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Loki - Underpowered[?]


Xixos
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So hey guys, prior to reading this understand I am a relatively new member to this whole game, and I have only played one Warframe alone, Loki, so my opinion may be short-sighted, have to do with my lack of success with Loki, probably having to do with my lack of skill, but nevertheless I do make some valid points throughout this.

Loki's Armor, Health, & Shield
Now to sacrifice for agility, Loki generally sacrifices some of it's more enduring abilities, to be more agile, and have more team-boosting powers. Although there really isn't a point to where the statistics reach an even state, perhaps if Loki had more powerful abilities I would see so; let's compare the three starter Warframes.

Loki - Level 1
Health - 75
Shield - 75
Power - 150
Armor -  50 
Sprint Speed - 1.6

Notice Loki sacrifices 25 Health & Shield for +50 Power, and +0.6 Speed; on statistics, Loki even seems exactly statistically balanced with Mag, but I'll get to why this doesn't function in a moment.


Excalibur - Level 1
Health - 100
Shield - 100
Power - 100
Armor - 50 
Sprint Speed - 1.0


Notice Excalibur has strong Power, Shield & Health, although with the ability of devastating melee blows, perfect for newcomers. 

Mag - Level 1
Health - 75
Shield - 150
Power - 100
Armor - 50
Sprint Speed - 1.6

Notice how Mag sacrifices 25 Health for +50 Shield & +0.6 Speed, that is less than Loki.

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Mag, will last longer in battle by a long run, the Shield bonus is elite, especially for a starting Warframe, Mag has basically received a bonus of +25% protection, when you think about it. Mag looses 25% Health, and gains %50 Shield. And along the way still gets the same agility that Loki has. With an additional abnormally powerful recharge, gameplay wise, and statistically, Mag matches just fine with Excalibur, Excalibur is the gear that shifts everything, we just can't modify it, it's a cog that can not be removed.

Therefore we have two things to do if my argument is correct, we could nerf [decrease] the abilities of Mag, or we could buff [increase] the abilities of Loki, now before getting onto this, realize that from personal experience, Loki dies easily, and even though with the Decoy and Invisibility powers, plus the escape power, it changes the whole feel. If I can go a single game without dying, or in need of a revive, that means I'm either on some random level on Mercury/Venus, or I literally ran and kept going invisible throughout the round, Loki's don't stand a chance on their own, they're more of a team player, but the issue is clear, the moment Loki is left behind in a battle will multiple opponents, even basic and stuck in one position, the Loki is screwed, it happens so frequently I can't even remember the last round I didn't have to scream in the chat to remind people that I'm down, because they're way ahead of me expecting to be fine, rightfully so, no other class quite lacks this defensive capabilities.

An argument I suppose is that with Invisibility and Decoy, and the increase in Power, Loki can escape these scenarios, perhaps it's my personal skill level, although this is flat out false; Loki can only escape a handful of scenarios he/she has to eventually run out of Energy, on any mobile mission with would be about 4/5ths of missions. And this is getting lengthy, so please take into your own account to note the lack of power in the Loki abilities in comparison to Mag's. 
http://warframeinfo.com/warframes/mag/
http://warframeinfo.com/warframes/loki/

We can't nerf Mag, because if we are to Nerf Mag it is weak in comparison to Excalibur, which already stated is not something we can change without completely altering the state of the game, therefore leaving us to buff Loki.

Loki Buff Proposal
Add +25 Shield
Make Radial Disarm instantly kill MOAs.

Don't have time for my rant? TL;DR
Loki is weak statistically, read the fancy numbers above for all that cool stuff. Especially in comparison to Excalibur and Mag, I explained how Excalibur really is a cog that definitely can't be moved, and we can't leave it behind, so we can't modify that, although to nerf [decrease] the abilities of Mag would mean it is obsolete to Excalibur, which already can't be changed for reasons stated above. That means the only option would be to buff [increase] the abilities of Loki, Buff Proposal right above this. 

Thanks for reading, I know it's a wall of text, oh right, does this Forum have Spoilers? heh..


 

 

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inb4 "lrn2play"

 

 

As a Loki, I must explain you this:

lrn2play

 

Loki is fine. He was even described as being "for advanced players", because his gameplay involves avoiding damage in the first place. If you're getting hit too much, then that's your problem, not the class's.

In addition, after upgrading with mods at later levels, Loki can easily stay invisible for entire runs, even while solo.

Edited by SortaRandom
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inb4 "lrn2play"

 

 

As a Loki, I must explain you this:

lrn2play

 

Loki is fine. He was even described as being "for advanced players", because his gameplay involves avoiding damage in the first place. If you're getting hit too much, then that's your problem, not the class's.

In addition, after upgrading with mods at later levels, Loki can easily stay invisible for entire runs, even while solo.

Eh, I see what you're saying, and I warned you guys that I am a bit short-sighted currently, even though I'n advanced in these sort of games, I am rather new to this whole Warframe experience, only playing for around a week long, perhaps I ran into this issue and acted to quickly. One thing I was expecting was a lot of this "lrn2play" sorta stuff, because a majority of you are high level players, you haven't encountered Loki in a while. I'm not getting hit too much, well, I am, but I simply don't find that the decrease in Shields and Health make up for the Power abilities, all of Loki's abilities are based on escaping scenarios, too make up for it, which in turn make really Radial Disarm the only one that can really turn the tides of a tough battle. 

 

Your numbers aren't even right. Mag is nowhere near that fast.

 

I am aware that Mag doesn't have the same Speed, but Mag's sprint speed is that, I'm sorry I couldn't find those numbers.

http://warframeinfo.com/warframes/mag/

 

Loki is one of my favorite frames!

Give him max duration on his powers and have fun.

I suppose you're right, but I feel that there is sort of.. well the best way to explain it is, I'm kind of getting the message that no one really understood what I said, mainly being: Loki doesn't really receive the defensive capabilities in Power to make up for it's lack of defense, as stated before, perhaps a better solution would be to change some of the abilities such as Decoy and Switch Teleport with Defense supportive roles. Loki simply doesn't stand a chance on it's own, and that is why I have to be "right there" with someone.

Wait! Here's the issue, I suppose what I didn't explain but what I have been thinking of is that Loki is a starting Warframe, and it simply doesn't cut it for new players, Loki is hard to adapt to for new players, and that is what I'm really trying to explain. When experienced obviously Loki is up there with the best.

Edited by Xixos
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Tips:

Potato him and level him to 30 ASAP.
Get all the duration mods ASAP.
Get a good melee weapon (Galatine is great, but I think it has a Master requirement of 3).

Stay invisible, enemies can't see you and you get a melee buff.
Melee a lot and/or take advantage of your invisibility by shooting at enemy weakspots.


Who says you have to run away? I charge towards enemies, and he's pretty good for solo'ing.

 

Edit:

If you're looking for a frame that sacrifices defense for power you'd be looking for Nova. Sacrificing defense for support? Probably Nekros or Vauban. I'm not entirely sure what Loki is supposed to be used for, I just know what I use him for.

Edited by SquirmyBurrito
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I suppose I was incorrect, thanks for the tips and suggestions. :)

Mainly what I still am sticking with personally is.. you guys are right, it is perfectly balanced, I was wrong, but there still is the issue personally that if it's one of the starter Warframes takes a while to become really worth it's abilities, I think there is a slight issue.

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Made the mistake of making a Loki first. So hard to play other frames now cause he's so beast.

 

As far as improvements, I kinda wish Decoy had a secondary effect. Once its killed it hits enemies with a armor/dmg/slow/hello kitty debuff or something.

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I don't get why people think that Excalibur is a melee frame.

Seriously

SERIOUSLY

He's a mobile versatile jack of all trades, able to conform to any situation. 

Loki is the real melee frame of the game. (Either him or Ash)

If you die as a frame with INVISIBILITY then you're doing it wrong

Really wrong.

Don't make frame analysis without knowledge of the frame being analysed.

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Might be a bit daunting for beginners, but it did say its for advance players.  

I chose Loki as my first frame, thought it was crap but realised its strengths.  Tried other frames including Nova.   What I can say though. With the right weapons accompanying Loki.  Loki has the highest survival rate of any frame, with Rhino in 2nd place. And survival has its merits. 

 

Though that said, loki does have some issues being the decoy life and radial disarm which radial disarm not affect infected.

Your proposal with the shield buff is meaningless to Loki as it has invisibility. 

Edited by Tempsgk
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Loki is the frame I use when I don't think another 'frame can do the job. The only exception I can think of is infested defenses, on every other map I tend to fall back on my Loki if it feels too difficult.

Also, I am getting really tired of this whole "Loki's defensive stats are too low T_T" nonsense. He has 4 abilities that can and should be used to avoid damage, if you're getting hit that much it means you're not playing him the right way. I will admit that it isn't the easiest thing in the game but we are talking about the suit "designed for advanced players". If you don't like Loki, don't play him, if you chose him as your starter I hope you get better with him. I've said before in other threads that he really shouldn't be a starter 'frame though.

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I pretty much agree with the general consensus of this thread: loki is a great frame, but certainly more advanced. This post however seems like exactly the kind of feedback that DE would find useful. Many of us have been in the game so long that we have forgotten what its like to have only ever used one frame with a minimal amount of mods.

Perhaps loki is really a poor choice to have as a starting frame due to the reasons mentioned above and could be swapped for a frame that is a little more intuitive right out of the gate.

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