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Why did parvos not get a prime protea?


(XBOX)Cyrex XIII
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3 minutes ago, Genitive said:

Because, contrary to what a lot of people say, primes are not the original versions of warframes.

Then whats all the "Warframes from the Orokin era" all about with primes, I mean they should be from loooong ago, and the regular versions we get are just copies. Or maybe you mean umbras are the originals

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I think it's that the original protea was given to parvos, aka a prototype but her full potential wasn't unlocked until they designed the prime version. Think of it like a new warframe is built to test its abilities, and if it does well then the orokin would unlock its full potential by making a prime. 

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1 minute ago, Lazarow said:

Then whats all the "Warframes from the Orokin era" all about with primes, I mean they should be from loooong ago, and the regular versions we get are just copies. Or maybe you mean umbras are the originals

Primes are from the Orokin era, but that doesn't mean they were first. They were crafted and used during that time.

Think of it like that: a warframe is created and used by the Tenno. It doesn't matter if it is used by only one Tenno or mass produced. After some time the design is improved and distributed among the most distinguished warriors, hence it is much less common than their non-prime counterparts. Primes are described as essentially ultimate versions of their non-prime counterparts. When designing something, you usually don't create the final version first and then downgrade it. You improve on an existing design. 

Also lore makes more sense when you think about it like that, as why we find non-prime frames during quests. Protea is a good example, the original, one of a kind, was given to Parvos Granum, but prime version was probably developed after some time.

Of course the game doesn't downright state which came the first, but some item description suggest that non-primes were the original designs, such as Odonata Prime: This enhanced version of the first Archwing prototype takes the design to its theoretical limits.

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My thought is that...

Parvos doesn't clearly state if was he given Prime or not. In final battle we meet Protea's specter, not the frame itself. It could be specter which was degraded from Prime.

As well as blueprint reward we get after it.

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49 minutes ago, Lazarow said:

Then whats all the "Warframes from the Orokin era" all about with primes, I mean they should be from loooong ago, and the regular versions we get are just copies. Or maybe you mean umbras are the originals

The eight Umbras came first, yes. They were shelved for a while because they couldn't be controlled. Then the Zariman Children found a way to control them, and the Warframe project was started (source: Sacrifice)

The Warframe Project created the non-Primes, proverbial prototypes and concept cars. Then they were handed over to the Orokin to be turned into mass-produced superior Prime variants (source: Silver Grove)

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8 hours ago, bl1te said:

My thought is that...

Parvos doesn't clearly state if was he given Prime or not. In final battle we meet Protea's specter, not the frame itself. It could be specter which was degraded from Prime.

As well as blueprint reward we get after it.

I had the same thinking. Since the protea we get is just a specter of a degraded past form, maybe the original was a prime one.

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17 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

The eight Umbras came first, yes. They were shelved for a while because they couldn't be controlled. Then the Zariman Children found a way to control them, and the Warframe project was started (source: Sacrifice)

The Warframe Project created the non-Primes, proverbial prototypes and concept cars. Then they were handed over to the Orokin to be turned into mass-produced superior Prime variants (source: Silver Grove)

I can agree with your second point but the first point with the 8 umbras? I don't know where you got that from. The first umbra was made from a dax soldier who was spying on ballas. 

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Not sure about the eight Umbras, but the lore does hint of more than one.

Quote

We had created monsters we couldn't control. We drugged them, tortured them, eviscerated them... We brutalized their minds... but it did not work. Until they came. And it was not their force of will - not their Void devilry - not their alien darkness... It was something else. It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing-- And take away its pain.

Ballas

Quote taken from the wiki. We had created "monsters", plural, indicating more than one. The plurality continued with "drugged them", "tortured them", "eviscerated them", "brutalized their minds".

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5 minutes ago, Jemmies said:

Not sure about the eight Umbras, but the lore does hint of more than one.

Quote taken from the wiki. We had created "monsters", plural, indicating more than one. The plurality continued with "drugged them", "tortured them", "eviscerated them", "brutalized their minds".

It's talking about Warframes in general. Nothing in this quote is about Umbras specifically.
All we know so far is that Excal Umbra was made by Ballas without anyone else knowing about it. A rogue Warframe.
So we actually don't have any information if there are more Umbras or not.

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Omg I have just figured out the lore. 

So as said before the non primes were the first prototypes, the orokin then made a deal with parvos for the specter particles to try and control them but some weren't so willing as the infestation took over [as seen with chroma] so they were somewhat unreliable. But the ones that were controlled got assigned to protect figures like parvos or the solar rails. The orokin didn't really start using them themselves until they found the tenno which then reinforced the orokin to start mass producing the warframes and making some prime warframes for themselves.  The reason some warframes can talk like the stalkers, protea or the rail specters is because they retain their consciousness and ability to speak. Umbra couldnt speak because ballas made him unable to do so. Also the reason why umbra and the stalkers aren't easily or at all controlled is because their consciousness is so filled with hatred and vengence that it rejects the control of the infestation or the specter particles out of sheer will

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1 minute ago, (XB1)TheRShadow said:

Omg I have just figured out the lore. 

So as said before the non primes were the first prototypes, the orokin then made a deal with parvos for the specter particles to try and control them but some weren't so willing as the infestation took over [as seen with chroma] so they were somewhat unreliable. But the ones that were controlled got assigned to protect figures like parvos or the solar rails. The orokin didn't really start using them themselves until they found the tenno which then reinforced the orokin to start mass producing the warframes and making some prime warframes for themselves.  The reason some warframes can talk like the stalkers, protea or the rail specters is because they retain their consciousness and ability to speak. Umbra couldnt speak because ballas made him unable to do so. Also the reason why umbra and the stalkers aren't easily or at all controlled is because their consciousness is so filled with hatred and vengence that it rejects the control of the infestation or the specter particles out of sheer will

And since when is Stalker a Warframe?
Which bit of Lore gave us this information? óÒ

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18 minutes ago, Jemmies said:

Not sure about the eight Umbras, but the lore does hint of more than one.

Quote taken from the wiki. We had created "monsters", plural, indicating more than one. The plurality continued with "drugged them", "tortured them", "eviscerated them", "brutalized their minds".

Also maybe the reason there are more umbras and the fact that they are different is because ballas oversees them and maybe used them as his bodyguards. Being the one that oversees and builds warframes he would've needed loads of protection

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6 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

And since when is Stalker a Warframe?
Which bit of Lore gave us this information? óÒ

Second dream... Hunhow literally implies it multiple times. Also how do you explain him looking like a more evil excalibur and having warframe powers? Also remember that he has acolytes aswell and they look like the other warframes aswell. He's also got that specter voice like protea and the rail specters, same goes for his acolytes

Edited by (XB1)TheRShadow
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33 minutes ago, Jemmies said:

Not sure about the eight Umbras, but the lore does hint of more than one.

Quote taken from the wiki. We had created "monsters", plural, indicating more than one. The plurality continued with "drugged them", "tortured them", "eviscerated them", "brutalized their minds".

Those are Bio-Drones, essentially proto warframes made before Silvana was brought on, wasn't said to be any particular number, but Helminth would be used to culture and spin up some strains with particular powers and try to retain the mind of the "volunteers, willing or not" and the Orokin Elite like Ballas would deliberately infect outer colonies at the forefront of the Sentient Invasion to make an army of thinking super soldiers that got Void energy beamed from Lua's Reservoirs (before we were stored there so no connection to us). Eventually, while most folk don't know the bio-drones and silvana surrogates were different - Ballas called bio-drones "frames of war" too - the creatures turned on the Orokin for one reason or another and so the Executors had them ordered to be studied and then purged. Umbra Excalibur is stated to be unique, mixing both of what came before, a surrogate warframe, but with the Helminth modifications to preserve some aspects of the mind - in this case killing his son mostly - which might be repeatable after a sense if we involved Helminth and got enough Somatic Fibers to isolate former victims preserved eternal within the Technocyte strands.

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19 hours ago, Lazarow said:

Then whats all the "Warframes from the Orokin era" all about with primes, I mean they should be from loooong ago, and the regular versions we get are just copies. Or maybe you mean umbras are the originals

No. Non-primes are not later copies.

There are endless examples of non-Prime Warframe actives in Orokin times. Think of Limbo - in the quest, we follow the story of an Orokin-age non-Prime Limbo that became lost in the Void and we retrieve (it is not clear actually where Limbo Prime comes from). Think of Mirage - in the quest, a non-Prime Mirage fights the Sentient, and we reconstruct the BP of her Warframe. Think of Chroma - a non-Prime warframe lost fighting the Sentient.

Think of the Silver Grove, where an Orokin-era Archimedian is responsible for co-creating non-Prime Titania, and then protects the Silver Grove with specters of non-Prime Loki, non-Prime Oberon, and non-Prime Saryn.

The lore is full of Orokin-era non-Prime Warframes. Actually, in every single quest, every single Warframe that is stated to originate from the Orokin times is not a Prime.

 

What was then the role of Primes? Well, at least ten Prime weapons tell you, in their description, that Primes are "ornamental" versions.

That means: the Orokin produced both Prime and non-Prime versions of Warframes and weapons. When a Tenno went into battle they used non-Prime items (maybe lesser quality, but lower cost, they could be wasted in battle with little expense). But, when the Tenno were tasked with higher duties (guarding the Emperors, in ceremonies, or when they had to look regal and representative), some Tenno were given a golden version of their equipment to look more beautiful.

Ornamental, nothing more.

 

The "original" version, by the way, is not the Prime, and probably not even the non-Prime. It is likely that prototype versions of many Warframes existed - of Excalibur, Volt or Glaive we actually do have the prototype version as a deluxe skin. These versions were probably produced in very limited amount (maybe even only one) before the Orokin would come up with a "stable release" version and the "stable deluxe" version.

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There were only a few Prime warframes in the orokin era. Given Umbra's origin, and the sylistic similarities between Umbra and Primes, it's likely that the Primes are also Dax (or some other kind of) soldiers that were turned into warframes.

This couldn't be done on a large scale, as you'd need to kill thousands or millions of your soldiers to create enough prime warframes for the tenno to use.

Instead, they used generic biological matter, or cloning, or some other process to create the normal warframes. Whatever type of human was used to make these frames were not strong Dax warriors used to make the Umbra and Prime frames, and are therefore weaker warframes.

They likely just pawned off a bog standard Protea to Granum to keep him happy, as the Primed Protea (as of the moment, we have never seen two primes of the same type during the orokin era, I believe, so it's up in the air whether there are one or multiple of each prime) would be too valuable an asset to give away.

 

There's a few points in the rest of the thread that I disagree with. One of them being that the Primes were not the first warframes, and that the normal frames came first.

In Ballas' Vitruvian, he speaks about the process of creating the Warframes. Here's the quote in question:

"We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents."

How exactly do you improve on the best possible test subjects? You don't. The first warframes were primes. They were the perfect test subjects, given the full attention of Ballas and his scientists. Of course they were the most powerful versions. The later, normal, warframes were mass produced at cost-cutting quality. A good analogy would be the spartans from the Halo series. There were 30 Spartan IIs, given a huge amount of money and time to perfect. Then came the Spartan IIIs, who numbered in the hundreds and were made quickly and cutting corners. The Spartan IIs were better.

Edited by iLightning13
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24 minutes ago, (XB1)TheRShadow said:

Second dream... Hunhow literally implies it multiple times. Also how do you explain him looking like a more evil excalibur and having warframe powers? Also remember that he has acolytes aswell and they look like the other warframes aswell. He's also got that specter voice like protea and the rail specters, same goes for his acolytes

Can't remember anything from the Second Dream that's hinting he would be a Warframe.
And his body is just outdated. DE still hasn't reworked it.
If you go by your logic about the looks, then we could also say that Liches are Warframes because of the abilities...

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38 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

It's talking about Warframes in general. Nothing in this quote is about Umbras specifically.
All we know so far is that Excal Umbra was made by Ballas without anyone else knowing about it. A rogue Warframe.
So we actually don't have any information if there are more Umbras or not.

That was the bit taken from the Wiki page for Excalibur Umbra, which is possibly from The Sacrifice. It is the process used to create Umbra.

So, not just any warframe.

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23 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Can't remember anything from the Second Dream that's hinting he would be a Warframe.
And his body is just outdated. DE still hasn't reworked it.
If you go by your logic about the looks, then we could also say that Liches are Warframes because of the abilities...

Not just abilities but the cutscenes from the second dream

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2 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Can't remember anything from the Second Dream that's hinting he would be a Warframe.
And his body is just outdated. DE still hasn't reworked it.
If you go by your logic about the looks, then we could also say that Liches are Warframes because of the abilities...

Stalker's base appearance has been altered before. Previously, he was just a recoloured excalibur. Then, they added pieces of umbra to him. He has the extended forearms, silver plates on his side and additional piece on his chest. If they wanted to make sure he wasn't a warframe, they would have changed his appearance to something completely different when they did that.

Hunhow quote:

"All your dread-long life, you've waited for this moment. But you're asking yourself, 'Was I one of these wretched things?' You know the answer. You still hate them. You still hate yourself."

The Stalker hates himself because he believes himself to be a Tenno, or a Warframe at the least. He is of the same race as those who killed the Orokin, and his "way of life". 

You add that to his excalibur powers, his umbra appearance, and his codex entry (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Stalker) there's ample evidence to suggest he's a Warframe. Not only is he a Warframe, but he is likely the only 'self-made' warframe. A low Guardian wouldn't have been transformed into an Umbra warframe by Ballas, there's no way. He was human at the beginning of the Collapse as well, going by his Codex entry. There's a whole chunk of Stalker's story that hasn't been told from the Orokins' execution to his transformation which really needs to be explored. Considering the Stalker's apparent confusion at the revelation that the Tenno control the Warframes, it's clear that he doesn't know whether he is in his own Second Dream, or if he's simply a self-aware warframe like Umbra. This then obviously conflicts with the codex entry - how can he remember the execution of the Orokin and not his own transformation? Well, I don't really have an explanation for that other than convenient amnesia. Alternatively, the Stalker simply remembered what happened AFTER the events of the Second Dream, with the revelation about the warframes triggering centuries-old memories in him.

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5 minutes ago, iLightning13 said:

Stalker's base appearance has been altered before. Previously, he was just a recoloured excalibur. Then, they added pieces of umbra to him. He has the extended forearms, silver plates on his side and additional piece on his chest. If they wanted to make sure he wasn't a warframe, they would have changed his appearance to something completely different when they did that.

Hunhow quote:

"All your dread-long life, you've waited for this moment. But you're asking yourself, 'Was I one of these wretched things?' You know the answer. You still hate them. You still hate yourself."

The Stalker hates himself because he believes himself to be a Tenno, or a Warframe at the least. He is of the same race as those who killed the Orokin, and his "way of life". 

You add that to his excalibur powers, his umbra appearance, and his codex entry (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Stalker) there's ample evidence to suggest he's a Warframe. Not only is he a Warframe, but he is likely the only 'self-made' warframe. A low Guardian wouldn't have been transformed into an Umbra warframe by Ballas, there's no way. He was human at the beginning of the Collapse as well, going by his Codex entry. There's a whole chunk of Stalker's story that hasn't been told from the Orokins' execution to his transformation which really needs to be explored. Considering the Stalker's apparent confusion at the revelation that the Tenno control the Warframes, it's clear that he doesn't know whether he is in his own Second Dream, or if he's simply a self-aware warframe like Umbra. This then obviously conflicts with the codex entry - how can he remember the execution of the Orokin and not his own transformation? Well, I don't really have an explanation for that other than convenient amnesia. Alternatively, the Stalker simply remembered what happened AFTER the events of the Second Dream, with the revelation about the warframes triggering centuries-old memories in him.

First of all thank you and second of all, my theory about him is that he was one of the bio drones before the tenno were discovered that was still in use and when the orokin slaughter happened their control of him disappeared but the reason he is sentient is because like umbra he has a vengeful memory (the orokin slaughter) that gives him the ability to not be controlled by the infestation and have him think for himself. But that then raises the question what about the rail specters and I think that it can be explained simply by the fact that they weren't controlled by the orokin but the original creators or the actual rail itself maybe

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23 minutes ago, (XB1)TheRShadow said:

First of all thank you and second of all, my theory about him is that he was one of the bio drones before the tenno were discovered that was still in use and when the orokin slaughter happened their control of him disappeared but the reason he is sentient is because like umbra he has a vengeful memory (the orokin slaughter) that gives him the ability to not be controlled by the infestation and have him think for himself. But that then raises the question what about the rail specters and I think that it can be explained simply by the fact that they weren't controlled by the orokin but the original creators or the actual rail itself maybe

That's possible, sure.

I'd call some of that into doubt however. In the Vitruvian, Ballas declares that the Bio-Drone warframes were "all of them, failures". I would be very surprised if they kept them alive after how staggeringly badly they performed on the battlefield. Ballas kept Umbra alive to torture him as he was a political enemy. Doing the same to the bio-drones would give him no such satisfaction.

For argument's sake let's say they were still alive. That doesn't explain his place in the parade - from this point I'll refer to the event of the Orokin's execution as 'The Parade' for brevity.

If Stalker was a bio-drone or warframe in active use, he would be controlled by a Tenno, or he himself is a Tenno. They had already planned to execute the Orokin at the Parade. If he disagreed with this, he would have likely left prior to that event - he couldn't have done anything against the thousands of tenno that would have been there (don't get me started on how many tenno there canonically are, it's nuts and frankly makes no sense how we haven't conquered the system yet). Secondly, the Codex says "I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians." If he was a warframe, he would have been front and centre in the parade with the rest of them. We have also never heard of a sect of Tenno called 'Guardians'. So far they've only been divided by the five schools. I would guess that guardians are a group of common foot soldiers, potentially the equivalent of the police or security guards. A low ranking guardian would probably never see an Orokin up-close. He would have never seen their behaviour and had no reason to doubt their propaganda machine touting them as gods. Finally, if he was a bio-drone, he would have been experimented upon by the Orokin, and perhaps would have seen Ballas up close. Going through an experience like that, whether voluntary or not, would have likely soured his view of the Orokin, and he wouldn't be too broken up about their deaths.

This is why I believe he's human at the Parade, and becomes a warframe later. By what means, I have no clue, but it would certainly be interesting to have a story to fill that in. I've always wondered what an Old-War Stalker spin-off would feel like, with melee-only combat and a dark souls-y aesthetic to the infested.

Edited by iLightning13
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