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Why did parvos not get a prime protea?


(XBOX)Cyrex XIII

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2 hours ago, Ender140 said:

The cinematic trailer also had Excalibur one shot a ship with a bow. It's a trailer for warframe for beginners. Exaggeration might've come to play. And because their for new people, the 3 begginer frames were the ones shown

There's a difference between "exaggerating what the player can do" and "lying to the player about the story". You would also have to say Glast Gambit quest is non-canon, because it also says that Nidus not-Prime existed in the Old War

(actually that's a bad example, since 80% of that quest is terrible anyway)

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On 2020-07-25 at 9:17 PM, TARINunit9 said:

That was actually explained in the uh... hang on which one was it... the Flux Rifle's weapon description:

"Laser Rifle with Corpus safe-guards removed."

We can't pick up Deras and Flux Rifles in the middle of a mission because they have special safety locks. So we have to use Dojo Research to build new ones without any safety locks

Obviously this explanation shouldn't work for Grineer weapons too, but it's the best explanation we're going to get

Um... no you can't! That's exactly WHY I keep arguing that Prime Blueprints and non-Prime Blueprints are distinct and separate in the lore as well as the game

But we don't get the Vitruvian until after the part I'm talking about. Ordis gives you an "Umbra Blueprint" BEFORE you get the Vitruvian

You know I feel all this arguing is pointless. I don't think even DE knows their own lore anymore. Hiding it as "mystery" when they really don't know what is which anymore.

If the primes are in fact seperate, there's a plot hole with why Parvos would be having a none prime of the warframe when the primes exist. Parvos is also influencial to the Orokin empire. If Ordis was honored enough to the point of getting promoted to an Orokin; I think it's fair to assume the founder of Corpus would have to. The Orokins being one of the richest most influencial race would have enough to build more primes than the tennos have.

If they are in fact withered versions of the Primes. Protea has still been stuck in time. Suggesting she was never a Prime to begin with. Like the relics, and Umbra's cage. She too was preserved in time.

If the none primes did came first, DE should've confirmed it. But while DE still hasn't officially retcon it, we assume the Primes came first. And if the Primes did came first, Titania that we dug should've been a Prime. If any frames were none primes, it would've been her guardians.

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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

So we can tell this is, in fact, the Orokin Era, even if the words "Orokin Era" don't show up [...] And the fragment is of a not-Prime. Drussus makes it clear, that in a late Orokin-era dig, he's finding not-Primes.

You're confusing yourself. The quote you gave to establish the era comes from the Gauss Leverian, but the Gauss part was in the Grendel Leverian, and Drusus says he found it at the City of Riddah.

"After the fall of the Orokin Empire, a surviving Orokin Executor - a violet-scented brute named Karishh - lorded over Europa's frozen, famine-struck city of Riddha."

After the fall of the Empire, the Tenno lost access to the Orokin resources needed to repair/replace their Orokin-made Prime Warframes. So finding a Tenno-made Guass part at the site of a post-Empire Tenno operation is not anachronistic.

More problematic is the Akarius sidearms Drusus claims were "pulled from Altra's outer ring of blastcrete bunkers". These are not Prime weapons. Assuming the Akarius to be derivatives of an Orokin-made Akarius Prime, it does seem odd that a Warframe serving the Orokin during the Orokin era should be armed with non-Orokin knockoffs...

But Altra was a victory for the Orokin, so it also seems dubious that after the fortress was reclaimed, a pair of pistols was just left lying around for several centuries.

I take leave to doubt the provenance of these exhibits. Unlike the Gauss part from Riddah, Drusus does not claim to have found the Akarius himself. I hope he didn't pay too much for them! 😁

Drusus' credentials as an historian/archaeologist are not given, and he strikes me as more an enthusistic amateur than a rigourous scholar.

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2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

In Rhino Prime codex, we see an individual I will call Rhino X. Rhino X is animated and very violent, lashing out at everything he sees. Rhino X a Warframe, that cannot be controlled by a lowercase-o operator, and capital-O Operators don't exist yet because all the Z-kids are in a stasis morgue.

And Rhino X becomes passive when Davis leads him into the room where the Z-kids are kept in stasis.

Davis says "No one would have believed me", and predicts "big, fat promotions."

Implication; prior to that moment, it was not known or even suspected by the Orokin working with them that the Warframes could be contolled by the Z-kids.

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Excalibur Umbra is also a Warframe. Excalibur Umbra is also animated and very violent, lashing out at everything he sees.

All the Warframes were. But prior to the episode descibed in the Rhino Codex, it was not known that the Z-kids could passify and control them.

However, this was known at the time of Excalibur Umbra's creation, as per the Ballas quote I proved above.

Ergo: Rhino X predated Excal Umbra.

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8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Our scanning capabilities are so powerful, that if we scan a Prime we get a Prime

I mean look at how we scanned Excalibur Umbra. We scanned his SCARF, and we got this Umbra Blueprint. Keep in mind, the blueprint very clearly states "Umbra" BEFORE we get the Vitruvian. So your entire theory of "Ordis automatically turns damaged or incomplete Prime blueprints into non-Prime blueprints because he doesn't have Orokin-era components" doesn't hold water (unless you're going to say that Umbras are soooooooo inferior compared to Primes). I will not entertain it as an argument or theory, I'm sorry to say

Nope. Umbra comes out of the Arsenal with his helmet broken. That wouldn't be the case if it was created new in the Foundry.

Conclusion: although in-game we just scan the remains, in fact they must have been retrieved, and Excalibur Umbra crafted from the parts.

There's no other way to explain the busted helmet.

Edit: in-game we don't pick up his "scarf" either, but I sincerely doubt we crafted a tattered rag in our Foundry.

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23 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Can't remember anything from the Second Dream that's hinting he would be a Warframe.
And his body is just outdated. DE still hasn't reworked it.
If you go by your logic about the looks, then we could also say that Liches are Warframes because of the abilities...

Not just abilities but the cutscenes from the second dream

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38 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

It's talking about Warframes in general. Nothing in this quote is about Umbras specifically.
All we know so far is that Excal Umbra was made by Ballas without anyone else knowing about it. A rogue Warframe.
So we actually don't have any information if there are more Umbras or not.

That was the bit taken from the Wiki page for Excalibur Umbra, which is possibly from The Sacrifice. It is the process used to create Umbra.

So, not just any warframe.

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24 minutes ago, (XB1)TheRShadow said:

Second dream... Hunhow literally implies it multiple times. Also how do you explain him looking like a more evil excalibur and having warframe powers? Also remember that he has acolytes aswell and they look like the other warframes aswell. He's also got that specter voice like protea and the rail specters, same goes for his acolytes

Can't remember anything from the Second Dream that's hinting he would be a Warframe.
And his body is just outdated. DE still hasn't reworked it.
If you go by your logic about the looks, then we could also say that Liches are Warframes because of the abilities...

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There were only a few Prime warframes in the orokin era. Given Umbra's origin, and the sylistic similarities between Umbra and Primes, it's likely that the Primes are also Dax (or some other kind of) soldiers that were turned into warframes.

This couldn't be done on a large scale, as you'd need to kill thousands or millions of your soldiers to create enough prime warframes for the tenno to use.

Instead, they used generic biological matter, or cloning, or some other process to create the normal warframes. Whatever type of human was used to make these frames were not strong Dax warriors used to make the Umbra and Prime frames, and are therefore weaker warframes.

They likely just pawned off a bog standard Protea to Granum to keep him happy, as the Primed Protea (as of the moment, we have never seen two primes of the same type during the orokin era, I believe, so it's up in the air whether there are one or multiple of each prime) would be too valuable an asset to give away.

 

There's a few points in the rest of the thread that I disagree with. One of them being that the Primes were not the first warframes, and that the normal frames came first.

In Ballas' Vitruvian, he speaks about the process of creating the Warframes. Here's the quote in question:

"We took our greatest, volunteers or not, and polluted them with these cultured reagents."

How exactly do you improve on the best possible test subjects? You don't. The first warframes were primes. They were the perfect test subjects, given the full attention of Ballas and his scientists. Of course they were the most powerful versions. The later, normal, warframes were mass produced at cost-cutting quality. A good analogy would be the spartans from the Halo series. There were 30 Spartan IIs, given a huge amount of money and time to perfect. Then came the Spartan IIIs, who numbered in the hundreds and were made quickly and cutting corners. The Spartan IIs were better.

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@OmegaVoid I reject basically all of your claims as you editorializing

Let's start with the Umbras. I will admit it's a mess, because 90% of the quest is showing us "this is the first Warframe! He was created to fight the Sentients and he broke control so Ballas just tossed him aside until the Z-kids were unlocked, and then the Z-kids managed to control him through empathy." And then you have Ballas who alternates between taunts he said in the past and taunts he is saying in the present. And yes, I know for a fact that's what he is doing, because the Vitruvian is an after-action report made YEARS after Excalibur Umbra was created, and Ballas is continuing to taunt Excal Umbra outside of the flashback scenes. The flashbacks are a combination of old and new

Umbra was the first

But you know what's not a mess? Titania. Sylvania tells you to your face that the not-Prime Titania you have spent the entire quest digging out of the ground and use as blueprints is the same Titania she personally created with her own hands

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@OmegaVoid Well since you insist: Timestamp 43:45. Glast explicitly says the Myconians, not us and not himself, are wagering Nidus. And he explicitly says that it dates back to the Old War. And the game itself explicitly says that it is NOT Nidus Prime

This is definitive proof, even if it's just to satisfy gameplay restrictions, that non-Primes and Primes existed concurrently

I do retract my statement about the curb stomp though. I have rethought that specific argument and realized it doesn't hold water

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On 2020-06-14 at 6:36 AM, WhiteMarker said:

And since when is Stalker a Warframe?
Which bit of Lore gave us this information? óÒ

As has already been said in this thread, Hunhow strongly implies so in the Second Dream:

On 2020-06-14 at 7:39 AM, iLightning13 said:

"All your dread-long life, you've waited for this moment. But you're asking yourself, 'Was I one of these wretched things?' You know the answer. You still hate them. You still hate yourself."

But in addition, the Lotus puts the nail in the coffin:

"Within the Moon lies the Reservoir, the secret to your Tenno power. But the secret is dangerous, it drove the Stalker to madness. Forgive my deception, I was only trying to protect you from the same fate."

So the Stalker learned a secret that drove him mad.  And Lotus thought that same secret could drive you mad.  So either this secret is terrible, or you have something in common with the Stalker.

So first, what's the secret?  It's that Tenno aren't actually Warframes, that they are magical kids controlling Warframes.  If you're not a Tenno, this might be a surprising, but it's not going to come close to driving you insane.

But if you are a Tenno, then that's very different, isn't it?  Because here all this time, you had no idea you were a sleepy child remote-controlling a Warframe from thousands of miles away with brain magic, did you?  That's a pretty big twist about your own identity, something you probably would have thought yourself to be an expert on.  It makes perfect sense that learning this truth about yourself could have negative effects on one's psyche and grip on reality.

So Occam's Razor says that the Stalker is a Tenno.

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8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

There's a difference between "exaggerating what the player can do" and "lying to the player about the story". You would also have to say Glast Gambit quest is non-canon, because it also says that Nidus not-Prime existed in the Old War

(actually that's a bad example, since 80% of that quest is terrible anyway)

How are you certain it's a None Prime? Or if any of the quest frames a none Prime? They all have something in common, and that's being destroyed and left to wither. The Primes we have are preserved in time via relics. The only other type is Umbra who only recently got destroyed and so is mostly intact.

I'm not even sure if we'll get a Nidus Prime. DE might pull a bamboozle and say, his actually not a real warframe. Nidus looks more like a Prototype of a Warframe.

Out of all the examples you could've given, you gave the shakiest and most confusing example. All we know from Glast Gambit is that the Strain used on Nidus is the same strain mixed with the Myconians. No details about Nidus himself.

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2 hours ago, Genitive said:

Proposing the existence of another prototype that isn't mentioned anywhere else nor is present in the game is overcomplicating. Simple answers are usually better. Original comment I replied to proposed Occam's razor and I think it fits this instance. You either go with Odonata being first, or you propose a bunch of new stuff to justify your interpretation of the lore.

Of course what I wrote is an assumption, but so is having another prototype.

If what you wrote is an assumption, then it is invalidated as evidence supporting your claim, which was stated as if it was a fact.

The existence of another prototype is not overcomplicating - in fact, it fits perfectly with your own claim that technology is progressively iterated upon. About the Occam's Razor ping-pong: if the prototype really is the non-Prime Odonata, why is it not named as such?

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb sonyseva6055:

In the web-tease for the sacrifice quest you could see that umbra was nicknamed 8th meaning there are 7 more umbras before him

 

vor 34 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)ShadowBlood89:

nekrosing a nearly 1 year old topic

And an on top outdated info, they wanted to make more Umbras but scratched that idea really quick, like many things DE plans sadly. A lot not makes the cut or gets forgotten and buried and never touched again. I would today not rely on anything people see, hear or get told by them now, I used to love this game, but my love tuned down after several updates and questionable choices about things like gameplay and story.

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3 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

-snip-

The bodyguards of Orokin executors being considered 'low'? Never in a billion years. The Seven are the most powerful, most revered Orokin (with the exception of the Emperor, if there even is one). Anybody guarding them would never be considered low. Glory would come first, and then the 'honour' of guarding the executors.

Also, why would the bodyguards of The Seven be watching the Tenno kill them from a distance? I would assume the Stalker's origin doesn't involve him missing his alarm clock and being late to the ceremony.

As to whether or not the Stalker was a warframe at the time, it could still go either way for me. The codex entry suggests a lot of detachment from the Tenno - nothing about "ahh you betrayed me ya silly geese" or much to suggest a personal connection to the Tenno.

For me, he could be either a Tenno, a Warframe, or a regular human who turned himself into a warframe. The Second Dream contradicts stuff from the Codex entry and vice versa. That's the lovely reality of layers of retconned lore. I personally think the third option is more interesting, as we haven't had much of a look at the civilian perspective of Orokin rule, and their indoctrination of the masses. If there ever was an expansion of his story, I'd be interested in that route more than the others.

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1 hour ago, OmegaVoid said:

Unproven. Ordis speaks of scanning the Grove; if the blueprints are the result of his scanning the original Titania's remains, we have no Prime parts to use, even if the Warframe destroyed there was the Prime.

In the past I had always found the "what if Titania Prime degraded?" to be iffy. Then the devs made that cinematic trailer, which shows that Warframes really don't biodegrade. It more or less confirms that yes, there were no Prime parts in the Grove because it wasn't a Titania Prime to begin with. So unless you're accusing Ordis or Sylvania of deliberately omitting the Prime parts...

39 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

It's always been assumed Ballas is speaking of Margulis. (Though maybe the devs will throw us another curve-ball and reveal him to have been referring to someone else entirely. 😆)

While in The Silver Grove transcripts, Sylvana says: "My childhood dream has become a nightmare. I don't blame Margulis, she's as much a victim as the children we're working with. At first, the project seemed therapeutic and nurturing. I was myself. But now... Transference therapy is being turned into a weapon. Now I build these vile weapons called "Warframes" all for one purpose: death. I've become everything I hate."

The use of the present tense re. Margulis indicates she was still alive when the Tenno had become the Warframes' Operators.

That's why if Margulis' demise was the catalyst for Ballas' betrayal, the confrontation with the Dax who discovered that betrayal must have taken place after the Warframes were created.

Of course if Ballas turns out not to have been speaking of Margulis, I'll need to reassess things. Oh what a tangled web! 🤣

This is a good point. Like I said earlier, Ballas and his monologue is all over the place in that quest in terms of the timeline, and now it seems he can't even pin down exactly when Margulis actually died. Then again, by their own admission, Neither can the devs.

In fact I think we should have just asked Steve this whole time whether Excal Umbra came from early or late in the Old War

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23 minutes ago, Vedlom said:

Good God this is the result of people getting their lore from things such as StallorD and DKDiamantes.

I don't know who those people are. I drew my conclusion from the game itself, which tells you absolutely, without a single Shadow of a doubt, that Titania not-Prime, Protea not-Prime, and Ivara not-Prime all came first. Prime's came second, this is not up for debate

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Unstar:

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting here.  I don't think Alad V experimenting on a Warframe that he captured in any way implies that Warframe was the first of it's kind that was created?  Perhaps I'm missing what you're trying to say.

Because it was said that the torture formed her abilitys, the torture left her in that crazy state, while Deluxe suppoed to be what she looked before but would also mean other abilitys, same for Prime.

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8 hours ago, Marine027 said:

Tell that Valkyr, how you explain her and her Deluxe then

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting here.  I don't think Alad V experimenting on a Warframe that he captured in any way implies that Warframe was the first of it's kind that was created?  Perhaps I'm missing what you're trying to say.

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1 hour ago, Ender140 said:

Whose Gersemi and where did you get that info?

Edit: Found it and it's a skin... not sure what I would classify a skin as

The devs confirmed it when they released it: Gersemi Valkyr is a recreation of what Valkyr not-Prime looked like before Alad captured her

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48 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Our scanning capabilities are so powerful, that if we scan a Prime we get a Prime

I mean look at how we scanned Excalibur Umbra.

Come to it, there's also the fact that Excalibur Umbra was made off-the-books.

It's questionable whether Ballas could have used the regular facility to make the 'frame without somebody saying "Uh, this one wasn't scheduled. Who's the host?"

I don't think Ballas would have wanted to compromise on Umbra's construction (indications are Umbra was a potential ace-in-the-hole if Ballas' deal with the Sentients went sour), but keeping Umbra's existance a secret from the Orokin might possibly have necessitated it.

It is at least a possibility. I note in passing that he is not "Excalibur Umbra Prime". (Though such does exist in the Chinese build. Is stuff from that build canon?  🤔)

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6 hours ago, Vedlom said:

Why do you not provide proof for that already?

Most people who argue this with me are like anti-vaxxers: they don't want the evidence, they just want to poke holes in the evidence. I have been over this debate THREE TIMES, and every time I have had this debate the evidence and the conclusion don't change: the Umbras came first and the Primes came last

If you REALLY want the evidence, look at the quests in this order:

Silver Grove. Sylvania built Titania, NOT Titania Prime. This is stated directly to your face. Titania Not-Prime is "My Titania", the first Titania built, those are Sylvania's words to your face; there is no room in either the text or the subtext for any other conclusion

Ivara Leverian. The entire tale was a first-hand account by a contemporary witness, a man called Porvis. Thus we know from a first-hand witness that Ivara Not-Prime went through the trial, and Ivara Not-Prime was judged worthy of existing. Only then was Ivara Prime built

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@OmegaVoid Actually, let me explain this in a different way. Let's start with a piece of evidence we both agree exists and both agree predates the concept of Tenno: the Rhino Prime codex

In Rhino Prime codex, we see an individual I will call Rhino X. Rhino X is animated and very violent, lashing out at everything he sees. Rhino X a Warframe, that cannot be controlled by a lowercase-o operator, and capital-O Operators don't exist yet because all the Z-kids are in a stasis morgue.

Excalibur Umbra is also a Warframe. Excalibur Umbra is also animated and very violent, lashing out at everything he sees. Excalibur Umbra also cannot be controlled by a lowercase-o operator, and did not have a capital-O Operator until the end of the quest

I draw the only conclusion possible: that Rhino X is an Umbra. And by extension, that Umbras predate the very concept of Tenno

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