Why did parvos not get a prime protea?

[(XBOX)Cyrex XIII]

Parvos made a deal with the orokin and gained protea as a bodyguard but why isnt she a prime version of her? 

[Genitive]

3 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

And who says the "first Archwing prototype" was the Odonata we acquire in the Archwing quest? That's just an assumption.

 

2 hours ago, Transformau5 said:

This proves the existence of a prior prototype; it does not state, that the non-Prime Odonata is the prototype in question

Proposing the existence of another prototype that isn't mentioned anywhere else nor is present in the game is overcomplicating. Simple answers are usually better. Original comment I replied to proposed Occam's razor and I think it fits this instance. You either go with Odonata being first, or you propose a bunch of new stuff to justify your interpretation of the lore.

Of course what I wrote is an assumption, but so is having another prototype.

 

3 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

Why would the Corpus -- who canonically prefer energy weapons -- manufacture a ballistic rifle?

That's why I think Braton was changed to fit Tenno aesthetic; it made no sense to be a Corpus-made weapon. Of course it might as well be as you say, but in this case I think it is DE fixing a continuity error.

[OmegaVoid]

21 minutes ago, iLightning13 said:

The bodyguards of Orokin executors being considered 'low'? Never in a billion years. The Seven are the most powerful, most revered Orokin [...]. Anybody guarding them would never be considered low.

Well, the Executors themselves would not look up their bodyguards. The Orokin they talk to might pass comment on how formidable you look, and the Executor might expound how powerful you are... at first.

But as the war drags on, all you do is trail this one Executor around night and day, standing in the corner being ignored as they talk politics and have orgies or whatever the Orokin did for kicks. Nobody talks to you...

And all the time you're hearing about how all the other Warframes out there winning the war... how an entire Dax batallion struggled in vain to take down a few Sentients, then Rhino turned up killed them in a minute flat and left... how Mirage chopped up so many Sentient intruders in a Railjack the crew had to fire the body parts out of the Slingshot to clear deck space... how Excalibur was the first through the breach at Antioch, etc, etc, etc  ...while you knock about being treated like part of the furniture.

The sense of honour at being chosen would have lost its lustre fairly quickly -- especially since the bodyguard would have quickly seen exactly what the Executor does all day. Bickering and indulging in opulent luxury seems about the sum of it. Hardly edifying.

Ballas likely being an exception, but no better. He'd most probably have been distainfully telling his guardian to go wait in the next room all the damn time. Wouldn't want any witness to his shady machinations. Almost certainly wouldn't have them present while he works on creating a new Warframe, given what we know of what's involved. Wouldn't want someone watching over his shoulder thinking "that's what you did to me?!".

So here you are, one of the most formidable warriors the system has ever seen... standing in the corner, being ignored. For the whole... damn... Old War.

The position might have been a honour, putatively, but glory is won on the battlefield, and there would have been no glory for the never-needed bodyguards.

Compared to the vaunted heroes the other Tenno were, I think they'd have considered themselves "low", and felt deeply overlooked.

53 minutes ago, iLightning13 said:

The codex entry suggests a lot of detachment from the Tenno - nothing about "ahh you betrayed me ya silly geese" or much to suggest a personal connection to the Tenno.

True, but it concludes with "Now I hunt", indicating the Imprint comes from the present... which means it's taken after Shadow has lost the memory of who he really is. (Not just by my narrative, but as per the Second Dream itself.)

Like I said, my filling-in-the-blanks is just head cannon.

1 hour ago, iLightning13 said:

he could be either a Tenno, a Warframe, or a regular human who turned himself into a warframe [...] I personally think the third option is more interesting, as we haven't had much of a look at the civilian perspective of Orokin rule

From what I can tell, though, the average commoner's perspective of the Orokin would be "what a bunch of ****s",... so seeing as how Stalker is cheesed-off with the Tenno for destroying the Orokin Empire, I don't picture him as a commoner.

The tablets you get from giving coins to the Corpus Temple give Parvos Granum's perspective on the Orokin (though I consider him a biased narrator, and shifty to boot).

Turning yourself into a Warframe seems like it requires a lot expertise and specialised tech, not sure it's something a chap could just up and do. And Stalker certainly seems to have the body of a Warframe, but canonically they don't have much lucidity (even Excalibur Umbra has just that one... burning... memory), so whose mind is in it?

I mean, given the Orokin capabilities of mental manipulation, maybe Ballas took the mental imprint of a Dax guardsman and used the neuroptics to impose that mind onto the brain of one of his off-the-books Warframes. (Would that make Stalker an Umbra?) But why do such a thing? Anyone who knows enough about Warframes to make the Stalker knows how futile his crusade is, so why deliberately create him?

Stalker's origins are still really up in the air. Hunhow seems to know something, but what he knows about Warfames comes from Ballas, and Ballas can't be trusted as far as you could spit him.

[Transformau5]

2 hours ago, Genitive said:

Proposing the existence of another prototype that isn't mentioned anywhere else nor is present in the game is overcomplicating. Simple answers are usually better. Original comment I replied to proposed Occam's razor and I think it fits this instance. You either go with Odonata being first, or you propose a bunch of new stuff to justify your interpretation of the lore.

Of course what I wrote is an assumption, but so is having another prototype.

If what you wrote is an assumption, then it is invalidated as evidence supporting your claim, which was stated as if it was a fact.

The existence of another prototype is not overcomplicating - in fact, it fits perfectly with your own claim that technology is progressively iterated upon. About the Occam's Razor ping-pong: if the prototype really is the non-Prime Odonata, why is it not named as such?

[(PSN)Unstar]

8 hours ago, Marine027 said:

Tell that Valkyr, how you explain her and her Deluxe then

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting here.  I don't think Alad V experimenting on a Warframe that he captured in any way implies that Warframe was the first of it's kind that was created?  Perhaps I'm missing what you're trying to say.

[(PSN)Unstar]

To everyone who is arguing in good faith about the Odonata Prime's flavor text, I want to mention something.

Warframe is a big game.  It's complicated.  It's often sloppy.  Twists and changes happen that sometimes seem to contradict aspects of what has come before.  I would hazard that in a game like Warframe, with a scope that is more vast than its resources can truly manage, things will be missed.  New lore will work with 95% of the old lore, but in the review of the old lore 5% was overlooked, or not considered, or perhaps even purposely ignored due to resource limitations.

All of which is to say, if you focus too much on any one given sentence or statement (even moreso if it's in a non-story location like flavor text) you risk missing the forest for the trees.  The best understanding of Warframe's lore will be found not by intensely analyzing a single sentence in flavor text, but rather by comprehensively triangulating from all of the details that the entire game contains.  These will not all point in the same direction, as Warframe is imperfect as all get out.  But there will be evidence to support some claims more than others, so I would suggest that amassing more evidence is probably more helpful than nitpicking any given singular statement.  Food for thought! 🙂

[OmegaVoid]

1 hour ago, Genitive said:

You either go with Odonata being first, or you propose a bunch of new stuff to justify your interpretation of the lore. [...] Of course what I wrote is an assumption, but so is having another prototype.

You say "another prototype", but Odonata is a fully-functional weapon of war. Doesn't seem much like a prototype to me.

It actually wouldn't make sense for the Orokin to prototype a Prime using different materials and dimensions, because when they then came to create the Prime version they'd have to recalculate every tolerance. 😟

But FWIW my belief is that the flavour text was written with no particular regard for the minutiae of lore. We care slightly more than DE does. 🤣

1 hour ago, Genitive said:

That's why I think Braton was changed to fit Tenno aesthetic; it made no sense to be a Corpus-made weapon. Of course it might as well be as you say, but in this case I think it is DE fixing a continuity error.

IRL, I think the Braton was originally designed to fit aesthetically with the old Corpus Ship tilest (the oldest one in the game, I'm told). There's early footage where both players and Grineer are using Bratons, on a Corpus ship. Which nowadays looks a bit 🤪.

Early Ballistas used Snipetron models, apparently...

So it took a while for the respective factions to get their own weapon sets.

It's not a continuity error for us to use a Corpus weapon (we'll use anything, right?) but for it to be "standard Tenno issue" seems unlikely. I imagine when somebody asked "why is my starter rifle a Corpus gun, tho?" the devs just said, "oh yeah, it should probably be a Tenno gun, innit!" and presto, the Tenno make Bratons.

Which makes the Corpus-hallmarked Shock Camo Braton an anomaly which the devs probably didn't even notice, but which calls for a lore-friendly explanation. I just exercised myself to provide one.

From the devs' PoV, though, you make the cool thing, slap on some flavour text, put it in the game and move on. Thoroughly auditing every sentence for lore-compliance would be nice, but I kind of understand why it's not a priority.

[OmegaVoid]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

amassing more evidence is probably more helpful than nitpicking any given singular statement.

But I like nitpicking. 😜

Also, you mean "any given single statement". It's a common error, but "singular" means "exceptionally unusual", except when discussing grammatical cases.

Examples:
A "There is a single person in the room" -- means there is only one person.
B "There is a singular person in the room" -- means there is a very odd person, and doesn't rule out there being other people there too.
C "I could refer to the population of the room using the third person singular" -- is a rather extravagant way to say the same thing as A.

Did I mention I like nitpicking?

Also, I think we're derailing the thread a bit. My apologies to the OP.

[Genitive]

5 minutes ago, Transformau5 said:

If what you wrote is an assumption, then it is invalidated as evidence supporting your claim, which was stated as if it was a fact.

Sure, fair enough. When I look at this particular text, I immediately make a connection. Both are in the game, one is a superior version of the other. The conclusion is that non-prime version is the prototype. As I said before, simple answers are usually better. I don't feel like I want to argue over a single line of text.

 

I went through all the prime weapons description and a lot of them describe prime weapons as perfected versions of their standard counterparts, or ornamental weapons. This would support general idea that non primes were made first. However, there are two weapons that don't follow this general trend – Ankyros Prime and Tiberon Prime. So there you have it, you might be right after all. Or it is just inconsistent mess.

[(PSN)Unstar]

37 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

Also, you mean "any given single statement". It's a common error, but "singular" means "exceptionally unusual", except when discussing grammatical cases.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/singular

Definition #4 🙂

[OmegaVoid]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/singular

Definition #4 🙂

Eh, new to me. I'll give you that, then 🙂

Some dictionaries don't list that usage at all.

Hmm, https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/singular lists that usage "existing apart from others; separate; individual" under American English as "archaic".

Perhaps it's making a comeback. But forsooth, I'd be a malapert to object to the occasional archaism, anyway. 😆

[TARINunit9]

7 hours ago, Transformau5 said:

Absolutely false. Nowhere is it stated that the non-Primes preceded their Prime counterparts. 

Yeah, absolutely nowhere, except for absolutely everywhere. All of the dialogue, all the pictures, everything

[Marine027]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Unstar:

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting here.  I don't think Alad V experimenting on a Warframe that he captured in any way implies that Warframe was the first of it's kind that was created?  Perhaps I'm missing what you're trying to say.

Because it was said that the torture formed her abilitys, the torture left her in that crazy state, while Deluxe suppoed to be what she looked before but would also mean other abilitys, same for Prime.

[OmegaVoid]

2 hours ago, Marine027 said:

Because it was said that the torture formed her abilitys

Where? Codex lore for Valkyr:

"Forged in the labs of the Zanuka project, the original Valkyr was subject to cruel experiments, leaving her scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing."

Okay, so...

"...angry and frighteningly adept at killing." captures the spirit of the 'frame, but there's more flavour than lore here: "adept at killing" is de rigeur for a Warframe, and "angry" can only refer to the state of mind of the host, which is understandable since she was probably conscious through all the getting hacked up, but doesn't seem very relevant to when a Tenno is controlling the 'frame anyway.

Alad V could not have modified her Warframe abilities (as they are enabled by Void energy, which during The Second Dream Alad himself admits he never understood the tech for) and the text does not claim that he did.

Do you have a canon quote which specifically says Valkyr's abilities were the result of Alad V's experimentation?

[nerfinator6]

On 2020-07-19 at 8:01 AM, Vedlom said:

Dear lord the amount of pseudolore in here and just blatant misinformation attempting to pass headcanons as lore is staggering.

The Primes ARE the original, first frames. Umbra was an one-off variant created either directly by Ballas or under his orders, but considering that he ran the Warframe/platform project, it is irellevant. The normal frames were most definitely not the first to be created - hell, even the word Prime itself tells you first - as the Tenno spent decades, centuries and millennia fighting, their original Prime frames experienced significant wear and tear (even with their extreme regenerative capabilities as demonstrated by Umbra, there is more to the frames than simple flesh/technocyte), which could certainly be replaced or repaired using the original machinery that constructed them. However a Synthesis entry clearly states that all Orokin machines were biometrically locked, meaning that without the proper DNA (which's owners are long, long dead or otherwise departed) you have absolutely no chance of activating them.
So they had to compensate with subpar technology on their own without the original parts and blueprints used in their construction and if any was used, they had to make do with significantly degraded parts and schematics. Imagine rebuilding a car from nothing but scraps that you find in a totaled wreck - that should give you a good idea of why quest frames are not Primes. Doubly so in Parvos' case as the "Protea" we see there is naught but a heavily degraded spectre. In this case a "totaled wreck" would be generous, it is more akin to rebuilding it from pictures of said wreck.
I shall invoke Occam's Razor to explain why the starter frames are not primes - for gameplay purposes. As for an actual explanation, we really have no clue when our (the story's main character per se;) Warframe was placed in a cryopod. We are well aware that many Tenno remained awake after the Slaughter at Terminus during the fall to chase down loose ends and such - be it some warlord or an escaped Executor. So it is quite possible that we were placed after a few decades or centuries had already elapsed. Which would once again require repair.

The Primes are rediscoevered as new Orokin ships, towers, data caches and such are found and the original templates, blueprints and parts for them are found in them. The same applies to every Prime weapon and as far as we know, nigh every if not outright every Tenno weapon (and some Corpus ones as well; if I recall correctly Braton-MK1 or Braton were implied to be Corpus weapons reverse engineered from the Braton Prime itself) was reverse engineered from Orokin/Prime weaponry.

Here is Rebecca's answer to the argument of original warframes: https://youtu.be/JGYjJtmUqhI?t=524
(You will notice that Steve hesitates to answer - as to avoid spoilers for the Sacrifice.)

And the Guardsman synthesis entry excerpts:
 

Now, onto the lament of some of the most misinformative nonsense to grace this thread:

Good God this is the result of people getting their lore from things such as StallorD and DKDiamantes.


 

[Citation needed.]
 

Based on what source, exactly? As far as we know from story points (most prominetly The Chains of Harrow), every Operator each had a single frame tailored to them (the recurring line "Dream not of who you are, but of what you want to be." goes here), otherwise what consequence would there be to frames dying as we clearly see in quests? Simply swap into a new one! Your frame is lost somewhere or otherwise captured? Merely hop into a new one and go fetch your old one.

 Someone is disregarding the lore on the matter it seems. Have a read through the Vitruvian logs to find your missing links. 

Now if a Tenno betrays the Orokin in favour of her new master, just exactly why would they create an enhanced version of it? You know, of the frame they sent an entire Warframe squad after her master and herself.


 

This has got to be the biggest [CITATION NEEDED.] that I have ever seen.
Not only is there absolutely nothing to support your theory - beyond anecdotal evicence applying mere cosmetic items that have no lore to false/nonexistent lore, but you are outright contradicting every other Prime weapon and frame's description as it does not fit your narrative. I shall not even bother to dissect the rest of the nonsense that you wrote.


Most of this thread is just a cacophonous cascade of misconceptions snowballing into misinformation and from there into ridiculous headcanons and blatant lies.

>complains about pseudolore

>writes his own fanfic

[Vedlom]

On 2020-07-20 at 2:40 AM, nerfinator6 said:

>complains about pseudolore

>writes his own fanfic

Yeah? Point out the fanfic part where I did not clearly state that it was speculation or conjecture on my part.
Also nice greentext ebinlord.

 

On 2020-07-19 at 9:57 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah, absolutely nowhere, except for absolutely everywhere. All of the dialogue, all the pictures, everything

Why do you not provide proof for that already? Everything you have been parroting throughout the entire thread has been nothing but false nonsense.
This is just a single shred of proof, but if you were to bother to actually research and back up your statements you would quickly conclude that they are untrue as everything is laden with enough proof contrary to yours. Really, just click on the link I posted earlier to get a confirmation from the devs themselves. But would that not count as it is not in the game?
@Genitive You might also wish to take a look at this, the weapon descriptions were a crux of your argument as well.

I also came across this; https://www.warframe.com/news/primes-and-prime-access

Quote

Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are actual pieces of Ancient Orokin technology. These elite intricately gilded items have highly advantageous qualities and feature added polarity slots – allowing you to equip more powerful Mods and saving space in your MOD Capacity.

Non-Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are based on Orokin technology, however they are not genuine Orokin articles.

Would that be considered conclusive proof enough, or have you more to add?

[Genitive]

3 hours ago, Vedlom said:

You might also wish to take a look at this, the weapon descriptions were a crux of your argument as well.

Yes, I noticed it later, when I was looking at prime descriptions. Burston Prime is like that, too.

 

3 hours ago, Vedlom said:

Would that be considered conclusive proof enough, or have you more to add?

No, not really. Things are not consistent enough to convince me. But I guess it doesn't really matter that much.

[TARINunit9]

6 hours ago, Vedlom said:

Why do you not provide proof for that already?

Most people who argue this with me are like anti-vaxxers: they don't want the evidence, they just want to poke holes in the evidence. I have been over this debate THREE TIMES, and every time I have had this debate the evidence and the conclusion don't change: the Umbras came first and the Primes came last

If you REALLY want the evidence, look at the quests in this order:

Silver Grove. Sylvania built Titania, NOT Titania Prime. This is stated directly to your face. Titania Not-Prime is "My Titania", the first Titania built, those are Sylvania's words to your face; there is no room in either the text or the subtext for any other conclusion

Ivara Leverian. The entire tale was a first-hand account by a contemporary witness, a man called Porvis. Thus we know from a first-hand witness that Ivara Not-Prime went through the trial, and Ivara Not-Prime was judged worthy of existing. Only then was Ivara Prime built

[OmegaVoid]

7 hours ago, Vedlom said:

I also came across this; https://www.warframe.com/news/primes-and-prime-access

Quote

Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are actual pieces of Ancient Orokin technology. These elite intricately gilded items have highly advantageous qualities and feature added polarity slots – allowing you to equip more powerful Mods and saving space in your MOD Capacity.

Non-Prime Warframes, Weapons and Sentinels are based on Orokin technology, however they are not genuine Orokin articles.

Would that be considered conclusive proof enough, or have you more to add?

"Non-Prime Warframes [...] are not genuine Orokin articles" clinches it for me. Thank you for that reference.

@TARINunit9 Consider the Vauban Prime trailer; Ballas concludes with "For your consideration... Vauban."

That's Vauban Prime he's talking about, but he does not say "Vauban Prime", because the term "Prime" at that time had no reason to exist.

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Silver Grove. Sylvania built Titania, NOT Titania Prime. This is stated directly to your face. Titania Not-Prime is "My Titania", the first Titania built, those are Sylvania's words to your face; there is no room in either the text or the subtext for any other conclusion

To say it is "stated directly to your face" that the Titania Sylvana had a hand in creating was not Titainia Prime is false. It is merely not stated directly that she is.

It would have been an anachronism for Sylvana to call her "Titania Prime". There was no reason for the term "Prime" to have yet been coined to distinguish the Orokin-made Warframes from non-Orokin copies. Titania Prime (literally "the first Titania") would at the time have been called simply "Titania".

The conviction that not having "Prime" appended to the name means the Warframe is categorically not a Prime is unfounded, so there is in fact plenty of room in the text and its background to suppose that the Titania referred to was the Prime -- and in light of the reference Vedlom has provided, the speculation that she might not have been is now looking extremely untenable.

On 2020-06-14 at 3:00 PM, Dhrekr said:

Think of the Silver Grove, where an Orokin-era Archimedian [...] protects the Silver Grove with specters of non-Prime Loki, non-Prime Oberon, and non-Prime Saryn.

Those Spectres are in fact the Knave, Orphid, and Feyarch versions of the Warfames in question: alternative armour sets, not the post-Orokin armour of the non-Prime 'frames.

All this demonstrates is that the design of those alternative armour sets dated back to Orokin times, and that Loki, Oberon, and Saryn must have been created before Titania, or at least not very long after.

22 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ivara Leverian. The entire tale was a first-hand account by a contemporary witness, a man called Porvis. Thus we know from a first-hand witness that Ivara Not-Prime went through the trial, and Ivara Not-Prime was judged worthy of existing. Only then was Ivara Prime built

(Drusus attributes the tale to "'The Secret History of the Orokin Court', by the historian Porvis". Drusus says: "Porvis tells us he compiled much of this tale from overheard exchanges between members of the Seven, and details that remained consistent in courtly whispers." so Porvis is not a first-hand witness, and the story itself is hearsay -- we can believe as much of it as we wish to, but cannot consider any detail of it reliable canon. And Drusus also says "Perhaps Porvis enjoyed the telling a little too much or, perhaps, there is something to it." indicating Drusus himself has reservations as to its veracity, or that it has a least been subject to embellishment.)

There is no statement in the Leverian text that "this Ivara, by the way, was not the Prime", there is no statement "Ivara Prime had yet to be created". Your flat assertion that "Only then was Ivara Prime built" has no basis in the lore presented.

At the time the story is set, there was no non-Prime Ivara. The original (Prime) Ivara was just called "Ivara" because there were no non-Prime Ivaras for her need distinguishing from.

The term "Prime" is used only when it is desired to stipulate that the Warframe referred to is an Orokin original; where the distinction is not relevant it may be omitted for brevity, and where the 'frame in question has already been established to be Orokin-made, it may be omitted as redundant.

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

the Umbras came first

Definitely not so: Excalibur Umbra was told by Ballas during his creation that he was to be "a sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno", and the Vitruvian and Rhino Prime Codex both show that the Warframes existed before it was known that the Tenno could control them. 

Exaclibur was canonically the first Warframe. Exaclibur Umbra was not the first Warframe, and therefore not the first Excalibur. Excalibur Prime was.

[TARINunit9]

@OmegaVoid I reject basically all of your claims as you editorializing

Let's start with the Umbras. I will admit it's a mess, because 90% of the quest is showing us "this is the first Warframe! He was created to fight the Sentients and he broke control so Ballas just tossed him aside until the Z-kids were unlocked, and then the Z-kids managed to control him through empathy." And then you have Ballas who alternates between taunts he said in the past and taunts he is saying in the present. And yes, I know for a fact that's what he is doing, because the Vitruvian is an after-action report made YEARS after Excalibur Umbra was created, and Ballas is continuing to taunt Excal Umbra outside of the flashback scenes. The flashbacks are a combination of old and new

Umbra was the first

But you know what's not a mess? Titania. Sylvania tells you to your face that the not-Prime Titania you have spent the entire quest digging out of the ground and use as blueprints is the same Titania she personally created with her own hands

[TARINunit9]

@OmegaVoid Actually, let me explain this in a different way. Let's start with a piece of evidence we both agree exists and both agree predates the concept of Tenno: the Rhino Prime codex

In Rhino Prime codex, we see an individual I will call Rhino X. Rhino X is animated and very violent, lashing out at everything he sees. Rhino X a Warframe, that cannot be controlled by a lowercase-o operator, and capital-O Operators don't exist yet because all the Z-kids are in a stasis morgue.

Excalibur Umbra is also a Warframe. Excalibur Umbra is also animated and very violent, lashing out at everything he sees. Excalibur Umbra also cannot be controlled by a lowercase-o operator, and did not have a capital-O Operator until the end of the quest

I draw the only conclusion possible: that Rhino X is an Umbra. And by extension, that Umbras predate the very concept of Tenno

[OmegaVoid]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

In Rhino Prime codex, we see an individual I will call Rhino X. Rhino X is animated and very violent, lashing out at everything he sees. Rhino X a Warframe, that cannot be controlled by a lowercase-o operator, and capital-O Operators don't exist yet because all the Z-kids are in a stasis morgue.

And Rhino X becomes passive when Davis leads him into the room where the Z-kids are kept in stasis.

Davis says "No one would have believed me", and predicts "big, fat promotions."

Implication; prior to that moment, it was not known or even suspected by the Orokin working with them that the Warframes could be contolled by the Z-kids.

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Excalibur Umbra is also a Warframe. Excalibur Umbra is also animated and very violent, lashing out at everything he sees.

All the Warframes were. But prior to the episode descibed in the Rhino Codex, it was not known that the Z-kids could passify and control them.

However, this was known at the time of Excalibur Umbra's creation, as per the Ballas quote I proved above.

Ergo: Rhino X predated Excal Umbra.

[TARINunit9]

29 minutes ago, OmegaVoid said:

Ergo: Rhino X predated Excal Umbra.

At this point we are in agreement about everything except one specific plot point that you have drawn a weird conclusion on: Excalibur Umbra specifically

In all the logic I can draw, Rhino X is Rhino Umbra. We know when Rhino Umbra was built, before the Z-kids became the Tenno (we literally just agreed on that) and I look at the "Excalibur Umbra was the first Warframe ever" subtext that the Sacrifice quest is bleeding from the walls like the Krusty Krab oozes green slime. And I say "ok, so Excalibur Umbra and Rhino Umbra were the first Warframes". That is my final conclusion on Excalibur Umbra. Maybe he was just called Excalibur at the time and Umbra was appended later, but the frame we call Excal Umbra today was the first

[Urlan]

Its important to note that the Rhino in Rhino prime's codex entry is not in fact, a warframe; but a Bio-Drone; those proto-warframes that Ballas mentions the Executors ordering eliminated before moving to using Margulis and Silvana to rehabilitate us and transference into the Surrogate series designed by Silvana. Also two or so primes suggest they are the original gear in one way or another; but that still doesn't say they came first; as more primes suggest they are blinged ace customs of the normal models; as with every quest warframe that has a prime; the majority of weapons, and Sentinels like Wyrm prime. Its important to note as well, that Umbra Excalibur is being tortured and converted using a specialty strain mixed up by Helminth during the tail end of the Old War, when Ballas decided to betray his people, in fact the Old Dax is in this situation because Ballas caught him trying to provide evidence of Ballas' treachery. After being used to kill his own son, Isaah; the Old Dax was stored on Lua in a lab; which we find damaged - which in turn allowed escape - in Sacrifice, but had broken and Umbra escaped after the events of 2nd Dream and had been hitching rides to his old digs on Earth.

[OmegaVoid]

30 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

the Vitruvian is an after-action report made YEARS after Excalibur Umbra was created

No, the Vitruvian is explicitly a communiqué from Ballas to Hunhow, explaining the creation of the Warframes and the secret of the Tenno.

Excalibur Umbra was created by Ballas as a way to both eliminate and punish the old Dax friend who had discovered that betrayal. (Ballas says: "You spied on me, intercepted my communications.") Ergo Excal Umbra was created after the message preserved in the Vitruvian was transmitted.

Read the transcript, watch a playthrough of the Quest, replay it yourself. Nowhere is it stated or even implied that Excal Umbra was the first Warframe made.

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

But you know what's not a mess? Titania. Sylvania tells you to your face that the not-Prime Titania you have spent the entire quest digging out of the ground and use as blueprints is the same Titania she personally created with her own hands

We don't dig anything out of the ground during that Quest. We spend the whole time fighting the Grineer who are trying to destroy the Grove, annointing the Shrine with Apothics, and fighting the Spectres which result from that annointing.

The Titania we build after the Quest is not a Prime because we build it ourselves. We have no Orokin Relics to build a Prime from, thus we get a non-Prime Titania.

[Vedlom]

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

At this point we are in agreement about everything except one specific plot point that you have drawn a weird conclusion on: Excalibur Umbra specifically

In all the logic I can draw, Rhino X is Rhino Umbra. We know when Rhino Umbra was built, before the Z-kids became the Tenno (we literally just agreed on that) and I look at the "Excalibur Umbra was the first Warframe ever" subtext that the Sacrifice quest is bleeding from the walls like the Krusty Krab oozes green slime. And I say "ok, so Excalibur Umbra and Rhino Umbra were the first Warframes". That is my final conclusion on Excalibur Umbra. Maybe he was just called Excalibur at the time and Umbra was appended later, but the frame we call Excal Umbra today was the first

You are speculating that every infested individual - biodrone - used in the warframe project before the Zariman subjects was an Umbra. Which is extremely unfounded as the only Umbra we know of was created by Ballas himself.