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Why does everyone want better rewards for hard mode?


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2 hours ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

Stand in a corner, delete all enemies, "Talent". This is the kind of excuses all raiders and such use to explain the "difficult" garbage they do, which is never difficult. You just do the same thing, use every exploit to make it easier, for the sweet rewards. Even if you don't use exploits, you still just do everything that you can to make the "difficulty" either less or dissapear in the confines of what is allowed because it's faster to get the rewards that way. You will (of course) say that you are different but come on, you are not fooling anyone, after all, that's what everyone says.


Why are you using the word "raiders" in this context?

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1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

 

In a game where progression is at a stop, there's no need for more rewards that helps progression so it's time to learn to find reward in fun 🙂

This is a matter of preferences. You have two types of thought schools. There are players that rewards themselves with the challenge and there are players that find ways to challenge themselves using the game in a non intended way. One of those challenges is for example, not killing a single enemy for the longest time period. This stresses the game in other directions taking the developer off guard. 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

As I said we already have enough rewards as it is and concerning upcoming Hard modes, the reward should be just fun as it should be for once. Running after more rewards than necessary is called greediness and it's never a good thing 🙂 

Hard more is more of a test on well established players with experience. This goes beyond gear checking. Experimenting hardened enemies that starts on level 200 is a way to test the theory of any build. Meta will shift and the market will be aimed at endurance items. Good items should scale up or at least help synergize with the frame. 

 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Medals and rewards are actually an excuse and a proof of existence for people that are interested in competition and showing off to the world, a lot of people actually deserve a medal but they wont accept it because they have satisfaction and having fun in what they do, and are proud of themselves for what only themselves know they do or can do. They dont need to prove anything to anyone else because satisfaction and having fun is an enough reward and thats a most beautiful thing as a human being. Where greediness is the opposite.

Competition is a human endeavor. Despite if we like it or not, such behavior is in our genes. The sense of the superlative always spout out in games, social classes, education and any other human endeavor. However how we deal with competition is another conversation related to methods and means. Reward is tied directly with effort. Our society is build on those pillars. Changing that logical way of thinking defeats the purposes of games, professions, practices, mechanics, transactions or any other activity where performance is required. 

People is not forced to prove anything to anyone. Of course, there are games for everybody and there are preferences for everybody, however a set of individuals should not dictate the policies of the population. We deal with the phenomenon of inclusion and exclusion every single day. Game design is not the exception. There are cooperative team based games, there are single player campaigns and there are competitive gaming. You select the field where you feel comfortable. 

But there is something to be said about the aforementioned. A set of people should not dictate how a game should be played. A set of people should not impose how a game should be experienced either. The only contribution we are allowed to do is on the lines of 'QoL' quality of life in the game and the performance of the game. Contributions that helps talented players are welcome. Options that provides a wider majority of players are welcome. But those who seek challenge, skill and performance SHOULD NOT be thrown away because other players wants an easy ride. 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Ever heard of "the most important thing is not to win but participate and having fun" ? That's an exemple.

Ever heard the sentence of "no pain, no gain" ?. 

There are people who enjoy only participation, there are other individuals who enjoys stress testing and skill challenge. 

See? 

 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Well... coming from someone getting infuriated and threathening someone over a calm and chill discussion on a forum, I'm pretty sure the one that knows what fun is, is not you ^^ (no offense) 

The hobbit reference is a giveaway. You missed it. 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Sharing our opinions, thoughts and knowledge should be fun too, sadly, for some people, it's just a matter of competition and that is all you are talking about in your posts: "competition", "medal", "efforts". Can't you just enjoy life without running after something ? Is is that hard ? 😕  I can't imagine you actually having fun in the game with this attitude, and I mean real fun ^^' Do you get toxic over a guy that had something you didnt get or getting upset because someone dared to have an opposite but right argument with you ?

Board posting can be anything under certain rules and institutional parameters. 

When we deal with a conversation our tendency is to use the scientific method. We provide evidence on certain claims when we talk about the operability of the game. Substantiation is an endeavor that pertains to the academies. If you come up with certain details, I'll go on full evaluation and exhaustion. Why? Because that is how we do science. There is no other way. Games is strict science of computer science, mathematics, physics, programming, design among many other fields of psychology and sociology. We can't escape knowledge because such endeavor is portrayed in the game itself. 

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. If I want that, then I'll visit a chess club and do my daily fights there. If you come in doing exhaustive quotations then you are asking for a detailed discussion. There is an old saying that says "if you ask, you buy". In my clan I usually play with lower ranks, help the nubs get their hardware and if they have questions I answer them in detail. I don't impose how I do my game. However I don't let other people tell me how I should do my 'woodwork'. 

 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Just using nice elaborated words dosnt make you right or intelligent, but our behaviour as humans does. 

True, flamboyant words makes flamboyant colors. However there is a difference between intellectual coefficient and emotional coefficient. There are about seven cognitive parameters that measures intelligence. Academy doesn't make people smart. That is correct. 

Behaviorism is another topic that goes way off this subject. Id, ego and super ego, Maslow's pyramid and threshold potential. I don't come here to discuss human development and psychology. 

 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

You dont need rewards to learn or to do something. We are not dogs that needs treats to do something right, we are supposed to be more intelligent and more advanced species. We shouldnt learn to be polite or act like good humans to be rewarded and go to heavens for it, but just do it cause it's the right thing to do. That's why most of the new generations are not, they just think "why should I be polite if I dont get any rewards for it, let's just have fun being toxic to everyone.  

Hold my beer: Year 2020. 

The basics structure of any GAAS F2P game is based on the premises of pride, accomplishment applied to aspiration game play

Source: Aspirational Play - Adding a Sense of Wonder to Game Design - Extra Credits

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Everyone can. Proof is that I own a clan that helps new players to learn the game and my goal is that they get at my level and the ones that stayed till the end of the teaching managed to get what you mentionned. The reason ? Because they were patient enough while I gave them the necessary knowledge and tips as a shortcut to get the caracteristics you mentioned. If its learned it's not innate natural talent but experience and learning. When it's innate natural talent, you dont need teachings, your talent figures it out by itself. Like Einstein who was bad at math or Beethoven who pretty much refused to get teaching. You use a lot of pretty and elaborate words but you still didnt show any existing exemple of what you say as proof like I did and still do now and you didnt even answered or mentioned them.

I don't need to do your homework. Your interest must be fueled by your curiosity. If you want a teacher or lecturer then you visit the University. If you want information then you download a digital book or buy a physical one. Not everyone can be proficient at everything. That is the reality of our brain development. We can't escape our genes. Data transfer of adaptability happens throughout nature and nurture. 

The concept that you are talking about is UBUNTU. Cooperation, contribution and help are another type of social philosophy. The discussion of art savant is not the subject here. I don't go speaking about Bethe, Julian Schwinger, Antoon Lorentz, Hilbert, Bjørn Felsager or even Anatoly Karpov or Magnus Carlsen. Their talent are worldwide known because they had the teachers, the talent and the commitment. 

Talent is a social realization where the contribution is localized on many. These minds are our product of a social structure where knowledge and academy are the norm. If you want a teacher, I can't be one. I'm simply a game player. Nothing else, nothing more. A professor gave me about five thousand books in many areas of architecture, science, mathematics, physics and engineering. 

Intelligence is something that I don't have. That's why I read the books. 😛

 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Um.. I dont mind the previous passive toxicity but now you are starting to arrogantly stating facts that you dont know by claiming to know how much I played others games or what I do in real life just to feel like being in the right, proof that you are taking the subject of this topic to get personal over me, see the issue yet ? I think you need to clear your mind, drink a cup of tea ^^ You can't always be right man or always be the best. Just forget the whole competition thing, it's ruining lives as well as yours someday. Just be happy 🙂   

Let us analyze this portion of a post right here in exhaustive detail, sentence by sentence. 

First, I never intended to be toxic. The use of that word is dismissive to say the least. The one who quoted me was you. You came in asking for the movie tickets. I gave them to you and now you whine about it. 

Second, arrogance? Seriously? Who came here with the exhaustive attitude of quoting everybody when I was simply putting light weighted posts? you. Your attitude resembled a judge. Don't blame me for it when you invite people with a judgmental attitude. Read my posts again. I simply subscribe myself to speak only about a game. You came in dissecting my analysis. I simply gave you a taste of your own medicine. 

Third, don't project yourself on other users. You came asking for a beer, I gave you root German beer, one of the best in the market. 

Fourth, I don't claim that my premises are the truth. However if you question them I'll answer your queries properly. You are the guy asking the question. I'm simply providing the answers. If you don't agree with the answers, fine, carry on. I'm not placing any certainty on what I write. But my scientist part kicks in with quotes, precision, exactness and accuracy. This is my education and training. I can't help it. 

Fifth, let people compete their own way. If you come in challenging everybody in the board, then don't shy away when someone put you in your place. You triggered the chemical reaction. I never asked you to do it. 

Your first post was a wall post quoting more than five individuals where you tried to be extremely exhaustive. Your actions brought you here. If you make the cross with heavy wood then you need the body to carry the weight of your actions. This principle applies to everything. "Don't bite off more than you can chew", sir. 

 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

If you did youd beat him 😉 dont lose hope, I'm sure you can do it someday. People before you actually managed to beat their idol by giving time to themselves. You just need to practice. 👍 

I know my limitations and skills. 

The wise man understands the mountain that he climbs. I have to live with my limitations. His quick reactions are fractions of a second. He reacts up to a 1/30 of an image frame. He is a paid competitive player. We are speaking about the best Chun Li of the game. 

https://www.destructoid.com/meet-brolylegs-the-competitive-street-fighter-player-who-fights-with-his-mouth-341060.phtml

Brolylegs is no joke. 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

But please, next time dont be toxic and clear your mind before coming back 🙂 I'm still open to discussion but about the game not my private life. 

I don't discuss private life in here. That is not my business. My business is the game. You came in questioning my game knowledge. I simply delivered the answer. 

1 hour ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Claim in question: You can't even get the reference. 

Answers are in bold letters. 

First: the way you say it is clearly toxic and meant to lower me, wich is not nice and not mature wich says a lot about you. 😕  

The reference is well known by LOTR readers and the community. The 'meme' exist for a reason. 

Second: I was not sure thats why it was a question.

Then do a search in the net about the phrase. 

And third: I already said I was not an english speaker so... proof that you dont read or try to understand anything but only tries to prove how better you are, where all you did is proving the opposite by yourself alone. 

I'm not judging your orthography, sentence structure, grammar or any other aspect of the language. I'm not an English teacher. That is not my job. I don't get paid for it.

Fourth: So you just polluted the topic posting a single post with just one single sentence just to make fun of me as a personnal attack a bit later ? Sad 😕  

I don't come here to poke fun on other individuals. But if you invite for a test. I'll provide plenty. Who was the person who dissected every post in the thread? You.

What is next ? Racism over me not being an english speaker ? C'mon guys.. 😞 You will just get judged as toxic and being ignored if you keep spamming this topic just targeting me 😕 We are here to talk about warframe as a reminder.

The rules are incredibly strict on these forums. Again I don't make fun of people for their origins, their language proficiency or level of education. Don't play the game of the victim. You don't have to. 

You jumped over the gun with an accusatory note. This happens when you react instead of reading carefully. 

 

As I said. I take my time and answer in exhaustive detail.

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27 minutes ago, hippokrene said:

I would be fine with getting better rewards for easier content. I am easy to please that way.

That's perfectly fine. 

 

DE provides plenty of those rewards in sorties, alerts and public events. 

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1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

That's perfectly fine. 

 

DE provides plenty of those rewards in sorties, alerts and public events. 

None of those are easy. What are you even talking about?

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Before going on with this debate, I think we should make a distinction between having challenging content with better rewards, and having better rewards in the upcoming hardmode; and I want to make this distinction because calling this new Hardmode challenging is, IMO, debatable. We are going to get two new gamemodes, which will increase the base level of enemies by 50 and 100, respectively. The thing is, we already have people making runs agains level 5000 mobs like they are nothing. So, can we really consider this "hardmode" to be actually hard? Even with higher level enemies, most mission types won't be much different: sabotages, captures, rescues, spy missions will still be able to be cheesed with the same methods we already have at our disposal; only endless missions will be slightly different, and again, we already have people easily playing those missions with way higher levels. To me, this Hardmode thing looks like a step in the right direction, but I certainly hope this is not the final solution from DE to deal with the demand of challenge by the players.


Back to the point: I won't get into the 'better rewards' discussion because there is no correct answer to it; there are lots of reasons for why intrinsic and extrinsic motivations can be positive and negative in gaming, depending on the context (google that a little bit and you'll find several interesting articles on the subject). My biggest issue with this debate is that some people here argue against having better rewards in the upcoming Hardmode, since it should be played just for the fun of engaging with challenging content; but, as I mentioned early, this new gamemode can hardly can be considered challening. So, if there is no challenge, and there are no rewards... then what's the point?

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5 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:


Why are you using the word "raiders" in this context?

Because it's the exact same thing, in every game. Some "difficulty" and "challenge" obsession has gripped players and (unfortunately) game developers so it needs to be shoved by force into everything. Let's hope DE won't go any further than this.

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6 hours ago, Felsagger said:

 

We want to test our dexterity and skill. This is why we play other games like Sekiro, Blood Borne, Dark Souls and Daemon souls. The reward is the fight. the reward is the ability to stay and quick react curbing the fight in our favor. Winning by a slight difference is tastier than an easy win where the opponent is easier to defeat. Raids? That is an algorithm of a build, a routine and pattern recognition. Once you discover the optimization the rest becomes muscle memory. The games that compromises the player in a fight tend to be harder because the game demands a minimum skill set other than just gear check and XP. 

I have played those games too, still there is no need to infect other games with it just because they got popular. We get it, you are a real pro but there is no need to prove it at every turn.

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I see players that want a challenge without the waste of time it takes to progress through an endless mission to the point it takes to be presented with one.

^They were not asking for better rewards only a better challenge. (Easily provided through the use of a difficulty slider for each mission and no change to current loot tables.)

 

Then I see players requesting that better rewards be attached to those tougher challenges.

^The problem with that is that those better rewards only serve to trivialize the difficulty of the tougher challenge putting the first set of players  right back in the position they were originally (with no challenges left).

DE can't produce challenging content at a rate that players can chew through it if they continue to grant better rewards for tougher challenges.

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9 hours ago, 844448 said:

And games I played always use enemies with thick health and big damage, and any kind of this in warframe is a big sin while it's praised in other games so what to say?

It depends extremely on the overall game design. For example, how many enemies you encounter at the same time and in total over the course of a mission, and whether all enemies are bullet sponges or only special elite ones, and in the latter case how often you encounter them.

But if every cheap mook can eat a full magazine of assault rifle to the face, people do rightfully complain about bullet sponges in pretty much any game.

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Players want both . You want a challenge and something to acknowledge that you did it.Even in packman there were tournaments and the high score was the acknowledgment.
In warframe could be a very vera rare item or cosmetic.
It's high risk, high reward situation.

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1 hour ago, Mephane said:

It depends extremely on the overall game design. For example, how many enemies you encounter at the same time and in total over the course of a mission, and whether all enemies are bullet sponges or only special elite ones, and in the latter case how often you encounter them.

But if every cheap mook can eat a full magazine of assault rifle to the face, people do rightfully complain about bullet sponges in pretty much any game.

Look at what level the enemies are compared to our level 30 gears or level 40 kuva weapons and people are wiping level 9999 cheap mooks with those level 30 gears before kuva weapons and OP mods so where's the bullet sponge part then?

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9 hours ago, Sven_Lazar said:

Some players will. If youre not part of the ones that originally asked for it, logic would be to please players that asked for it since we cant please everyone anyway and everyone else already has enough content to farm. But one thing im sure is that you will decide to farm in hard or ultra when you get to a certain progression point even if theres no more reward, you just have to try it or just ignore it until it interest you. 🙂 

Then just keep farm kuva wherever you want while letting other players go in Ultra even if they will be a minority, I just dont see the problem or the reason to ask to advance to the point that will make you stop playing faster with asking more rewards. Just because they are a minority they dont have the right to do something else than the other people ? No one forces anyone to play the upcoming Hard or Ultra mode once it comes out. I ask you, If you get to a point where theres no more progression for you, will you either quit playing warframe or ask the same thing we did as passionate and WF lover players (A shortcut to a difficulty just to have fun without getting powerful rewards or more ressources that you dont need) ? 

Before being all that, WF is what we call a game and games are to be fun before anything else. There will still be loots but not more and having fun is still a valid point if not the most important one. Until the day no one is having fun, it's still worth it. Time to stop being selfish and show some consideration/empathy to the other people that have another point of view on what means "having fun".

But what if your parents told to the young you to stop or that it was time to go home before succeeding to do exactly that then ? All the coins would have been lost for nothing and you would cry of frustration ? The kids that didnt expected anything other than having fun would go while being satisfied, so who had the best experience/fun in the end ? The second. And the competitive one would be so frustrated that he will eventually become toxic towards parents or greedy because he was unsatisfied. That's the difference and same thing with the never ending complaining about rewards on warframe, So might as well have a game mode where there is none to prevent complains and that's that IMO. 

Also, you guys still forget but WF is not a competition game but a cooperative one. Most people in game thinks so much about rewards and competition that they dont even interact in game with others or take time to watch others cool frames style but are afraid to because of competition (I still say "hey nice frame Tenno 😉 " and still get a toxic or confused response sometimes. And if you call greediness being the evolution of games and gamers, then it's really sad (sorry to say). When there's enough places to farm everything and there's a end of progression, no need for more rewards. Just because you still have farm to do or mods to get, it dosnt mean you have to prevent other people from having fun in their corner. Just keep farming what you need where you can. 😕 

"Some players will" wont be a thing, not when you look at the actual scenario. Yes some will play it and get kuva doing so, but if the focus s on efficiency as I mentioned then people wont run it. You also miss the part with "the ones that originally asked for it" that the players who did have also been asking for scaling endless rewards to make pushing worthwhile. Slapping on hard/ultra without increased rewards will just make the thing end up being used as much as conclave or long endless currently are, which isnt alot. This itself kinda kills the point of spending dev time on it. And with the changes to melee, statuses and enemy scaling there is even less reason to push just for the sake of testing yourself.

The thing is that your thinking is backwards. Obviously no one is forcing anyone to do HM and UHM, that isnt why we are discussing here. Those that dont want increased reward yields are the ones that look at it as if it forced since they'll "miss out" if they dont wanna or can do it. And looking at the time it took for them to add HM I'd say I'd probably quit instead of asking when I run out of things to do.

You call others "mindless" yet you somehow actually find "fun" in murdering hordes with no effort and rewards? Isnt that the very meaning of mindless, doing something without an actual endgoal? WF will never sustain itself on the combat and gameplay it has because it isnt engaging, just as D3 and PoE cant sustain themselves without loot, hence why people play them for 2-3 weeks at a time each few months when new seasons/leagues gets added. I used to be able to sit down and play old games without pixel rewards because the gameplay itself was rewarding, that isnt the case for most arpgs (or MMORPGS), where the loot grind instead is the selling point backed up by mass slaughter of mobs.

If my parents told me to stop then so be it, the coin wasnt a mechanic of the game, the coin was just the method of the time regarding how you payed for access to the game. You cant live in a mindset where 40+ year old tech was approached a different way, alot has happened since then. Since the mid 80's we buy the games we want, games that come with artificial pixel loot as a carrot to keep up playing, or endless levels to climb as we pick holes in the ceiling as we watch out for icetaps falling on our head or fluffy little creatures trying to chew us up.

What the hell does competition have to do with wanting loot? Also, nothing about wanting extra loot prevents anyone from anything. Stop making up phantom reasons regarding why loot shouldnt be increased. More loot will have no negative impact at all, it will however have positive impact since it will increase the use of a HM or UHM implementation. No one will complain about a mode getting extra loot, it will not make them avoid it. The opposite will happen though if there isnt loot, several people wont bother with it because there is no reason if loot is what they are after. Personally there isnt a single mission I play if there isnt a reward to it that I seek, adding +50/100 levels wont change that for me. Add increased loot yield to those +50/100 levels and I'll play it always over low level missions. We can already mimic hardmode through arbitrations, a mode that even has special mechanics to make it "harder" than what HM will be. I havent been running it in ages since I got all the rewards I need from there.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

I have played those games too, still there is no need to infect other games with it just because they got popular. We get it, you are a real pro but there is no need to prove it at every turn.

He doesnt understand the concept of different genres. It wouldnt surprise me if he'd pop in and want "souls like" combat in WoW or turning D3 into a tactical shooter at this point.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

I have played those games too, still there is no need to infect other games with it just because they got popular. We get it, you are a real pro but there is no need to prove it at every turn.

This is the part so many gamers don't seem to be able to grasp.

Tedius, mind-numbing, muscle repeating dexterity-based gameplay is not, in fact, considered challenging to many players, it's not some kind of perfect thing to add to every game just because a couple popular games have it, nor does being good at it make anyone any sort of pro, it just means you happen to have those reflexes and you like those games.

Many act as if gaming did not exist until these kinds of games were made.

There are so very many other aspects to gaming, yet they mean very little if if there are no flashy graphics and don't rely on reaction time to these players, because 'shiny' and following the herd is all they care about, from my POV.

Popular games to them are more important than good ones.

Popular != Good.

Edited by Zimzala
speeling
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Il y a 5 heures, Felsagger a dit :

This is a matter of preferences.

No, it's a matter of pure greediness that ignores good reasoning in this case. Where good reasoning would be: "being too greedy will make me stop playing this nice game faster so lets calm down, be reasonnable and try to make fun a reward". We are still talking about Warframe and like I said, asking more and more rewards when progression is at a stop, will just make players quit the game faster like the greedy players before them that rushed the content too fast and quit the game putting the fault on the game where they were supposed to clam their greedy side and manage the content. 

Citation

You have two types of thought schools. There are players that rewards themselves with the challenge and there are players that find ways to challenge themselves using the game in a non intended way. One of those challenges is for example, not killing a single enemy for the longest time period. This stresses the game in other directions taking the developer off guard.

Any challenge is challenge, either you make two different exemples or you make over 50 of the same one. Your two exemples are part of the same category. 

The two real "thought schools" here would be: Players that just need challenge with no rewards to just have fun and the ones that needs rewards to have fun. 

And even if you dont want to admit it, one of them is in the wrong. If a "thought school" makes you rush something fun to then ruin it and make you stop playing it, like players that rushed the content to then quit soon after, then it is certainly a wrong one.

Citation

Competition is a human endeavor. Despite if we like it or not, such behavior is in our genes.

You can live your life while ignoring competiton because competition is a choice and it grows ego too. Plus competition is not a good thing IMO, there are multiples cases where competition caused harms, jealousy and even murder because it grew ego into madness and made people insane, doing stupid things or change character. Life is way more pleasant without competition, I recommend doing without it.

Citation

Reward is tied directly with effort. Our society is build on those pillars. Changing that logical way of thinking defeats the purposes of games, professions, practices, mechanics, transactions or any other activity where performance is required.

If reward would be actually tied to effort, people that works harder than others should be paid more but it's not the case but some people dont care about that because they have something that goes over this, and it's what a few people have, passion. Society's logic is a really bad exemple to refer to.

The purpose of games is to have fun, not to follow what society expects or forces you to do. If you choose to play by the "logical way of thinking" of others it's your choice but dont tell others how they are supposed to have fun. The "play meta or leave the group" is an exemple of that "logical way" of yours, society wants you to play meta just because it's how they play and they dont want something different that could make them feel less "special", and that's another problem that competition is causing. 

An exemple: I used to hunt eidolons with my excalibur and when joining a game, I would many times encounter "optimal meta" players saying "LOL Exca ? Lol that's stupid/ it's useless or "leave the group plz" on my arrival, then they would all die, one after the other, where I had to finish Hydro alone because time was limited and couldnt revive them anymore. Then there was a silence at the end and they left without saying "thank you for revives" or finishing the quest... Not like I did it for it but it's only good manners when I wasnt even being toxic back on them and just ignored the insults.

It's not the gear that's important guys, it's your build, open mind and capacity to adapt, so dont lose that capacity with being narrow-minded or follow what society tells you how to have fun folks.    

Citation

Of course, there are games for everybody and there are preferences for everybody, however a set of individuals should not dictate the policies of the population. We deal with the phenomenon of inclusion and exclusion every single day. Game design is not the exception. There are cooperative team based games, there are single player campaigns and there are competitive gaming. You select the field where you feel comfortable. But there is something to be said about the aforementioned. A set of people should not dictate how a game should be played. A set of people should not impose how a game should be experienced either. The only contribution we are allowed to do is on the lines of 'QoL' quality of life in the game and the performance of the game. Contributions that helps talented players are welcome. Options that provides a wider majority of players are welcome. But those who seek challenge, skill and performance SHOULD NOT be thrown away because other players wants an easy ride.

You contradict yourself from what you say above and here talking about pillars of society and their "logical way of thinking" that has to be followed and then saying that individuals are not supposed to dictate others when you tries to convince me that people have to make efforts and competition to have fun.

For the rest, that was my point from start. if people that just wants rewards farm where there already have enough, people that just want challenge without more rewards play Hard and Ultra and people who seek competition farm conclave, then there shouldnt be any complaints, anyone has their place to be and if they want to change places they are welcome but without complains. It's not a matter of dictating, but opening eyes and reasoning on what they really want.

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There are people who enjoy only participation, there are other individuals who enjoys stress testing and skill challenge. 

See? 

 

Did you even understand in wich side I am ? Did you understand my posts ? 😕 

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The hobbit reference is a giveaway. You missed it. 

Reference that you actually didnt put right away like I did with my "not on my watch" reference (that's how you make funny references), you didn't even quoted the sentence to make it clear it was one and you actually said "I will destroy you so hard" when the hobbit reference says "I will destroy you" without the "so hard" wich you added it out of madness and then searched a "I will destroy you so hard" video on google to try to make it like you actually kept your calm and were trying to be funny while you only looked to attack me. Nice try tho ^^ 

Time to stop acting all calm and innocent when you clearly lost your calm and are in the wrong friend, that was clearly personnal attack and toxicity 😕

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When we deal with a conversation our tendency is to use the scientific method. We provide evidence on certain claims when we talk about the operability of the game. Substantiation is an endeavor that pertains to the academies. If you come up with certain details, I'll go on full evaluation and exhaustion. Why? Because that is how we do science. There is no other way. Games is strict science of computer science, mathematics, physics, programming, design among many other fields of psychology and sociology. We can't escape knowledge because such endeavor is portrayed in the game itself. 

Friend, we are talking about having fun and warframe, not science. I understand that your competition side wants to prove you are smarter than everyone else or whatever but avoid going off the road that much or changing subject please. 

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If I want that, then I'll visit a chess club and do my daily fights there. If you come in doing exhaustive quotations then you are asking for a detailed discussion. There is an old saying that says "if you ask, you buy".

Well if you want to talk about science, that would be a good place to do it. And I would buy the marchandise if it wasnt defective but I'm not forced to buy it if you cant sell it well. Whoever made that saying didnt think much thought it.  Plus, I got no money 😄 

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In my clan I usually play with lower ranks, help the nubs get their hardware and if they have questions I answer them in detail. I don't impose how I do my game. However I don't let other people tell me how I should do my 'woodwork'. 

The fact that you start by calling them "nubs" or "noobs" says a lot about you and what you really think about them. Making them feel like noobs by calling them like that is very bad and lower them the same way you tried to lower me before.

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True, flamboyant words makes flamboyant colors.

Glad we found something we agree on 😉 Let's keep that way then ! That's a good start.

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I don't need to do your homework.

So... you claim that I'm a kid now ? I guess that was the next thing on the list to lower me again I guess 😞 

The rest below is off topic so you will have to excuse me for ignoring it. It's not really interesting for the subject and I'm not here to prove that I read books or that I'm intelligent, since I have no interest in competition, unlike most people. Just want to talk and debate about Warframe and his problems.

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That's why I read the books. 😛

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First, I never intended to be toxic. The use of that word is dismissive to say the least. The one who quoted me was you. You came in asking for the movie tickets. I gave them to you and now you whine about it. 

But you did even if you had the choice to be mature, if you didnt, that means you cant. Plus, you keep being passively toxic towards me every time when I just find something we can agree on but I guess being toxic is the way your respond to a question that you dont like or feel inapt to answer. Ok 😕 I will stop putting question marks then if it makes you uncomfortable and toxic. At least you admit that you were, wich is a good start. Thank you for that (no to provoke, just encouraging you to keep that way).

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Second, arrogance? Seriously? Who came here with the exhaustive attitude of quoting everybody when I was simply putting light weighted posts? you. Your attitude resembled a judge. Don't blame me for it when you invite people with a judgmental attitude. Read my posts again. I simply subscribe myself to speak only about a game. You came in dissecting my analysis. I simply gave you a taste of your own medicine. 

So... quoting is offensive now ? Quoting post we find interesting because we come late after a break or other obligations makes it more clear to who we are talking with and for other people to understand our arguments. Just stop being offended by everything everytime... That's not mature at all. And of course we blame you for for being toxic, no one forces you to be. 😞  

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Third, don't project yourself on other users. You came asking for a beer, I gave you root German beer, one of the best in the market. 

I dont drink alcool, it's really bad for the body and mind so avoid claiming that I want it, thank you. 🙂

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Fourth, I don't claim that my premises are the truth. However if you question them I'll answer your queries properly. You are the guy asking the question. I'm simply providing the answers. If you don't agree with the answers, fine, carry on. I'm not placing any certainty on what I write. But my scientist part kicks in with quotes, precision, exactness and accuracy. This is my education and training. I can't help it. 

Well... again, That's what a forum is for... If you can't help being offended and toxic, I would recommend seeking for people specialised in giving advices on how to live a more peaceful life. Yoga is nice, I recommend it.  

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Fifth, let people compete their own way. If you come in challenging everybody in the board, then don't shy away when someone put you in your place. You triggered the chemical reaction. I never asked you to do it. 

"put me in my place" ? Wow, that's toxic 😕 Where is my place ? The thrash ? I'm asking knowing you wont be honest on that. 

And I never asked you to be toxic either. Just drink a cup of tea friend. 

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Your first post was a wall post quoting more than five individuals where you tried to be extremely exhaustive. Your actions brought you here. If you make the cross with heavy wood then you need the body to carry the weight of your actions. This principle applies to everything. "Don't bite off more than you can chew", sir. 

I certainly writes a lot (because I like writing) but nothing wrong with that, nothing prohibit me from quoting multiple post and I'm dont mind being here 🙂 and never complained about it, you do and no one forces you to stay 😕  I saw courageous people, open minded people and people trying to find answers. That's what I like about forum depsite trolls or toxicity. 

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I know my limitations and skills.

Your lack of self-confidence is. What about all the effort talk you had previously ? It's just a street fighter game I'm sure you can do it. go for it !

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The wise man understands the mountain that he climbs. I have to live with my limitations. His quick reactions are fractions of a second. He reacts up to a 1/30 of an image frame. He is a paid competitive player. We are speaking about the best Chun Li of the game.

Yeah.. but when someone claim to be a "wise man", it's not being wise but it's being arrogant. (no offense) You dont just decide that by yourself one day, others do while you prove it and in this case, get mad or toxic over a forum dosnt help.

Plus mountains rocks are not statics, sometimes they fall letting you climb it. You can see these falling rocks as opportunities and maybe one day you will have one to succeed.

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I don't discuss private life in here. That is not my business. My business is the game. You came in questioning my game knowledge. I simply delivered the answer.

 Then dont claim knowing how much time i pass on games or if I didnt dedicated enough time on something ^^

Il y a 9 heures, General-Pacman a dit :

We are going to get two new gamemodes, which will increase the base level of enemies by 50 and 100, respectively. The thing is, we already have people making runs agains level 5000 mobs like they are nothing.

Not "new game mods" but shortcut. The main reason for the upcoming Hard modes coming out is mainly for people that dont have enough time anymore because of real life duties to one shot low level ennemies for hours just to get to high level ennemies to have fun.

Il y a 9 heures, General-Pacman a dit :

calling this new Hardmode challenging is, IMO, debatable.

As for, "will it still be challenging?" I personnally feel adrenaline while playing it right now so normally it should be yes, unless they nerf something just before realeasing it, like when Arbitration were supposed to be lvl 100 but people said it was too hard and they made it a lvl 60 game mode..  

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sabotages, captures, rescues, spy missions will still be able to be cheesed

The players that cheese content are not playing the game as intended and are playing it the wrong way, no excuses. So they have no right to complain about difficulty. The ones that look everyday for exploits and way to rush content are ruining their own experience just to be "popular" and they also ruin the game. Obstacle course general list is an exemple, Everytime I look into it I feel disgust towars that community. They dont even let normal and new players have a chance to hope to prove themselves making it into the list using their own capacities. Players who did this, ruining a fun part of the game for new players should have been banned even if it was a majority..

Some players dont cheese content.  

Il y a 9 heures, General-Pacman a dit :

Back to the point: I won't get into the 'better rewards' discussion because there is no correct answer to it

My biggest issue with this debate is that some people here argue against having better rewards in the upcoming Hardmode, since it should be played just for the fun of engaging with challenging content; but, as I mentioned early, this new gamemode can hardly can be considered challening. So, if there is no challenge, and there are no rewards... then what's the point?

Like I said above, and I will repeat as many times as needed because people dont get that part or ignore it (not meaning you ^^ ) we already have Hard and Ultra modes in the game, it already exist and so some challenge right now but no more time to waste with low level ennemies before accessing it, upcoming Hard Modes are just supposed to be shortcut. And if you dont find it challenging enough, there's always ways of making it more like people mentioned in this topic (dragon keys, less or no mods, etc) .

But like SocialFox suggested, we could have more ennemies or more stress situation too. As long they dont nerf it or make it another run for unecessary rewards to show off or  something else.

Il y a 4 heures, vegetosayajin a dit :

Players want both . You want a challenge and something to acknowledge that you did it.Even in packman there were tournaments and the high score was the acknowledgment.
In warframe could be a very vera rare item or cosmetic.
It's high risk, high reward situation.

Not all players, you didnt read previous messages. 😕  Stop stating arrogant facts making everyone in the same bag gentlemen please. There are people that just wants having challenge without more rewards, not even a ship decoration to exactly prevent people feeling bad about others getting something they cant at their actual progression and prevent arrogant players to show off and be toxic by lowering others.

Tournaments are for competition games wich Warframe is NOT, it's a cooperative one. Tournament is a choice not something that makes you feel forced to do. Upcoming Hard Modes prupose is to have fun not having competitions.

FUN IS a reward. Time to realise it. You already have enough of these rewards in sorties and Nightwaves. Let others players have their fun in their corner, they wont bother you or make you feel jealous so dont bother them.

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On 2020-06-11 at 4:12 PM, Lutesque said:

Difficulty can improve the player's experience, absolutely. I've seen enough people ask for "hard mode" to know as much. It depends on the person, however, and I can tell you from experience that difficulty can drastically degrade a player's experience, as well. Over-rewarding Hard Mode shifts status quo and teaches players that they're "supposed" to play Hard Mode whether they enjoy it or not. A lot of people will, as a result burning themselves on it. I personally prefer to make that a choice. If you want high difficulty, run high difficulty. If you don't want high difficulty, you can still run standard content without feeling like you're missing out. Again, everybody wins.

And if a player finds themselves wanting rewards quickly but not wanting to go through the slower pace of difficult content - I'd argue that player doesn't actually enjoy difficult content. That player has, in all likelihood, been conditioned to expect higher rewards from difficult content because "that's how loot-based games work" and isn't making decisions from the perspective of entertainment value at all. Maybe I'm jaded from playing MMOs for too long, but the rat race isn't worth it. In any of 'em.

@Steel_Rook

I think the key to the entire discussion is the roots of progression in games and I think there may be multiple differing points being conflicted here. DmC for example provides harder difficulty for variety in its challenge. Even if it's the same game, you have to play each difficulty differently.

Doesn't mean that a player who played through the harder difficulty...doesn't enjoy it, but it could mean that they felt going back again was less worth than another option. It's not as black and white as purely enjoying difficult content or not. It's the unfortunate reality of such subjective experiences. Take artists for example who have varied levels of talent and time, some artists may have minimum talent, demand, and time and be thrilled to draw anything for free, others will have anywhere in between up to the other extreme where you could pay hundreds for the same commission someone would do for free, but at a higher quality. Just because an artist doesn't draw for a client for free doesn't mean they don't "truly enjoy" art, it just means in particular instances they don't want to draw art that doesn't feel rewarding for them. In the same instance they can choose to draw non commissioned art either apart of a passion project or fan art for the sake of exposure or comfort/admiration (which to them is rewarding even if not financially). 

Content in general is optional, but to say experiences are/always should be equal without engaging is a bit misleading. Players who engaged to acquire arcanes from Eidolons have a decent advantage and flexibility in builds over those who absolve themselves from arcanes completely. Even more so, it's optional to rank up mods and use better weapons, so why doesn't everyone just stick to their MK-1 weapons and remove all of their mods?  Why do weapons have MR restriction at all (some of them may not be appropriate but they serve a purpose)? Again, it messes up the core driving factor of progression not to mention entertainment value is not a mutually exclusive factor. Take peculiar mods for example, there are people who use them, but they are so few and between that many forget they even exist. Even more so, why are you playing Warframe and MMOs and not Tetris or minesweeper? These are rhetorical questions; people gravitate to what they enjoy and even in warframe there are sections of enjoyment that people have made from professional Eidolons, fashion frame, index life, kuva rerolling, dojo decorating etc.  NOTE: progression isn't always better gear, in the case of competitive games and bullet hells, progression can be improving in skill or literally in making progress in the game.

 

 

The problem is Warframe has a scatterplot instead of a map. It will take fixing up the new player route and what they actually anticipate from players before the end of the map (raids, challenge, etc.) can ever be properly designed. You cannot properly challenge your players if you don't lead them and prepare them for the next position from the node you're on.

It's why many people had an issue with the Grendel missions and simply equipping all the dragon keys to "emulate hardmode." They are difficult, but not challenging as it just removes a significant portion of the progression players have made. It's an important distinction. 

Borderlands gives you a map with choices, they know what level you should be for each quest and present that information to you. The player can then decide: I'll take the challenge -or- pursuit optional quests for more experience.

It's the same with Destiny: new players don't enter a Raid day one, they have to go through the campaign, which the developers estimate will put them at a certain level to be eligible. It gives new players something to look forward to and chase.

As a developer you're designing an experience, and in trying to give players an equal option to go to hard mode or not, you incidentally disincentivize players who WANT to do hard mode. Doesn't mean they WONT do it, but they may not feel rewarded and just breeze through with no need to return only to be left right back with the same options before hardmode got introduced.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: why would anyone spend resources to design something they don't WANT you to play?
Yes, having an easy way to get to higher level content is great, but they could really test the waters with some nice reactionary change of pace. I also wonder what Hard Modes are gonna do for the already high level content....do we get hard mode sorties, arbitrations, ESO? See where the can of worms starts to spiral. Without proper preparation, you'll end up giving people level 180 base content at the hardest difficulty then say go back to doing level 60 arbitrations when they're finished.

 

 

I say Imagine if they added a variety of arbitration drones to the spawn system of all hard missions:
Regular Drone: Requires weapon to damage
Bulwark Drone: Requires ability to damage
Kuva Drone: Requires CC to be damaged (Void blast/dash at minimum).
Sentient Drone: Requires void damage (Amp) to destroy (Don't even get me started on Operator/amp progression or lack thereof)

This is more than just the "Don't use abilities X.D." meta that current arbitrations forms where exalted/CC frames are just smacked in the face and players tank + AOE/Melee to win. It could even get more varied just from the base where say eximus enemies take significantly reduced damage from all but one damage type that can be reset with void damage (like a mini profit taker mechanic so we actually use MORE THAN ONE WEAPON/element to be efficient or prepare with team-play).

Then the rare boss spawns could be guaranteed and more frequent in the harder missions: G3, Zanuka, Stalker, Juggernaut etc.

Could also mix in uniques like Wolf, Liches, Warframe Specteres (after junction clears)

Remove consumables (honestly I have a huge problem with consumables in general, giving players more sustainable energy, health and ammo systems seems a better design than hot-keying pads)


That's just on the variety and reactionary aspect. In terms of rewards Arbitration drone addition could link to vitus essence which could provide a nice generalization to the reward system (instead of a convoluted drop table) more short term rewards (mods/weapons) or result in dusting off/improving of evergreen systems, like Kuva/Rivens/Focus. Then opening up every Syndicate to use vitus essence players could have lower shop costs with their allied syndicates and higher with opposing. 

 

 

But that's just one possible approach to expanding on the systems presented to players and it's a whole mess of work just to get people out of the simulacrum (I kid, I kid), so hahaha enemy level go brrrrrr.

 

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4 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Proof? 

Your several upon several posts where you want things implemented in WF that comes from completely different genres and mechanical system setups. Your ideas are like asking for trinity raids to be implemented in WF or adding WFs parkour system to a tab target game.

All the things you want are great, but they belong in those games with those system mechanics, with that type of monster density and behavior.

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32 minutes ago, Sven_Lazar said:

wall-of-text ...Not all players, you didnt read previous messages. ...wall-of-text

It doesn't matter, all it matters for any activity from the player or company perspective is "is it profitable?".
Profit from the point of the majority of players in any game is a reward/sigh for the work put in, because people are always striving to be better then the rest and want to show it.
From the company perspective is "is this thing getting us more players/play time/interest in our product from witch we get money".
The things you say are purely subjective and are only for a small minority of players in any game.

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3 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

It doesn't matter, all it matters for any activity from the player or company perspective is "is it profitable?".
Profit from the point of the majority of players in any game is a reward/sigh for the work put in, because people are always striving to be better then the rest and want to show it.
From the company perspective is "is this thing getting us more players/play time/interest in our product from witch we get money".
The things you say are purely subjective and are only for a small minority of players in any game.

I think you over-estimate your own subjective outlook.

Fun is Profit.

After playing these kinds of games for almost 20 years, it's easy to see fun is subjective, but the moment you start trying to say those that only those that play for fun are a small minority without any real proof, you are just making things up to suit your narrative.

Andvancement is part of the fun of these kinds of games, no doubt.

There are all kinds of games that have no real progression in the game that people love to play.

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7 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

...

I say that the small minority is the ones that play only for fun.Everyone plays for fun in the big picture.Even competitive gamers have fun, it's just that their fun is to win.
The point is the only part is for the minority and even they have a profit - I've seen many videos, posts, screenshot with mission times, kill etc etc to show to others.
It is the same thing and if you can't understand that you just want to test your keyboard.

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Il y a 4 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

"Some players will" wont be a thing, not when you look at the actual scenario. Yes some will play it and get kuva doing so, but if the focus s on efficiency as I mentioned then people wont run it. You also miss the part with "the ones that originally asked for it" that the players who did have also been asking for scaling endless rewards to make pushing worthwhile. Slapping on hard/ultra without increased rewards will just make the thing end up being used as much as conclave or long endless currently are, which isnt alot. This itself kinda kills the point of spending dev time on it. And with the changes to melee, statuses and enemy scaling there is even less reason to push just for the sake of testing yourself.

What scenario exactly ? 🙂 If you are reffering to the number of players that are against it in this topic this dosnt represent the exact percentage of all of them. Some will change opinion when it comes out, be it against or for playing it and the most of the community are just playing the game right now and dont care about the forum. Like myself before.   

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The thing is that your thinking is backwards. Those that dont want increased reward yields are the ones that look at it as if it forced since they'll "miss out" if they dont wanna or can do it. And looking at the time it took for them to add HM I'd say I'd probably quit instead of asking when I run out of things to do.

You say that my thinking is backwards and no offense, but yours is confusing me 😕 So to clearify things: I'm saying that those, like me, that dont want increased rewards are actually the ones that dont want people to feel bad not doing it or can't doing it. If DE decide to add more rewards in UHM, everyone will want to rush it, complains without end, bringing frustration and toxicity and competition into it, ruining the fun for those who just asked for the shortcut to UHM just to have simple fun without rewards in the first place.

We are the ones that asked for this upcoming shortcut to UHM in the first place, we dont see it as something forced, we see it as something useful that will help us have fun faster than it is actually because at the moment we have to waste 1 hour or more slaying low level ennemies before accessing it and have fun.

You guys should look at this upcoming shorcut as an alternative difficulty designed for old players that you can do too if you want to test yourself but without rewards and without complaining.

Ultra Hard Mode ALREADY EXIST. What they took so long to make is the shortcut to access what you call "the new hardmode" easier. ^^ 

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You call others "mindless" yet you somehow actually find "fun" in murdering hordes with no effort and rewards? Isnt that the very meaning of mindless, doing something without an actual endgoal? WF will never sustain itself on the combat and gameplay it has because it isnt engaging, just as D3 and PoE cant sustain themselves without loot, hence why people play them for 2-3 weeks at a time each few months when new seasons/leagues gets added. I used to be able to sit down and play old games without pixel rewards because the gameplay itself was rewarding, that isnt the case for most arpgs (or MMORPGS), where the loot grind instead is the selling point backed up by mass slaughter of mobs.

WHAT ?! Where did I write "mindless" ?? Easy to put words in my mouth without quoting it, quote where I writed that "others are mindless" please because I dont like liars. 😕 If you refer to the "brainwhash" part then I was talking about manipulation but I certainly didnt say "mindless" wich is a word traduction of "stupid". "brainwashed" and "mindless" are not the same thing so avoid claiming or lying something false that I didnt say. 

And Indeed, I have fun while not getting any special rewards because fun IS my reward as for another exemple, if I get a mission failed screen I dont get mad or complain, I just say to myself "it's ok, we will do it again, I had fun anyway ^^ " instead of being toxic flaming others or get frustrated like "sh*t ALL THAT FOR NOTHING, this game sucks, I had no fun because of this !" . That's the good attitude to have and it's not even an "in my opinion" thing because it's how it's supposed to be in all games. 

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If my parents told me to stop then so be it,

Hm, This answer kinda feels like unrealistic, I mean, you were not a little soldier devoid of emotions, if you wanted it and didnt get it, you'd feel frustrated or even sad. This response is a bit too mature while imagining yourself as a kid and it sounds like it's the proud present you that answered the question, but fine. More realistically, most greedy children (not an offense, talking about young ones) get frustrated or at least sad when they didnt get what they want. Just to be clear I didnt ask you that to make fun of you, I'm not here for that guys. 🙂 

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the coin wasnt a mechanic of the game, the coin was just the method of the time regarding how you payed for access to the game. You cant live in a mindset where 40+ year old tech was approached a different way, alot has happened since then. Since the mid 80's we buy the games we want, games that come with artificial pixel loot as a carrot to keep up playing, or endless levels to climb as we pick holes in the ceiling as we watch out for icetaps falling on our head or fluffy little creatures trying to chew us up.

The coin is a metaphoric image of the representation of the "loss" you put into the game after playing. In warframe, the coin can represent the time you put in a mode or missions. I put my coins in and have fun without worrying about the scores and I always stop with a feeling of satisfaction because the coins were worth it. You put your coins in and only have fun if you get to the high scores (methaphoric to the rewards) but if you cant succeed, you stop with frustration or unsatisfied finding it not worth it. It's a difference between two kinds of players. Again, it's not a competition in "i have more fun than you haha!" I'm just saying that if youd care less about competition or rewards, you would get more fun and in each everygame.

Wait... When you say "we buy games that come with artificial pixel loot carrot to keep up playing" Are you actually saying that you are a donkey, an animal that needs treats to keep advancing ? (Just reapeating what you say, dont say I invented that) Wow... I mean, everyone finds that normal ? Wasnt expecting that. Guys, you're not animals, dont let society make animals of you, we are humans, we do right things not for rewards but because it's what good and intelligent species do. So if I dont need a carrot, what does it makes me ?

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What the hell does competition have to do with wanting loot?

Just to be clear in case there was a misunderstanding, it will logically be the same loot as normal star system so there will be some, just NOT MORE. Some people in this topic fear that if there is more loot or rewards, people will use it as a mean to make fun of them or force them doing it by making them feel bad. Wich I can understand, they are right on that because it will happen if there will be more ressources or rewards.

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Also, nothing about wanting extra loot prevents anyone from anything.

Yes, it will prevent the people to have peaceful fun between passionates WF lover players that just want fun in their dedicated HMs, as I already explained above. Even if it gives just a bit of more ressources, it will bring greedy players in, that will then still complains about it (since they cant have fun without rewards) being too hard or not enough and we are tired or seeing "LOL wth it's bullsh*t", "wth it's not worth it" or people rage quitting. If that could help us being a full squad of passionates (newer or old) players, we certainly would prefer it. We already have plenty ways of getting stuff/rewards/loot even apart of Nightwaves and as you say, you will quit playing WF when you will get them so why trying to fasten it and ruin our fun ? When I say i'm against more rewards, It's for the game well being and others people too, not just me. I'm an altruist, I enjoy sharing my knowledge without gaining anything back.

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Stop making up phantom reasons regarding why loot shouldnt be increased. More loot will have no negative impact at all, it will however have positive impact since it will increase the use of a HM or UHM implementation. No one will complain about a mode getting extra loot, it will not make them avoid it. The opposite will happen though if there isnt loot, several people wont bother with it because there is no reason if loot is what they are after. Personally there isnt a single mission I play if there isnt a reward to it that I seek, adding +50/100 levels wont change that for me. Add increased loot yield to those +50/100 levels and I'll play it always over low level missions. We can already mimic hardmode through arbitrations, a mode that even has special mechanics to make it "harder" than what HM will be. I havent been running it in ages since I got all the rewards I need from there.

They are not phantom reasons, I've been playing for 7 years and that's what I observed and learned until now wich is confirmed with this topic. Most people here dont actually know what is good for the game or how to have real fun, to the point that they have difficulties imagining how a game without more rewards could be fun in any way. It even showed the toxicity of a part of the community and they incapacity to debate while keeping their calm.

This topic is really interesting and I'm really curious of  everyone's opinion, thats why I quote a lot, sorry about that 😄 

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