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Kitgun primaries dissapointing


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On 2020-06-11 at 11:11 PM, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

So they're the kitguns but in the primary slot, why do people keep expecting something different? What did they expect in the first place? It's a kitgun primary, what was the primary version suppose to do? Nuke the map without pulling the trigger?

As you can see, folk expected them to be at least the same strength; instead they are weaker by a good amount with very little to redeem them. Did you expect a one handed zaw to behave in a different way than a two handed zaw? Perhaps your question was asked from the corner with an appropriate head decoration; but no; they expected weapons that were worth the effort to make the trigger and then use them.

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2 hours ago, Urlan said:

As you can see, folk expected them to be at least the same strength; instead they are weaker by a good amount with very little to redeem them. Did you expect a one handed zaw to behave in a different way than a two handed zaw? Perhaps your question was asked from the corner with an appropriate head decoration; but no; they expected weapons that were worth the effort to make the trigger and then use them.

Wow that's some salt

But did people really think the primary versions were going to out damage the secondaries? The secondaries that have better damage mods over the primaries really?

Ah yes it's totally gonna do more damage with 55% less damage and 90% less multishot. The main reason why i thought people wanted primary kitguns is cause of mods like hunter munitions not because they want more damage, that's idiotic for wanting more damage from kitguns they already eclipse most secondaries and you want that to happen to primaries?

Some people want power creep to destroy the game and they don't even know it.

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48 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Wow that's some salt

But did people really think the primary versions were going to out damage the secondaries? The secondaries that have better damage mods over the primaries really?

Ah yes it's totally gonna do more damage with 55% less damage and 90% less multishot. The main reason why i thought people wanted primary kitguns is cause of mods like hunter munitions not because they want more damage, that's idiotic for wanting more damage from kitguns they already eclipse most secondaries and you want that to happen to primaries?

Some people want power creep to destroy the game and they don't even know it.

If people think that progression is power creep, they obviously understand the concept.

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I fail to see how all these "countercomplainers" have a point here.

New content, especially content that requires a significant grind to experience fully should not be dead on arrival. Is it salty to expect there to be some kind of competitive reward for the effort of obtaining it? Or are people fine with development time wasted on content that doesn't see any use because it sucks?

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3 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

I fail to see how all these "countercomplainers" have a point here.

New content, especially content that requires a significant grind to experience fully should not be dead on arrival. Is it salty to expect there to be some kind of competitive reward for the effort of obtaining it? Or are people fine with development time wasted on content that doesn't see any use because it sucks?

Kitguns aren't significant grind... unless you call 2 hours of chill farming that way.

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3 hours ago, Nesodos said:

Kitguns aren't significant grind... unless you call 2 hours of chill farming that way.

Silly me, i didn't realize Old Mate at T5 solaris rep to gild and customize with the full parts list and arcanes only took two hours.

Must have forgotten that part 🤔

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb (XB1)The Neko Otaku:

Wow that's some salt

But did people really think the primary versions were going to out damage the secondaries?

Doing the same damage isn't doing more damage. Stop using strawman arguments.

Primary kitguns being as good as secondary kitguns isn't power creep, it's not even progression - these are weapons that become available at the same time for the same ressources from the same NPC. Them having the same general power level is an absolute no-brainer.

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2 hours ago, Krankbert said:

Doing the same damage isn't doing more damage. Stop using strawman arguments.

Primary kitguns being as good as secondary kitguns isn't power creep, it's not even progression - these are weapons that become available at the same time for the same ressources from the same NPC. Them having the same general power level is an absolute no-brainer.

But secondary don't have hunter munition. How do you calculate the trade off for hunter munition. I just saw a video about primary tombfinger, it got charge shot, mf just like kuva bramma. That's way powerful than secondary tombfinger.

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41 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Do the primary kitguns give separate MR?

Sorry, no; they are still using the same chambers so they will share the same mastery rank if you mastered them as pistols already. Hope that helps.

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Good. Wasnt looking forward to having every primary be made irrelevant with the equivalent kit gun like they did with Melee and then Secondaries. 

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On 2020-06-12 at 3:28 AM, Nesodos said:

You combined projectile and explosion damage for the pistol but not for the primary. (91 projectile + 89 explosion, 30% falloff at 1.9 range)

Fast shot from the primary deals 224 damage and charge does 606 damage. (25% & 70% falloff at range of 1.7 & 6.2)


These aren't exact bc the system works a bit different than just combining them but it fits your comparison.

 

PS: You also neglect that secondaries have a slower rof than the primaries

You seem to be forgetting that the second multi-shot mod for secondaries boosts fire rate by 60% which is actually significant as there is no +multishot +firerate mod for primaries.

For example...

Secondary Rattleguts with max fire-rate and crit (for pure brrrt shenanigans)

  • Crit Chance 33.0% (same)
  • Crit Damage 2.3x (same)
  • Fire Rate 11.0 vs 17.0
  • Magazine 67 (same)
  • Reload 1.7 (same)
  • Status Chance 11.0% (same)

Damage

  • Impact 7.0 vs 0.5
  • Puncture 5.0 vs 3.5
  • Slash 10.0 vs 1.5
  • Radiation 0 vs 7.5

Total 22.0 vs 13.0

So the secondary Rattleguts has 69.2% higher base damage than the primary, and when you factor in Lethal Torrent, it's fire rate increases to 17.6 which is 3.59% faster than the primary. Couple that with the primed mods secondaries have, and the base damage mod secondaries have, and you end up seeing that the secondary rattleguts is better in literally all metrics, even uptime, because secondaries can use Arcane Pistoleer, which allows you to just keep shooting. So on paper sure, the primary Catchmoon and Rattleguts shoot 'faster' but only if you willfully ignore what mods they will undoubtedly use compared to their secondary counterparts.

 

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Combine Tombfinger (Chamber) + Tremor (Grip) + Killstream (Loader) and you now have a primary semi-automatic laser rifle that's also an OP Bramma without bomb-lets. So far that I've tested it, it's probably the newest best OP primary weapon in WF.

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb (PS4)caoshen0625:

But secondary don't have hunter munition. How do you calculate the trade off for hunter munition.

With math, like everything else. That's also not really releveant to my comment or the one I responded to. I was arguing that they ought to be equal in response to someone who was arguing that they shouldn't be. Thinking that they should be worse is an asinine opinion to have, no matter whether they're actually worse or not.

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14 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Silly me, i didn't realize Old Mate at T5 solaris rep to gild and customize with the full parts list and arcanes only took two hours.

Must have forgotten that part 🤔

You need to be "Doer" at T3 to gild them and only need T5 to get the max out of the system. Even at lower tiers you can make very strong guns with endgame viability.

The type of content thats directed at people who already have endgame gear isn't meant to be acquired immediately. (even less so by new players)
You need 240k standing to reach T5 from neutral. Thats maximum a month of lazy grind to max it out. (unless you are not equipped to reach that content yet)
The mats for the kitgun can be harvested in less than 2 hours if you have reached the point at which you are supposed to acquire them.

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5 hours ago, Nox_Terminus said:

You seem to be forgetting that the second multi-shot mod for secondaries boosts fire rate by 60% which is actually significant as there is no +multishot +firerate mod for primaries.

For example...

Secondary Rattleguts with max fire-rate and crit (for pure brrrt shenanigans)

  • Crit Chance 33.0% (same)
  • Crit Damage 2.3x (same)
  • Fire Rate 11.0 vs 17.0
  • Magazine 67 (same)
  • Reload 1.7 (same)
  • Status Chance 11.0% (same)

Damage

  • Impact 7.0 vs 0.5
  • Puncture 5.0 vs 3.5
  • Slash 10.0 vs 1.5
  • Radiation 0 vs 7.5

Total 22.0 vs 13.0

So the secondary Rattleguts has 69.2% higher base damage than the primary, and when you factor in Lethal Torrent, it's fire rate increases to 17.6 which is 3.59% faster than the primary. Couple that with the primed mods secondaries have, and the base damage mod secondaries have, and you end up seeing that the secondary rattleguts is better in literally all metrics, even uptime, because secondaries can use Arcane Pistoleer, which allows you to just keep shooting. So on paper sure, the primary Catchmoon and Rattleguts shoot 'faster' but only if you willfully ignore what mods they will undoubtedly use compared to their secondary counterparts.

 

The catchmoon and rattleguts primaries are trash anyway and need a serious buff. (Tombfinger is a monster)

I was only pointing out that the comparison of the OP lacks depth.

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hace 11 minutos, Nesodos dijo:

The catchmoon and rattleguts primaries are trash anyway and need a serious buff. (Tombfinger is a monster)

I was only pointing out that the comparison of the OP lacks depth.

Rattleguts may be not so trash as you think... But any weapon is a trash compared to hybrid shotguns, everybody knows. Its just a matter of forma and mod configuration.

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3 hours ago, Krankbert said:

With math, like everything else. That's also not really releveant to my comment or the one I responded to. I was arguing that they ought to be equal in response to someone who was arguing that they shouldn't be. Thinking that they should be worse is an asinine opinion to have, no matter whether they're actually worse or not.

That's what I'm asking bro, what's the math. Hunter munition is chance based slash proc which by pass armor. Just like status & crit chance we need standard normal distribution for that shet. So even tho primaries damage status is lower, the TTK might be better. I'm just saying it might be better than kitgun, tho I can't test yet. 

And after reading comment you are responding to, yeah it's irrelevant. 

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