuracy. Management of resources and knowledge of the map architecture under changing condition. Balance between plan, strategy and tactics. Phsychomotor coordinating between hand eye under comprehension and apprehension of unexpected situations. 

And games I played always use enemies with thick health and big damage, and any kind of this in warframe is a big sin while it's praised in other games so what to say?

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Reward is based on effort, risk and talent. What would be the reward? Anything in the game that helps progression. 

And what will it be in warframe considering there's nothing that makes you grind forever? Other games have item rarity to pad the time with massive grind for 5 star legendary gear with all gem sockets filled with the biggest gem bonus and magical enhancement as the reward so what would be a reward in warframe that helps progression?

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Of course they don't. 

 

Because their game is PACHINKO, an RNG, time gated, XP gated, gear gated game. Skill for them is irrelevant. They want to run their business with a stick and carrot scheme where placebo, ego and bragging rights are the driving force behind the game. This is how they do their money. 

As if other games don't do this

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Fun is another word for learning.

Since when? I don't see any definition of fun as another word for learning

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

 

fun
/fən/
 
noun
  1. enjoyment, amusement, or lighthearted pleasure.
    "the children were having fun in the play area"
INFORMAL
  1. amusing, entertaining, or enjoyable.
    "it was a fun evening"
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1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

I sense a bait.

Well that's exactly the irony. 

 

Reward should be correlated with effort, perseverance and talent. 

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1 minute ago, 844448 said:

And games I played always use enemies with thick health and big damage, and any kind of this in warframe is a big sin while it's praised in other games so what to say?

Is this the case of FEAR? Is this the case of Horizon Zero Dawn? Is this the case for Doom Eternal? Is this the same case for God of War IV? Wait have you played those games? 

The current discussion gravitates around the following premises. 

1. The enemy has an initiative of increasing firepower. 

2. The enemy behaves with tactical accuracy. 

3. The enemy changes behavior according to the warframe tier they face. 

4. The skill tree of the A.I. considers parametric adjustments more than just armor, shield, health and damage. 

 

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

And what will it be in warframe considering there's nothing that makes you grind forever? Other games have item rarity to pad the time with massive grind for 5 star legendary gear with all gem sockets filled with the biggest gem bonus and magical enhancement as the reward so what would be a reward in warframe that helps progression?

A 100% guaranteed package of three formas. 

A 100% guaranteed Rifle Riven

A 100% guaranteed exilus adapter. 

A 100% guaranteed Eidolon lens

An Orokin Catalyst. 

 

1 minute ago, 844448 said:

As if other games don't do this

Since when? I don't see any definition of fun as another word for learning

fun
/fən/
 
noun
  1. enjoyment, amusement, or lighthearted pleasure.
    "the children were having fun in the play area"
INFORMAL
  1. amusing, entertaining, or enjoyable.
    "it was a fun evening"

A THEORY OF FUN

Raph Koster

Consult page 2. 

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Calm your jets @Felsagger, you are starting to build a scarecrow - regardless of it is on purpose or not.

I can tell you why people do "hard things" in games without achievements (like most old console games and the speed run community), why they go for high performance (Wow, Eso and Final Fantasy) when they already have killed the last boss and why a lot of people are competitive even if there is no tangible reward at the end. It is the same reason why old time explorers existed.

Because they wondered if they can.

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 I’m hoping with it’s delay DE is rethinking their plan and roll out.  It sounded like the liche system without thralls, mini bosses and the cool weapons at the end. It’s kind of already in the game.  I will say rewards were not really part of the early player convos it was short cuts to get to level 100 plus enemies over 1 hr Arbi survivals. Just give out a random forma or statue here or there and players will be cool with it. Well know soon enough.  

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I don't mind if the rewards ended the same or slightly higher, i love the challenge and it's potential to be an in game ability and weapon testing, instead of spending time in Simulacrum, all day... .

But, if it ended up you have to clear the star chart twice so that u can only unlock Arbitration bc of it?

DE, i will kill you... .

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16 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Calm your jets @Felsagger, you are starting to build a scarecrow - regardless of it is on purpose or not.

I can tell you why people do "hard things" in games without achievements (like most old console games and the speed run community), why they go for high performance (Wow, Eso and Final Fantasy) when they already have killed the last boss and why a lot of people are competitive even if there is no tangible reward at the end. It is the same reason why old time explorers existed.

Because they wondered if they can.

 

I'm an old school player. I don't need rewards for the hardest difficulty. The reward is the battle and the skill to stay in it. 

 

But War Frame is a GAAS F2P game. This needs a balance between intrisic and extrinsic game play. 

 

Edited by Felsagger
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3 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Not everyone. Some have a life and no more time to wait while slaying low level ones to get over lvl 130 ennemies. The shortcut is needed and it would be time to get it.

True but doing it for years it's getting kinda redondant and hard to find the time to waste 1 hour to get to the right level ennemies with real life duties just to have fun.

Oooooh can tell you dont know me ^^ Are you actually trying to seduce me ? Ever tried hunting eidolons with Exca ?

You do a lot of arrogant statements there, talking for people you dont understand. Just be careful to not put everyone in the same bag friend. If there are no rewards for it, then it means nothing to brag with about accomplisments. That's another reason why I'm against any rewards for it, not even a ship decoration. Problem solved.

Scuse me sir, but who exactly asked about you ? :3 Just kidding ^^ but more seriously, what actually interest us in this topic is what does "enjoying the game" means for you ? And your answer is having more rewards, wich puts you in the greedy side of the community and being greedy is never a good thing. If you need effort to play or enjoy the game, then it means you are not enjoying it. So basically you play because your lizard brain wants the crickets that jump at your face at the end of the mission. Having fun IS a reward. As proof: the reason why most of the greedy players that rushed the content quit playing Warframe is that they werent rewarded enough anymore because they exhausted the reward stock too fast.

And about the slap in the face, well... it's a pretty good solution to come back to reality and would help some players to enjoy the game and not only the rewards IMO. 😄

Then I suppose you're one of the very few people who genuinely enjoy the challenge with nothing extra attached to it, you have my respect on that matter.

I probably didn't use the right words when I made my post, so let me be clear on one thing:
I honestly don't care what we get, as long as I can't do it on autopilot. Surprize me, make things unpredictable, make things interesting again, heck bring back old enemy armor/hp scaling for ultra hard, I don't care, as long as I can start the mission, and not faceroll everything in sight. Being rewarded for the effort is like an Adrenaline fix. I may be greedy, but I'm not "Nef Anyo" greedy, more like "Maroo" greedy, only I get to do the cool stuff.

Oh, and for the record, I have tried Eidolons with off-meta frames (including Grendel) and off-meta weapons (ignis) just because I could, it didn't mean I could successfully capture Hydro, but I did capture Terry in over 20 minutes with that loadout (I did have to use melee at some point cause I realized soon after the ignis just wasn't going to cut it), and to be honest, it didn't feel fun at all.

I was just trying to relay what I feel was the reason why people that I know would want this (while not meaning literally "Everyone"), I spoke out of line, and for that I apologize.

Edited by SocialFox
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4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Indeed. 

 

Quick reaction, decision making on a whim, target movement prediction, priority, position, preservation, preference. Comprehension of kiting and pursuit curves, time traversing of the enemy on the map, route prediction, target hit accuracy. Management of resources and knowledge of the map architecture under changing condition. Balance between plan, strategy and tactics. Phsychomotor coordinating between hand eye under comprehension and apprehension of unexpected situations. 

 

Yes it is a talent that you develop when you understand what you are doing. Such talent traduces to Architecture in modeling design. Such talent traduces in structural engineering doing stiffness analysis. Yes, such talent traduces towards prototyping and testing. Video games are no different. The activity is meta cognitive. 

 

Stand in a corner, delete all enemies, "Talent". This is the kind of excuses all raiders and such use to explain the "difficult" garbage they do, which is never difficult. You just do the same thing, use every exploit to make it easier, for the sweet rewards. Even if you don't use exploits, you still just do everything that you can to make the "difficulty" either less or dissapear in the confines of what is allowed because it's faster to get the rewards that way. You will (of course) say that you are different but come on, you are not fooling anyone, after all, that's what everyone says.

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Il y a 4 heures, Felsagger a dit :

Reward is based on effort, risk and talent. What would be the reward? Anything in the game that helps progression. 

In a game where progression is at a stop, there's no need for more rewards that helps progression so it's time to learn to find reward in fun 🙂

As I said we already have enough rewards as it is and concerning upcoming Hard modes, the reward should be just fun as it should be for once. Running after more rewards than necessary is called greediness and it's never a good thing 🙂 

Medals and rewards are actually an excuse and a proof of existence for people that are interested in competition and showing off to the world, a lot of people actually deserve a medal but they wont accept it because they have satisfaction and having fun in what they do, and are proud of themselves for what only themselves know they do or can do. They dont need to prove anything to anyone else because satisfaction and having fun is an enough reward and thats a most beautiful thing as a human being. Where greediness is the opposite.

Ever heard of "the most important thing is not to win but participate and having fun" ? That's an exemple.

Citation

You don't even know what fun is. 

I will lecture you on what this is. Fun is another word for learning.

Well... coming from someone getting infuriated and threathening someone over a calm and chill discussion on a forum, I'm pretty sure the one that knows what fun is, is not you ^^ (no offense) 

Sharing our opinions, thoughts and knowledge should be fun too, sadly, for some people, it's just a matter of competition and that is all you are talking about in your posts: "competition", "medal", "efforts". Can't you just enjoy life without running after something ? Is is that hard ? 😕  I can't imagine you actually having fun in the game with this attitude, and I mean real fun ^^' Do you get toxic over a guy that had something you didnt get or getting upset because someone dared to have an opposite but right argument with you ?

Just using nice elaborated words dosnt make you right or intelligent, but our behaviour as humans does. 

You dont need rewards to learn or to do something. We are not dogs that needs treats to do something right, we are supposed to be more intelligent and more advanced species. We shouldnt learn to be polite or act like good humans to be rewarded and go to heavens for it, but just do it cause it's the right thing to do. That's why most of the new generations are not, they just think "why should I be polite if I dont get any rewards for it, let's just have fun being toxic to everyone.  

Citation

Not everyone can do it. That is the reality of it.

Everyone can. Proof is that I own a clan that helps new players to learn the game and my goal is that they get at my level and the ones that stayed till the end of the teaching managed to get what you mentionned. The reason ? Because they were patient enough while I gave them the necessary knowledge and tips as a shortcut to get the caracteristics you mentioned. If its learned it's not innate natural talent but experience and learning. When it's innate natural talent, you dont need teachings, your talent figures it out by itself. Like Einstein who was bad at math or Beethoven who pretty much refused to get teaching. You use a lot of pretty and elaborate words but you still didnt show any existing exemple of what you say as proof like I did and still do now and you didnt even answered or mentioned them.

Citation

That happens because you do not dedicate time to other games. When you have certain conditions you work around them. Let me show you an individual who is one of the best Chun Li in the world. I can't compete against him because my abilities on Street Fighter V are absent. I haven't dedicated time to such game.

Um.. I dont mind the previous passive toxicity but now you are starting to arrogantly stating facts that you dont know by claiming to know how much I played others games or what I do in real life just to feel like being in the right, proof that you are taking the subject of this topic to get personal over me, see the issue yet ? I think you need to clear your mind, drink a cup of tea ^^ You can't always be right man or always be the best. Just forget the whole competition thing, it's ruining lives as well as yours someday. Just be happy 🙂   

Citation

I haven't dedicated time to such game.

If you did youd beat him 😉 dont lose hope, I'm sure you can do it someday. People before you actually managed to beat their idol by giving time to themselves. You just need to practice. 👍 

But please, next time dont be toxic and clear your mind before coming back 🙂 I'm still open to discussion but about the game not my private life. 

Il y a 4 heures, (PS4)JohnWickHitman a dit :

This behavior is why he ended up in iggy land after his very first posting/answer he gave to me.

His elitist attitude and toxic behavior was evident.

Iggy land he went. I deal w/ enough a-holes like him in my job/daily life, I don't need it on a forum or in game.

Well, If I'm the toxic one, what are you doing posting just to personally targeting me on a Warframe topic while not even talking about Warframe or the subject of the topic anymore ? ^^' You dont even answer to any argument, getting mad and just posted to target me, THAT is toxic. Dont get offended or all worked up, just be open-minded instead guys. 🤙

Il y a 3 heures, Felsagger a dit :

You can't even get the reference. 

First: the way you say it is clearly toxic and meant to lower me, wich is not nice and not mature wich says a lot about you. 😕  

Second: I was not sure thats why it was a question.

And third: I already said I was not an english speaker so... proof that you dont read or try to understand anything but only tries to prove how better you are, where all you did is proving the opposite by yourself alone. 

Fourth: So you just polluted the topic posting a single post with just one single sentence just to make fun of me as a personnal attack a bit later ? Sad 😕  

What is next ? Racism over me not being an english speaker ? C'mon guys.. 😞 You will just get judged as toxic and being ignored if you keep spamming this topic just targeting me 😕 We are here to talk about warframe as a reminder.

Il y a 3 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

I had decently fun with the grendel missions, though there were frustrating parts that DE had probably overlooked, like not being allowed to use stances on melee, mods that are free and actually are tied to muscle memory and playstyle preference and not just pure power.

Must have been the same case for a lot of players. Well at least it served to DE to know the effects on popularity of that sort of non-mods game mode.

Il y a 3 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

While I agree that new rewards arent needed, hard mode needs to have larger sums of rewards so they are worthwhile running over lower content. I mean, if I sit down to specifically grind Kuva I will not do it in hard mode or ultra if it gives me the same amount as normal

Some players will. If youre not part of the ones that originally asked for it, logic would be to please players that asked for it since we cant please everyone anyway and everyone else already has enough content to farm. But one thing im sure is that you will decide to farm in hard or ultra when you get to a certain progression point even if theres no more reward, you just have to try it or just ignore it until it interest you. 🙂 

Il y a 3 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

since I'm after the kuva and have no intention to slow down my grind just to fight higher enemies. And since all of WF is about getting resources or other drops, playing hard mode or ultra just for the "challenge" will be something very few people will bother with since they have other primary goals

Then just keep farm kuva wherever you want while letting other players go in Ultra even if they will be a minority, I just dont see the problem or the reason to ask to advance to the point that will make you stop playing faster with asking more rewards. Just because they are a minority they dont have the right to do something else than the other people ? No one forces anyone to play the upcoming Hard or Ultra mode once it comes out. I ask you, If you get to a point where theres no more progression for you, will you either quit playing warframe or ask the same thing we did as passionate and WF lover players (A shortcut to a difficulty just to have fun without getting powerful rewards or more ressources that you dont need) ? 

Il y a 3 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

WF is at the root an arpg looter shooter hack and slash, if there is no loot to hunt there really is no point in doing the missions. The combat just isnt engaging or rewarding on its own, pretty much the same as it is in all other arpgs. If there is no loot to hunt it isnt worth doing.

Before being all that, WF is what we call a game and games are to be fun before anything else. There will still be loots but not more and having fun is still a valid point if not the most important one. Until the day no one is having fun, it's still worth it. Time to stop being selfish and show some consideration/empathy to the other people that have another point of view on what means "having fun".

Il y a 3 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Also, there was a reward in all those old arcade games, beating them and ending up on high score lists etc. It isnt so much about "brainwashed" players as it is about gaming having evolved. The games you refer to are stoneage and even at the time there were games around for loot hunting and progression which made them fun. My mother was addicted to hunting health upgrades (hearts) in Legend of Zelda when us kids were in school. The thing is, the need for rewards is different based on the genre, in some it is about beating the game in others it is about the loot or beating the other player. The reward in WF is the loot and the progression.

But what if your parents told to the young you to stop or that it was time to go home before succeeding to do exactly that then ? All the coins would have been lost for nothing and you would cry of frustration ? The kids that didnt expected anything other than having fun would go while being satisfied, so who had the best experience/fun in the end ? The second. And the competitive one would be so frustrated that he will eventually become toxic towards parents or greedy because he was unsatisfied. That's the difference and same thing with the never ending complaining about rewards on warframe, So might as well have a game mode where there is none to prevent complains and that's that IMO. 

Also, you guys still forget but WF is not a competition game but a cooperative one. Most people in game thinks so much about rewards and competition that they dont even interact in game with others or take time to watch others cool frames style but are afraid to because of competition (I still say "hey nice frame Tenno 😉 " and still get a toxic or confused response sometimes. And if you call greediness being the evolution of games and gamers, then it's really sad (sorry to say). When there's enough places to farm everything and there's a end of progression, no need for more rewards. Just because you still have farm to do or mods to get, it dosnt mean you have to prevent other people from having fun in their corner. Just keep farming what you need where you can. 😕 

Il y a 1 heure, SocialFox a dit :

Then I suppose you're one of the very few people who genuinely enjoy the challenge with nothing extra attached to it, you have my respect on that matter.

I really am ! But I'm not here to get respect or anything, just want to open some eyes about the subject if I can since I'm really passionate over WF but it's nice to see open minded players like you that have the courage to go back on their words. You have mine. 😉 💋 

And to be clear even if it dosnt sound like it, I love everyone here ❤️ even the toxic ones. Just want to talk about our lovely game and his, IMO, problems.

Citation

I probably didn't use the right words when I made my post, so let me be clear on one thing:
I honestly don't care what we get, as long as I can't do it on autopilot. Surprize me, make things unpredictable, make things interesting again, heck bring back old enemy armor/hp scaling for ultra hard, I don't care, as long as I can start the mission, and not faceroll everything in sight. Being rewarded for the effort is like an Adrenaline fix. I may be greedy, but I'm not "Nef Anyo" greedy, more like "Maroo" greedy, only I get to do the cool stuff.

That's actually the best suggestion ive seen so far 😄 I think you will get enough adrenaline while trying to survive like I do currently (thats my current thing in HL but sshhh thats a secret between you and me)

Citation

 

and for the record, I have tried Eidolons with off-meta frames (including Grendel) and off-meta weapons (ignis) just because I could, it didn't mean I could successfully capture Hydro, but I did capture Terry in over 20 minutes with that loadout (I did have to use melee at some point cause I realized soon after the ignis just wasn't going to cut it), and to be honest, it didn't feel fun at all.

I was just trying to relay what I feel was the reason why people that I know would want this (while not meaning literally "Everyone"), I spoke out of line, and for that I apologize.

 

I'm an "against meta player myself" and ecourages it (my favorite is Exca most versatile ^^) so i can relate. Capturing Terry off meta is pretty good start ! so GG but yeah.. some things dont cut it out well but at least you tried and now you know one more thing. Most important thing is to try IMO. And maybe you didnt have the good build to go forth too, there's always room/possibility/choices to adapt the current content. 

You dont need to apologize but you have a good attitude (stay that way!) and more people need one like your even if they are not sharing the same opinion as me. Would like to play with you ingame someday 😉 Cheers. 

Edited by Sven_Lazar
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1 hour ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

Stand in a corner, delete all enemies, "Talent". This is the kind of excuses all raiders and such use to explain the "difficult" garbage they do, which is never difficult. You just do the same thing, use every exploit to make it easier, for the sweet rewards. Even if you don't use exploits, you still just do everything that you can to make the "difficulty" either less or dissapear in the confines of what is allowed because it's faster to get the rewards that way. You will (of course) say that you are different but come on, you are not fooling anyone, after all, that's what everyone says.

 

We want to test our dexterity and skill. This is why we play other games like Sekiro, Blood Borne, Dark Souls and Daemon souls. The reward is the fight. the reward is the ability to stay and quick react curbing the fight in our favor. Winning by a slight difference is tastier than an easy win where the opponent is easier to defeat. Raids? That is an algorithm of a build, a routine and pattern recognition. Once you discover the optimization the rest becomes muscle memory. The games that compromises the player in a fight tend to be harder because the game demands a minimum skill set other than just gear check and XP. 

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